India Forum Archives
Thursday, June 01, 2006
  Hindus Need To Leave The West

Posted by: mitradena Jan 28 2006, 08:14 PM

Bharatvarsh said, Why should Hindus leave Europe, they pay their taxes and contribute to society, a better thing to do is just start counterbreeding in Europe also, take UK Muslims are about 2% and Hindus probably 0.9% so there is not much difference right now so if we start counterbreeding right now then we can prevent Muslims from becoming majority and gain ourselves some new territory in Europe, yes there will be resentment from goras about Hindus also doing counterbreeding but they will prefer a Hindu majority to a Muslim majority once they see the effects of having a Muslim majority in countries like Norway and France, Hinduism is now a global religion and is no longer confined to India so Hindus have to move ahead with times. Here is why Hindus need to leave the west: 1. Hindus came to the west for money. India's economy is rising. Soon India will be such a huge economic power that there is no need for us to remain in the west. We will be able to live very comfortably in India. 2. India is the best place raise kids. Kids who grow up in America become completely screwed. I have seen this in my cousins. The west is sinking and becoming a decadent cesspool. Hindu kids have no chance of preserving traditional Hindu values in the west. 3. India is a spiritual country. India is God's own country. No other land is as spiritual as India. India is the best place for a man to contemplate on God and his own Moksha. This is after all our most important goal in life isn't it? 4. Hindus will never amount to more than a miniscule percentage of the West's population. We can never expand our territory there. 5. Many of the best and brightest leave India and settle in the west. Their kids become thoroughly westernized and screwed. We end up losing some of our best genetic material. 5. Let Islam and the Whites duke it out in the west. What do I care what happens to them? 6. Whether Hinduism becomes a global religion or not is not my concern. That is God's problem.

Posted by: Bharatvarsh Jan 28 2006, 08:28 PM

QUOTE
1. Hindus came to the west for money. India's economy is rising. Soon India will be such a huge economic power that there is no need for us to remain in the west. We will be able to live very comfortably in India.
Yes comfort with a booming Muslim population and secularisation.
QUOTE
2. India is the best place raise kids. Kids who grow up in America become completely screwed. I have seen this in my cousins. The west is sinking and becoming a decadent cesspool. Hindu kids have no chance of preserving traditional Hindu values in the west.
Which shows that either Hinduism is not strong enough to prevent Hindus from losing their identity or Hindu parents do not know enough to raise their kids properly, if Muslims can stick to their religion in this so called decadent west then why can't Hindus?, running away to India is a pathetic excuse for inability to raise the children as proud Hindus in a non Hindu majority country.
QUOTE
3. India is a spiritual country. India is God's own country. No other land is as spiritual as India. India is the best place for a man to contemplate on God and his own Moksha. This is after all our most important goal in life isn't it?
India is piece of land which became important due to Sanatana Dharma, it achieved its sacredness because of Sanatana Dharma not the other way around so if Sanatana Dharma is practiced in the West then it also sacred land, Hindus always considered all Earth (Prithvi) as sacred not just India.
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4. Hindus will never amount to more than a miniscule percentage of the West's population. We can never expand our territory there.
That is your assumption which again either shows that Hinduism is at fault or Hindus have a weak mentality since they cannot expand their territory even in times of threat to prevent the threat from becoming bigger.
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5. Many of the best and brightest leave India and settle in the west. Their kids become thoroughly westernized and screwed. We end up losing some of our best genetic material.
So Hindus don't know how to rise their kids as proud Hindus so the blame belongs on us, we are the ones who are allowing the kids to become westernized and lose their Hindu identity and what is this Genetic material crap?, I already told you before Hindus are not a race, if an Indian Hindu marries a White Hindu then I see nothing wrong with it though I personally would marry a person of Indian descent.
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5. Let Islam and the Whites duke it out in the west. What do I care what happens to them?
We should care because the next target after West falls will be Hindus.
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6. Whether Hinduism becomes a global religion or not is not my concern. That is God's problem.
So go back to India but don't expect Hindus all to go back and Hinduism is already a global religion whether it is of concern to you or not and it will not become an Indian only religion ever again even if you want it to.

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 28 2006, 08:32 PM

Here is why Hindus need to leave the west: 1. Hindus came to the west for money. India's economy is rising. Soon India will be such a huge economic power that there is no need for us to remain in the west. We will be able to live very comfortably in India. yes.. the ones amongst us whjo can get the best jobs in india. the not so bright will go west for easy money. brawn drain will give way to brain drain. 2. India is the best place raise kids. Kids who grow up in America become completely screwed. I have seen this in my cousins. The west is sinking and becoming a decadent cesspool. Hindu kids have no chance of preserving traditional Hindu values in the west. i know both types. depends on the parents and if they waqnt their kids to become indians or americans. 3. India is a spiritual country. India is God's own country. No other land is as spiritual as India. India is the best place for a man to contemplate on God and his own Moksha. This is after all our most important goal in life isn't it? israel has religion everywhere. our most important goal is to become the next japan cum china cum germany cum usa. 4. Hindus will never amount to more than a miniscule percentage of the West's population. We can never expand our territory there. we dont need to. more important will be to take over some of our lost lands. though in places like NZ, indians could soon become majority. 5. Many of the best and brightest leave India and settle in the west. Their kids become thoroughly westernized and screwed. We end up losing some of our best genetic material. being westernised isnt being screwed. i know zilch of indian music but can beat 6/10 westerners at rock and oldies. yet i am indian to the core. about indian films i know even lesser. yet i am indian to the core. being indianised isnt some crown on your head either. do you frankly rate a typical bhojpuri to be more important to the society than say a totally westernised indian, like parsees who even converse at home in english? 5. Let Islam and the Whites duke it out in the west. What do I care what happens to them? yes we should do our bit to funnel muslims abroad. push from here - pull from there. 6. Whether Hinduism becomes a global religion or not is not my concern. That is God's problem. is hinduism god made?? and does it acceot converts??

Posted by: mitradena Jan 28 2006, 09:18 PM

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Yes comfort with a booming Muslim population and secularisation.
That is why every Hindu is needed in the motherland to defend it.
QUOTE
Which shows that either Hinduism is not strong enough to prevent Hindus from losing their identity or Hindu parents do not know enough to raise their kids properly, if Muslims can stick to their religion in this so called decadent west then why can't Hindus?, running away to India is a pathetic excuse for inability to raise the children as proud Hindus in a non Hindu majority country.
It is an uphill battle to preserve Hinduism in the west. I will gave an example of America. There are 1 million Hindus here out of a population of 320 million. We are expected to reach a max of 4 million in 2050 when USA will have 420 million people. Do you think we can do anything here? Futher the new population growth is primarily among fanatically Protestant Rednecks and fanatically catholic Hispanics. America is becoming less white and more Christian. And the decline in whites is among liberals. The conservatives will increase. Which means it is headed toward a Brazil like state. Do you think it is safe for Hindus to live in Brazil like environment? Further Muslims are also in danger in the west. Their daughters are becoming increasingly westernized and decadent.
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That is your assumption which again either shows that Hinduism is at fault or Hindus have a weak mentality since they cannot expand their territory even in times of threat to prevent the threat from becoming bigger.
We can expand with our Army on our own terms.
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So Hindus don't know how to rise their kids as proud Hindus so the blame belongs on us, we are the ones who are allowing the kids to become westernized and lose their Hindu identity and what is this Genetic material crap?, I already told you before Hindus are not a race, if an Indian Hindu marries a White Hindu then I see nothing wrong with it though I personally would marry a person of Indian descent.
The Jews did a survey of their community in America. They concluded that inter-marriage with non-Jews is spelling disaster for their community in America. They say it is far worse than the Holocaust. Read the Jewish articles on this on the web. Jewish Rabbis are imploring Jews not to marry outside to save their community. 90% of the offspring of mixed marriages leave Judaism. Don't you think Hindus should learn lessons from the Jews? If a Hindu marries a white what is probability their Kids will be Hindu? What happened to Nehru's family? All his descendents become Xtians. I know of plenty of Hindu-White marriages and the kids are growing up completely screwed. Hindu girls are especially vulnerable in the west. We need to protect our daughters from moral corruption of the west. And yes what we are is determined by our genes. My appeal to you is don't marry a white woman. Marry someone from your own community. Don't abandon they way of your forefathers. Don't succumb to sex desire and given in, in a moment of weakness. Stay firm in this resolve.

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 28 2006, 09:40 PM

QUOTE(mitradena @ Jan 29 2006, 09:48 AM)
Don't succumb to sex desire and given in, in a moment of weakness. Stay firm in this resolve.
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HAHAHAHAHA....i have to ask my indian friends who married whites if this "sex desire" as you call it was the main reason or not.

Posted by: Aryawan Jan 28 2006, 09:51 PM

QUOTE(mitradena @ Jan 29 2006, 08:44 AM)
Bharatvarsh said, Why should Hindus leave Europe, they pay their taxes and contribute to society, a better thing to do is just start counterbreeding in Europe also, take UK Muslims are about 2% and Hindus probably 0.9% so there is not much difference right now so if we start counterbreeding right now then we can prevent Muslims from becoming majority and gain ourselves some new territory in Europe, yes there will be resentment from goras about Hindus also doing counterbreeding but they will prefer a Hindu majority to a Muslim majority once they see the effects of having a Muslim majority in countries like Norway and France, Hinduism is now a global religion and is no longer confined to India so Hindus have to move ahead with times. .............................. 6. Whether Hinduism becomes a global religion or not is not my concern. That is God's problem.
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I agree with you most part. Unfortunately, most Indians think of a greencard as a ticket to heaven. Sooner or later they all will be forced to look towards mother India when She will glow sweeter and brighter. Who knows what lies in future. But those who have faith in their country will look back one day. As fortunes of India change faster than any one is capable of guessing.

Posted by: Shambhu Jan 28 2006, 10:07 PM

But Hindus are needed in the West to guide the West in some policy decisions. ..and like it or not, US partly controls our enemies right now..TSP, the evangelists...and Hindus putting Witzel and co in their place is a way of showing the US that we cannot be pushed around. (This last thing may sound too grandiose, but it's impact is more than just a sideshow...)

Posted by: Bharatvarsh Jan 29 2006, 07:26 AM

QUOTE
The Jews did a survey of their community in America. They concluded that inter-marriage with non-Jews is spelling disaster for their community in America. They say it is far worse than the Holocaust. Read the Jewish articles on this on the web. Jewish Rabbis are imploring Jews not to marry outside to save their community. 90% of the offspring of mixed marriages leave Judaism. Don't you think Hindus should learn lessons from the Jews? If a Hindu marries a white what is probability their Kids will be Hindu? What happened to Nehru's family? All his descendents become Xtians. I know of plenty of Hindu-White marriages and the kids are growing up completely screwed. Hindu girls are especially vulnerable in the west. We need to protect our daughters from moral corruption of the west. And yes what we are is determined by our genes.
You really don't get it do you?, I said "An Indian Hindu marrying a White Hindu" is ok, so two Hindus are marrying, where is the question of the children becoming non Hindu (unless they are raised in a screwed up way), last time I checked the pale faced David Frawley knows much more about our scriptures and traditions than most of these Indian Hindus so obviously if marries an Indian Hindu the children will most likely turn out Hindu and much better than kids from a marriage between Angana Chatterjee and Vijay Prashad (who incidentally are made up of master race genetic material as per you).
QUOTE
My appeal to you is don't marry a white woman. Marry someone from your own community. Don't abandon they way of your forefathers. Don't succumb to sex desire and given in, in a moment of weakness. Stay firm in this resolve.
Don't worry I am not as weak minded as you and neither as racist as some Indians (who claim whites are racist but put ads for wheatish complexion in matrimonial papers and use fair and lovely at home), by the way you need to know your history better, these same forefathers you wax so eloquently about also intermarried with Ahoms and Huns and Sakas after they became Hinduised, also Chandragupta Maurya the first great Emperor India had married a yavani (Greek woman) so banging on about ancestors is not helpful. My last post on this matter, to you race is more important and to me religion is more important, I follow the Rig Vedic dictum "Krinvanto Vishvam Aryam - Make This World Noble." while you ignore the Veda (which many Hindus claim as revelation from Brahman) and follow the later day smritis which pour scorn on the mlecchas.

Posted by: agnivayu Jan 29 2006, 07:27 AM

Hindus have almost no long term future in places like France, or Italy where there is so much discrimination that Hinduism is not even recognized as a religion (Islam, Judaism, and even Buddhism are ...). Where are the bleeding heart human rights groups on this ? In the Anglo-Saxon world (U.S., U.K) there is more tolerance and understanding. If I had to take a guess, a 1000 years from now Hinduism will be extinct in most if not all western countries. (More likely to survive in tiny hamlets in the U.S., Australia, Canada because of more elbow room) During the Roman Empire, there were enclaves of Hindu settlements in Italy and other Roman provinces. The pre-Christian Romans were a tolerant people, but the early Christians were fanatical and quickly destroyed all "Pagan" religions. Europe is going to be a battleground between Islam and Europeans, Hindus will be caught in the crossfire and will either have to ally with a side or leave. I think serious European troubles won't begin until 2030, when the demographics come together (both aging Euro's and higher % of Muslims) In the short term Hindus can be fat and happy in any country in the west, but in the long term it's a different matter.

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Jan 29 2006, 10:37 AM)
But Hindus are needed in the West to guide the West in some policy decisions. ..and like it or not, US partly controls our enemies right now..TSP, the evangelists...and Hindus putting Witzel and co in their place is a way of showing the US that we cannot be pushed around. (This last thing may sound too grandiose, but it's impact is more than just a sideshow...)
*

Posted by: Shambhu Jan 29 2006, 08:35 AM

I think if we play our cards right Hindu thought will dominate Europe.. smile.gif

Posted by: agnivayu Jan 29 2006, 08:47 AM

I can see some Hindu ideas mingled in with the local Euro-Pagan / New Age religions. That might be the best outcome. If the whole world went back to ancient pre-abhrahamic religions, that would be the best deal for Hindus.

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Jan 29 2006, 09:05 PM)
I think if we play our cards right Hindu thought will dominate Europe.. smile.gif
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Posted by: Shambhu Jan 29 2006, 12:46 PM

Exactly. What has taken centuries to take root-Xtian "everyone else goes to hell" thought- has to be undone over decades. Growing Islamic exposure of Oiropeans helps Hindus.

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 29 2006, 01:06 PM

yes... more & more europeans and whites are going back to their pre-abrahamic pagan roots for the wrong reasons than the right ones. all racist sites have references to Valhalla and the hammer of Thor and other crap. master race and all that...which doesnt auger well for anyone. or maybe it does, in that when a euro dude decides to become a skin head or a NSBM musician, it means one less doctor, engineer or manager in the west. it also means that islam will hve it easy in the west - cos europeans can fight the muslims better as christians. not that they cant give muslims stick with master-race soaked brains...

Posted by: Shambhu Jan 29 2006, 01:13 PM

Reasons don't matter...if they go back to become skinheads, they will end up fighting Xtians down the road... Way I see it, more are turning to new age/goth/wicca..OK by me. Any thing that makes the majority of people more tolerant and less exclusivist. (and a fraction is going to become skinhead..unavoidable). Big problem is, majority of, say, Xtian Americans do not believe Hindus are going to hell. But they will quite naively donate to Church. And Church uses that money partly to convert. That is why I want an end to Church-belief. You individually believe in Christ, fine.

Posted by: Bharatvarsh Jan 29 2006, 01:38 PM

QUOTE
That is why I want an end to Church-belief. You individually believe in Christ, fine.
That is where Hindus go wrong, ok let us say that people lose their belief in the Church but what if tomorrow some new cult leader or revivalist emerges (such as Ayatollah Khomeni among Muslims) and shows them the verse where Jesus asks for evangelisation of the world (it does not matter that this verse is an interpolation since zealous xtians consider all Bible as true), the money will start pouring in once again and conversions will go on, as G.Sub says you can't stop conversions unless you attack the belief system of xtians, yes there will be attacks on Hindu beliefs (such as karma etc) and we should face them, its not like they are not already attacking the karma doctrine as flawed etc, they will just increase their intensity and we should also attack their beliefs and discredit them in front of Hindu eyes. Another thing I noticed Hindus do is that they try to reduce the problem of abrahamic religions to a purely territorial (national vs anti national, indigenous vs foreign) level (mitradena saying that he has no problem if Muslims go back to Arabia and Islam stays there), this is a very flawed approach that will backfire badly, I will leave it to Elst to explain:
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Unfortunately, Sangh Parivar ideologues labour under the illusion that they can leave Islam intact while removing the "anti-national" element from it. Most of them, even including the fairly radical former BJS president Balraj Madhok, have suggested that the Islam problem can be solved by "indianization": Islam has to "indianize" itself. Or as the Organiser once put it: "Let Muslims look upon Ram as their hero and the communal problems will be all over."[6] Islam, however, is a seamless garment, and it cannot be freed from its anti-Hindu doctrine while retaining its Allah and Mohammed. Muslims cannot look upon Rama as "their" hero without ceasing to be Muslims. The term "indianization" implies that the problem with Islam is its un-Indianness. And this, in turn, would imply a nationalistically distorted view of religion: that a nation should only follow native traditions and shun foreign contributions in religion. By such standards, the adoption of Hinduism or Buddhism by the peoples of East and Southeast Asia would not be a matter of pride (as it seems to be for the Sangh) but a violation of the proper world order. The Khmers should have rejected Shiva and built their Angkor temple to some native deity; the Balinese should not enact the Ramayana but create an epic around a native hero instead. The "holyland" of many East-Asian Buddhists is not their own country, but India: the Mahabodhi temple was renovated in the 19th century by the king of Burma, and is now surrounded by guest-houses catering to many thousands of pilgrims from each Buddhist country every year. Should we deduce that these Thai or Japanese pilgrims are being "anti-national" by having such "extra-territorial" religious loyalty? And that the Mongolian and Chinese Communists were right to crack down on Buddhism? That would be the implication if we start reducing religions to their geographical provenance instead of studying their contents. In this case, patriotism is not the refuge of scoundrels, but of duffers. This futile attempt to identify the Islam problem in terms of "Indian" vs. "foreign" implies a second similarity with certain undesirable xenophobic trends in the West. Semi-literate xenophobic ideologues in Europe identify Islam as "a foreign religion, fit for Asiatics but not for Europe". In their opinion, there is nothing wrong with Islam, as long as it remains in its country of origin. This is not too different from the applause given in Hindutva publications to Anwar Shaykh's thesis that "Islam is the Arab national movement". In his book Islam, the Arab National Movement, the Pakistan-born apostate author from Cardiff (with a death-warrant fatwa on his head since 1994) accurately documents how islamization has meant external arabization (names, clothes, script) for most converted populations, but wrongly infers that Islam is a form of Arab nationalism or Arab imperialism. For the Sangh, this thesis was doubly welcome: it recast the Islam problem in the familiar, safely secular-sounding terms of nationalism, and it legitimized Islam ("See we're not against Islam?") all while limiting its legitimate geographical domain so as to exclude India from it. The implication is that Hinduism is Indian nationalism, and Islam is Arab nationalism. This is grossly unjust to the Arabs and the native Arab culture which Islam destroyed. There is nothing Arab about Islam, a doctrine confabulated by Mohammed from half-digested bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian lore, combined with his own extraordinary self-image and the hallucinations registered on his sensory nerves (the Quranic voice he "heard"). Except for a small minority of people attracted to Mohammed out of gullibility or lust for booty and power, the Arabs were only forced under the yoke of Islam after valiantly resisting it. For the sake of comparison, Communism was not the "Chinese national movement" just because Chairman Mao's Communists militarily wrested the country from the legitimate Nationalist Government of Chiang Kai-shek. The genuine Arab national movement was the so-called Ridda ("return" to god-pluralism) uprising against the Islamic state after Mohammed's death, in which the Arabs tried to restore their pluralistic culture.[7] http://www.bharatvani.org/books/bjp/section14.html
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The case against Islam is not limited to its record of intolerance, aggression, persecution and barbarity. Quite apart from its violent self-righteousness and its anti-national attitudes, Islam is reprehensible for the more fundamental and more universal reason that it is not true. Most ancient religious traditions are not based on belief systems, e.g. though the theory of reincarnation has gained widespread popularity among Hindus, there is no law which excludes non-believers in reincarnation from the Hindu fold. Religions like Shinto or Taoism consist in a set of practices and ritual or ethical conventions, established as a practical framework of life within which people can exercise their freedom to seek spiritual upliftment; they are not based on a belief system. In contrast to these ancient communal religions, Christianity and Islam make a truth claim which is non-provable but must nonetheless be accepted and will be enforced with grim punishments in this world and the next.[3] It is meaningless to talk about these creedal religions without evaluating their central truth claims. http://www.bharatvani.org/books/bjp/section20.html
Afterall the even if the law of gravity was discovered by a pale face in far off Europe it is still applicable in India isn't it? and that is the reason it is universally accepted (because it is true), consequently if Islam and Christianity are true (which they are not) then there is no reason not to embrace them.

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 29 2006, 01:48 PM

er. shambhu.. i can assure you that a lot more whites are chucking christianity for pre x-ian religions - for RACIAL and white supremacist reasons, than for some realisation about abrahamic folly or some new found respect for their ethnic religions.

Posted by: Bharatvarsh Jan 29 2006, 02:02 PM

QUOTE
er. shambhu.. i can assure you that a lot more whites are chucking christianity for pre x-ian religions - for RACIAL and white supremacist reasons, than for some realisation about abrahamic folly or some new found respect for their ethnic religions.
That may be true for US but not Europe, Elst deals with this in the following article "Hindus and Neo Paganism":
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Xenophobia : Alternatively, some neo-Pagan ideologues reject any input from Asian or other traditions. In the Netherlands, the late Noud van den Eerenbeemt, a Germanic heathen, used to teach something he called “Runic yoga”, meaning a series of body postures imitating the shapes of the old Germanic alphabet signs or Runes. I think this was a bit silly, as Hatha-yogic postures are designed to produce certain effects in the energetics of the body, not to impersonate certain visual shapes. However, some heathens rejected it for a wholly different reason: yoga is a non-European invention, hence “unfit for European people”. They were apparently unaware that the Runic alphabet itself was once imported from the south, and that the Indo-European languages themselves, and the religious lore they carried, were once imported from the East: at least from Russia, according to the dominant theory, or perhaps even from Afghanistan or India. Those are the people who reject Christianity on grounds of its foreign origin: an “Asian religion unfit for Europeans”, just like Hinduism. That is wholly mistaken: if Christianity was an erroneous belief system, it was erroneous even for people in its countries of origin, just as Islam was initially rejected even by the compatriots of the Prophet, the Arabs. Conversely, if Christianity is true, it stands to reason that we should all drop our ancestral religion and embrace Christianity, just like Paul did, and Constantine, and Clovis, and Vladimir. Hindus stand warned that a minoritarian but activist strand within the Pagan reawakening is motivated by such xenophobia, which is largely based on ignorance or at least on the insufficient realization of the syncretic nature of even their own ancestral religions. Often they are people who care little about religion and more about ethnicity, using religion only to give some colour to their assertion of ethnic identity. My impression is that in the Odinist movement in the USA, with its increasing racial polarization, this “white pride” tendency is not just an embarrassing fringe, as it is in Europe, but may well represent the mainstream. And if it isn’t that yet, it will become predominant in the near future: as whites slip into minority status in the USA, those whites who are on the receiving end of the social changes (remember that Odinists are largely working-class) will probably lose their current inhibitions about racial self-identification on the African-American model. Whereas Christians have their own variety of white racism (KKK, Christian Identity), the large floating mass of secularized white Americans will increasingly find a cultural rallying-point in European, esp. Germanic neo-Paganism. Those Odinists who take their distances from such development will soon find themselves outnumbered by the new recruits for whom colour is more important than religious experiences. In Europe too we see that purely secular nationalist or racist circles affect Pagan terminology (the Flemish group Odal, the Austrian periodical Ostarra, the German periodical Sleipnir, the widespread use of the Celtic Cross by Euro-nationalists), but because of the more thorough secularization of European culture, this remains more purely a political code which does not interfere with the actual revival of ancestral religion. Most neo-Pagan including Odinist groups in Europe statutorily exclude neo-Nazis, Satanists and other such fringe characters. In efforts at cooperation, Hindus will not much come into contact with the xenophobic faction among the Pagan revivalists, precisely because the latter are not interested in brown immigrants, except negatively. And except for the identification of Hinduism with the caste system, which in turn has been identified with a kind of racial apartheid system. As you can check in David Duke’s book My Awakening, the Bible of the racialist Right in the USA, the Hindu caste system is widely understood as a system imposed by the “Aryan invaders” on the “dark skinned natives” to preserve their racial purity. That the Indo-Aryans didn’t succeed in the alleged endeavour of race preservation and ended up brown skinned themselves is another matter; fact is that the Vedas are regarded by ignorant Westerners as a description of the subjugation of the browns by the whites, and as an injunction to racial self-preservation. In continental Europe too, there is a movement of so-called Traditionalists, inspired by Rene’ Gue’non and Julius Evola, who take a similar view of the caste system, and who see it as part of the Indo-European heritage, hence relevant also for the European branches of the great Indo-European family. Obviously, these aren’t the friends you need, and if such people approach you, do patiently explain to them that the basis of modern science was laid by dark skinned people like the Harappans: mathematics, astronomy, writing etc. Perhaps that will change their outlook on racial and cultural differences. http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/hinduism/neopaganism.html

Posted by: Shambhu Jan 29 2006, 02:03 PM

I did not know that skinheadism etc is so prevalent... Anyway, even Americans can make out that racism is wrong, so I do not have long term fears from skinheadism. Re: new church zealots: Agreed. But I want to wean people away from Xtianity just as evangelists want to wean us away from Dharma-one step at a time. Everything needs to go on in parallel. No sense making people defensive and losing even the half-gains that you make by diluting out Xtianity. After the first step, the falsehood of "Christ" can be exposed. (Of course, some people can see the falsehood of Christ immediately after they are shown a few books. But such people do not make up the whole of Xtianity)

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 29 2006, 02:20 PM

the scene is changing very fast... from when Elst wrote it to now, its very different. internet helps movements snowball fast. and then, there are the non-pagan (ie. still christian) racists. that they members are generally working class (as elst rihtly pointd out) - esp those who may have had their jobs off-shored, makes them more dangerous. those scum dont have anything to lose. also often the leaders are anything but working class - take national alliance for instance - headed by a physicist.

Posted by: agnivayu Jan 29 2006, 05:08 PM

Whether westerners are Xtian, Pagan, or whatever, racism will remain. I think it's because of the eyeball factor. They are convinced they look better and are superior to other races, and they are paranoid that non-whites will swamp their lands and make their identity extinct. As pagans though, they are more likely to keep to themselves, and not be motivated to convert. There WILL be a racial revival in western (esp. European ) countries. Non-whites living there need to know that the relative tolerance found in many western countries today is not going to last forever.

QUOTE(ben_ami @ Jan 30 2006, 02:50 AM)
the scene is changing very fast... from when Elst wrote it to now, its very different. internet helps movements snowball fast. and then, there are the non-pagan (ie. still christian) racists. that they members are generally working class (as elst rihtly pointd out) - esp those who may have had their jobs off-shored, makes them more dangerous. those scum dont have anything to lose. also often the leaders are anything but working class - take national alliance for instance - headed by a physicist.
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Posted by: Aryawan Jan 29 2006, 05:15 PM

So long the per capita income of EU and N.Amer is enough to keep lavish life style of locals going there will be no problems. As old Hindi saying goes ' Khali dimaag shaitaan ka dimag'. (Empty mind is devil's mind) So long there is enough on the plate to gratify senses to the limits there will not be problems. The problems might arise if there is an economic debale due to rise of China or India which effects their consumer lifestyle. This may give rise to a backlash against Indians (Asians). Keeping that in mind, it is important for all desis to keep one leg in the home country and one in the karma bhumi. Oncoming oil crisis, global confrontation as envisaged by Samuel Huntington, and other economic difficulties of the west might create problems for Indoos/Desis.

Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jan 29 2006, 06:45 PM

I strongly disagree with Mitradena Hindus must migrate to every non-islamic country and breed rapidly and create bases worldwide

Posted by: mitradena Jan 29 2006, 08:19 PM

QUOTE
I strongly disagree with Mitradena Hindus must migrate to every non-islamic country and breed rapidly and create bases worldwide
Theoretically you are right. But in practice I see the Hindu family structure collapsing completely in the west. Of what use is our expansion, if our family itself breaks down? I will give one example: I know one Tamil Brahmana female raised here in the USA, learnt all about Hindu culture at home. On fine day she comes home and says she is in "love" with some white Roman Catholic. She ends up marrying him and now has 4 Kids I believe. Now their wedding was a Catholic-Hindu combo and her husband actually respects the Hindu religion & allows her to do whatever she wants. No quarrels there. But the kids regulary attend Catholic church. They don't go to any temples at all. Now anyone want to take a guess how they are going to turn out? Do they even know what Hinduism is? Not only have we lost one of our own, she has gone and bred 4 potential enemies. This is a real shame. Now whose fault is it that this happened. Her parents? Her? Western culture? What can we do now that we have lost her? What if our daughters do the same thing tommorow? How do we react? The American legal system is going to back them up. No community pressure to stop this. We are doomed in the west.

Posted by: mitradena Jan 29 2006, 08:24 PM

QUOTE
Keeping that in mind, it is important for all desis to keep one leg in the home country and one in the karma bhumi.
Excellent point Aryawan. We need to keep an exit strategy in case the West falls flat on its face.

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 29 2006, 08:51 PM

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Jan 30 2006, 07:15 AM)
I strongly disagree with Mitradena Hindus must migrate to every non-islamic country and breed rapidly and create bases worldwide
*
welll let them maintain their home base first.

Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jan 30 2006, 07:18 AM

The home base may not be maintainable Hence the need to diversify

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 30 2006, 09:51 AM

much better we hold fort and not diversify. it wouldnt be fun if the capitals of hinduism move to the west, the way yoga is today more a western thing than indian.

Posted by: rajesh_g Jan 30 2006, 10:10 AM

Some of the assumptions underlying this thread are pretty sad, if one thinks about this. In any case, can we list some precedents where the hindus moved to foreign lands and the state they are in right now ? My friend says that hindus in west indies are more hindu then India for example. Ditto with Fiji and other parts of Africa. Please list other cases. Add more history to this thread.

Posted by: Sunder Jan 30 2006, 10:37 AM

Mitradena, an exit strategy is indeed an easy way out. This however is not a solution to anything. A Brahmana adheres to truth wherever he is, and in the face of adversity he does not think twice about moving to safe grounds. Like during the Islamic terror campaigns many Brahmanas from North India moved South. Running away is said to be the thirty sixth strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Strategies) and is not the first one to be deliberated upon. On the one hand we hear Vamadeva Shastri talking about the Intellectual Kshatriya, and on the other hand we hear from our own svajanas that "tactical retreat" is the best. I agree with you that in the face of a calamity one should have an option to quickly exit back to safety. But can you suggest other methods of turning the situation around in the west to our favour? How can one prevent such erosion from Sanathana Dharma to Mleccha Dharma or other adharmic ways ? Where have things gone wrong ? Is it lack of organization? Lack or Leadership? Lack of resources? Or plain lack of knowledgeable people coming forward to take upon this responsibility (of saving and propogating Dharma) on to their shoulders? Which one is it ? I guess it is a combination of all. Remember, even during Chanakya's time there was a disarray. There was a danger of the 'west' defeating the east. Chanakya Vishnugupta started as ONE MAN with nothing but resolution. Here never ran away to Pataliputra to hide and save his skin. He had no weapons apart from his intellect, and no words but that of Truth. Starting from scratch he managed to bring the people of the country not only to turn the situation around and rout the Greeks whom Aambhi and Parvataraja could not stop, but he also went ahead to establish the Mauryan empire stood its ground for long after he had passed away. If one frail man can do that 2500 years ago when internet communication was not possible, then what stops the current generation of tech savvy intelligent Bharatheeyas from doing this. What stops us from raising collective awareness of Sanathana Dharmins. Running away definitely is an option, but it is not the first option. Remember the words of Lord Krishna. bhayaad ranaad uparatam mamsyante tvam maha-rathah yesham cha tvam bahu-mato bhutva yasyasi laaghavam (2:35) avachya-vadams cha bahun vadisyanti tavahitah nindantas tava samarthyam tato duhkhataram nu kim (2:36) hato va prapsyasi svargam jitva va bhoksyase mahim tasmad uttistha kaunteya yuddhaya krta-niscayah (2:37) The likes of Sri Sri and Swami Dhayananda Saraswathi are setting up ashrams in the west, and we talk about running away from our land to India. What prompted you into this line of thought ?

Posted by: agnivayu Jan 30 2006, 05:24 PM

I think in Chanakya's time, the threat from the Yavanas wasn't that significant. The technological and Industrial production advantage enjoyed by for example the British was much much greater. The connection of the Greeks is western civilization is itself questionable, that was a 19th century Northern European invention to give them a longer timeline. Many modern Greeks don't seem to appreciate that connection. The only way I can see Hindus maintaining a long term presence in the west is by concentrating their numbers. THe lands most suitable will be the "New World" lands (i.e. outside Europe), basically Australia, New Zealand, America, and Canada. Here Hindus will have to create their own concentrated populations, and maybe eventually even a primarily Hindu state (Like Mormons in Utah ?) The best prospect in my opinion is western Australia, that province is depopulated, only a stone's throw away from India itself, and depopulated. Maybe mining workers from India can somehow sneak in large numbers to that province. Keep in mind, China has it's eye on spreading their folks around too, and unlike India, their government is Nationalistic. Australia will be swallowed by Asiatic hordes, Hindus must seize the opportunity and increase their numbers there.

QUOTE(Sunder @ Jan 30 2006, 11:07 PM)
Remember, even during Chanakya's time there was a disarray. There was a danger of the 'west' defeating the east. Chanakya Vishnugupta started as ONE MAN with nothing but resolution. Here never ran away to Pataliputra to hide and save his skin. He had no weapons apart from his intellect, and no words but that of Truth. Starting from scratch he managed to bring the people of the country not only to turn the situation around and rout the Greeks whom Aambhi and Parvataraja could not stop, but he also went ahead to establish the Mauryan empire stood its ground for long after he had passed away. If one frail man can do that 2500 years ago when internet communication was not possible, then what stops the current generation of tech savvy intelligent Bharatheeyas from doing this. What stops us from raising collective awareness of Sanathana Dharmins. Running away definitely is an option, but it is not the first option. Remember the words of Lord Krishna. bhayaad ranaad uparatam mamsyante tvam maha-rathah yesham cha tvam bahu-mato bhutva yasyasi laaghavam (2:35) avachya-vadams cha bahun vadisyanti tavahitah nindantas tava samarthyam tato duhkhataram nu kim (2:36) hato va prapsyasi svargam jitva va bhoksyase mahim tasmad uttistha kaunteya yuddhaya krta-niscayah (2:37) The likes of Sri Sri and Swami Dhayananda Saraswathi are setting up ashrams in the west, and we talk about running away from our land to India. What prompted you into this line of thought ?
*

Posted by: Aryawan Jan 30 2006, 06:05 PM

QUOTE(agnivayu @ Jan 31 2006, 05:54 AM)
I think in Chanakya's time, the threat from the Yavanas wasn't that significant. The technological and Industrial production advantage enjoyed by for example the British was much much greater. The connection of the Greeks is western civilization is itself questionable, that was a 19th century Northern European invention to give them a longer timeline. Many modern Greeks don't seem to appreciate that connection. Australia will be swallowed by Asiatic hordes, Hindus must seize the opportunity and increase their numbers there.
However, Chinese are viewed with suspicion in most countries. Whereas Hindus are viewed condescendingly in EU or positively in Americas. Australia/NZ is in between. Hindus are also viewed as someone hassle free/ neutral which is good . Samuel Huntington also considers Hindus as 'Swing Civilization' in a way neutral. Hence, either party in any conflict will consider Hindus as non aggressive neutral. A case in point is US Iran oncoming conflict.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilizations I don't know whether anyone noticed it, if you visit any of the Border bookshops and search for religious books on Hinduism , you will find that for all other religions there is a separate section i.e. for Islam, Chistians, Buddhism, Judaism but for Hinduism there is no separate section. Some books on Hindu religion are available in a miscelleneous section. I think just number will not matter. What will matter is to make their presence felt. Hindus will never be a threat to anyone which is good in a world where everybody practices non-violence. But in a cut throat world, you need to be street smart to survive. Hindus can learn from Jews on making their presence felt in USA. In EU, whatever you do, Hindus will never get a foothold. Note increasing attack on Hindus in UK after 7/7. Mainland EU is even worse. Chinese have far greater influence than Hindus. With most of SE Asian businesses controllled by Chinese. Plus as you have said Chinese government is very aggressive in promoting Chinese hegemony in the world. It would be interesting to see how Huntington's prophecy unfolds...and in many ways they are beginning to prove correct...

Posted by: Bharatvarsh Jan 30 2006, 08:44 PM

QUOTE
In EU, whatever you do, Hindus will never get a foothold. Note increasing attack on Hindus in UK after 7/7. Mainland EU is even worse. Chinese have far greater influence than Hindus.
If Hindus are smart they can get a foothold, how are Muslims managing to slowly breed their way to majority in EU even after 9/11?, a community has to have cohesion, organisation, militancy and numbers and good PR skills (when you don't have that you should have a reputation that will create fear among our enemies). The Sikhs have the first 3 but lack numbers, at present Hindus have none of these but if we start now we can easily take over, look at Leicester as an example.

Posted by: Rajita Rajvasishth Jan 30 2006, 11:32 PM

Mitradena there are the kind of views that are racist. Whiteness is not Christianity. The Hindu West is hostile to India because of Christianity. Exclusivism is a product of Christianity. Hindu parents should first start tutoring their kids appropriately before giving up to the force of external influences. Tell kids what is bad in Western culture. India is not some Aryavarta or glowing deva loka. I was there just last year and see that the westernization is even more than here. Hindi cinemas are terrible influence and Delhi is really not a good place for girls. What is more Muslim population is growing in India like a time bomb. We need new homelands to support our descendents when India explodes due to Muslims.

Posted by: ben_ami Jan 30 2006, 11:36 PM

but why give up on india just yet. if we start looking abroad and consider india's islamisation to be complete, why then our position will be like that of the wandering jew. i dont agree with you at all. we need every indian back, we need to have all the reins of power in hindu hands, all the companies, all education, all jobs and millitary too. we wont give up witho out a showdown.

Posted by: agnivayu Jan 31 2006, 06:29 AM

We can't give up on India. If Hindus lose India, Hinduism itself is finished. No other land in the world can form a 1 Billion strong Hindu Nation. Think about it, if the planet was empty which land would you pick to start a civilization? India is the best choice, because of the large amount of arable land and river systems which translates into a large population. Although Xtianity seems to be the problem, I wouldn't simply dismiss race. Most Europeans have already given up on Xtianity in their personal lives (for export only), but they still believe in their racial superiority. Hindus should continue to flood all countries, but if things get ugly, and hard choices must be made, it's better to keep India Hindu and lose everything else.

QUOTE(ben_ami @ Jan 31 2006, 12:06 PM)
but why give up on india just yet. if we start looking abroad and consider india's islamisation to be complete, why then our position will be like that of the wandering jew. i dont agree with you at all. we need every indian back, we need to have all the reins of power in hindu hands, all the companies, all education, all jobs and millitary too. we wont give up witho out a showdown.
*

Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jan 31 2006, 07:39 AM

First evacuate 15 million BD hindus and 3 mil pak hindus back to India to deislamise border districts Having several overseas bases is an insurance policy

Posted by: Aryawan Jan 31 2006, 06:12 PM

Where are the poor Hindus?...by Francois Gautier January 31, 2006 The consequences of Sonia Gandhi becoming what the French call the eminence grise -- one who controls everything from behind the scenes -- for India are not only visible for all those who care to look, but also have far-reaching -- and maybe irreversible -- consequences. Occultism, in the ancient sense, was the manipulation of forces which cannot be seen, but which constantly clash in the world. One could say politics is the art of controlling these forces, overtly and covertly. At the top, great leaders create their own occultism. Their very presence generates certain atmospheres, which make or unmake revolutions. At the outset, one should first say the world is not Black and White, Good and Evil, Superman versus the Bad Guys, as the Americans would like us to believe. Hindu groups need not demonise Sonia Gandhi. She probably was a good wife to Rajiv Gandhi, a good daughter-in-law to Indira Gandhi. And by all accounts she is a good mother to her children, judging by the way they dote on her. One also hears first-hand reports about her concern for smaller people, her dignity in the suffering that befell her when her husband was blown to pieces, and her courtesy with visitors. That said, what is happening in India at the moment makes me profoundly uneasy. Francois Gautier: In defence of Hindu gurus I am a Westerner and a born Christian. Yet, I find it absurd that in a country of one billion people -- one of the most ancient civilisations of this world -- Indians cannot find an Indian to govern themselves. There are many good and talented people within the Congress. And one wonders what is this unconscious, occult urge that makes them look up to someone, who, however well-meaning, is alien to their culture. Let us first look at the visible, overt consequences of Sonia Gandhi's supreme leadership. There is, of course,the Quattrocchi affair. Did Law Minister Hansraj Bhardwaj order to defreeze the Italian's British bank accounts only to please Sonia? Or did Bhardwaj do that on her orders, even though the Central Bureau of Investigation took the blame? Then, we have the Iraqi Oil for Food scam. Could it be that the go ahead for K Natwar Singh and his son's Iraq trip came from Sonia through her trusted aides? And what about Kashmir? Is Sonia planning some concessions, which in effect will deprive India of this most ancient and sacred piece of earth? Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has just held talks with People's Conference chief Sajjad Ghani Lone. What is General Musharraf's game, now that he has dazzled the West, who laid everywhere a red carpet for him? Is the man who conceived Kargil sincere? Pervez Musharraf is a clever magician. Nobody in India has found anything to confirm that he is actually holding talks with the Hurriyat leaders, who want Kashmir to separate from India and most likely go to Pakistan. There is in India an obsession and a fear of a small country that has lost the four wars it initiated with India. Then, most dangerous of all, we have Nepal. Because of the intense pressure of India's Communists, India is pushing the king of Nepal into China's arms (Beijing just delivered 25 trucks of weapons to Nepal) and Pakistan, which is opening consular posts everywhere. If Nepal is taken over by the Maoists, India will be surrounded by three intensely hostile entities: Tibet (under China), Nepal and the valley of Kashmir, which Pakistan wants by force or guile. All of these are on a height, which gives tremendous strategic advantage. Dr Singh keeps praising China, but there is no doubt that Beijing is New Delhi's deadliest enemy. It does not need to fight a war, as it is invading India with cheap products, encircling India by making deals with hostile nations, beating India in the energy sector and quietly blocking India's entry into the United Nations Security Council. Francois Gautier: Who are the real Dalits of India? Is Sonia aware of all this? If she is, then she does not act in India's best interests. Let's come to the covert, occult signs. I am a little uneasy when I see how much Christianity is taking over India under the reign of Sonia Gandhi. According to the 2001 census, there are about 2.34 million Christians in India; not even 2.5 per cent of the nation, a negligible amount. Yet, there are today five Christian chief ministers in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kerala and Andhra Pradesh. I share with Sonia a love for India. Like her, I have lived in this country for over 30 years. Like her, I have married an Indian. But nevertheless, since she is at the top, Christian conversions in India seem to have gone into overdrive. More than 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries are involved in conversion activities across different states. In Tripura, there were no Christians at Independence; there are 120,000 today, a 90 per cent increase since 1991. The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there were only 1,710 Christians in 1961, but 1.2 million today, as well as 780 churches! In Andhra Pradesh, churches are coming up every day in far-flung villages and there was even an attempt to set up one near Tirupati. Many northeast separatist movements are not only Christian dominated, but sometimes function with the covert backing of the missionaries. In Kerala, particularly in the poor coastal districts, you find 'miracle boxes' in local churches. The gullible villager writes out a paper mentioning his wish: A fishing boat, a loan for a pucca house, fees for the son's schooling, etc. And a few weeks later, the miracle happens! Of course, the whole family converts, making others in the village follow suit. During the tsunami, entire Dalit villages in Tamil Nadu were converted to Christianity with the lure of money. Then there is this rapid Westernisation of India. There are good things in the West -- its material consciousness, care for nature, logical mind -- but it is nevertheless in crisis. Its Church is in disarray, three marriages out of five end in divorce and some children need to go to psychiatrists before they start shooting other children. Yet, if you have a look at most of the mainstream English-speaking Indian magazines and newspapers today, you will notice that all their cover stories deal with Western concepts, that they are looking at India from a Western point of view, such as talking about 'New Age' spirituality. As if spirituality is new to India! You will notice that there is never any reference to India's great past, or to India's philosophy, or medicine -- which, by the way, is becoming fashionable in the West. Brinda Karat went after Swami Ramdev and Ayurveda, the oldest medical system still in practice in the world, although she did not get much support. Notice also that when the Shankaracharya of Kanchi is arrested, a section of the Indian intelligentsia applauds, though he has still not been proven guilty. And that when a new Pope is elected in Rome, we get in India hours of live coverage and countless cover stories. The occult effect of it is that nobody realises that in a country of 850 million Hindus, you have now a Sikh prime minister -- when Sikhs constitute only 2 per cent of the country's population; a Muslim President -- when Muslims make up 10 per cent of India; a Communist Speaker in Parliament -- when Communism is moribund the world over; and a Western and Christian supreme leader, when Westerners constitute only 0.0001 per cent of India and Christians 3 per cent. Where are the poor Hindus? What will happen if India becomes enough Westernised at the social level, Christianised and Islamised at the religious level and taken over by the Marxists at the intellectual level? Not only will India lose its unique soul and just become another Western clone in the developing world, but the earth will lose something very precious. It will lose an ancient knowledge, a irreplaceable way of being, which makes even the most ordinary farmer or coolie carry something unique in his or her genes: A tolerance, an acceptance that god can take many forms, an innate philosophical mind, an understanding that there is something beyond us, beyond death. Indian Christians are different from any Christians in the world, Indian Muslims different from any Muslims in the world. They would also lose. Maybe it is thus necessary for Indians to see for themselves the harmful effects of Sonia being queen. Only then will they realise that it is important to have an Indian at the top, someone who is in touch with India's ideals and spirituality. http://us.rediff.com/news/2006/jan/31franc.htm?q=sp&file=.htm

Posted by: mitradena Feb 3 2006, 08:29 PM

Sunder, Very good post. I have been thinking on what you said for the past 4 days, before deciding on replying. I have changed my mind after reading what you said.

QUOTE
I agree with you that in the face of a calamity one should have an option to quickly exit back to safety. But can you suggest other methods of turning the situation around in the west to our favour? How can one prevent such erosion from Sanathana Dharma to Mleccha Dharma or other adharmic ways?
Since I have an emotional mind of a Bhakta, I think the first thing to do is to pray for divine grace from the Devas: ajItAH syAma saradassatam! May we remain undefeated for a 100 autumns! na hanyate na jIyate tvoto nainamagmho asnotyantito na dUrAt! He who is protected by you (Bhagavan), will not suffer from any disease, he will live long, sin from near or far will not torment him. Swami Sivananda said, "Hindu scriptures are the oldest in the world, Sanatana-Dharma is so called, not only because it is eternal, but also because it is protected by God and because it can make us eternal." Vasistha says that the outer world is a reflex of our own inner mind. That being the case, as we purify our mind with Bhakti, we get the will power to change the outer world around us. Further, I think I was mistaken to say that we need to run away. After all where can we run? Wherever we go Maya will chase us. The source of all fear is in my own mind. I am trying to run away from own mind. Wherever I go in this Universe my mind will follow. Further I will never make any spiritual progress until I become fearless. So it is Bhagavan's wish that I become stronger mentally first. Perhaps that is why I am placed in such adverse circumstances. This is a test. And those with sraddha(faith) will certainly cross this ocean of difficulty confronting Hinduism. So armed with a powerful mind we can prevent erosion of Dharma in the outer world around us.

Posted by: Ravish Feb 4 2006, 08:41 AM

[In the days of rapid globalisation, it is not reasonable to expect that all Hindus will go back to India just to preserve their Hindu values.It is simply not possible on the contrary the number of mixed marrages will increase in the future as it is happening in India itself. The present generation Indians who have come to the West in the last one decade are I would say still a better lot, as majority of them confine to their own community socially. In the future, it will be unthinkable that their children born in foreign lands will continue to do the same as they will obviously have the influence of the surrounds where they grow up.

Posted by: Shambhu Feb 4 2006, 11:40 AM

What I find surpising is the lack of Hindu vision to slowly convert the rest of the world to Dharma. The first step is to bring the world to face exclusivity of Missionary style Xtianity and Islam. This will take decades (and will not replace immediate measures). But unless Hindus start believing in themselves, and seeing that satyameva jayate implies that only Dharma will prevail all over, they will always think in a fight-or-flight mode. We should be, like me, in a war by attrition mode, and assured of victory. And have milestones to map the path with small victories. That is called being a visionary. And it does take a huge amount of "other people can go @@@@ themselves attitude".

Posted by: agnivayu Feb 4 2006, 12:13 PM

I think Hinduism's greatest asset has been the lack of converting with hysteria (like some big clock is running down) like Islam and Xtianity. What has Islam and Xtianity gained by their conversions politically ? Due to aggressive conversion, the Xtian and Muslim worlds are divided into hundreds of countries. Shia's fight Sunni's, Catholic's fight Protestant. I think Hindu reason and passive conversion is our strength. What we have been stupid about is not paying attention to demographics and Muslim and Xtian percentages, that can be corrected by deportation, sterilizing , increasing birth rate of Hindus, and some conversions. Better than making the world Hindu, we should revive the local pagan traditions of all countries. Some strong cultural differences will prevent any large immigration of foreigners into India.

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 5 2006, 12:10 AM)
What I find surpising is the lack of Hindu vision to slowly convert the rest of the world to Dharma. The first step is to bring the world to face exclusivity of Missionary style Xtianity and Islam. This will take decades (and will not replace immediate measures). But unless Hindus start believing in themselves, and seeing that satyameva jayate implies that only Dharma will prevail all over, they will always think in a fight-or-flight mode. We should be, like me, in a war by attrition mode, and assured of victory. And have milestones to map the path with small victories. That is called being a visionary. And it does take a huge amount of "other people can go @@@@ themselves attitude".
*

Posted by: Sunder Feb 4 2006, 12:30 PM

Vijayee bhava Mitra, sadaa vijayee bhava. ajItAH syAma sasvatham! I am glad that you changed your mind. We cannot afford to lose someone like you who follows Dharma from this side of the world. I assume you have seen many instances where erosion from Sanathana Dharma is happening or there is ashraddha and Dharma glaani that disturbs you. I can understand what you are witnessing. I fully agree with you that it is *Ishwara* who can grant us the strength to keep up the Path. We have to keep that faith and also spread it. YOU have to be the primary influencer Mitra. You have the faith, now you need the diplomacy and the tact to spread it and educate others who are inclined. The local Sahasranamam group here, and the temples were abuzz with movies and politics not too long ago. Now it has become a hotbed for Vedantic discussions. I keep on expanding my circle of aquiaintances, start discussions on Ancient India, and leading to Vedanta. Thus they get introduced to the local Chinmaya mission or Vivekananda Society. I get mails from even Muslims on Yoga, which I happily take up. When talking to my Hindu, Bhuddist, Christian and Agnostic friends/colleagues/aquaintances too the topic invariably ends up in 'Cosmic Intelligence' or some aspect of Hinduism, like Upanishadic way of life. Thus I say, YOU are the primary influencer. Take up public speaking. That is how you can communicate to the masses. One on one communication is slow and time consuming. When you hold the mic, you get a separate power and authority than speaking from the foxhole. THEN you can speak one-on-one for those interested in the audience, and follow up to keep their faith. I remember you talking about a magazine a while ago. This is a powerful tool. Has there been any progress ? Meanwhile, I would suggest that you contact the local temples to get contacts from newsmedia so you (or someone) can write occasional articles or regular features in the papers. It need not be San Francisco Times, you can initially target the community based newspapers or the temple newsletters/chinmaya newsletters/diwali magazine. You have rightly said that you have to be armed with a powerful mind to prevent erosion of Dharma in the outer world around us. On the one hand, it is "Mano Balam" and "Atma Bhalam". On the other hand it is use of Media and other explicit methods like Krishna had to do in speaking out the Gita. Last week, I had delivered a lecture on Hinduism as part of a six-week course on 'World Religions' at a local college for seniors. I followed up with a thank you note immediately after, and here is the response I got from the Organizer (who is now a friend.) >>> Sunder, Good Morning, >>> I was slow in getting to my e-mail until just now, as I had >>> intended to tell you that we all were very appreciative of your lecture and >>> grateful you made time in your busy schedule for us. Every comment I >>> received was positive and congratulatory, many felt that with your >>> broadbased knowledge and delightful style you probably could give a six week >>> course on Hinduism alone. I still would enjoy taking you to lunch at ****** >>> ***** soon and further discussions. Please name your time and date and >>> I'll try and arrange it!! If you require any references for a speaking >>> engagement, please let me know and I would be more than happy to oblige. >>> >>> My best to you and thanks again. >>> Regards, Nina I am soon planning on having lecture series on Hinduism at local temples. MAINLY for HINDUS. I will be targetting Hindu teens who have no clue what their Religion stands for and the the wealth of Information it has to offer. To finish off the post quickly, I summarize the post as follows: Develop immense Dhyana Bhalam/Mano bhalam/Atma Bhalam. Cultivate media contacts. Take up public speaking and mass communication. Follow Gita 11:33.

Posted by: Shambhu Feb 4 2006, 12:36 PM

QUOTE(agnivayu @ Feb 5 2006, 12:43 AM)
I think Hinduism's greatest asset has been the lack of converting with hysteria (like some big clock is running down) like Islam and Xtianity. What has Islam and Xtianity gained by their conversions politically ? Due to aggressive conversion, the Xtian and Muslim worlds are divided into hundreds of countries. Shia's fight Sunni's, Catholic's fight Protestant. I think Hindu reason and passive conversion is our strength. What we have been stupid about is not paying attention to demographics and Muslim and Xtian percentages, that can be corrected by deportation, sterilizing , increasing birth rate of Hindus, and some conversions. Better than making the world Hindu, we should revive the local pagan traditions of all countries. Some strong cultural differences will prevent any large immigration of foreigners into India.
QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 5 2006, 12:10 AM)
What I find surpising is the lack of Hindu vision to slowly convert the rest of the world to Dharma. The first step is to bring the world to face exclusivity of Missionary style Xtianity and Islam. This will take decades (and will not replace immediate measures). But unless Hindus start believing in themselves, and seeing that satyameva jayate implies that only Dharma will prevail all over, they will always think in a fight-or-flight mode. We should be, like me, in a war by attrition mode, and assured of victory. And have milestones to map the path with small victories. That is called being a visionary. And it does take a huge amount of "other people can go @@@@ themselves attitude".
*
*
Exactly as I feared..why do people see "conversion" only in physical terms? When a muslim is de-brainwashed of Islamism, he is converted. Physical conversion is a dream. Reviving paganism is conversion. Slowly. You see the unifying hypothesis here? Exclusivity vs Dharma.

Posted by: agnivayu Feb 4 2006, 02:33 PM

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 5 2006, 01:06 AM)
Exactly as I feared..why do people see "conversion" only in physical terms? When a muslim is de-brainwashed of Islamism, he is converted. Physical conversion is a dream. Reviving paganism is conversion. Slowly. You see the unifying hypothesis here? Exclusivity vs Dharma.
*
That would make them a dormant volcano, better than an active one, but still dangerous. As long as that ideology on paper say's about waging Jihad etc., the confrontation will continue. You can see with Christianity, how even after reformation in the west, extremism comes bubbling up just like Islam. Their extremists call non Christians Infidels etc.. What you propose is a good start, but as long as someone identifies themself with an Abrahamic religion they are a ticking timebomb.

Posted by: mitradena Feb 4 2006, 08:55 PM

Sunder, Good post. You are an inspiration to us all. Talking to you is equal to Satsanga. I am reading your post carefully and trying to digest the suggestions. We have a team of people here working on a Magazine. It is growing slowly. As Rajitha & Bharatvarsh pointed out, I tend to be a mild rascist. I need to stop thinking negatively and start channeling all my energy into positive constructive solutions for Hinduism.

Posted by: Shaurya Feb 5 2006, 06:26 AM

Sunder, Any chance that you live in the NY Metro area or visit for your lectures here. BTW: I do go to the local Chinmaya. While they are great for my kids, I want something at a faster pace. Want to make up for lost time. Any suggestions?

Posted by: Sunder Feb 5 2006, 09:03 AM

QUOTE(Shaurya @ Feb 5 2006, 06:56 PM)
Sunder, Any chance that you live in the NY Metro area or visit for your lectures here. BTW: I do go to the local Chinmaya. While they are great for my kids, I want something at a faster pace. Want to make up for lost time. Any suggestions?
*
Shaurya, I live in Canada. I personally think the style of the teacher matters the most. Chinmaya mission trains Balavihar teachers and each individual, according to their own personal trait influence the chlidren. For young kids (say 5-10) I would not worry about fast track. Pushing them faster is only detrimental. Thought they have short attention span, they listen a lot more than you know. Parents are the primary influencers in their lives. You have to start with stories - which is the most effective way to get their attention. I however would encourage you telling them Stories from Itihasa/Puranas. Even one story a day is quite efficient. There are stories of Andakasura, Jalandarasura, Tarakasura, Tripura Asuras etc. Or great kings like Ambareesha, Ranthideva, Harishchandra, Dileepa, Raghu, Rama etc. Preteens (10-13) are eager to please you, to gain recognition. Treat them as equals and assign them tasks. Give them "pop-quizzes" from Puranas. Trivias on Vehicles Vs Gods (e.g. Owl is the vehicle of _________). Or Who is whose wife/husband/son (Andaka was born to _________), or names of weapons (Vishnu's Bow is called ______) etc. This gives concrete association with each deity. It is from the formed worship that they go to the formless. For teens, you have to challenge them. Teens are skeptical i-know-it-all type who will not accept anything on face value. Teens specially 15+ would appreciate the scientific and logical aspect of Hinduism. They tend to be fascinated by mention of Vaisheshika, Nyaya (that they can use in 'debates' smile.gif and a small percentage also is drawn to self enquiry and meditation.) I have 25+ of my TV Interviews on VHS Tapes, let's see if I can find the time to consolidate them. Having said the above, I must warn you, I am just an ordinary Joe compared to the great stalwarts in this forum.

Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Feb 5 2006, 09:33 AM

Sunder- it is great to see the positive public approach you are taking. It is also good to note that you have turned the temple discussions away from movies and politics.

Posted by: Sunder Feb 5 2006, 10:01 AM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Feb 5 2006, 10:03 PM)
Sunder- it is great to see the positive public approach you are taking. It is also good to note that you have turned the temple discussions away from movies and politics.
*
Thanks Hauma. You are someone I look up to for your indepth knowledge on Sanathana Dharma. I only do what I can. I sometimes wish I could do more or better. There are many temples here, one step at a time. thanks again.

Posted by: Shaurya Feb 5 2006, 10:09 AM

Sunder, I think my question was not ealborate enough. What i meant was that although Balvihar is good enough for my Kids, I am looking for something for myself. At our local Bal Vihar there are Adult study groups on the Gita and other Vedantic topics, which I attend and was looking for something that would go at a faster pace for myself. Thanks for the pointers for Kids.

Posted by: Gus Feb 5 2006, 06:04 PM

What a silly topic... Only someone who is unsure of his own philosophy would feel like it cannot be spread to others.

Posted by: mitradena Feb 6 2006, 08:53 AM

I think this topic is relevant for second generation Hindus living outside India. I am almost a second generation Hindu American. I came here when I was a young boy. I preserved Hinduism even when I had little contact with other Hindus for many years. There is an identity crisis that does crop up once in a while in our minds. Also, since we hold the memory of India as the cherished motherland, naturally the question of going back does arise. However as Sunder pointed out America is for all practical purposes my homeland. I don't know any other country that I am so familiar with. In the last 14 years I have been to India for a total of 2 weeks only. So India is more of a mental construct in my head than an actual reality.

Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 6 2006, 10:06 AM

Mitradena, I have to admit, I wasnt sure of this thread when it started but in the end turns out to be a great show. Thanks to you and Sunder.. rocker.gif.

Posted by: Bharatvarsh Feb 12 2006, 02:53 PM

The following is a slap in the face to all those ignorant people who try to reduce Hinduism to an ethnic religion and make disparaging comments about afghan hounds and other such nonsensical comments: "The Sama Veda has eight Brahmanas associated with it. Some of th important ones are The Tandya Brahmana: This is the most important Brahmana associated with the Sama Veda. It provides general information about sacrifices. The Prauda Brahmana: It has 25 sections, which enumerate the Vratyastoma ritual by which non-Aryans were admitted into the Aryan fold. http://www.thesamaj.org/samaj/News/article/sid=76.html" "As for conversion, various forms of initiation of outsiders into successively more inner circles of Hindu tradition have existed for millennia, from the Vedic Vratyastoma ritual down to the Shuddhi ritual of the Arya Samaj.11 http://voiceofdharma.org/books/wiah/ch5.htm" So accpetance of outsiders into Sanatana Dharma has Vedic sanction and no matter what some later day narrow minded smritis say the Vedas shall ultimately prevail (and we already see this in our own lives with people of every race becoming Hindus). 




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