Monday, November 29, 2004
Arrest Of Shankaracharya -2
¶ 11/29/2004 06:04:00 PM 
| Posted by: Ashok Kumar Nov 12 2004, 10:09 AM |
| http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=565&st=390 ________________________________ It is a shameful day for Hindus. Shankaracharya of Kanchi was arrested on Diwali, while he was performing a Puja. While criminals lord over the country as ministers and chief ministers. The assault against Hindus and Hinduism has become too open and vile. While hindus and hindu political parties express impotent 'protests'. There are interests who demand 'respect' for every possible minority. But when it comes to the majority, everyone feels nothing to trample all over it. Hindu leaders and 'poets' should look into a mirror and despair. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 18 2004, 11:58 PM |
| http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/19kanchi.htm Updated link - rajesh_g |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 19 2004, 12:55 AM | ||
People believe Shankaracharya to be innocent because nobody ever heard of any controversey involving him, let's not talk about the history of Jayalalitha, Sasikala and MK. And nobody would say that he should be left free if he is really guilty. Chances that this can be a trap is very very high because there are many people who are not happy with his actions. How can you, as a third person, be so sure that he is not innocent unless you hear what he has to say about the charges?
Your actions look more like those of Americans who fully trusted Bush about Saddam's WMD. They never bothered to scruitinize the evidence and blindly believed. Unless you have an agenda, this is not the way people analyze things.
People who are charging Shankaracharya have the habit of taking vendetta, late night sweeps and do not come from any ideal back ground. So take their evidence with a pound of salt.
BTW, what gives you so much confidence in the government version of the stories knowing fully that none in the government is known for honesty and Jayalalitha herself is a master manipulator? |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 19 2004, 01:04 AM | ||||||
Brother this is yet another attempt to portray the acharya as someone "perfect" , far from it , the seer had deserted the mutt in 1987 , there is a standing dispute between him and the murder victim for ten years regarding the irregularities of the mutt finances.
This is an Attempt to elevate the acharya to a position where any critics of him are deemed not to come from any ideal background when the victim himself was a very close devotee to the much respected old seer and had enough respect among the mutt that the old seer granted him a house to live in and he supposedly blessed him for a son to be born and had him sent to rameswaram in the mutts own expenses for the same.I wonder , at how easily such very important facts which are very relevant to the case and seer in question are being ignored , and the seer gets elevated to a postion where he is beyond doubt "unquestionable"
It is not the chief minister who convicts but the courts and the courts have denied the acharyas plea not to let him to police custody and that the bail plea has been pending so long are enough indicators that the courts are convinced of the preliminary evidence submitted by the prosecution in the case. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 19 2004, 01:16 AM | ||||
You are still quoting the SUN TV evidences. Why do they prevent Acharya from talking or answering the questions? A person who left the mutt earlier doesn't mean that he can be a killer or plotter. It doesn't prove or disprove anything.
What makes you believe so much that it can never be trap? Why do you refuse to scruitinize the charges or analyze the actions of the government?
Boy, do you have any idea what TN CMs can do to the judges? Any idea what happens to the court cases against one when he/she becomes the CM?
How does this prove that victim indeed was killed by Kanchi's people and not by people who set the trap, without using SUN TV logic.
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| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 01:24 AM | ||||||||||||||||
samudra gupta,
Such letters are not normally typed/composed in public. If there is no signature, the letter falls flat on its face. The mere receipt of the letter by the Mutt or HH's acceptance (I have not seen it yet) that Sankarraman gave him personal troubles, does not imply that the letter in question was indeed written by Mr. Sankarraman. If Mr. Sankarraman was not computer-literate, he should have frequented a particular center for such activities and taken the help of a trusted person to do that. Have the police found out who it is, or are they saving this info. for later use ?
I would request you not to address me personally or question my smartness or otherwise. Also, I did not talk about TamilNadu and how it is impossible etc. A figment of your feverish imagination.
How does my simple question reveal my lack or otherwise of the "background knowledge", I am unable to understand. On the contrary, through my various posts, I believe that I have displayed considerable knowledge of the case in point. If, by "background knowledge", you imply toeing your line, of course, I am guilty of "lack of knowledge". BTW, many of my questions I raised earlier have so far gone unanswered.
Of course. What else do you expect ? Isn't it naive on your part to think that just because you, samudra gupta, say something, I should accept it ?
I had even earlier said that you have fallen prey to the same "pre-supposition" that you accuse me of. It is just as easy for me to say that you pre-suppose the HH as an evil person and you say all these things because of that.
Where did I say that ? Justice for a victim should not lead to injustice for an innocent. Make no mistake about that. The more I read about the various reports, the more I am convinced that somebody has schemed a deep conspiracy to implicate HH. By pursuing a wrong line of reasoning, it is the TN PP, Police and the Govt. that are denying justice to the poor Mr. Sankarraman.
So far, there is no satifactory answer to any question, in fact, no answer at all.
A lot of people here have given enough reason, pointed enough fingers at how things have gone wrong. Even many TN magazines and newspapers have "suspected" the handiwork of people in power or close to power etc. If HH can be doubted, what prevents others from doubting the not-so-clean politicians and others ? |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 19 2004, 03:38 AM |
| Accumulating information on acharya's incident here http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Glimpses_XI.htm |
| Posted by: Vajramuni Nov 19 2004, 03:41 AM |
| If it was any other Religion/Country this would never happen, they are more like a Mafia. They can always setup someone, find a scapegoat, bribe do a lot of other stuff. Leaves me wondering why nobody is falling on the sword from the Kanchi Mutt for this Pontiff? In any case it will be difficult to conclusively prove that he is the Master Mind and made the fateful decision. I hope he has great defence team, much like OJ. In future, I hope they build safety nets for the protection of a seer, who actually should not have much publicity. But, then in a Material world even God is a product. |
| Posted by: Vajramuni Nov 19 2004, 04:13 AM |
| Can any one xplain why he is lodged in the Vellore Jail and not in Kanchi/Madras jail? Is it not Vellore a Xtian strong hold? |
| Posted by: Sriman Nov 19 2004, 04:40 AM |
| Samudra Gupta is the one who is sounding arrogant today. SG, your statements are suspect for the following reasons: 1. Evreyone knew from day 1 about the Bangalore trip, in fact you asked for it twice on this thread -- and the same people responded, twice. Yet you seem to have ignored it, so I wonder if you are faking ignorance. 2. You assert about the Nepal trip, and that is just too absurd. Learn first about Z-class security, and then talk about trips outside the country. This alone is enough to question your credibility on all issues. 3. You falsely assert that everything was on the best of terms upto this between JJ and JS. Anyone who knows a little bit about TN situation knew that there was trouble between them, and that the hubris comment was the tip of the iceberg. 4. You have chosen to ignore the Sasikala land grab angle completely, even though that also has been known for some time now. 5. You speak about 1987 as if something criminal happened therein -- do you know of anything bad that happened? I don't. 6. Your assertions about SR typing letters without signatures etc are quite flimsy. 7. Your statements about phone records will have no weight - do you know if JJ had a personal phone accessible only to him? No. Quite a few from the mutt could have used the mutt phones. 8. There is nothing arrogant about wanting to talk to JJ when presented with the police demand in Mehbubnagar. After all, when he had done so much for JJ - even with the recent strains - it was quite logical to talk with her to see if she really was aware of what was going on; remember, this is the initial conversation, and at that time it is quite logical to doubt that the CM was aware of it. I will stop here for now,. But your postings over the past 24 hours have been quite different from your previous posts. You were better before today, even if on the wrong side (from my perspective); but your postings today have exhibited a marked deterioration in tenor -- I detect an almost drunken joy in your rantings today and the repeated use of slimy smilies. What happened today that your postings have changed so much in tone? |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 05:16 AM |
| The TN Govt. lawyer jumped the gun yesterday in the High Court and told the judge that the FCJM had already given police custody and so further deliberations in the bail application were unnecessary, when in fact he had only reserved the judgement till 10:30 AM today. To repeated inquiries by Hon. Judge Balasubramanian, the Govt. lawyers confirmed that it was so. They had then to apologize to the Judge for wrong information. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 05:27 AM | ||||
The above is what samudra gupta had said.
The below is the report from a 100% pro-DMK http://www.dinakaran.com/daily/2004/Nov/19/others/topstory0.html (Translated from Tamizh)
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| Posted by: Sriman Nov 19 2004, 06:29 AM |
| Given the above post by SSridhar, there is now as much credibility for Samudra Gupta's statements as to those uttered by his friend the moronic Public Prosecutor - Doraisamy. SG began earnestly, but he has lost all credibility with his postings today. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 08:14 AM |
| Folks, there is a series of articles in the latest edition of http://www.flonnet.com/fl2124/fl212400.htm I have not yet gone through all of them, but thought interested members may find it useful. It was interesting to see T.S.Subramanian, the science correspondent, write the first article. |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 19 2004, 08:14 AM |
| Hindu Human Rights Press Release Friday November 19th 2004 On a wet and wintry afternoon of Thursday 18th November 2004 Hindu Human Rights coordinated a protest at the precipitate arrest and imprisonment of Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati of Kanchi Mutt ,Tamil Nadu,South India for an “alleged “ serious crime. The protest took place outside the Indian High Commission, Aldwych, London, was marked by a candlelight vigil and attended by members and representatives of Hindu Human Rights, the World Hindu Maha Sangam,Indo-European Kashmir Forum and the United Council of UK Temples.It was was concluded by the handing in of a memorandum of protest to the Indian High Commission by a group of young British Hindu women. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 08:29 AM | ||
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2124/stories/20041203006400700.htm - Frontline
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 08:30 AM | ||
He can't hide his happiness, hatred towards some section.
How old is MKaruna?
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| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 08:33 AM | ||
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2124/stories/20041203006300800.htm...
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 08:33 AM |
| Lot of people have motive to kill Sankararaman including DMK workers, Jaya, Shiskala and MK. |
| Posted by: eswarpr Nov 19 2004, 08:36 AM |
| There is also another reason floating around, that JJ wanted control of the mutt and many of it's charity institutions and HH didn't oblige. |
| Posted by: ramana Nov 19 2004, 08:54 AM | ||
From newsinsight.net
The police remand is excessive as he is already in judicial cusotdy. It shows that there is an element of vendetta against him or even more the community.
BTW, the debate even here shows that the whole community is split on caste lines. What I discern is people want to be Hindu and agitate for Hindu rights provided those rights impinge only on non-Brahmin rights.
Yes Hindus can be casteless provided they have taken sanyas. Otherwise one has to support all Hindu rights. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 19 2004, 09:06 AM | ||
He is blinded by his hatred for the Acharya. Only one who is blinded by such a prejudice can claim that the almost universal planet wide presumption of innocence is dangerous. It is almost as if he cannot contain his glee that the top Brahmana in the state has been caught . I
I am deeply saddened by such behavior. The future of the subcontinent is bleak if educated individuals like SG fall prey to the baser impulses(envy, malice, )that are present in every individual. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 09:16 AM | ||
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1112901,0008.htm
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 09:25 AM | ||
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20041119020702&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=337&KANCHEEPURAM:~A~court~here~remanded~Kanchi~Sankaracharya,~Jayendra~Saraswathi,~to~three~days~police~custody~for~interrogation~in~a~murder~case.~Passing~orders~on~a~police~petition...
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| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 19 2004, 09:25 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
That information had to be posted since attempts were being made to showcase the seer as a very innocent person and in the words of the user ,
"nobody ever heard of any controversey involving him". No attempts however have been made to trace the reason behind the desertion of mutt by the seer.That indeed is controversy.
In addition , i take strong objection to your supposition that i have quoted just this and then went further to state that the acharya was guilty because of this fact.You have chosen to read it that way , because it goes well with your confidence and faith towards the seer all the while carefully ignoring that it was indeed the questioner who had made a false claim and that i proved it was to the contrary.
You have no idea about the judiciary system and the system of rotation of judges and that the whole nation has been very keenly and carefully watching the whole hearings.Why cant the seer be guilty ? Upon exactly what fact do you think he is innocent of the charges against him by the murder victim ? Exactly what proof have the defendents produced to show that this was a planned operation against the mutt/seer , far from it , the defendents were making extravagant claims so utterly insane , that they had to withdraw some of their allegations after being shown the video.I have every reason to doubt that such persons are well capable of orchestrating more such lies.
If you wish to take offense at my calling them liars , then do consider your derogatory comments about the indian judicial system.I am aware of its flaws FYI and am informed enough to know that in such a case where the stakes are high , the whole nation/religion watches and are keen to prove the prosecution is false , the judges and the like cannot be under any of the said influences and derogatory qualities attributed by you.
Nothing has been proved yet.Exactly what proof you have that this is a trap ?
Let me repeat "Nothing has been proved" and that includes the fact the the seer has not yet been convicted of being the man behind the murder.
The police are under no binding obligations whatsoever , to produce such evidence at this time of the prosecution , despite the seer being him. It is prudent to lay your claims upon facts reported by all the media including communist,hindu and all other media outlets.It would do more good to judge the "authority" of letter with the history of the feud between the two persons rather than indulging in arguments to prove a point and moreover someone who had read the letter would attest to the fact such only few persons like shankaraman could know about such details as exposed in the letter.
That is your belief , not a fact.Nothing has been proved yet.
Not true, the police have stated that they can conclusively prove the seer guilty of murder and i have reason to believe
Because Vellore is not prone to L&O problems , all politically sensitive prisoners are kept there.Request you not to make such imaginary "questions" far from reality and totally out of touch with the prevlant methods and practices.
I have openly expressed ignorance about that facts.
The well learned defense counsels are no longer talking about this.Wondered why ?
I am aware of the hospital deal , not the land grab angle.FYI i am also aware of the feud between the seer and victim
It indeed is criminal , and how about asking the seer for an explanation about why he deserted the matt and chose to flee to thalai-kaveri ? That explanation has never come from the mutt and the victim threatened to expose the details of the same incident
I am inclined to believe that such letters are indeed true and to make my belief strong ,affidavits filed by the police help immensly.
RECORDED VIDEO was played in court.You can quit making such statements as the defence counsels have.
And regarding my tone , yes i am totally aware of the tone.Nothing is intented to insult any member and i certainly did not ask for the next partition of the country.
The admins i am sure duly scrutinise every post made ,and they have made no objections yet.If they do so and are right about it , i have no second thoughts about editing my posts..
[admin note : We are leaving notes and messages for you - check and read]
You and i are equally privileged members (in case you are not a mod ) if you have rights to argue that the seer was innocent , i have every right to argue that the seer was guilty.Infact it looks like i am the only one to do so.However that is immaterial.I wonder if stating that the seer was guilty with certainly a harsh tone is akin to any serious offence to any of the laid forum rules. ?
People have posted derogatory comments with subtle references to my screen-name and the like ... i do not wish to complain/report , but the intent is well know.
Why ? Just because i argue that the seer could be guilty.I wish to use the word "could" FYI.
I never went to such extents , but consciously raised my tone. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 19 2004, 09:50 AM | ||||
Kaushal ji
I have to make myself clear here , because i am afraid i am being grossly misunderstood.
Sir , i have confirmation from my relative that it indeed was this seer who discriminated people based on caste and the incident i had told happened when this seer was at the head of affairs.However you are justified in having serious doubts about such an allegation of mine.
Sir , i am not blinded by my hatred towards the seer. But i just hate the way , the forum members would like to defend the seer.Hence all my attempts to showcase what could be the deciding evidences in this case.All members here , show no records , no links but state explicitly that this indeed is a xtian operation.
I am confident , that you will be well informed about the way such cases are handled by the courts.Members here are posting material that is grossly against the very country they believe they are working for.If you had a look at the forum today morning , about how us tamils are being described "fools",commies and then to peak it all came a request to divide the nation.
Is this the extent to which the faith in the seer had to go ? Afterall the seer is the not the ultimate hindu leader , we hindus , being not a organised religion , have no such leaders i am inclined to believe.There are many a seers , of them a few who have asked for the seer to step down from his peedam.
You can surely see exactly where all this could lead ? Users in their zeal for their intent to exhibit "hinduism" have made such ignorant posts that they go to extremes just like in the case of another religion.I accuse those members of being inclined towards fundamentalism.
Hopefully you must be aware of the stupid consequences had this statement been directed towards a dravidinist ! It goes towards justifying his claim for a seperate nation.Such is exactly the service of the members here and i openly accuse them of being ignorant and blind about facts and in the end their works going down the gutter against this land..Do you still think i am not doing something for the good ?
If at all i have to prove my patriotism , i wish some members visit my blog and may be even other forums where i make posts.I am consciously making an effort to instill some knowledge about our history and am even working towards a decent website.I am sure the admin Rhytha knows about my "services" to the religion in "other areas" of the internet too.He in one instance stumbled unto me , without himself knowing my identity to help my "cause".
My posts under screen name "amarnath" are here to speak volumes of my character. You have indeed praised me on one occassion.
Sir at the end , my sentiments towards this country labelled India , whose name i have lesser liking in favour of Bharatha are FAR FAR bigger and comes nowhere near the sentiments i have for my religion.PERIOD
My accusations still stand. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 19 2004, 09:58 AM | ||||
Far from it .
I can easily post here a link which states that it was indeed the defendants side which asked for the video to be stopped.
http://www.dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=149438&disdate=11/19/2004
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| Posted by: Administrator Nov 19 2004, 10:31 AM |
| samudra_gupta, If you want to discuss religion and its ills do it in another thread. Keep your prejudice to yourself. Refrain from insulting or provoking members here. Admin. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 10:38 AM | ||
What Seer is doing in public and trying to achieve is different than what you have been told by your relatives and what you believe.
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| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 10:50 AM | ||
I found this posted by user "tstsvai" in IC group. Its sort of summary of some media sources.. Interesting read..
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| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 11:06 AM | ||
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/19spec.htm
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| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 11:13 AM | ||
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/19agn1.htm
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| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 11:16 AM | ||
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/19kanchi3.htm
Now its a free for all..
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| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 11:24 AM | ||
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/19kanchi5.htm
This proposal should be squashed immediately. I dont think even the president or the prime minister need be shielded either. Its fun this way. The real fun will begin when some bukhari type beard comes around in Guj and gets dragged and thrown into jail .. Thats when we will hear some real music..  |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 19 2004, 11:41 AM | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
samudra gupta,
It was you who started with the 1987 incident and tried to impute an abominable behaviour to HH and now you want to turn the table on those who defended him. You made the very first reference in Page # 2 (Nov. 13 at 9:49 AM) To me this tactics smacks of the current action of the TN PP, Police and the Govt. who have been similarly seemingly spreading falsehood to destroy the reputation of HH.
May be you did not make attempts. How can you thrust your failure on others and claim as though nobody made any attempt to find out. I have posted the Frontline interview of 1987 to quote HH himself as to what happened. The "attempts" that you claim others are making to "portray HH in good light" is because you started the "attempt to show HH in bad light".
No. You meant it that way. Like the TN PP, Police and the Govt. your attempts so far have been to
These have been presented ad nauseum. Every so-called evidence has been found to be ridden with gaping holes, be it the unsigned letter, be it the cash disbursement, be it the cell-phone contacts, be it the "confession" by Kadhiravan to the police.
Since when has the "burden of proof" fallen on the accused in Indian Criminal Procedure Act ? In any case, I am pretty sure that it will emerge during the course of this case. Remember that the interested parties had many months to fabricate a case. The Defence has been at it for only 4 days so far to unravel the mystery. Their primary concern is to mitigate the immediate hardship to HH and take up the counter offensive slowly but surely.
Exactly the same proof that prompts you to accuse HH an "undeserving criminal", a "liar" etc..
No, it is not because all the commies, The Hindu and other media have an anti-HH axe to grind and are UNTRUSTWORTHY, to say it charitably.
Why should anybody trust unsigned letters and what is so authoritative about them anyways ? Many people could have written such things. In any case, if Mr. Sankarraman had not been part of the Mutt ever since CS passed away, from where did he get all the "authoritative" details that you wax eloquent about ? If an unconnected person could talk about these, that means there is an "inspired" leak and in that case this whole edifice crumbles. There is every reason then to inquire that"leak".
From my post earlier, it is very clear that Mr. Sankarraman had feuds with a lot of people. There have been some thefts in the VaradaRaja Swamy Temple also which he had complained about to the Police.
Aren't you indulging in arguments to prove your point ? The trouble with you, samudra gupta is that you feel that the PP, Police, TN Govt and yourself cannot be wrong. It need not be so and it is not so.
It is as much a fact as yours, the PP's, the Police's and the TN Govt's accusing the HH. If nothing has been proved yet, why all these attempts to depict the HH as a "most undeserving criminal" ? Do you expect that the HH should not have a defence ?
Pray, what reason(s) could it/they be apart from all the castles-in-the-air built so far and blown away ? Please share them with us rather than keeping them for later use as the TN PP and Police seem to be doing right now. They pretended, and the CM stated in the Assembly, that they have "shocking evidence", but so far nothing worthwhile has been presented.
I am reminded of the snake-mongoose fights in India. The snake charmer would threaten to pit the two in fight butwould never do it. You repetaedly referred to it as though you knew the details. Even in this quote, you claim it was "criminal". Why don't you explain the nature of the crime to the expectant audience waiting with bated breath ever since you alluded to this on 13th Nov. ?
You also claim that the seer had not spoken about this. A few posts above, I have given the URL from Frontline refrring to HH's interview on this precise subject. If you continue to insist on the "silence from HH", there is but only one way of describing such an intransigence.
You may beleive in anything and that is your prerogative. Affidavits by the police mean "to the best of their knowledge". That's all. Nothing is proved conclusively. Those who want to see a ghost see it in every shadow. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 12:10 PM | ||
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=38622
JJ faces a problem too. If congi is in power it will align with DMK and with this NDA wont align with JJ (or so it would seem right now). This reduces TN's leverage in dilli. |
| Posted by: Sriman Nov 19 2004, 12:33 PM |
| Samudra Gupta, I have to laugh -- you say it indeed is criminal, what JS did in 1987. What exactly did he do, what criminal act did he commit? Remember, you said indeed it is criminal so YOU are the one who needs to specify. I repeat -- what criminal act did JS commit when he left the mutt in 1987? Remember, you were the one who raised it first, so you enlighten us. Also, this fleeing to Nepal bit -- how often does the defense have to say it is bogus? Just because the defense does not repeat the denial every day, does not mean it must be true. Have you thought about this -- it [the fleeing bit] is so absurd, that it is not worth repeating everyday. Forget the nonsense given by the TN police, what with "was heard to say in Telugu" etc etc. The TN police will claim anything - whether it is true or provably true is different altogther. Also, this Bangalore bit -- you claimed you did not know about it, so earlier once in this thread two people posted links -- yet, once again, you later claimed the same thing. That is why your credibility is close to zero, if not already zero. |
| Posted by: ramana Nov 19 2004, 01:00 PM | ||
Might already be posted. But has my highlights.
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| Posted by: Administrator Nov 19 2004, 01:36 PM |
| http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=568&s= By Prof Ramesh Rao |
| Posted by: G.Subramaniam Nov 19 2004, 02:19 PM |
| Prayag teerth Swami who wants the kanchi sankaracharya to resign is an agent of islamists like the fake puri Sankaracharya Adhokshananda This Prayag guy was in a public meeting with Jamaat-e-Islami and Sandeep Pandey and Mani Shankar Iyer and the Sabrang crowd G.S |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 19 2004, 02:58 PM | ||
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/67383 |
| Posted by: factsdigger Nov 19 2004, 05:56 PM |
| Could you post the link for gossip thread? I couldn't find it. I will change the name as suggested. Thanks. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 06:11 PM |
| Here is the link for gossip thread http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=571&s= |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 19 2004, 06:24 PM |
| Seer in police custody; BJP announces stir The Hindu November 19, 2004 Kancheepuram/New Delhi, Nov. 19. (PTI): A Kancheepuram court today remanded Kanchi Sankaracharya Sri Jayendra Saraswathi to three days police custody for interrogation in a murder case. Passing orders on a police petition, First Class Judicial Magistrate, G Uttamaraja, said the police custody would be from 12:05 p.m. today to 10:30 a.m. on November 22. The Shankacharya was arrested on November 11 at Mehboobnagar in Andhra Pradesh in connection with the September 3 murder of local temple official Sankaramaran. A total of 18 persons, including the seer, have been arrested in the case so far. Last evening, after hearing the prosecution and defence arguments, the magistrate had reserved his orders for today. The Kanchi seer was taken to the all women police station in Kancheepuram district police complex. Mediapersons were not allowed entry into the complex. "I am satisfied that there are sufficient grounds for granting police custody for interrogation of the accused. It is just and necessary for investigation. Jayendra Saraswathi is hereby ordered to be granted to police custody from 12.05 p.m. of 19/11/2004 to 10.30 a.m. on 22/11/2004," the Magistrate said. Delivering his verdict at 11.45 a.m., the Magistrate said the accused could nominate a lawyer of his choice 'to meet him' at the place of interrogation between 6.00 p.m. and 7.00 p.m. each day of his police custody. He also directed that a government doctor check the seer's health every day. Later, one of Jayendra's lawyers, Y T Thyagarajan, said that advocate V Krishnaswamy, a member of the Thanjavur Bar Association, has been nominated by the defence to meet the Seer during his police custody period. BJP agitation from tomorrow Meanwhile in New Delhi, an agitated BJP today announced the launch of a three-day nationwide stir from tomorrow against the police remand of Kanchi Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati. Former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and party President L K Advani have also planned a dharna and fast. The BJP accused both the Tamil Nadu government and the Centre of "assaulting and insulting Hindu religion". Advani is to lead a daylong dharna and observe fast here tomorrow, followed by senior leaders Murli Manohar Joshi and Jaswant Singh on the subsequent days to protest against the Kanchi Seer being sent to three-day police custody. Vajpayee will join the stir on Monday, party spokesperson Sushma Swaraj told reporters here, adding that the decision was taken at an emergency meeting of the party attended by top leadership. Vajpayee, Advani to meet Seer during custody The party also decided that Vajpayee and Advani would meet the pontiff during his police custody, she said adding the BJP President was planning to do so on Sunday. Swaraj, whose party fought the last Lok Sabha polls in alliance with AIADMK, alleged that Tamil Nadu government's motive was to "defame" the Sankaracharya "just because of votes". "It is not a matter of an individual but an assault on and insult of our religion," she alleged, insisting that the seer had been framed in a "totally false and baseless" case. |
| Posted by: eswarpr Nov 19 2004, 09:47 PM |
| The karma phala would haunt this state / country and the people involved very soon enough. I hope I could see it when I am alive. As lord krishna says: Inaction with the knowledge of action amounts to sin. We have to do our duty, we cannot shy away from it. The duty of the people is to act and react, not sit and do nothing. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 19 2004, 10:50 PM |
| On 22nd BHP/VHP etc had announced Bharat bandh. Protest in Sunnyvale temple is good way to protest. Yes, this adharmic karma will haunt Jaya and others involved. I am sure i am going to see. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 19 2004, 10:50 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I for one , did start the thing about 1987 and am completly aware of what i post.Why i had to post it again , was because it was said that the seer was never involved in any controversy.The answer was posted to THAT POST.That is all.You wish to infer non-existant motives behind them , i cannot help it.
I have earlier stated that the police are under no consitutional obligations to present all their records now.It would make easier for the defence counsels to manipulate them as they had did (utterly failed , that is another matter) with the way police arrested and treated him.That is a established procedure and has been explicitly stated in the affidavit.
Had that been the case , the high courts of chennai would not take such long time to consider the bail plea of the acharya and moreover , if that had been the case the kanchipuram courts cannot grant police custody.This is exactly what one can infer from the way the courts handle the things.
It was seen in the high court when the defence counsel requested that the CD be stopped and that the shown video was enough
I included hindu leaning journals like Tughlak,DInamalar too.
Again you are not aware of the authoritative details shankaraman has produced in his letter, hence the lack of understanding of the issue and accusations the victim has made.
Agreed , but no criminals are confessing about others , and there are only records of cash transfers to these criminals only from the mutt.
Yourself have answered your question.It would be correct to state it need not be so , but it is without logic to claim it is not so.
Far from it , the acharya was granted and should be granted all rights as per constitutional guidelines.He enjoys the same.
It is not required on the part of the police to expose the evidence at this juncture and will do so when required.
Deserting the mutt , is again not worth calling by any other name.Dats akin to deserting the army.
Infact to make my point clear ,your post appeared while i was typing in another post.You could ask someone , anyone about his acts in 1987.Period.
Thanks , that what i have been saying.The seer could be guilty contrary.
Replied above.Deserting the mutt , when he could have done whatever he wished to from the mutt in his capacity as a junior seer.The CS , none whomsoever knew about his desertion.He installed VS as his next heir but then JS returned.To this day there are titles like "pudhu-periyavar" , "periyavar" known in the mutt circles.
How about the flight plans filed now in the courts ?
Thanks for exhibiting your love for the seer , nothing wrong about it .
[Admin : Edited
last warning to you, your posting privilege will be revoked] |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 19 2004, 11:03 PM | ||
You are right about my dwelling into religion , but that post was mean/directed only to Kaushalji and may be i should have used other channels to communicate with him.Once kaushalji replies , i would not think twice to delete that post if you deem it required.
However , the assumption of an existing "prejudice" towards the seer , is an allegation which on the face of it ,considered with the posts i have made , might seem true.Far from it , i have explicitly stated that nothing has been proved yet and i am sure , my post , all of them in this thread have exposed whatever i could find in the local media to the members here.
If the complaint that i provoke users do arise because of my post in reply to kaushalji , again it has been grossly misunderstood similar to my intent in posting such stuff and i would like to re-iterate , that such a post was made only for Kaushal to point out to him about the way posts were being here and to find out his opinion regarding posts that were made with little thought behind them.
That is all.
I do not wish to provoke others , on the contrary references , to be correct , derogatory references were made to my username and the queries being raised about my religious activities just because i make posts , which are not in unison with what others have to post here and toes the lines of the prosecution.I wish not to report them , since i am convinced they would stand testimony to the quality of certain posts made here. |
| Posted by: eswarpr Nov 19 2004, 11:56 PM |
SG is doing the thing that the so called "secularists" do all the time. Tell a lie a thousand times, it will become truth. I am seeing shades of such agenda in his posts. You can see it when he keeps on telling the same thing like a parrot, even when so many members ask him questions. He shys away from answering to the point and keeps going round and round the same thing without basis of facts and figures.
It is like the following dialogue:
"I saw a ghost"
"where?"
"I saw a ghost"
"where is the ghost?"
"I saw a ghost"
"OK NOW YOU ARE TICKING ME OFF. WHERE THE HELL IS THE GHOST?"
"Why are you getting angry? This means you are a BJP/RSS/Castiest Fascist Brahmin. There is no proof that I didn't see a ghost, so I saw a ghost!"
Satyameva Jayathe
|
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 20 2004, 12:11 AM |
| I agree. There is no point in trying to reason with SG, you will just endup wasting your time. He might be a DMK/ADMK supporter or a hadrdcore fan of JJ that he can't believe that she could do anything wrong. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 20 2004, 12:49 AM |
| http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411201117.htm?headline=Acharya's~arrest:~Congress~questions~Jayalalithaa |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 20 2004, 02:29 AM |
| http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/928751.cms |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 20 2004, 03:21 AM |
| http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/20kanchi.htm |
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 20 2004, 08:38 AM |
| http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEH20041119232901&Page=H&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=337& http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEK20041118041727&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=337& http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEK20041120010026&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=337& http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=38662&headline=Madras~HC~rejects~seer's~bail~plea |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 20 2004, 09:04 AM | ||
rajesh_g @
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| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 20 2004, 10:36 AM |
| http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13613397 Posting in full (not sure about archives) From Sify Home >> News & Info >> News >> Other News >> Fullstory sms news It's all like a nightmare, laments junior pontiff By TSV Hari in Kancheepuram Friday, 19 November , 2004, 18:15 Two words can aptly describe the expression on the face of Shankara Vijayendra Saraswati, the junior pontiff of the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham. Stunned disbelief. The quest to meet the junior seer began nearly 18 hours before this report was filed. As a matter of policy, the Mutt has now learnt to forget the existence of the contraption called mobile phone. As a believer in the Hindu faith, and as a devotee of the Mutt, this journalist wanted to hear from the present centre of power of the 2500 year old institution what it was all about. The terse reply on a landline connection said, 'Come before 9.00 am tomorrow.' At 8:45 am, the Mutt was almost deserted. But for a strong contingent of policemen outside the Mutt, and three old hands at the place, there was an eerie silence - a far cry from the usual hustle and bustle that one normally associates with the institution. Editor's Choice 'Seer should resign' Hindu psyche shaken Demand for CBI probe The junior seer spotted this scribe and immediately stopped for a few words. It began with innocent incredulity. "Why has the press suddenly turned so hostile towards us?" the junior seer asked the question not as a rhetoric. It was obvious that he is yet to come to terms with a medium called television which captured his visuals and juxtaposed it with diatribe. | Full Coverage: Arrest of Kanchi Shankaracharya | "As every hour passes, I am informed that a new series of lies has been said about us. When people started saying that my brother from my previous existence was trying to hide from law, I requested the television crews to come here and take pictures of him. They did that and uttered more untruths," he said. "Now I know better. The press is free to write and show what it wants. I only have one wish now. I just want to see 'my guru' and hear from him what kind of tribulations he is undergoing. The second and third hand information is confusing and threatening at the same time," Vijayendra Saraswati said in an emotional tone. "I have requested the advocates representing us to seek the permission (of magistrate Uttamraj] to enable me to meet my guru in person - a one- to-one meeting. That is all I want for now." "Just tell me, what is the truth about Shankararaman?" this writer asked. "I remember this man vaguely. That is all. All this talk about him being a former employee of the Mutt and everything else is like a nightmare. But why talk about him? The courts can find out the truth. But I have firm belief in one thing. My guru is innocent. Every allegation made against him is untrue." "The outside world doesn't know what kind of rigorous discipline we have and how many rituals we have to perform. Today, various newspapers and television channels show some visual and add a different commentary, totally twisting everything out of context. Some one told me that a television channel said that I was emotional. They showed me brushing off the dust from my eyes, suggesting that I was shedding tears. Tell me, is this journalism?" Devotees of the Mutt began gathering to seek the junior pontiff's blessings before he started his worship - the Chandramouleeshwarar Puja - which lasts a minimum of 140 minutes. The junior seer seemed unaware of the passage of time till he was reminded about it politely. It seemed inappropriate to ask probing questions, because the auspicious minutes were fast approaching. The wait to hear him utter something more seemed interminable though it lasted for just two minutes. "Just request your readers to pray for the release of my guru. I simply want him to be free. Everything else seems so needless for the moment," he said in a matter of fact tone, blessed this scribe, got up and walked away towards the main hall of the Mutt for puja. ***************************************************************** |
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 20 2004, 10:57 AM |
| Its more amma than DMK that is responsible for the Seer's arrest. DMK is just making hay. An atrocity is being committed by police taking him to all-women police station in Kancheepuram for investigation. Looks like amma is out to humiliate him further. That cleary shows amma taking revenge on a alleged comment by JS on amma in a private meeting with some BJP functionaries. It is incidental that KK wrote something similar in his dmk monthly, after which amma got him arrested. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 20 2004, 11:11 AM | ||||||
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Glimpses_XI.htm [Collection of articles on arrest]
|
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 20 2004, 11:54 AM | ||||||||||||||||||
samudra gupta,
Before determining whether my motives were "existent" or "non-existent", I am justified in questioning your motive. You accept that it was you who started the first reference to the 1987 episode. Since you claim that you are "completly aware of what i {i.e. you} post", may I ask you what was your motive at that time ? I cannot see any innocence or absence of motive in such a reference.
That's exactly my understanding too. That's why I claim the evidence presented so far do not constitute anything "hard", because as per your own admission, the police and the PP have not presented all their records now. What do you find wrong in that ?
I can simply turn it around and say that had the police case been strong, the Hon. Judge would not have taken such a long time to decide either. It should have been a cakewalk for the Police, the PP and the Govt. of TN, as they made it appear with their announcement of "shocking evidence" etc.
When I made reference to the "gaping holes" in Prosecution, I was not arguing about the bail petition at the High Court or the Petition at Kanchipuram against remand specifically. My reference was made in the overall perspective. You are simply tearing off my arguments out of context and trying to use them to your advantage at a place where it suits you. Looks like the same tactics adopted by the TN Police. Anyways, now that you have done it, let me explain. When it suits you, you claim that the police had not presented all the documentary evidence and are only going by a prima-facie establishment of complicity & conspiracy etc {not exactly your words, but the implication is unmistakable overall}. Otherwise you claim, that the quashing of defence petition against remand proves hard evidence. Don't you see the obvious contradiction ? Also, how can anything be hard without supporting and corroborative documentation ?
I am sorry. This is not borne out by facts. Yesterday, I posted th true pro-DMK Dinakaran to disprove the above. I have one more from http://dinamalar.com/2004nov19/imp40.asp (Translation)
Next, in order to prove that these accusations were incorrect, the prosecution played the video recording of the arrest of Jeyendrar in the presence of the Judge. The prosecution lawyer K.Durisamy reiterated that the Judge should allow the playing of the video footage to prove that the guidelines of the Supreme Court had been followed. After that the video clipping was played. It was shown for 10 minutes. It included scenes of Police officers informing Jeyendrar about the arrest in his room, Jeyendrar's questioning of that, and the taking out of cellphone. When it continued, the Judge said "it is enough" and ordered the video to be switched off.
I have quoted from Dinamalar above. I do not have access to Tughlak. But, I heard that today Cho made the following in an NDTV discussion:
The late Mr. Sankarraman was not part of the Mutt for more than 25 years ever since he joined the Sri Varadaraja Swamy Temple. How did he get to know the Mutt details ? Who says that whatever Mr. Sankarraman said are genuine and are criminal in nature ?
It is completely logical because no question asked by so many in this forum has elicited any answer from you, leave alone satisfactory answers.
A mountain is made out of a mole-hill and repeated attempts are being made to build the appearance of a great criminal act by HH. It is being sneakingly inserted that the Mutt "had kept silent" about this. HH himself had explained what exactly happened. The Maha Periyavar, CS, was a stickler for sampradaya and he is widely accepted by even his detractors as a great sanyasi. Such a person himself had re-accepted JS into the fold and anointed him once again. I could see only one motive in such repeated references to the 1987 episode and it needs no prizes for a guesswork. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 20 2004, 12:46 PM |
| http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20041129&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3 - Outlook India |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 20 2004, 12:53 PM | ||
Somebody please throw light on this. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 20 2004, 01:30 PM |
| Mudy, The Palani temple, in southern TN, is a very famous and holy Hindu temple. The moola Vigraha (i.e the vigraha installed in the sanctum-sanctorum for which abishekam and pooja are performed) had had some damage and this was known for a long time. There is a perception that HH influenced Her Highness, Madam JJ to replace the statue. I do not think the statue was eventually changed, But I may be incorrect here. There are various rules in the agama about installation of statues etc. and some people are saying that HH is unaware of those. There is a related controversy that DMK and a few others have stirred up, that is to do with Tamizh language. They claim that Khumbabishekam or consecration of a renovated or new temple must be done only in Tamizh and not in Sanskrit. HH supports Sanskrit. |
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 20 2004, 01:48 PM |
| The following link has some info http://www.hindu.com/2004/01/29/stories/2004012907740400.htm |
| Posted by: G.Subramaniam Nov 20 2004, 03:48 PM |
| 1987 'Desertion' of mutt by JS ------- My cousin is a long term activist in Kanchi mutt charities and is aware of the inside issues of 1987 In 1987, JS left the Kanchi mutt and spent several days with Swami Dayananda Saraswati of Arsha Vaidya Gurukulam and currently head of Dharma Acharya Council, which is trying to unify hindu acharyas The Social activities of Kanchi mutt took off after this consultation in which JS felt the need to bring the mutt into socio-educational programs of the general populace During his 'absence' he consulted with several other senior acharyas of various sampradayas of the need to get into socio-economic activities too G.S |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 20 2004, 05:31 PM | ||
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story8%2Etxt&counter_img=8
Not sure how this is archived. So posting in full..
|
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 20 2004, 05:42 PM |
| Not sure about their archival process, so article in full... ------- http://www.whatisindia.com/editorials/wis2..._does_it_mean_to_be_a_hindu_in_india.html Unease grows in the hearts of common Indians as they watch a revered saint being arrested and humiliated What is India News Service November 19, 2004 The arrest and remand of an individual of ascetic stature and the head of one of India's most affluent mutts has led to the beginnings of a deeper analysis of what it means to be a Hindu in India. Leaving aside the rooftop cheers of rabid anti-Hindu and anti-Brahmin outfits like the DMK, whose leader is commonly known as a ruthless politician with no scruples, the political bluster of ministers and those seeing the developments as a means to garnering the limelight for themselves, there is a growing unease in the hearts of common Indians. To add to it is the unbelievable silence of the prime minister and the chief minister of Tamil Nadu, whose policemen arrested the seer. What does it mean to be a Hindu in India anymore? It seems to mean that the heavy books of law will be thrown at you literally and figuratively. That you, by virtue of being a so-called majority, are denied the exceptions and the accommodations made for all others, that you will be called a murderer even though the public prosecutor has failed to provide adequate evidence against you and is fumbling and asking for more time. Guilty before proven innocent Acknowledged murderers like Veerappan, who have taken the lives of our policemen, security personnel, innocent villagers and anyone who stood in their way, are lauded as "Chandana Veerappan" and "Robin Hood." The incestuous circle comes to a tight close. Laura Kelly, in an article titled H H Sri Jayendra Saraswati - A Victim of Gutter Politics of Tamilnadu, says Veerappan had links with Karunanidhi. The editor of the Tamil magazine Nakkeran, who also had contacts with Veerappan, published a news item about Sankararaman's murder. He had been in contact with Sankararaman. As Balbir Kunj writes in The Pioneer, "While, ironically, the same DMK is celebrating Kanchi Shankaracharya's humiliating midnight arrest, the 'secularists' and self-proclaimed human rights activists are busy rationalising the sordid drama in the name of "rule of law" and "equality before the law". Those (the Left and other "secularists") who are now quoting the rules have no respect either for the law or the Constitution." Anuradadha Dutt says in the same paper, "Shortly after the news of the arrest of Kanchi Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati broke, a shocked politico observed on a news channel that though there were numerous cases pending against the Jama Masjid Shahi Imam, no one had dared to arrest him for fear of upsetting the Muslims." As thought this were not enough to raise public suspicion, now comes a glaring slap of a judgment in another murder case against a PMK leader. How different is the Panruti MLA from the seer? Shouldn't the law be applied equally? The Hindu reported, "The Madras High Court today granted anticipatory bail to the Pattali Makkal Katchi MLA from Panruti, T. Velmurugan, who is an accused in a murder case. He was directed to stay in Coimbatore and sign before the judicial magistrate there daily." And Justice S. Ashok Kumar, while rejecting the plea of Velmurugan's brothers, Thirumavalavan and Kannan, said, "Normally, in a case of murder, anticipatory bail is not granted, except in exceptional cases and for cogent reasons." One would ask, "Does not the very position, prestige and respect the Acharya commands make this an exceptional case? Does not the unprecedented stench of anti-Hindu political wrestling focused on one of the richest Hindu mutts make this an exceptional case? Does not the hasty arrest without due process targeting the leader of a majority of Hindus make this an exceptional case?" Who is the person we are looking at? Is it another common criminal, an individual with criminal cases against him, or a saint with a clean track record to date? Who is this Shankaracharya that the press has been so quick to condemn? What makes them jump to adverse conclusions? Is it media bias? It is well known that Sun TV is owned by the DMK, whose rank and file are celebrating this arrest. Jaya TV is owned by the chief minister of Tamil Nadu and The Hindu has marital connections with the DMK. Their coverage has caused people to question their neutrality, and a group has called for a mass cancellation of subscription to The Hindu. The Shankaracharya's Hindu Brahmin status has made him a target of the DMK and other "atheist" groups, and his unorthodox ideas to integrate modern Indian life and keep the mutt "contemporary" have alienated him from staunch orthodox Hindus. One can see his logic: Tibet remained a "spiritual" country, but isolated from the modern world against the will of the people of that country. Tibet, as it was, no longer exists. The Acharya's proactive stance was perhaps a way to prevent inviolate obsolescence. His proactive forays to gain political representation for the Hindus was the basis of a longstanding misunderstanding between him and the murdered Shankararaman. Rights and wrongs Some state that the arrest could not have been made without the specific authorisation of the Chief Minister, in view of the standing of the mutt worldwide, the high profile enjoyed by Sri Jayendra Saraswati, and the ramifications of such a course of action, and that Jayalalithaa had "been punctilious in respecting the Hindu sentiments and the sanctity of its institutions." Thus, the paper says, there is absolutely "no reason to suspect any ulterior motives on her part, or on the part of the police." Jayalalithaa on Wednesday broke her silence on the arrest, asserting in the Assembly that he had been held on "startling and definite information" about his involvement in a murder case. Lack of evidence "Whether the seer is guilty or not will be known after the court verdict. But whatever "evidence" the prosecution has produced so far, can at best be termed dubious. It is based on cell phone records and the phone does not belong to the Shankaracharya. The money recovered from the alleged killers has been traced to a bank account, not that of the mutt but an NGO. The counsel for the Acharya has clearly stated in interviews with NDTV that the evidence was not conclusive. The public prosecutor has himself requested time to gather his "evidence" What motives? What motive could the Acharya have had? If we are going to speculate that this ascetic will benefit in some way by this murder, make off with crores that are his to control in any case, we should also consider that it is being said that Shankararaman's threatened expose of mutt irregularities caused the acharya to have him murdered. The charge is that the Acharya spoke to hired killers and ordered the murder. Some have called for a cool analysis of the situation. Realistically speaking, a man with as much influence as the Acharya need never have to call a killer, hand over money, and commit murder. Our nation has hundreds of criminals who "distance" themselves from such acts with ease. Any number of people could have killed Shankararaman, including the notorious associates of the Nakkeeran editor whom Shankararaman contacted. This could have been done to frame the Acharya and cause enough chaos to warrant political control of an institution flush with cash. After all, the prime source of unofficial political cash, Veerappan, is dead, and until someone fills his shoes, the cash will cease to flow. The political angle Why did Jayalalithaa give her nod to the midnight arrest of the pontiff in Mahboobnagar on Diwali? Until a few months ago, the Kanchi seer was one of her close advisers. Why did DMK chief Karunanidhi insist on sitting in a dharna for inquiry into Sankararaman's murder? Some assert that Jayalalithaa and her party have been very close to the holy man, so the turn of events is quite startling: "It has to be assumed that a presentable case has been built up against the Sankaracharya, although Ms Jayalalithaa has never been known to be too particular about criminal cases. The electoral drubbing she received after her tie-up with the BJP and her pro-Hindu policies may have forced her to look for ways to rebuild an anti-Brahminical image. At least her action has pre-empted Mr Karunanidhi from making a to-do about the charges against the Kanchi head, and has suggested that she is growing distant from the BJP's Hindutva line" The difference lies in the community the arrested seer belongs to. "The inference was that political compulsions, hinging on wooing minority votes, had cast a protective cordon around the Islamic pontiff, who is notorious as a rabble-rouser In this case, the timing and surreptitious manner of the seer's arrest, on Diwali, followed by a long weekend and Id, another holiday, suggests that something unholy is brewing. For, the closure of the courts and jails in this period ensured that the Shankaracharya could be hurriedly secreted away without hope of redressal until the vacation ended. It was a deliberate move to preempt remedial action on his behalf. Several groups say political parties have their eye on the mutt's coffers. The DMK has gone so far as to suggest that the mutt management should come under a government board. However Jayalalithaa has said she is not interested in taking over the hoary institution. "We want that the mutt should not be defamed. We do not want the mutt to come to a standstill," she said. The aftermath of the arrest of has brought into sharp relief several issues relating to the management of religious mutts in general. While it is true that these organizations control vast sums of money and are not required to report their financial dealings to the public in general, they do not differ in operation to any other religious group world over. However, the political motives seem to be stronger than any the Acharya could have had to be a party to this murder. Apart from the cash involved, there is a lot of control and power associated with the mutt's various organizations. He has reportedly told high-profile visitors that he was a victim of Jayalalithaa's vendetta. The seer reportedly said he had refused to make over a popular and well-established medical school run by the Kanchi Mutt trust to Jayalalithaa, and this had further angered the chief minister. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 20 2004, 07:17 PM |
| Shankaracharya may move apex court Press Trust of India New Delhi, November 20 Kanchi Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati is likely to move the Supreme Court on Sunday challenging the Madras High Court's rejection of his bail petition in the murder case in which he is a prime suspect. Sources said the seer's counsel would file a Special Leave Petition on Sunday and make a 'mention' of it in the apex court on Monday. |
| Posted by: bgravi Nov 20 2004, 08:06 PM | ||
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=59283
|
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 20 2004, 08:06 PM |
| In this weeks junior vikatan , there is a story about how shankaraman recieved money from a rich man , allegedly not to reveal something about the mutt and its reported that he made quite a number of not-so-usual expenditures after this had happened. have exam tomorrow ,got to run. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 20 2004, 08:08 PM |
| err i forgot now one of the prime accused has good relations with arcot veerasamy , former DMK minister.So one might expect some anti-DMK politically motivated arrests too. |
| Posted by: bgravi Nov 20 2004, 08:13 PM |
| Some insights into the Kanchi Mutt... http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=59269 |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 20 2004, 10:15 PM | ||
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| Posted by: Isaivanan Nov 21 2004, 12:11 AM |
| Will Hindus ever rise? http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13614041&headline=Column:~Will~Hindus~ever~rise? By Swapan Dasgupta Sunday, 21 November , 2004, 09:48 Maybe, we have become too inured by predictable images of a dharna. Maybe, our measure of outrage has become unnecessarily conditioned by explosive images of Falujah and Palestine. Or, maybe, the battering ram of aggressive rationalism has pulverised our faith in institutions that personify faith and tradition. Whatever the reality, the sight of the BJP brass trooping out of Rashtrapati Bhavan on Friday night and sitting impassively on a dais in Patel Chowk on Saturday failed to convey the magnitude of the occasion. To the uninitiated, they could well have been demanding the inclusion of Maithili into the VIIIth Schedule or pressing for compensation to the victims of Bihar's rampaging gangs. The issue is not the choreography of dignified protest in a made-in-media society. The real issue, to my mind, is the bewildering lack of mass outrage to a cynical assault on one of India's premier Hindu institutions. Let us accept grim reality for whatever it is worth. The Shankaracharya of Kanchi, a powerful symbol of the sanatan dharma, was arrested on the night of Diwali and charged with murder. He was produced in court the next day, dubbed an "undeserving criminal" by the Public Prosecutor and remanded in police custody. | View full coverage: Kanchi seer's arrest | He was allowed no privileges and lodged in an ordinary jail. When he returned to court three days later, he was mocked for his aversion to rahukalam and his unwillingness to sign documents. As devotees recoiled in horror, police sources fed a hungry media with "evidence" of his mendacity. He was accused of facilitating cash payments to supari killers, of being in telephonic contact with goons and even of plotting an escape by helicopter to Nepal. Discuss: Police should have shown more tact in handling the Kanchi Shankaracharya case The junior Shankaracharya was said to have demanded a CBI probe and, with hints of a monastic coup, it was said that his brother had turned approver. It now transpires that very little of these grave charges can be substantiated. In fact, the police have not even submitted their preliminary evidence to court. You would have imagined that the authorities would have proceeded against a person as revered as the Shankaracharya on the strength of watertight evidence. But no, they arrested and humiliated him on suspicion. The reasons lie in the vagaries of Dravidian politics, particularly the competitive inclination to invoke anti-Brahmin sentiment. Regardless of what happens in the trial, the anti-Hindus have proceeded on the assumption that there is no worthwhile Hindu sentiment. A Hindu nation, divided along caste, regional and denominational lines, it is believed, will stomach any indignity. Discuss: Should we bring in religious sentiments into a legal issue? Judging from the muted response to the arrest, the secularists may well be right. There is disquiet that the Shankaracharya was treated shabbily and there is pain that a premier Hindu institution has been brought into disrepute. But equally, there is astonishing passivity. The Shankaracharya of Puri may claim that the assault on his Kanchi counterpart is a "blow to the existence and ideology of Hindus" but the average Hindu still believes this is an overstatement. Hindus have ceased to react as Hindus. Yet, Hindus have not ceased to believe and conduct themselves as Hindus in their private lives. It is just that they have abdicated the public space to secularists and organised minorities. It is an abdication that has happened by default. The claimants to the Hindu public space have erroneously focussed on the traditional institutions of the faith. Unfortunately, institutions like the Kanchi mutt have become identified with a narrow Brahmanical order. In being wedded to orthodoxy, they have never had the temperament to be defenders of the faith. The popular energies of Hinduism have traditionally vested in the little traditions, epitomised by the living Gods. It is these sects, headed by the charismatic individuals who we see on the Astha channel and on God TV, who are keeping popular Hinduism alive. To be effective, Hindu politics has to connect with this evangelical Hindu energy. What we witnessed last week is either a wake-up call to Hindus or proof that we can be kicked around with impunity. The lessons are up to us. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 21 2004, 12:34 AM | ||
Wow! Now SG says there could be anti-DMK politically motiviated arrests. But arrest of Shankaracharya is NOT politically motivated. What a logic! |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 21 2004, 05:16 AM |
| Template - whip out your quills!
Appeal by the Hindu Community of |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 21 2004, 05:53 AM |
| (fwded) ---------- Kanchi Mutt's Welfare Activities A Humble Endeavour in the Service of Humanity Issued in the interest of Public Awareness and Protection of Dharma by Sri Kanchi Karnakoti Peetam, Kanchipuram. kanchimutt@k... www.kamakoti.org (Praying for the security, safety, health and immediate release of His Holiness Pujyasri JayendraSaraswathi Sankaracharya Swamiji, various prayer meetings, mass chantings of Vishnu Sahasranama Parayanam, Hanuman Chalisa, Kanda Sashti Kavacham and Veda Parayanam are being held in several places, under the guidance of HH Pujyasri Sankara Vijayendra Saraswathi Sankaracharya Swamiji. All devotees are requested to participate and offer prayers. Our email: kanchimutt@k... ) 11 Educational Institutions 15 Vedic Educational Institutions 43 Hospitals / Healthcare Centres 110 Mutts/ Community Centres 209 Welfare Centres Source: Kanchi Kosh, 2003 ? 2004 One Guiding Spirit… His Holiness Sri Jayendra Saraswati Swamigal Behind His simple and approachable demeanour lies 51 years of hard work and sacrifice in the service of the common man. It is His vision that helped the Mutt reach beyond the borders of spiritual matters, to provide relief and succour to the needy and the poor. A quick glimpse of the activities of the Acharya in the last 51 years ? in the field of Education, Vedic Research, Healthcare, Social Welfare and Religion ? will speak volumes of the enormous good work done. Education Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswati Vishwa Maha Vidyalaya near Kanchipurarn is a Deemed University. It conducts Graduate and Postgraduate programmes in Arts, Science, Engineering, Computer Applications and Business Management. An Ayurvedic College devoted to Indian medicine forms part of the Vishwa Maha Vidyalaya. The Deemed University is just one amongst the many educational institutions across the country, run under the guidance of the Mutt. Sankara Schools and Oriental Schools located in almost every district of Tamil Nadu impart modem education tempered with a traditional flavour. Vedic Education and Support Veda Patashala located on the Bangalore Highway is perhaps the largest Vedic Patashala in the world, with several hundred students, and teaches all four Vedas. Agasma Patashalas and Silpa Patashalas give a fillip to temple design and architecture. Healthcare The Mutt’s foray into Healthcare truly reflects the Acharya's compassion, care and commitment to serving the ailing, poor and needy. The Kanchi Kamakoti Sankara Hospital, Katichi Kamakoti CHILDS Trust Hospital, Sankara Dev Netralaya, Guwahati, Sri Mata Trust are just a few of those shining examples. The Mutt stepped in at the right time to turn around the CHILDS Trust Hospital. Today, the CHILDS Trust Hospital has not only turned around but is also one of the finest paediatric hospitals in the country. Almost 1,00,000 children receive treatment at this hospital every year. The Sankara Hospital, since its recommissioning under the Mutt in May 2003, has treated 1,75,928 patients free, including providing for food and medicines. This figure represents almost 85% to 90% of its patient intake. Sri Mata Trust is a unique organisation that supports poor cancer patients and their relatives with shelter and food during the treatment period. Sankara Dev Netralaya started at Guwahati is an exemplary eye care institution and the My me of As kind in the northeastern part of the country. In addition, He encouraged the setting up of primary healthcare centres in rural areas to provide low cost medical relief to rural folk and tribals who can ill-afford expensive treatment. Renovating Old Temples and Consecrating New Ones The Acharya has performed over 6000 Kumbabhishekams to revive old temples and consecrate new ones. The Acharya also initiated efforts towards the upkeep and renovation of temples across the length and breadth of India. Social and Humanitarian Services Several homes for the aged, the destitute and the needy are run under the auspices of the Mutt. There are also homes for the handicapped, one in Haridwar and another at Kanchipuram. Encouraging Culture, Arts, Science and Public Service The Kanchi Mutt has had a long tradition of supporting the arts and encouraging artistes from all the fields. Saint of the Masses The Acharya has travelled more than a million kilometres on foot reaching more than 3000 villages and small towns. He has been one of the first ones to reach areas hit by natural calamities like floods and earthquakes with help for the affected. The simple, selfless Saint of the masses is now facing an outrageous charge. Such a charge is directed against the very Acharya whose compassion has reached millions with His helping hand. It is indeed the darkest hour for His devotees and those interested in following the tenets of Hindu Dharma. When our hearts are filled with sadness and eyes with tears, it is only appropriate to quote the Mahaswami himself and draw solace from his words. "A scientific mind seeks an explanation for everything, because science promotes the concept of 'cause and the effect. When something goes wrong and you do not find an explanation that you can understand, you are confused. That is why people seek answers through horoscopes, tantra and mantra. The best solution, however, lies in leaving it to God and continue to act in faith and Bhakti. This will lighten the mind, clear the confusion and give us the strength to do the right things even in very difficult times. With the Blessings of the Mahaswami, this dark hour too shall pass. As He has pointed out, we will continue in our efforts with courage, commitment and steadfastness. All the good work initiated by the Mahaswami and implemented by His prathama Sishya continues in spite of this hour of test ? a test for every believer in Hindu Dharma and its tenets. Dharma is His food. Compassion is His clothing. And the open sky is His shelter. What has He not done far the Nation in His 51 yews of selfless service? The number of hospitals He helped build for the poor and the needy, the number of schools He opened for the vast multitudes of underprivileged children around the country, the countless dilapidated temples He restored, the higher educational institutions and universities He created in accordance with global standards, all stand testimony to His vision, benefiting millions of people. He is a Swami with traditional values and modem ideas. His Mutt is in Kanchipuram, but His heart beats for the entire country. Who else has travelled over a million kilometres on foot, visited over 3000 villages, understood the needs and pulse of people, raised the resources to give them their needs and empathised with them? Swamiji's words and deeds have been a solace to millions of hearts ? rich and poor, entrepreneurs and businessmen, leaders and followers. He is above all castes and creeds, and millions of his followers come from every religious belief ?Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains ? you name them. From India and even abroad. There are dark clouds on the horizon – which like all other clouds will disappear one day. Meanwhile, every one of us at Kanchi Mutt, committed to the values He cherishes most and inspired by Him, shall carry on the mission with even more commitment and devotion. The tradition and commitment to serve the communities will continue. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 21 2004, 06:16 AM |
| rhytha was asking what the mathas do. Clearly they do a lot. The question is whether it is perceived to be useful. Generally when Brahmanas do something worthwhile as far as voluntary effort is concerned it rarely gets any mention unlike a European such as Mother teresa, never mind that she skimped on giving the dying any medicine much less provide them an ambulance to take them to a hospital. I would like the views of forumites on what more should the mathas do and how they stack up against Churches as far as the quality of their work etc. |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 21 2004, 06:57 AM | ||
An off the cuff thought - Keeping contemporary realities in mind, and peculiar political schools of thought of India, Mathams probably need a "Public Relations" arm associated with it.
Then again, should we really use "church" as a benchmark? or are we using the perception of what a church does as a benchmark? |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 21 2004, 07:41 AM | ||
This is the way to go. Kudos to Dalits and let the divisions disappear. Whatever the quarrels may be, when the time beckons all hindus should unite!
http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=43654
|
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 21 2004, 08:00 AM |
| Kaushalji, Here is my humble list (they are doing some of the things but i expect a greater thrust). * More importance to propagation of the hindu cultural heritage more (not that they are not doing it) to the common man. Matam's publication should be looked upon by the common man as the guide to Hinduism * Given their acharya's scholostic knowledge take the fight to the people who ridicule Hinduism like Wendy et all. * There are still a lot of puradhana temples in TN, which dont have income even to light lamps, sponsor those temple * Use the matam's influence to take control of the temple from the Govt's Hindu endowment board, pay better salary to the priests so that they don't go begging for money to the devotees. On account of the Govt control of the matam (temples in TN open like a Govt office at 8:30 instead of early in the morning. I can attest personally to a lot of temple run by the Hindu endonment board. * The matam has done the above for some temples but they could do more. * Lot of Govt land have been taken over by people on lease who never pay their rent. Take the fight to them. Incidentally Sankar raman was doing this with DMK thugs who refused to pay the rent. * Give spirtual discources on the relevance of hindu dharma in day to day life, reach the people. * Instead of the matam getting directly involved in running colleges, hosptitals use their industrialist devotees, bigwigs to run them like what they do with Sri Venkateswara engineering college (run by SPIC, blessed by the Matam) , Hindu mission Hospitals., Shankar Nethralaya before it was taken over by the Matam. Again , i repeat that they are doing a lot of the above said things, and Acharyas are in a better position to decide their priorities as they listen to the divine call. But most people (it is not only Rytha) except some iyers and chettiars that the matam does not touch their common lives who feel this and and i can attest to the fact this is not entirely because of the dravidian influence. Inspite of the kazhagam's influence in TN which was predominant till 70s, Hinduism has made a big comeback. The crowd in temples in TN will attest to the that. Most people in TN understand that kazhagms tirade against hinduism is all hogwash and most kazhaga kanmanigal (party cadres and leaders) fear and Pray God! But what the influence has done is, it kept the people away from uniting on Hindu lines or identifying things as Hindu cause. JS has been taking up to the Dalits, but they are only a minority. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:21 AM |
| http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1115382,000600010001.htm Press Trust of India New Delhi, November 21 Describing Kanchi Sankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati's arrest as "painful", Hindu spiritual leader Mata Amritanandamayi on Sunday hoped that the seer's "ordeal" passed of as a "bad dream." "It is painful to learn about the arrest of Kanchi Acharya. It seems like a bad dream and may it continue to be nothing more than that...," she said. "The arrest should not weaken the lineage of the Advaita philosopher and saint Adi Shankara, whose order has helped to preserve the Vedas and its associated culture," she said in a release in New Delhi. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:23 AM |
| Kanchi seer against moving SC Press Trust of India Chennai, November 21 The Kanchi seer Jayendra Saraswathi, now in police custody in Kancheepuram, has asked his lawyers not to move the Supreme Court against the Madras High Court order denying him the bail, according to Mutt sources. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:24 AM |
| http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1115806,001301410000.htm |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:26 AM |
| Day 2: Bapu fasts continues in protest against seer's treatment -Pioneer Asaram Bapu joined the BJP leaders in a fast to protest the 'uncivilised' treatment meted out to the Shankaracharya of Kanchi mutt. "Those responsible for torture of holymen are cursed. Sant Sataye Teeno Jaaye, Bal, Budhi aur Vansh," Bapu said on Sunday in his discourse as his devotees heard him spellbound. |
| Posted by: acharya Nov 21 2004, 11:29 AM |
| Most people in TN understand that kazhagms tirade against hinduism is all hogwash and most kazhaga kanmanigal (party cadres and leaders) fear and Pray God! But what the influence has done is, it kept the people away from uniting on Hindu lines or identifying things as Hindu cause. This explains it all. They are trying to prevent the formation of a solid hindu political voice in TN and by these attacks they have made the hindu political voice defensive |
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 21 2004, 02:12 PM | ||
Acharya garu,
It could read they have than "are". The whole DK, DMK movement till the 70s have prevented the solid hindu political voice from forming and that is the reason for absence of protest to the arrest in TN. The movement made Hinduism a personal thing and not a social phenomenom per se. Another thing to note is that Tamil nadu was hardly ruled or raided by muslim rulers (leaving alone certain pockets like arcot) as they were protected by marathas and hence they was no need to unite on Hindu or even tamil lines.
FWIW, and for those who read tamil
http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2004/nov/24112004/jv0301.htm (the same as mentioned by Samudra Gupta.
Summary: The letter war b/w Sankarraman and JS was going on for 4 years and last year SR accepted 8 lakhs by an industrialist for not writing letter against JS. After taking the 8 lakhs he became even more aggressive in writing letters. Police is questioning these claims more to see why money was paid to Sankarraman
http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2004/nov/24112004/jv0101.htm
Gist: A builder in Chennai by the name Ravi Subramaniam was the one who arranged Appu in the murder. Appu claimed to his buddies after a phone call that he has been speaking to JS after getting getting drunk in a bar with his friends. An uninformed policeman who was following him picked up the conversation and linked the murder connection to JS! The police then tracked all his cell phones (he has 10 or so connection) and the police feels that the telephone calls as being strong evidence.
But Ravi subramaniam and appu gave a slip inspite of the police tracking all the cell phones. (the mystery is after tracking all his activities, how did they give a slip to the police). Ravi subramaniam is the building contractor for the teachers college being built by the mutt. The mutt has paid some lakhs to him for building the teachers college (now we understand why the mutt paid money to him as he is the building contractor), which he used to finance the murder. |
| Posted by: AJay Nov 21 2004, 02:43 PM |
| From previous thread by quote from Kaushal (Note: I quoting in it's entirety as this is one of the most important statements which explains succinctly what I feel and many others around me feel but are unable to put it so well). -------------------------------------- Kaushal Posted: Nov 15 2004, 10:28 PM If he had fled to Nepal he is certainly no seer (one who sees) and would have lost all standing among his following in India (including me - i count myself as a devout follower). That is where our prejudices are leading us astray. Your prejudice is that he is no better than a common criminal and that he will flee at the first opportunity like a rascal caught in the headlights, and my prejudice is that a learned individual will hardly resort to such irrational behvior, even if he had a devious criminal mind. However , now that the TN Government , never particularly known for the delicacy of its dealings with human beings, has chosen to pounce on him in the dead of night we will never know who is right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hats off to you, Kaushal. With just this argument, the whole (hidden) agenda of the TN Govt. is exposed. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 21 2004, 04:47 PM | ||
From the weak response to the arrest, I am forced to conclude it is the
latter. It is particularly painful to see fellow Hindus lead the charge against the Acharya. Macaulay couldnt have been happier at the results of his experiments. The word has gotten around that the Hindu and by extension the Indic can be kicked around with impunity and that he will not retaliate and that he can be shamed repeatedly without anything other than rationalizations to offer.
|
| Posted by: chandramoulee Nov 21 2004, 06:47 PM |
| I read an 'interview'' (over the phone or something) with 'Appu' who totally denies he had anything to do with this murder. Though he admits that he is a fugitive his reasons for flight are due to his apprehension of being liquidated in an 'encounter' Admits he was a frequent visitor to the Mutt and only a visitor due to devotion. I can not give the url for this but seems to have appeared in the web-edition of 'malaimalar'--a Tamil daily |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:07 PM | ||
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1116090,00080001.htm
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:12 PM | ||||||||
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5922_1116055,0015002000000000.htm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1116087,000900040003.htm
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411221101.htm?headline=Sankaracharya~arrest:~Bandh~violence,~3~injured,~buses~damaged~in~Mumbai
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:18 PM | ||
http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13614127&headline='Hinduism~going~through~troubled~times'
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:26 PM |
| http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200411221101.htm?headline=Madras~HC~rejects~seer's~plea~challenging~police~custody |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:33 PM | ||
http://www.newindpress.com/column/News.asp?Topic-97&Title=S%2EGurumurthy&ID=IEH20041121122432&nDate=&Sub=&Cat=&The~entire~polity~of~Tamil~Nadu~except~the~BJP~is~ranged~against~him.~Never~in~the~history~of~the~state~did~the~DMK~and~the~AIADMK,~whose~leaders~never~meet,~ever~unite~on~anything~as~they~do~on~this~issue~and~against~him....
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 21 2004, 11:34 PM | ||
http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?template=Seerarrest&slug=Rs+5+lakh+grant+for+Sankararaman%27s+kin&id=64019&callid=1&category=National&headline=Rs~5~lakh~grant~for~Sankararaman's~kin
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| Posted by: Sunder Nov 21 2004, 11:51 PM | ||||
Here is something I fail to understand. When someone gets murdered, no one seems to give a mooshika's prushtam about it. But when the victim is the talk of the media, and is made out to be a larger than life picture, he/she gets all the money than is normally given... if it is not a media stunt what else can it be ? |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 12:02 AM |
| It is all Jaya stunt. Some good support- Today large number of Muslims welcomed Hindu Sadhus in streets by showering flowers when they were on the way to Dharma Sabha in New Delhi. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 22 2004, 02:48 AM |
| http://www.dinakaran.com/daily/2004/Nov/22/others/topstory4.html that an AIADMK (Madam JJ's party) partyman in important position in South Madras has been arrested in connection with Mr. Sankarraman's murder and Madam JJ has suspended him from the party temporarily. I will remind forummers that the fathers of both Appu & Kadhiravan, the suspected prime hirelings, had worked with MGR before. |
| Posted by: Pathmarajah Nov 22 2004, 03:49 AM |
| Hi Kaushal, You are right. Hardly any of the other aadheenams in TN have responded nor any of those outside India. A major part of the reason for the weak response is because the Kanchi Mutt and the other shankaracharyas are viewed as citadels of the varna system and spiritual leaders and gurus ONLY to the brahmins and to some extent the dvijas. More than once have I been told this, that they are not responsible for the non-dvijas. Of course I was horrified. But it seems explanatory. And I think the vast majority of the people of TN, and perhaps India too quietly acknowledge this. This could explain the indifference. And yes its true as Hindus we must stand together, at least in moral support. But being a legal matter there is nothing much the people can do except burn some buses, which some are already doing in Mumbai. Its true also that the politicians have jumped on the bandwagon to gain mileage but I do not think it is a conspiracy. Its the same TN police that solved the Rajic Gandhi murder in days. There is no choice now. We have to go thru these difficult times. In probability he will be charged in the next few days, a hearing in January, later a full trial in March/April extending for months where the gory details and private liaisons are brought into the open, then a long imprisonment. There is going to be much despair in the years to come, especially for the brahmins folks and devotees. No matter the outcome, the name has been tarnished. And brahmin folks will be looked at differently, coldly. I worry for these folks not the pontiffs or mutts. VS is too young to lead. VS should sit in meditation outside Vellore prison, receiving all, giving upadesas, eating whatever food any devotee bring, and not leaving the spot till his guru is out. My opinion is that it would be best if Kanchi reverts to Sringeri, and the abbot there makes major changes vis-a-vis caste and priesthood. At least Frawley is there. Caste reform in the monasteries and priesthood is inevitable. The archaryas will soon in the coming months be made aware that while brahmins are in despair it is the non-dvijas who stand by them, even if in silence. The religion has spoken. So have faith, only trying moments like these bring out the best in Hinduism. Regards. Pathma |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 22 2004, 04:17 AM | ||
http://www.dinakaran.com/daily/2004/Nov/22/others/topstory4.html
Looks like MK's tactics have been two fold;
|
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 22 2004, 04:24 AM | ||
Look at the perfidy of MK. He, his party members, his party newspapers and his own Sun TV have already concluded HH as a "criminal" and he now says http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411221510.htm
|
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 22 2004, 06:28 AM | ||
It could also be a way of buying their silence or even acquiescence in Madam JJ's drive against HH, especially as many people are now saying (what we have always been suspecting here in this forum of trumped up charges in spite of the PP and some spirited members) that there are rooms to suspect the motives of arresting HH. |
| Posted by: Praneet N Nov 22 2004, 08:27 AM |
| All those articles about the Acharya and how much work he and the math has accomplished are really impressive, and as this case progresses i must say that the evidence that the prosecution are coming up with is seriously waste. I don't think whoever was behind this if DMK and AIDMK really anticipated a nationwide protest on the scale thats been achieved. If anything the amount of media attention to the Kanchi Math and what it has strived to achieve has been great...i can only see better things happening for the Acharya and the Math after this has blown over. In any case the CBI probe should be followed as energetically to seek to expose the criminals behind this...at any rate heads should roll in the police department for the flimsy grounds on which this case was built and if necessary a central board should look into the case of the murder. A couple of questions : 1) With the Seer's police custody ending today, how much longer will he remain in judicial custody in vellore prison. When and what are they waiting for to grant bail? 2) Who will the BJP or NDA allign with now to gain a modicum of control in the state when the AIDMK and DMK have shown themselves to be so brazenly anti Hindu? 3) From article posted by K ram on pg 3 Will Hindus ever rise : The popular energies of Hinduism have traditionally vested in the little traditions, epitomised by the living Gods. It is these sects, headed by the charismatic individuals who we see on the Astha channel and on God TV, who are keeping popular Hinduism alive. To be effective, Hindu politics has to connect with this evangelical Hindu energy. Any more info on these channels, content, as a medium and how effective are they in India? |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 22 2004, 08:46 AM | ||
Relevant article by IF member Veera Vaishnva: http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=539 |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 22 2004, 08:57 AM | ||
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411221859.htm?headline=Karunanidhi~sees~vengeance~in~Seer's~arrest
Seems like it was ages ago when the 'honest police' had dragged a kicking and screaming Karunanidhi in the middle of night. |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 22 2004, 08:59 AM | ||
http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/22guest.htm?headline=Column:~The~Real~Shankaracharya
|
| Posted by: Viren Nov 22 2004, 09:03 AM | ||
http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/22kanchi2.htm?headline=Seer's~custody~not~to~be~extended:~Court
|
| Posted by: acharya Nov 22 2004, 09:31 AM | ||
Do you really think so? |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 22 2004, 09:49 AM | ||
Thanks for your thoughts, I think Sri Vijayendra Saraswathi Swamigal is more than capable to take his own decisions.
IIRC, the Paramacharya ascended the peetam when he was only 14 or so. Back then his direct guru had attained Videha mukti.
What makes you think he should contact the way he should in front of Vellore Jail and thrive on food morsels thrown to him? I am glad you did not suggest that Sri Jayendral fast to death to prove his innocence. |
| Posted by: Pathmarajah Nov 22 2004, 10:01 AM |
| Sadly, I really do acharya. I feel brahmins must move out of the rural areas to towns, and from there to the north, and from there migrate overseas. Or take on non traditional jobs. For their own safety. There really is no more place in India for brahmins. I think we are beyond discussing. The people really dont want to hear it! Let me rephrase it: what else must happen for the people to read the writings on the wall? To get out of the denial mode? I never once thought that I would 'have' to speak to friends like this. So brutally frank. Aum Tat. Pathma |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 10:27 AM |
| Pathmarajah, Why you think Escapism is only solution left for Brahmins not fighting it back and stay in country of their origin. From centuries they had faced abuses on daily basis, this incidence is nothing new. Yes, like always these incidence shocked masses and united them for greater cause. I am still unable to understand your thought process behind these suggestions and what you will achieve with these suggestions. Your suggestion is more like invaders who attacked India from outside and inside always target Brahmins who used be spiritual and educator during olden time. Remove thought process and rest of junta will follow you. Now Brahmins don’t have that privilege or performing “Brahmin” duties but still targeted just because of deep hatred against them by false propaganda of secularist or I can say people like you. |
| Posted by: acharya Nov 22 2004, 10:33 AM |
| Here are some answers by swapan Swapan Dasgupta The Brahminical stranglehold November 22, 2004 Maybe we have become too inured by predictable images of a dharna. Maybe our measure of outrage has become unnecessarily conditioned by explosive images of Falujah and Palestine. Or maybe the battering ram of aggressive rationalism has pulverised our faith in institutions that personify faith and tradition. Whatever the reality, the sight of a glum-faced BJP top brass trooping out of Rashtrapati Bhavan on Friday night and sitting impassively on a dais in Patel Chowk on Saturday failed to convey the magnitude of the occasion. To the uninitiated, they could well have been demanding the inclusion of Maithili into the 8th Schedule or pressing for compensation to the victims of Bihar's rampaging gangs. The issue is not the choreography of dignified protest in a made-in-media society. The real issue, to my mind, is the bewildering lack of mass outrage to a cynical assault on one of India's premier Hindu institutions. Let us accept grim reality for whatever it is worth. The Shankaracharya of Kanchi, a powerful symbol of the sanatan dharma, was arrested on the night of Diwali and charged with murder. He was produced in court the next day, dubbed an 'undeserving criminal' by the public prosecutor and remanded in police custody. He was allowed no special privileges and lodged in an ordinary jail. When he returned to court three days later, he was mocked for his aversion to rahukalam and for his unwillingness to sign documents. As devotees recoiled in horror, police sources fed a hungry media with 'evidence' of his mendacity. He was accused of facilitating cash payments to supari killers, of being in telephonic contact with goons and even of plotting an escape by helicopter to Nepal. The Junior Shankaracharya was said to have demanded a CBI probe and, with hints of a monastic coup, it was said that his brother had turned approver. It now transpires that very little of these grave charges can be substantiated. In fact, the police have not even submitted their preliminary evidence to court. You would have imagined that the authorities would have proceeded against a person as revered as the Shankaracharya on the strength of watertight evidence. But no, they arrested him and humiliated him on the basis of suspicion. The reasons lie in the vagaries of Dravidian politics, particularly the competitive inclination to invoke anti-Brahmin sentiment. Let us not forget that the DMK had threatened an agitation against the state government if it did not proceed against the Kanchi seer. Karunanidhi was, in effect, daring the Brahmin Jayalalithaa to take action against the Brahmin Shankaracharya. For him, this was just another handle to beat Jayalalithaa with. By ensuring the Shankaracharya was booked, regardless of the evidence, Jayalalithaa has at least ensured that Karunanidhi can no longer charge her of having a Brahminical bias. The question is: Why was the Shankaracharyua allowed to become a political football between two Dravidian parties who are bound by an ideological aversion to the Hindu faith? The anti-Hindus, in Tamil Nadu at least, have proceeded on the assumption that there is no worthwhile Hindu sentiment. A Hindu nation, divided along caste, regional and denominational lines, it is believed, will stomach any indignity. This is a belief that binds all the secularist parties. Judging from the muted response to the arrest, the secularists may well be right. There is disquiet that the Shankaracharya was treated shabbily and there is pain that a premier Hindu institution has been brought into disrepute. But equally, there is astonishing passivity. The Shankaracharya of Puri may claim that the assault on his Kanchi counterpart is a 'blow to the existence and ideology of Hindus,' but the average Hindu still believes this is an overstatement. Hindus have ceased to react as Hindus. Yet, Hindus have not ceased to believe and conduct themselves as Hindus in their private lives. It is just that they have gradually abdicated the public space to secularists and organised minorities. It is an abdication that has happened by default. The claimants to the Hindu public space have erroneously focussed on the traditional institutions of the faith. Unfortunately, these institutions, like the Kanchi Math, have become identified with a narrow Brahminical order. This may be unfair to Sri Jayendra Saraswati who has consciously taken the Kanchi Math out of the orbit of pure spiritualism and involved it in social and philanthropic ventures. He created philanthropic institutions, campaigned for Dalit rights, championed the Ayodhya cause and resisted conversions. Yet, the public image of Brahminical exclusivity has persisted. In being wedded to orthodoxy, neither the present Shankaracharyas nor their institutions have had the temperament to be defenders of the faith. The Maths and their groupies have come across as socially aloof, insufferably arrogant and casteist. Their Hinduism has not been inclusive. This explains why there was no spontaneous explosion of fury at the arrest of the Shankaracharya. The popular energies of Hinduism have traditionally vested in the little traditions, epitomised by the many stand-alone Maths, the numerous gurus and the many living Gods. It is these sects, headed by the charismatic individuals who we see on the likes of Astha channel and God TV, who are keeping popular Hinduism alive. Their Hinduism is vibrant, inclusive and imbued with some social vision. To be effective, Hindu politics has to connect with this evangelical Hindu energy. This should have been obvious to every BJP leader who was present at last Saturday's dharna in Delhi. Throughout the morning and afternoon, there were barely 1,500 people at the venue. The mood changed with the arrival of the charismatic preacher Asaram Bapu. On hearing on television that he was at the venue, there was a rush of his devotees to the dharna. The crowds swelled considerably and the BJP leaders requested him to return the next day too. The Ayodhya movement was one of the few moments when Hindu nationalism and Hindu religious energy converged. The convergence also happened because of the broadening of the social bases of Hindu nationalism to incorporate the backward castes, Dalits and adivasis. Today, after six years of seeking respectability from the India's secularised elites, the BJP appears to have glossed over the social constituency that made its great leap forward possible. Just consider this small but crucial detail: of the seven-member BJP delegation that went to meet the President last Friday, five were Brahmins. The tragedy is that this imbalance didn't even strike the leadership. Unless Hindu politics can break out of this Brahminical stranglehold, the cynical assault on Hindu institutions cannot be checked. |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 22 2004, 10:35 AM | ||
Sad indeed Pathma. You, while advocating the doing away of caste system and the so-called egalitarianism are still hung up with the thoughts of Brahmins being associated with Birth. You advocate Brahmins to leave based on what ? Is there a threat or a warning hidden in your message? I see that while you are advocating equality, have an obsession that circles around Brahmins and other jati/vijatis. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 22 2004, 10:40 AM | ||
It is not the Brahmanas i am concerned about, Pathma. As far as TN is cncerned they are a spent force. And as far as the rest of the country is concerned the situation is not all that encouraging. But the Brahmanas have a high survival quoteient and unlike the pArsees who are going to be extinct in a few decades, the Brahmanas will survive in various areas of the planet. We who are part of the diaspora will keep the flame alive
I am more concerned with the survival of the Indic civilization. Without the Brahmana it will wither away and die in the land of our ancestors or it will evolve into something quite unrecognizable. Note that all the great civilizaitons of SEAsia (Angkor, Borobodur etc) owe their flowering to Brahmana and Buddhist monks. Without the brahmana there is no sanatana dharma.
And Pathma i have to differ from you in that i dont think the varna system and to a large extent the Jati system is not all that unique to the subcontinent. There will always be mandarins in China, Samurai in japan, the House of Lords in britain, Yale graduates in the state department, it is the nature of the human species to seek out individuals with similar interests and intellectual attainments and you can no more suppress it than you can suppress the waves in the ocean as King Canute tried. The present revulsion against meritocracy in India is a temporary phase . People will tire of dealing daily with mediocrity and revert back to the natural order where the meritocracy rises to the top. |
| Posted by: Ramesh Rao Nov 22 2004, 11:20 AM |
| I believe it is important to support the BJP/RSS/Sangh in their efforts to publicize this issue and to bring pressure on various political fronts. Without the demonized Sangh Parivar, what we would have is the passive and pusillanimous acceptance of attacks against Hindus in India. Ramesh Rao |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 11:36 AM |
| http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411222169.htm?headline=Seer's~arrest~a~hurried~step:~Chandrababu~Naidu Hyderabad, Nov. 22 (PTI): The TDP today described as "hurried" the arrest of Kanchi Sankaracharya in a murder case and said caution should be maintained in dealing with cases pertaining to prominent persons, including religious figures, "as it involved emotions and sentiments of the people". "As far as Shankracharya's arrest is concerned, it was a hurried step. The concerned Government should have not done so hurriedly", TDP President N Chandrababu Naidu, told PTI. He said while dealing with prominent personalities, including religious heads of various sects and celebrities, by law enforcing agencies should be done in a transparent manner without hurting their position and status. Naidu said "there is a need to protect the sentiments and status of such personalities in probing the matter". |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 11:38 AM |
| Bharat bandh a success: Togadia Agencies/ Ranchi The VHP Monday claimed that its nationwide dawn-to-dusk bandh to protest the arrest of Kanchi Sankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati was successful and evoked a total response throughout the country. "The success of the bandh is a befitting response against the Kanchi Sankaracharya's arrest," VHP International General Secretary Praveen Togadia told reporters here. Togadia offered puja at a temple here and later laid the foundation stone for the construction of VHP's Jharkhand unit office. |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 22 2004, 11:39 AM |
| http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=44076 [India News]: Jammu, Nov.22 : BJP workers in Jammu organised a shutdown and a protest in Jammu on Monday over the continued incarceration of the Shankaracharya of the Kanchi, Jayendra Saraswati. "The nandh call was given by the VHP against the arrest of Shankaracharya. The BJP has been organising protests all around the country to mark their protests and this is the dharna by the BJP and we are supporting the bandh call by the VHP. We are demanding that like there is no law applicable to the Prime Minister and the President, like that the feelings of the Hindus should be kept in mind and we know that Shankaracharya has been arrested on false charges that is why BJP is protesting against it", said Shamsher Singh, a BJP worker. "Our bandh is because we want that everything should move according to the court's orders. Till the court decides about this matter, he should be treated fairly and he should not behave as if he is a criminal", said another BJP worker. The sensational arrest of the 60-year-old Brahmin priest has provoked an outrage among Hindu hardline groups. (ANI) |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 11:52 AM | ||
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200411221801.htm?headline=PIL~in~SC~seeks~CBI~probe~into~Kanchi~seer's~arrest
|
| Posted by: Pathmarajah Nov 22 2004, 12:09 PM |
| Mudy, Acharya, Sunder and Kaushal, All of you are right. But I think I am right too. I am pained to talk to you these last few days and no matter how much I tried to avoid discussing these recent matters; I 'had' to respond. Mudy, this is unlike the past. Conservatism and orthodoxy has no more chance, and the reformers will win as I said before. The rest of India will mirror TN in no time. You have not properly understood the resentment the people have. I think the dvija people in India live in a state of denial. Mudy, the patrons of the religion are talking loudly, and its deafening. Those monasteries can go for all Hindus care! These episodes is not uniting the Hindus. Cant you see? It is being welcomed by the Hindus. Read the silence! Yes, Kaushal, Hinduism and the Indic civilisation will survive, in newer and better forms too. I am making sure of that in a small way too. But I dont think it with wither and die or become unrecognisable; Hinduism is multi-rooted, and it does not depend on any one sect or sampradaya. Already several dozen sampradayas and all Hindu scriptures have found a home outside India. Iyengar/battacharya brahmins as well as sivacharyas/kurukkals too will survive in India and elswhere, and even thrive in a reformed format. But realistically, and specifically speaking the smartha sampradaya is in a bit of a trouble. Please forgive, but since its friends, I had to speak these. The price of honesty. Aum. Pathma |
| Posted by: acharya Nov 22 2004, 12:33 PM |
| the patrons of the religion are talking loudly, and its deafening. Those monasteries can go for all Hindus care! These episodes is not uniting the Hindus. Cant you see? It is being welcomed by the Hindus. Read the silence! Indians have been indoctrinated to follow the law and remain muted against the law for most of colonial occupation and after independence. That is what we are seeing here. Even if there is injustice the public will remain muted and be a spectator. This is a direct result of the common law and criminal law projected in the country for several centuries. There is no clear discussion and debate on weather it is justice or injustice. This is due to the long history of thought control and defining the terms of debates. Yet, Hindus have not ceased to believe and conduct themselves as Hindus in their private lives. It is just that they have gradually abdicated the public space to secularists and organised minorities. Conservatism and orthodoxy has no more chance, and the reformers will win as I said before. The rest of India will mirror TN in no time. You have not properly understood the resentment the people have. I think the dvija people in India live in a state of denial. Most of the resentment against anything Hindu is an indoctrinated one for more than 25 years. These sentiments have been nurtured over several decades in media and secular sociologists. |
| Posted by: gangajal Nov 22 2004, 12:48 PM |
| To All, This is just a question. Should the position of Shankaracharya be opened to all jatis? What do you people think? |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 12:59 PM | ||
Any learned person on Vedic Scriptures and who promise to protect vedas should hold position.
That is what seer was doing, opening Temples in Dalit villages and promoting them to run temples affairs according to vedas. He was not promoting to get Brahmin caste to come and run temples.
In UP people from lower caste are learning Purohit diksha to run temples.
In Arya Samaj, Purohit can be from any caste, Caste in never asked to perform Havan or reciting Vedas even females are encourached to lead Havan. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 22 2004, 01:15 PM | ||
Of course. Having said that, i must reiterate it must be by merit and merit alone. While i think there have been a few instances of people other than Brahmanas to master the Vedas, these are real exceptions. But we must also remember that Vyasa was born to a lower caste woman, and that the spark of divinity exists in all living beings. I definitely believe in equal opportunity for all children in a particular society
It takes years to become a doctor and we would not have it any other way. suppose you were told that the person operating on your brain (or heart) was a product of affirmative action and quotas. I wonder how many of us would be liberal enough to entrust our life to a potentialy mediocre surgeon. Why not expect the same high standards of our priestly class and expect that they know their scripture thoroughly and that they maintain the same highstandards of knowledge , ethics and spiritual values as their predecessors. As long as a person can do this, he deserves a shot at becoming the Acharya of a matham. |
| Posted by: gangajal Nov 22 2004, 01:19 PM | ||||
If the seer had been working for the dalits then why did a dalit leader want the mutt to be demolished?
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 01:29 PM | ||||
Lack of knowledge what mutt was doing.
Political vendatta.
Dalit leaders are Mahatama now a days.
I am posting again this article dated 7Nov, much before Seer arrest.
Now anyone can guess "Dalit leader" judgement and motivation. !!!!!!!!!! |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 22 2004, 01:30 PM | ||
Valmiki too? |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 01:33 PM |
| Lord Krishana was Yadav and was well versed in all vedic scriptures. Lord Rama was not Brahmin. |
| Posted by: Vajramuni Nov 22 2004, 02:34 PM |
| One's origin & Karma are the most important factor. At least in Sringere, the Pontiff is selected by divine intuition amongst others by the current Pontiff. Reading Scriptures and performing rituals are all perfunctory. One must be suitable to receive Sri-Vidya Siddhi, AKA Mantra Siddhi. Must be able to excel in Kundalini yoga. Usually beings from Causal plane are the only suitable beings. Normally they are born in religious minded middle class Brahmin families. A major purpose of position of an Acharya is for the up keep of Santana Dharma (meaning relation ship the eternal GOD). Focus is mostly on GOD to be in Nirvikallpa Samadhi. Public appearances must be nominal. But in this materialistic it has become a necessity. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 03:22 PM | ||
Folks,
I know I have said this enough times but I have reason to repeat the same thing over and over again. Lets keep in mind..
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 03:32 PM | ||
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=307306
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 03:46 PM |
| Gangajal, I think the question (no fault of yours ofcourse) is not appropriate. It is a loaded question -> should we stop burning wives ? The reality (atleast in Gujarat) is that inspite of having the Dwarka math in Gujarat the popularity of other non-shankaracharya saints is more then the Shankaracharya of Dwarka. Most people dont even think twice about whether a saint is brahmin or not as long as he/she makes sense. TN from what I see/read is a special case. The dravidianist politics has so polarised the TN society that most people (including many self-styled reformers) have one dimensional thinking and equate spiritual pursuit with anti-brahminism. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 03:58 PM | ||
Pathmarajah,
Straight ways, sideways, any which ways - just slide the agenda in, eh ??!!
Your first response was ..
So I see that now you are changing your stance to "oh the acharya is innocent but see no reaction for poor acharya since he wont allow dalits to acharyas".
Nice try ! Doesnt wash..
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 04:07 PM |
| FYI .. Two threads - Arrest of Shankaracharya and More on Shankaracharya have been merged.. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 04:37 PM |
| Rajeev Srinivasan on "government control of religious institutions".. http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/22rajeev.htm |
| Posted by: gangajal Nov 22 2004, 05:11 PM | ||
Rajesh,
The incident in TN suggests that urgent steps need be taken to democratise the institutions of Hindu dharma. Kanchi's Shankaracharya was arrested on the eve of Diwali because the Govt of TN knew that they could play the caste card to manage the situation. They would of course not dare to arrest a muslim or Christian religious leader because they will not be able to divide the congregation. This is the reason why I asked the question. I wanted to know the attitude of this board. I told a Tamil firend of mine the need to offer all jatis equal opportunity to hold high posts. He replied that the point I am making is a debatable one.
I got the impression that he was not in favor. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 05:14 PM | ||
some info here..
http://www.the-week.com/24jun27/cinema_article2.htm |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 22 2004, 05:33 PM | ||||
Gangajal,
Not sure if i can speak for this board but myself. I know what you meant and didnt mean to counter you at all - i have known you for quiet sometime to suspect your intentions in asking this - i know you are beyond this.
I was just trying to point out that traditionally we (hindus) just come up with an alternate and let the alternate make a stand and see if it can compete. If it can, thats well and good and would eventually lead the original to wither away or change and if it cannot, then the alternate was not worth its salt.
In gujarat the list of popular saints include - morari bapu, ramesh oza , asaram bapu, krishna shankar shastri, athavle, swaminarayan-sect leaders, mata amritanandmayi (?), ravishankar, isckon and these days there are even more. To this day I have not bothered nor inquired nor have heard somebody trying to find out whether these guys are brahmins or not. To be honest I dont even know the name of Shankaracharya of Dwarka. Once again the point is not whether a dalit should be allowed to become a shankaracharya or not - the point is a saint is a saint or not.
But TN seems different or so it seems judging from 'reformers' ecstatic reaction. I could very well be wrong. I dont know much about TN. But judging, if i may from far away, i would not be surprised if a dalit sankaracharya will evoke cries of "sanskritisation of dalits".. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 06:55 PM |
| http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1117754,0008.htm Press Trust of India Chennai, November 23 Describing the arrest of the Kanchi Seer Jayendra Saraswathi and the treatment meted out to him after his arrest as most 'disgraceful', BJP President LK Advani on Monday night said it was not an insult to an individual but for an institution, which had a 'glorious tradition'. "Even political leaders have not been treated the way in which the Seer is treated. The kind of attitude and treatment would not have been given to religious leaders, if they are from other religions," he told a meeting organised to protest the arrest of the Seer. "Let the law take its own course, but a religious leader should not be humiliated. Even during the British rule, the leaders were not treated in the way in which Sankaracharya was treated," he said. He said during his 50 years of public life, he had seen two 'unfortunate' incidents - one in 1975, when the emergency was promulgated and now. During the emergency, the then government said the people and the press had fallen in line with it, he said adding that the people showed their wrath and anger during the 1977 Lok Sabha elections. "Even I, as the Janata Party General Secretary then, did not expect that the people will give such a mandate to us," he said. "It was like Lord Shiva opening his third eye. I never thought that the people will react like this," he said. |
| Posted by: G.Subramaniam Nov 22 2004, 06:59 PM |
| Ok here goes Feedback from my anti-conversion team in Tamil Nadu *The pay for a vedic pundit is less than Rs.1000 a month and in vedic schools almost NO non-brahmin wants to join Very few brahmins want to join either *The first step to becoming a Sankaracharya is to join a vedic school *We work with both brahmin and non-brahmin swamis *Dalits are welcome at the kanchi mutt and the mutt has an outreach program *The expulsion of brahmins from rural tamil nadu has meant that existing temples dont function, and there is a spiritual vacuum filled by missionaries *Our team provides priestly training to any hindu of any caste |
| Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Nov 22 2004, 07:17 PM |
| I am rather sure that people are going to get all heated for me saying this but I must state it anyhow. I think there is frequently a conflation of categories. I believe the access to general Hindu practices such as temple access, performing devotional services at temples and a class of religious texts defined as the purANas, certain tantras and stotra saMgrahas should be universally available. However, there are certain texts such as certain tantras and Agamas that require a vertical initiation through a tradition. These I believe can only can from within the tradition and cannot be disbursed to all and sundry. Regarding these ownership of these traditions I believe that the gurus have full rights to decide whom they let in whom they keep out and NO ONE has a right to question this. Finally there are the shruti texts. These texts, I am sorry to reveal the harsh truth, is a rather exclusive private property of its custodians. It is up to them regarding whom they share it with. I do not believe it is correct to force owners to part with their belongings through coercion and blackmail. |
| Posted by: AJay Nov 22 2004, 07:27 PM | ||
This is bizaarre, to say the least. Why to the "all women police station"? Are there no other police stations?
|
| Posted by: G.Subramaniam Nov 22 2004, 07:34 PM |
| The All women police station bit was to humiliate the Sankaracharya A Sankaracharya has to keep away from women |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 22 2004, 09:01 PM | ||
Sadhu Sadhu. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 22 2004, 09:02 PM |
| I was talking to one of my friends. He was suspecting that the brain behind this episode could be that of cunning Cho, despite his pro-hindu leaning. Only circumstantial evidence we have is that on the day Shankaracharya got arrested there was an interview of Cho in http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/12kanchi3.htm. He was supporting Jayalalitha like - there could be clinching evidence - and - Hindus may later feel all actions are justified. How could he come to this conclusion on the very first day? |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 09:10 PM |
| PROTEST DEMONSTRATION HINDUS OF AMERICA, WITH THE SUPPORT OF VISHVA HINDU PARISHAD OF AMERICA, WILL DEMONSTRATE IN FRONT OF INDIAN CONSULATE, 3 E. 64TH STREET TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 30TH FROM 12:30 PM TO 2:30 PM AGAINST MISTREATMENT AND ARBITRARY IMPRISONMENT OF SHANKARACHARYA SWAMI JAYENDRA SARASWATI HINDUS IN AMERICA BELIEVE THAT A POLITICAL CONSPIRACY HAS BEEN HATCHED TO DEFAME AND DEMONIZE HINDU DHARMA. HINDUS BELIEVE THAT THE ARREST OF SHANKARACHARYA IS MOTIVATED BY A SINISTER DESIRE TO DEMORALIZE HINDUS IN GENERAL AND FRIGHTEN AND TERRORIZE THE HINDU SEERS INTO SUBMISSION, IN PARTICULAR. PLEASE COME, JOIN US, EXPRESS YOUR OUTRAGE AND ANGUISH, AND DEMONSTRATE HINDU UNITY NARAIN KATARIA (718) 478-5735) CO-ORDINATOR/ORGANIZER For further information please do not hesitate to call: Gaurang Vaishnav Raksh Pal Sood Rajesh Shukla (732) 603-2280 (732) 985-8179 (201) 943-2650 Uma Mysorekar, M.D. Narinder Kukar, M.D. Dr. A.V. Raghunath (718) 460-8484 (516) 938-4740 (516) 796-3509 and 30 other Hindu leaders of Tri-state area |
| Posted by: manju Nov 22 2004, 09:22 PM | ||
It is similar in Ramakrishna Matham.... Anyone with sucessful training at the Belur Matham for (I think) about 9 years... becomes a Swami. It does not matter into which family these Swami's were born into...
Just as an example... The Mysore Ramkrishna Matham Branch was started by Swami Shambhaveshananda.... who was not a Brahmin by birth...
|
| Posted by: bharathpremi Nov 22 2004, 09:45 PM |
| I think this discussion about whether swami is a brahmin or not is superfulous. Swami chinmayananda, sri sri ravishankar are all not brahmins by jati, just for example. It is not done by voting or reservation. If one has the strenght , people will recognize. Again certain institutions like shankar mutt, have evolved over period of time. their selection criteria is their own, I dont think any need to mess with it. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 22 2004, 09:53 PM |
| All women inside the police station were sent away before the acharya went in. Nothing controversial about it. |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 22 2004, 09:56 PM | ||
Really ?? kewl. that justifies everything now...   (Seriously, we need a mock clapping icon.)
Who was then guarding the precincts ? And if it was guarded only by males, the when were the women constables called back in? Were the other inmates (if any) left in the custody of the men replacing the women in the all-women police station ?
Something fishy here. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 22 2004, 09:57 PM |
| http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/22guest.htm---Shobha Vasudevan |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 22 2004, 10:59 PM |
| ashyam, I do not believe Cho could be behind this. He is not in the inner circles (may be not even in the outer circles) of Ma'am JJ to influence her, though their personal and deep friendship go a long way back. Cho is also a well-known admirer of police forces. He has almost always defended every action of theirs earlier. His take on this episode in the NDTV "Big Fight" debate was very different. He almost characterised Mr. Sankarraman as a black-mailer. he demanded transfer of the case to another State. He deplored the treatment given to HH. He ridiculed the Nepal-flee-theory. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 22 2004, 11:51 PM | ||||
I said ,all women police were evacuated , implies inmates if any also would be taken somewhere else.
|
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 23 2004, 12:00 AM | ||
Yup, I would like to believe this. |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 23 2004, 12:14 AM | ||
I am sure it was washed with Phenyl too. Samudra, do you have links that talk about the evacuation? the english media does not seem to have a reference as far as I googled. Perhaps you would have some valid sources to back your claim. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 23 2004, 12:25 AM |
| Saw & Heard ( & read ) . Was evacuated of women . Trust my word. No women in there.The police men even refrain from touching the JS. Obviously JS did not lodge any protest , none whatsoever in the courts. Nor did his counsels .As is now usual in this case, the questioning sessions were video taped. He has moved SC for bail. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 23 2004, 12:30 AM |
| Reg Cho I should call him a true journalist.Very sensible man. Never thinks twice about debunking JJ or MK. Knows what he is talking about , was(is?) Rajya Sabha MP nominated by BJP. Quite close to JJ though , never put that into writing, a journalist sans any bias. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 23 2004, 02:39 AM |
| http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/23best.htm Though the contexts could be different, that inscrutable are the ways of judiciary is very clear. Now, Ms. Setalvad is a woman accused by Zaheera and her brothers of forcibly keeping them against their wish in Mumbai, forcibly getting their signature in certain documents and tutoring them on how to answer questions, and threatening them to toe a certain line in a matter pending in the courts. These are very serious violations ofthe laws of the land, even amounting to kidnapping, and human rights especially by a person who claims to "fight" for the same. She now gets 72 houris notice before arrest. She is the same person, along with her husband Mr. Javed Anand, who runs the "Sabrang" organization which at one time was depicting an India map without J&K and the entire North-East as part of India. That map also showed a superimposed and a more accurate map of Pakistan, larger in size than India including J&K and in a green background. Upon vehement protest, she claimed that the map was drawn by children of an International school in Mumbai and only "heartless" people will find fault with such innocent children blah-blah... There was of course no response to why TSP's map was more accurate and why she did not correct the mistake before publishing such a map. Then she wrote an article in Rediff blaming "Hindutvawadis" for raising a hue-and-cry. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 23 2004, 06:04 AM | ||
Gangajal,
I find this a strange conclusion. Not that it is necessarily wrong, but there is no existence theorem to test the validity of your assertion. You simply state it because it makes you feel good.
Can anybody show me what democratic principles the Vatican follows in all its policies and when it chooses the Pope. So you say the Vatican is an exception. Ok, if the vatican is an exception, show me a religious institution that is democratic. Is Islam democratic. Then how come they arbitarily issue fatwas to kill people like Salman Rushdie. Or is that a democratic act too . The reality of the matter is that democracy and religion do not go together . Religion is essentially a top down paradigm.
Let us for example extend the principle of democracy to other fields of intellectual endeavor. In future let us select heart surgeons and brain surgeons by democratic vote and not by educational qualifications. so the person operating on you heart could be Muthuvel Karunanidhi. How do you like them apples.
One should think before making far reaching statements such as the above. |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 23 2004, 08:28 AM | ||
URL recycles...posting in full
http://www.newindpress.com/Column.asp?ID=IE620041122225424
- S Gurumurthy
|
| Posted by: Viren Nov 23 2004, 08:30 AM | ||
Came via email:
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 08:45 AM |
| Jaya trying to tamper evidence in Seer case: VHP Tuesday, November 23 2004 New Delhi: Accusing Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa of trying to tamper evidence in the Kanchi Shankaracharya case by giving "reward" to the family of a murdered aide, VHP (Vishwa Hindu Parishad) today (Nov 23, 2004) said it would intensify its nation-wide agitation if the Seer is not released within a week. VHP General Secretary Praveen Togadia also demanded that the case be shifted from Tamil Nadu to Gujarat and questioned Congress President Sonia Gandhi's silence on the issue. "Even in cases of police firing, the maximum compensation given by the Government is Rs two lakh. Then why did Jayalalithaa announce Rs five lakh for the family of Sankaraman? Was this a reward for giving evidence against the Shankaracharya?" Togadia asked. Claiming that the pontiff would not get justice in Tamil Nadu and demanded that the case be shifted to Gujarat as "Hindus had faith on the Government of that State." Togadia "gave" a week's time to the TN Government to release the Seer. "A country-wide programme involving students and farmers will be launched if this is not done. Religious leaders will announce the course of action within three days." Lashing out at Congress President Sonia Gandhi for her silence on the issue, Togadia told reporters, "She says she cannot comment as the matter is sub-judice. But did she not speak on the Bilkis Banu case?" Asked why VHP and BJP were organising separate protests on the issue, he said, "We are not a political party and so their programme is different from ours. But we believe all have to fight for the Shankaracharya's release." Togadia also asked Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister Rajshekhar Reddy to clarify with which Central leader he had reportedly talked to before the arrest. news.indiainfo.com/2004/1...1jaya.html |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 08:49 AM |
| Public come out in public against arrest NT Bureau Chennai, Nov 23: Not a word was needed. Their faces betrayed their emotions. Angst and anguish were writ large on the faces thousands of volunteers belonging to various Hindu organisations and members of the public who had gathered at a meeting organised by the BJP here last evening to condemn the arrest of Kanchi Sankaracharya Sri Jayendra Saraswathi. Chants of 'Jaya Jaya Sankara Hara Hara Sankara' rent the air as the multitude raised slogans demanding the release of the Acharya, incarcerated in the Vellore Central prison for nearly two weeks on the charge of involvement in the murder of a staff of the Sri Varadharaja Perumal temple in Kancheepuram. Saffron flags fluttered all over the venue as the attendees, of various age groups, raised slogans condemning the State government for foisting a case against Sri Jayendra Saraswathi. When BJP's State unit general secretary H Raja, in his address, accused both the DMK and AIADMK of hatching a conspiracy to implicate the Seer in the murder, the crowds broke into a thunderous applause. The number continued to swell as the meeting progressed and the BJP's State unit general secretary Kumaravelu made repeated pleas to the police to make way for those pouring in by increasing the space provided to them. When BJP national president and former Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani arrived at the venue, people gave vent to their anguish by raising slogans against the Seer's arrest and demanding his immediate release. The security arrangements were tight with police personnel deployed on almost every building in and around the venue. Said Seshadri (57), a resident of East Tambaram, who had come all the way to the city to attend the meeting: 'I consider it my foremost duty to attend the meeting to condemn the arrest of the Seer. All these days the votes of the Hindus had always been split. We have never been a vote bank per se and have been taken for a ride by politicians. However, the arrest of the Kanchi Acharya has brought us together and we'll henceforth stand united'. Expressing distress over the arrest, Badri Narayanan (30), a member of Hindu Munnani, asked, 'When we run to the Kanchi Mutt at times of crisis in our personal life, is it not our bounden duty to voice our opposition when the Mutt is facing hard times now? Hindus have become orphans now with the arrest of the Sankaracharya', he said. Mohammad Farookh, a resident of Mylapore, said, 'though I don't want to comment on the arrest of Seer, the way he has been treated by police personnel deserves to be condemned. Let's pray to the Almighty that he emerges unscathed from all the allegations'. A former Minister of Nepal who was present on the occasion expressed regret over the arrest and hope that the Seer would be released soon. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 08:54 AM | ||
http://newstodaynet.com/23NOV/LD6.HTM
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 08:58 AM | ||
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 09:03 AM | ||
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 09:19 AM | ||
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| Posted by: Sunder Nov 23 2004, 09:41 AM |
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/23kanchi1.htm 
Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati was on Tuesday booked in another case relating to an attack on a former official of the Kanchi Mutt, G Radhakrishnan, and two others.
The Shankaracharya has been charged with attempt to murder along with two other accused, the police said.
The two had attacked Radhakrishnan, his wife and an attendant with sharp-edged weapons at his residence in Mylapore area of Chennai on September 20, 2002.
The two -- who are already in custody in connection with the the Sankararaman case -- fled the scene when the victims raised an alarm and the neighbours came to their rescue. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 10:49 AM |
| Soon they will find him guilty of Rajeev Gandhi assassination. |
| Posted by: pulikeshi Nov 23 2004, 10:53 AM | ||
Hi Kaushal,
I know you are trying to sort out a messy argument. However, this quote bothers me a lot.
Organized religion requires a top down paradigm. Hinduism, or by any other name such as Sanathana Dharma, is not an organized religion. While I do not subscribe to the democratic reforms suggested by Gangajal, as Hindusim already exhibits adequate democratic tendencies in my opinion – electing swamis is not my definition of democracy. It would be incorrect to presume that religion is incongruous with democracy.
On the contrary we “pagans”, Indians, ancient Romans and Greek, have a natural propensity for democracy. It was only after the reformation of the Church, with the protestant movements, that democracy took a foot hold in the west. Alex Tocqueville gladly talks about the disruptive forces democracy projects on religion – especially organized religion – in his “Democracy in America”. The reverse is just as true – a more democratic religion is naturally suited for a democratic political system. This is why India remains a, perhaps the only, democracy of all the British colonies that did not have a western heritage. Given all this, now we have the curious situation of the west portraying democracy as their own, which is as incorrect, as their portrayal of Judeo-Christian religions as inherently western.
So in my humble opinion democracy is not incongruous with religion, but it is with organized, exclusivist religions. Therein lie the roots of secularism. We have had some discussion such as this in the past – on most things we have agreed, but on this issue we perhaps don’t. As this topic is off the scope of this thread, we could discuss this on another appropriate thread if you want…
On this thread a general comment - We should condemn the method and means of the Achraya's arrest, but no religious leader is above the law. In case of conclusive proof, we must no hesitate to arrest the Shankaracharya, the Bishop, or the Imam. Every citizen is equal before the law! |
| Posted by: Abhijit_ST Nov 23 2004, 11:43 AM | ||
Kaushal:
I believe I must comment on this quote. It is quite clear that none of the organized religions is democratic. But the operative word is 'Organized'. Religion is a political tool - the most powerful political tool as was shown by US elections. In India, if the custodians of Hinduism had been powerful, it would have been al right. Nobody would have dared touch a Hindu, far less a Shankarachrya.
Several years ago, a slimeball called Ramvilas paswan (or may be it was Sharad Yadav) claimed that the only way to eradicate casteism was for upper caste women to marry into lower castes (he was proferring this idea for ostensibly uplifting the lower castes). I was appaled at that time at this statement - not because I was against it but because it felt to be the first step towards a forced miscegenation. Now after seeing several years of a horrendous decline in the (already miniscule) political clout of the upper castes, I think it behooves the upper castes to read the writing on the wall. If the upper castes remain exclusive they will be politically extinct and with them will be gone the Sanatan Dharma. The only solution to a caste-based reservation is to reduce the pure upper castes numbers through voluntary inter-caste marriages. The pure blood of the upper castes has acquired several notable characteristics - an ability to excel in studies, business even in military. But at the same time it has lost out on a very important characteristic of political survival in a democratic environment. A miscegenation (I am using this term for want of better one - I understand that all Indians are the same race - miscegenation should be read as inter-caste in this context) would provide some vital infusion of much needed characteristics and more importantly it will provide a political power to the right people.
Look at it this way. If the lower caste Dravidianist people had felt a stake in the well-being and holiness of the Shankaracharya, no bloody politician would have dared touch him. It is important to make the masses feel a stake in Hindu icons - not just the local temples.
Sorry for the rambling.
|
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 23 2004, 11:54 AM |
| Of late I am observing we have more 'caste based' statements and opinions - both on the offensive and defensive side - that's coming out in discussions. I would rather that we leave the caste business aside and really concentrate on the real issue of the Kanchi Acharya and the bigotry of the judicial and pseudo-psecular-pscoundrells. No discussion can be meaningful when the caste card is thrown because each one will be repeating their own stance over and over in the hope that the other party would 'see light'... I hope we agree with this. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 23 2004, 11:57 AM | ||
Makes sense.
Lets stick to topic please. |
| Posted by: Vajramuni Nov 23 2004, 01:05 PM |
| Hinduism is the most natural democratic way of life. We must be Democratic even to Animals & Plants by respecting Nature. I dont think a Pontiff can be elected like a regular election. A pontiff is raised in Scriptures & Rituals, more importantly in realizing GOD by self effort with Guidance of a Guru. The concept of Guru's guidance is unique to Hinduism. Changing this process will hasten Hinduism's demise from this planet. I will leave whether this JS is guilty / not guilty to GOD, I hope he ie released even if he his guilty, as it would rock the foundation of Hinduism. I dont want to discuss other religions as they really are not religion of GOD. I think we must avoid discussing Hinduism here. The question is about JS being Guilty/not & how it affects Hindus. What steps to take to make sure these things dont happen again. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 02:31 PM |
| http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/ http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/cellphones.pdf -pdf http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/nepal.pdf - pdf http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/bankaccounts.pdf -pdf ICICI Bank Account of the mutt to Indian Bank, Sankara Mutt Branch to ICICI Bank Account of one of the "Trusts" associated with the Mutt. Of course the Mutt has no control over THE TRUST funds nor does its officials are Authorised Signatures to the bank accounts. |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 23 2004, 02:37 PM | ||
Now I am thoroughly confused about the meaning of the word 'democratic'. I used to think it meant 'rule by the people', and often mistaken to be rule of the majority. If I start a religion which makes it imperative to wage holy war, and by chance this religion is in a majority, then by 'democratic process' it would mean, jihad is legal, and should be allowed.
No Institution is democratic.
(*) Can the soldiers elect who their general should be, or is it hierarchical?
(*) Can the students elect who their principal should be?
(*) Can you elect who your father should be ?
(*) Can the 1.3 billion chinese elect who their premier should be?
(*) With a 'mandate' of mere 26%, look what is going on in India under Extra constitutional authority. Is this what you boast of as democracy?
(*) Can the 800 million Indians vote out the rest of the religions from India ? If there is to be democracy in religion, then we should first vote which religion goes (stolen from reality television.)
All this talk about democratizing religion is impossible in India, and those who advocate are the brainwashed children of the Macaulayism.
I have absolutely no right to doubt Sri Jayendral, and I stand by my Guru in this hour of test. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 02:55 PM |
| Sunder, Excellent !! Kudos |
| Posted by: Vajramuni Nov 23 2004, 02:58 PM |
| Take your Democracy and shove it! Karma Rocks! Greece & Rome were Democratic for how long?, they are a barbarian race. If democracy is freedom, animals have rights to live just like any other human, ie we don kill them, we wont destroy their habitat etc, in fact you would not even domesticate them. How long do you think this Democracy will last? Hindu way of life is for life preservation, preservation of a civilization & its people and upliftment to a higher plane one person at a time. It is pretty hard in Kali yuga still many do advance. Karma control the fate of every being & a society as a whole. You dont want GOD discarding you. I am not talking BS here. I am the one who ROCKS! To be a Rock & not to Roll! |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 23 2004, 03:08 PM | ||
Thanks Mudy  |
| Posted by: gangajal Nov 23 2004, 03:17 PM |
| A clarification: Several posters have misinterpreted my statement about democratic. It is obviously absurd to elect a Shankaracharya. I meant that the time has come for the Shankaracharyas themselves to open the posts to all jatis. Obvioulsy the person selected must be morally excellent. This is my suggestion since otherwise the scoundrels who call themselves politicians will continue to interfere in Hindu religious affairs. I did not give my suggestion simply because I felt better. What is happening in TN is only a variant of what has happened in other states. In West Bengal the caste system does not play much of a role in politics. There the interference occurs in a different manner. CPIM govt wanted to pack the RKM run schools, colleges and orpahanages with their cadres. The CPIM cadres even beat up RKM swamis running some of these institutions. This forced RKM to go to the court and declare itself as a minority institution. They lost the case but gained 20 valuable years. The CPIM Govt is now bankrupt and leaves RKM alone. Apart from caste reforms what is needed is constitutional change. On the one hand the constitution is secular, on the other hand minorities get special favor. All religious institutions need to get protection from these maurading politicians. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 23 2004, 04:45 PM | ||
This is a good summary. Hope somebody can put up the points just like we did for the IDRF episode. There is just way too much BS that needs to be flushed down the toilet.  |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 23 2004, 05:24 PM | ||||
This is interesting, we know in IF how difficult it was for some people to understand-
v) Even a child would say that an helicopter cannot go to Nepal at 1000 miles distance to cover, it would require 12 hours to reach Nepal and a minimum of 5 refuelings. Would it ever be possible to escape like this?
iii) The Swamiji is an Z security person....
Now this moron is making U-turn, when he will take dip in gutter. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 23 2004, 09:37 PM |
| http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?template=Seerarrest&slug=Jaya+slams+Karunanidhi+for+%22turnaround%22&id=64100&callid=1&category=National&headline=Jaya~slams~Karunanidhi~for~ |
| Posted by: Praneet N Nov 24 2004, 03:17 AM |
| As read on timesofindia : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/934149.cms http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/ http://www.kamakoti.org/ |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 04:55 AM | ||
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411241530.htm
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| Posted by: chandramoulee Nov 24 2004, 05:28 AM |
| Kadiravan, on whose confessional statement tne prosecution case more or less rests seems to have retracted. He appears to have claimed that he was tortured by the police and statements were extracted out of him. Adds weight what all of us in this Forum have been saying all along. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 05:42 AM | ||||
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/933633.cms
The PP, Mr. Doraiswamy, should be a very busy man
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| Posted by: Viren Nov 24 2004, 08:02 AM |
| It frequently comes up about the victim opposing JS's trip to China as there was some ocean crossing limitation. Which ocean between Tamil Nadu and China are we talking about here? |
| Posted by: bengurion Nov 24 2004, 08:13 AM |
| http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/24kanchi.htm Its the latest fashion in indian criminal justice system!! bengurion. |
| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 24 2004, 08:47 AM |
| What does Samudra Gupta have to say on this ? Seer case: Key accused say they confessed under torture Wednesday November 24 2004 19:19 IST KANCHEEPURAM: Two key accused in the Sankararaman murder case in which Kanchi seer Jayendra Saraswathi has been arrested, on Wednesday alleged before a court here that they were tortured by the police during their custody. Kathiravan, who had made an in-camera statement under Sec 164 of CRPC on November 19, told Judicial Magistrate-I G Uthamaraj that he was kept under illegal custody by the police from November 3 before he was produced in a court on November 9 for remand. Another accused Rejini alias Chinna also intervened to say that he too was tortured by the police and he suffering from some health problems. He said that his wife had sent a telegram to the Chief Judicial Magistrate seeking his intervention. The two made the remarks when they were brought to the court for extension of remand. Kathiravan during his submission said that the police compelled him to endorse whatever they said in the case. After recording their submissions, the magistrate extended their remand till December 8. Kathiravan was remanded to judicial custody till November 24. In the meantime, the police sought two days police custody for Kathiravan, which the magistrate granted till November 18. But the police produced him before the court on November 17 itself and submitted that he wanted to make the statement under Sec 164 of the CRPC. Accordingly he was produced before the Judicial Magistrate II V Damodaran the next day for preliminary formalities in connection with statement. He made the three-hour long in-camera statement on Nov 19. Kathiravan on Wednesday said he was picked up on November 3 when he was returning after seeing off his "boss" Appu, a co-accused in the case, at the Koyambedu bus terminal in Chennai. First he was taken to a bungalow on the East Coast Road near Chennai and kept confined there for two days. The police told him that he should say whatever they asked him to say. On the night of November 4, he was taken to Hotel Paramount near Sriperumbudur where he was beaten up and forced to make a statement on the lines of those given by the police, he alleged, adding that he made the statement in the presence of a tasildar which was videographed. Again the next day, he was asked to repeat the statement during his detention. Kathiravan alleged that even during judicial custody in Chennai central prison, he was kept in a separate cell and was treated like a terrorist. His brother was taken away by the police when he came to meet him. Only his sister was allowed to meet him. He also said that he was suffering from wheezing problems and had asked the jail authorities to provide him medical attention. However, it was not provided, he claimed. His confinement in the solitary cell made him feel that he was going mad, Kathiravan said and appealed to the court to pass an order to keep him along with other accused in the case. On seeing the accused making a turn-around, police brought the Assistant Public Prosecutor Vijayaragavan who objected to the recording of Kathiravan's statement. Kathiravan's counsel Kumaran said that there was nothing wrong on the part of the remand prisoner making submissions before the court and statement under Sec 164 CRPC was totally different. The magistrate also concurred with the defence counsel's submission and said, "I have to record whatever the remand prisoner says." He asked Kathiravan to write down whatever he wanted to say. But, Kathiravan said he could not write because the police had broken his hands. Following this, the magistrate himself started writing down the statement. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 09:18 AM | ||
Now, the learned judge should take suo motu notice of the human rights violations and attempt to "fabricate" evidence and order a probe and arrest the police officers, if found guilty. |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 24 2004, 09:26 AM |
| http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/24flip.htm?headline=Column:~Case~against~seer~is~feeble - T V R Shenoy |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 09:27 AM |
| With the retraction of Kadhiravan's confession, the last vestige of the "shocking evidence" stands thoroughly demolished. We have seen one-by-one how this case was a completely "fabricated"one, with such flimsy evidences as the cell-phone theory, the fleeing-to-Nepal-in-a-helicopter-by-a-Zclass-security-person theory, the confession theory, the unsigned-typewritten-letters theory, the motive-for-murder theory etc. No wonder, I do not see jumping Jacks here any more. The effort now seems to be to foist other cases on HH and keep him inside the jail probably hoping to suppress the truth forever. Both Kadiravan and Appu are somehow closely connected with MGR. I won't be surprised if there is a deeper and sinister angle to this whole episode. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 09:35 AM | ||
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/002200411241819.htm
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| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 24 2004, 09:42 AM |
| JJ having stolen the thunder out of MK , MK is trying to assert his USP. Leaves both of them looking stupid. But this is not over guys - they will try to manufacture some new things day in and out for a long period. Amma would be particularly catty. Meantime all national parties should take this into account and always remember this -> DMK/AIADMK are just one and the same headed by two equally obnoxious leaders. One should make sure they dont have much leverage in coalition govts of future. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 24 2004, 09:48 AM | ||
From Shenoy's article..
This is the key.. Any ideas ? |
| Posted by: Viren Nov 24 2004, 09:53 AM | ||
Building some political muscle seems to be the only way out. Is there a 'separation of church/temple/mosque from state' kind of stipulations in India?
|
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 10:16 AM |
| http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20041124075950&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=337& |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 10:21 AM | ||
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20041124081122&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=337&
|
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 24 2004, 10:21 AM |
| The issue is not so much the flimsiness of the case against the acharya, so much as the fact that Jaya and her cohorts thought they could get away with this. The word is out that the Hindu is a pusillanimous pussyfooter incapable of defending the honor of his faith, given to rationalizations belittlling the sginificance of these events. Suffice it to say that no other major religion would permit such blatant trampling of its civil rights. I hope this triggers a backlash amongst the Hindu brethren but to be frank i am hoping against hope and there is very little precedent supporting my assumption. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 10:23 AM | ||
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20041124081122&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=337&
|
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 10:37 AM | ||
This case has to be fought in two fronts, firstly in the courts to prove the innocence of HH and possibly also prove any conspiracy to tarnish the reputation of HH, the Mutt and Hinduism and secondly in people's minds to raise the awareness about their religion and the threats it is facing. |
| Posted by: SSridhar Nov 24 2004, 10:47 AM | ||
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IET20041124003210&Page=T&Title=Southern+News+%2D+Tamil+Nadu&Topic=337&
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 24 2004, 10:49 AM |
| Now Jaya and Karuna had made fool of themselves in front of whole world. Its time to send them to fool's paradise forever, at least that will give some breather to "jumping jacks" of small world. Whole case is flimsy, only one allegation is left for Jaya, sexual harassment case and she being victim "He says she says" or "She says she says" will be fun to watch. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 24 2004, 12:33 PM | ||
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| Posted by: bgravi Nov 24 2004, 01:52 PM | ||
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=EDITS&file_name=edit1%2Etxt&counter_img=1
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| Posted by: vijnan_anand Nov 24 2004, 03:31 PM |
| Samudra Gupta has gone underground. Let us see when he comes back to rake the embers. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 24 2004, 04:28 PM |
| He would still repeat what JJ says. There is overwhelming evidence against Shankaracharya and he has committed three crimes. Added later: All morons including JJ, MK, dravidianists, communists and secularists were advocating all this time that law should take its course. Now as it becomes obvious that it is a fabricated case, what should be the course of law? - Just release Shankaracharya? - Take actions against those custodians of law who abused their power. Shouldn't law take its own course in this direction too? This issue should not be allowed to die by withdrawal of cases against acharya. edited by moderator |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 24 2004, 06:03 PM |
| let us preserve decorum and refrain from name calling at least amongst out members - Kaushal, moderator |
| Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Nov 24 2004, 07:38 PM |
| http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004389&channel=civic%20center Note this Moslem also often posses as a "secularist" The Mystic Masseur Farzana Versey Is the seer only a manipulator? He was in her bedroom. The Kanchi Shankaracharya, Sri Jayendra Saraswathi, was supposed to be blessing the space, but he was chuckling. I looked at the daiquiri-swigging young woman, appropriately dressed for the occasion in designer salwaar-kameez; she whispered in my ear, "Oh, he is so cute!" I am aware that women dig men with a sense of humour, but this was stretching it a bit. Earlier in the evening, the large drawing room of a duplex apartment in an upscale area of Mumbai had been readied for the darshan. The guests sat in rapt attention as he intoned about nothing in particular; then they prostrated before him. A small low table stood between them. (Holy men follow the principle of bar dancers - look, but don't touch.) Later the patriarch of the family presented him with a thick envelope. Since his unstitched robes had no pockets, he handed it to one of his disciples. Many such envelopes must have come his way, which is the only reason I would be interested in his accountant. Which is perhaps the only reason he too might have been interested in his accountant. They are saying he is not an ordinary man, he should not be treated like any other prisoner. True, it is indeed extraordinary for a holy sage to be implicated in the murder of his accountant-manager. He attended conferences overseas, like any academic on a junket; he visited the homes of the rich and famous, he took money for such darshans like any movie star 'gracing' functions; and he played politics, better than most politicians. He was a travelling salesman-cum-broker-cum-corporate honcho. Heading a Rs.5000 crore religious empire is no loose change. I read somewhere that he is the seventh most influential man in the country, and the President and Prime Minister trail behind him. The most powerful people in the land bow before him. Such is the anxiety now that the Catholic Church in Kerala has expressed "deep pain"; elsewhere the maulvis have said his arrest was "reprehensible". Who then are the "anti-Hindu forces" at work? The non-Brahmins? One might be tempted to ask why someone in such a powerful position like the Shankaracharya could not do much to address the issue of the cleavage within Hindu society. He may have 'worked' with Dalits, but supported Tamil Nadu's law against their conversion. A petition had been filed against him for demeaning the Dalit community. A group of them were not allowed to enter the village temple in Kancheepuram. Instead of making it possible for them to do so, the Shankaracharya offered to build a separate temple for them. So, is this about Hinduism? Assuming that the saffron brigade has travelled all over the world in search of nirvana, and are therefore calling him the "holiest man on earth", how does the arrest become a Hindu issue? VHP General Secretary Praveen Togadia asked, "Is it a motive to finish off a Hindu seer and Hindu Society?" How is finishing off a seer, if it be that, the same as finishing off Hindu society? What happened to the ancient civilisation? But the insecurity stems from the usual nitpicking: ".why has no action been taken against Imam Bukhari of Delhi?" Why? Has he been accused of murder? There was a PIL filed against him regarding the use of the mosque's surrounding space for personal/ commercial benefit. He was made accountable. Why can there be no questions of accountability regarding the Kanchi Swami's mutt? Besides, is the Shankaracharya apolitical or secular? If I had my way then I would most definitely book the Kanchi Swami for murder - the murder of the Ayodhya peace plans. His compromise formula was supposed to be implemented on a war footing, but to repeat one off-colour yet apt quote, "Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity." Sri Jayendra Saraswathi knew about every erogenous zone. He talked about de-politicising the issue, but worked with politicians. Even before a court verdict, which is what the Muslims had agreed to with him as mediator, he took part in the Dharma Sansad at the Kumbh Mela in December 2000 to set the deadline for beginning the construction of the Mandir at its chosen site in March 2002. For him the Babri Masjid was "merely a victory memorial, not a place of prayer". Is it any wonder that his devotees like P.V.Narasimha Rao are lauded for their 'piety' in not stopping the installation of Lord Ram's idol? That at a public meeting he could tell the former PM, "Vajpayee, tu bhi mandir banana to chahta hain, par kahta nahin hain (Vajpayee, even you want to build a temple, but cannot say it)"? And how different is he from Narendra Modi when he mouthed the Hindutva line about the Gujarat riots being a reaction to Godhra? If he were a true spiritual leader he would have pulled up his disciples. Instead, he said, "The VHP is doing good work. It is because they have done good work that they have got a good name today." It has been a mutual massage sort of relationship. The Sangh Parivar has had no clout in the South. The seer was their great hope. Today, sitting in jail, eating basic prison food, sleeping on a floor mat, saying his prayers (incidentally, this would be his routine anyway), he is an even greater hope. With absolutely no logic we hear comments like "Hindus have no protection". It is rather unfortunate that a national party in a secular democratic republic urges the community to agitate "throughout Bharat" against the arrest of a man of religion. Where does Bharat come into the picture? Simple. Haven't we been told that Hindutva is nationalism? Therefore, at a time when Hindutva's nationalism is getting shaky, they have found their knight-with-a-staff. Behind bars he makes for a compelling image of the victimised, that too one who was a 'peacemaker'. Nobody tries to understand that he is in prison regarding a murder case and it has nothing to do with his religion or his politics. The devious message being conveyed is: if this is what they can do to a saintly person, can you imagine what will happen to the rest? 80 per cent of the population is being made to believe they are in danger because one man is in prison |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 24 2004, 08:28 PM |
| http://newsinsight.net/nati2.asp?recno=3049&ctg=Politics 23 November 2004: Both former PMs A.B.Vajpayee and Chandrasekhar want the early dismissal of the J.Jayalalithaa government, imposition of President’s rule in Tamil Nadu, and the appointment of a neutral governor, neither close to the Center nor political parties in the state. Especially Chandrasekhar but also Vajpayee are extremely upset with the manner of the Shankaracharya’s arrest, and believe that unless this trend of political victimisation is stopped, it would grow worse to become uncontrollable, and this feeling is shared now by M.Karunanidhi, who says the seer is the victim of vendetta. “Once her government is dismissed,” said an aide of Chandrasekhar, “and elections are held after a space of time, during which the state police apparatus is cleaned up, that will send a message, that political victimisation will not pay. By dismissing Jayalalithaa’s government, others like Mayawati, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Laloo Prasad Yadav, will be deterred.” |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 24 2004, 09:26 PM |
AH !
Okay now , Khadiravans And Appus confession has turned around the case ? No ! Nyet !
Because , one would have to wait for the official chargesheet , which will come in a month or two maybe , to find out evidences upon which the seer was arrested.
It would be most unwise of the prosecution to have to lay all of its claim upon confession of criminals in Police Custody.It never happens in any case.Obivously a criminal would only "talk" under police "interrogation" not when he is under the protection of judicial custody.
Nothing surprising for me , nor for the prosecution.
If someone expects the criminals to confess their crimes so easily , India would go back to the glorious days of Mauryan Empire where dharma reigned supreme. 
I am not going underground.Dont Worry , i will be around. |
| Posted by: AJay Nov 24 2004, 10:44 PM | ||
Looks like you are missing the irony of your own statement. There would not be aby criminals in a such a dharma rajya. The question of confession does not arise.
By the way, we are still waiting for an explanation of why Sri SankarAcharya has been taken to an all women police station. Ocams razor explanation is that it is to humiliate the seer. You have come out saying that all the women police left the station etc. What would have been easier - to restaff the station (which I doubt) or to take the seer to a normal station?
|
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 24 2004, 11:54 PM |
| The seers counsels have made no objections to him lodged in the police station,men or women.Ever wondered why ? |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 25 2004, 12:16 AM | ||
Yes I have, and here is why....
I think it is because they think it is futile to argue with fools.
I think it is because they have chosen to pick their battles and focus on the main case instead of the auxillary ones.
I think it is because a great sage has already been blasphemed against, and this one is another extention to it.
And most importantly it is because no matter what, expecting Justice out of the Hindu Haters like Deekay, (AIA)DMK is foolish. |
| Posted by: Sudhir Nov 25 2004, 12:19 AM | ||
What's your take on this Samudra Gupta? |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 25 2004, 06:39 AM |
| These are indeed sad times for Bharata. There are many who have succumbed to the myth that the source of all evil in our society is the Brahmana. What better way to teach the Brahmana a lesson than to imprison the head brahmana himself. Nothing is to be hated more than the Brahmana himself. His crime - merely that he was a Brahmana . So i asked myself what is it that the Brahmana has done, that is so terrible, that he should earn this burning hatred Did he destroy cities and civilizations, raise a pyramid of skulls to celebrate his victory. No not even Parasurama conjured up that bit of homicidal entertainment . Did he kill all able bodied men, forced the younger women into his harem and enslave the children ? perhaps it is better if he had because then there would have been nobody left to tell the tale, and history as we know would be written by the victors . Did he impose a Jizia tax on those who did not espouse his Brahmanical beliefs, the alternative to which was certain death. Did he gratuitously destroy mosques, churches simply because they did not adhere to his principles and beliefs. It is possible that the crime of the Brahmana is that he demanded high standards of scholarship giving the perception that he was encouraging exclusivity in the membership of his club. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 25 2004, 08:56 AM | ||||||||||
Kaushal,
Well said.
Only mistake Brahmana had made, he had not forced fools to achieve high standard in life.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/nov/25spec1.htm
|
| Posted by: G.Subramaniam Nov 25 2004, 09:08 AM |
| A reminder The kanchi mutt has been targeted for anti-conversion activities I run a very effective anti-conversion program in TN with the collaboration of all hindu organisations If interested please contact me by private emai We need cash and volunteers G.S |
| Posted by: acharya Nov 25 2004, 09:21 AM |
| http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-11-2004_pg3_3 HUM HINDUSTANI: To ‘roots’, without results —J Sri Raman The Tiranga Yatra has left the party’s own banner in tatters. It has served only to intensify intra-party conflicts, particularly in what is seen as “the second line of leadership”. At the end of it all, Bharti finds herself suspended from the party for six years — and has already undertaken a couple of non-political pilgrimages The Bharatiya Janata Party has returned to its “roots”. This, however, does not seem to have returned to it a lost constituency of long years. The revival of its original tactic, after the exposure and failure of its political Track 2, is not apparently taking it even an inch towards a return to power. This, ironically, may be no reason for India’s peace-loving people to rejoice. The BJP also made noises to suggest that it was reviving Ayodhya as a “nationalist movement”. The rest of the National Democratic Alliance (NDA), the coalition the party headed while in power, is not quite ready to fall in line. It may not be easy therefore for the BJP — in line with the parivar fiat — to promise an enactment, if returned to power, to build a temple on the ruins of the demolished Babri Mosque. The party is now in the middle of an agitation to protest against the arrest of another saffron-clad parivar stalwart for murder. For the ‘family’, the arrest of the Shankaracharya of Tamilnadu’s Kanchipuram order is a matter of religious honour. In this case, too, the BJP does not seem to have found the right issue of relevance to its “roots”. It finds itself seriously constrained by the fact that it faces on the other side a Tamilnadu government headed by redoubtable J Jayalalitha, its strongest ally in the south in the parliamentary election. |
| Posted by: bharathpremi Nov 25 2004, 09:25 AM |
| for whatever its worth I sent this letter to nHRC. Please see gurumurthy's article below that. Sir Please note the following article in today's edition of Indian Express. I have read similar news items in several other newspapers, all of which point out the fact that , the accused in Jayendra sarawathi's case have been tortured to get confession. This issue deals with the human rights of swamiji who has been arrested with out following guidelines set forth by the supreme court and also the rights of these individuals who have been tortured under illegal custody. What makes it even more urgent is the fact that Tamilnadu government has arrested the swamiji on the basis of this confession, they have also foisted one more case on the swamiji. I strongly urge you investigate this matter. THank you Madhu Hebbar http://www.newindpress.com/Newsitems.asp?ID=IEH20041125101450&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=-97&On~counter~investigation~we~found~the~case~against~the~Sankaracharya~slippery.~Now~it~turns~out~that~the~case~is~not~just~slippery,~but~actually~groundless~from~day~one.~Not~just~that,~it~involves~a~bit~of~fabrication~too.~Yes,~fabrication~to~fix~the~Acharya... S. Gurumurthy: It’s dead. Who will do the funeral, and when? Friday November 26 2004 00:00 IST S. Gurumurthy On counter investigation we found the case against the Sankaracharya slippery. Now it turns out that the case is not just slippery, but actually groundless from day one. Not just that, it involves a bit of fabrication too. Yes, fabrication to fix the Acharya. The police are now running for cover. They may not give up yet, may fabricate more to put the case, which is virtually dead, on life support system. But the case is irretrievably lost. This dramatic turn came on Wednesday in Kancheepuram Magistrate’s court. The two criminals, on whom the police had exclusively ‘relied’ to name the Sankaracharya as an accused in the case, have actually turned to accuse the police as fabricators of the case itself! On November 24, Kathiravan and Rajni were brought to the Kancheepuram magistrate’s court for extending their judicial remand. At that time Kathiravan wished to make a statement. The prosecution protested, ‘his confession having been recorded in camera, he should not be allowed to speak’! The court overruled, asked Kathiravan to write his statement. As his hand had been rendered inoperative by the police bashing, the magistrate himself recorded his statement. In the next few minutes, speaking extempore, Kathiravan demolished the police case against the Acharya, exposed them as fabricators of the case against him. He told the court that he, along with his friends, was arrested on November 3. Not, as the police lied, on November 9. [His lawyers had recorded this fact on Nov 3 itself] That between November 4 and November 8, under police torture he said what the police wanted him to say. That he was kept in a Marwari’s house in Uthandi, on the outskirts of Chennai for two days and beaten black and blue. That he was shown to different persons as Kathiravan [so that they may say they knew him, even though they did not know him]. That from Nov 4 to 8, he was kept in ‘Paramount Hotel’ in Sriperumpudur in Room nos 108 and 109, and was tortured to confess ‘as the police wanted’. That he was made to sign on blank sheets. That on Nov 9, he was made to stay in the office of the Additional Superintendent of Police, Kancheepuram, and in the night made to say, ‘whatever the police wanted him to say’ in front of a video camera and in the presence of the Tehsildar. That he was remanded the next day, November 10. That between Nov 15 and 17 he was pressurised to make judicial confession under sec 164 of the Penal Code ‘as the police wanted’. That he was not allowed to meet his relatives, his brother too was arrested. That.... Kathiravan went on. All this Kathiravan told a stunned court and the public totally spontaneously. He corroborated his statements with events, places, and dates. He demonstrated that the police were fixing the Acharya through him. He admitted that his confessions to the police and to the Tehsildar, used to arrest the Acharya, were obtained under duress. So the star witness against the Acharya in the court is today the star witness against the police in public! But the more dangerous is the testimony of Rajni alias Chinna who also said that he was bashed up for days to tell lies against himself and the Acharya. He lost his teeth in police bashing. He exhibited his injuries to the court. What he said was also identical to what Kathiravan said. Yet both had never met before. He may be the smoking gun against the police who know he is not involved in the crime at all! He is a petty pickpocket, cannot even wield a blade, according to insiders. Rajni also claimed to have a copy of the telegram he had sent to the Chief Justice of the Madras High Court complaining of the torture! Statements of Kathiravan and Rajni are highly corroborated, also spontaneous. They were all along in police custody. Even their relatives were not allowed to meet them. Kathiravan and Rajni cases are fit for the National Human Rights Commission to act suo moto. If the NHRC does not, some one will have to move it. That will expose the forces that have fabricated the case and fixed the Acharya. Now after what Kathiravan and Rajni told the Magistrate at Kancheepuram, not the Sankaracharya, but the police stand accused. But still it is Sankaracharya who is in jail and those who are accused of fixing him by fabrication are keeping him in jail. This bizarre situation is a product of a perverted investigation and an equally perverted decision to arrest the Sankaracharya on the basis of a perverted investigation. Yes the prosecution has all but collapsed. The only question is who will do the funeral for it and when. It can happen forthwith if the State realises it has been misled by police. Or years later though courts. Emboldened by the dishonesty of the media the police may still attempt more fabrication to fix the Acharya. But it will get into more trouble and also get the government into more embarrassment. But who will admit that the case is dead? Not the media which virtually turned the prosecutor, nor the State whose police is the fixer. Then who, except the court? [Writer’s email: comment@gurumurthy.net] |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 25 2004, 12:57 PM |
| November 24th 2004 Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, The Right Hon. President of India Rashtrapati Bhavan, New Delhi, 110011, India Your Excellency, The dastardly malicious arrest of His Holiness Sri Jayendra Saraswati, the Shankaracharya of Kanchi Peeth, on the eve of the sacred of Hindu festival of Deepawali, by the Tamil Nadu police has come as a rude shock to all Hindus. The arrest of Swamiji is a mortal affront to more than one billion Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists around the world. With the emerging allegations that two of the prime accused were tortured by Tamil Nadu Police, it is evident that the normal constitutional machinary has broken down in the state of Tamil Nadu. There are serious doubts about the impartiality of the state police and judiciary which is heavily infiltrated by political functionaries of DMK and AIADMK. It is obvious that the cases against His Holiness are politically motivated. The arrest and humiliation of the most revered Kanchi seer on the day before Deepavali is a slap on the face of all practising Hindus. A concerted and calculated campaign of defamation of Hindu symbols, leaders, and ideals has been unleashed. I am also gravely concerned that the UPA government did nothing to prevent this atrocity on a revered Hindu seer. As the voice of more than one billion Hindus across the world, I urge the Government of India for an immediate and unconditional release of the Kanchi Seer. I also demand an impartial probe by the CBI into the mode of this hasty and vindictve arrest. I further demand immediate dismissal of the Jayalalita ministry and imposition of president's rule in the state of Tamil Nadu under article 356 of Indian constitution as the constitutional machinary has broken down in that state. Sincerely, Dr. Adityanjee Minnesota, USA |
| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 25 2004, 02:25 PM | ||
See the news below. Looks like Super PM has finally told the PM what to say on the issue or maybe it is the mass protests in delhi that is doing the trick.
The PM's previous statement on the issue bordered on indifference - something like 'What does it have to do with the center'.
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 25 2004, 02:37 PM |
| New statement/letter by Madam Singh only reflects lack understanding of common man feeling and Extra Consitutunal power had no regards for Hinduism and one should not even expect anything anyway from her. She should be shown road to Italy along with her stooges. Our leaders should be people like seer not Antonio or Madam Singh or laloo or MK. |
| Posted by: Sunder Nov 25 2004, 06:56 PM |
| http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=59624 LUCKNOW, NOVEMBER 25: Furious after contempt notices were issued to 35 lawyers of the Allahabad District Court for going on strike on November 22 over the arrest of Kanchi Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati, lawyers of the city today went on a rampage, ransacking the chambers of the judges who passed the order and damaging their official vehicles. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 25 2004, 10:09 PM |
| One Malayalam news paper Mathrubhumi (http://mathrubhumi.com/mathru/archive/date-26/html/national.htm scroll down to second subheadline if you can read it) reports that the latest edition of Tamil weekly Nakkeran reports that Shankaracharya made some kind of confession. Can somebody check Nakkeran and verify? I tried but could not get the fonts to read it. Funny thing is no other news paper has reported this and how Nakkeran is getting this kind of news? I find that news to be another cooked up one to translate and put here. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 25 2004, 10:54 PM | ||||||
TN govt transfers key police officials
http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13618333
Sankararaman’s widow identifies killers
http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13618436
Kaushalji
When i stirred up such topics like Brahmins , hinduism , caste etc , i was directed to open a new thread to discuss such issues.If you deem it required that such topics are to be discussed properly , i humbly request we do so in a thread devoted to that. |
| Posted by: acharya Nov 26 2004, 09:01 AM |
| Users in their zeal for their intent to exhibit "hinduism" have made such ignorant posts that they go to extremes just like in the case of another religion.I accuse those members of being inclined towards fundamentalism.
WHy the quotes? |
| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 26 2004, 10:05 AM | ||
MK is scared. Maybe he knows is going to be arrested next and he knows it so he puts himself into a hospital.
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| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 26 2004, 10:07 AM | ||
What is with all the transfers. What is JJ upto now. Is she going to use Bad Police work as an issue release Acharya and as well get MK into trouble. I smell a rat here. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 26 2004, 10:23 AM |
| Fat lady is cooking some thing new. Get ready. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 26 2004, 11:34 AM |
| http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411262127.htm?headline=Case~against~Seer~a~revengeful~act~of~Jayalalithaa:~Sena http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411261923.htm?headline=Pontiff's~arrest~to~defame~top~Hindu~religious~leaders:VHP Mumbai, Nov. 26 (PTI): Terming Kanchi Sankaracharya Jayendra Saraswathi's arrest as a "part of a larger conspiracy to defame top Hindu religious leaders", the VHP today lamented the lack of a political party to take up the cause of Hindu society and favoured the revival of Janasangh. "It is part of a larger conspiracy to malign character of top Hindu religious leaders by slapping fake cases against them and exhort people to embrace Christianity. Unfortunately, no political power is working to safeguard the interests of Hindus and we favour revival of Janasangh", VHP President Ashok Singhal, told a press conference here. Singhal blamed Congress President Sonia Gandhi, for Sankaracharya's arrest and alleged "she is acting at the instance of the Pope and the entire matter is linked to conversions". |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 26 2004, 11:45 AM |
| http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200411261901.htm?headline=Kanchi~Seer~to~spend~another~fortnight~in~Vellore~Central~Jail |
| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 26 2004, 12:53 PM | ||
2 more accused point finger at TN police. TN Police in this case must be part of DMK.
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| Posted by: Mudy Nov 26 2004, 07:39 PM |
| Shri Shanmugam, a member of the Dalit Community belonging to Ayyampalayam of Palladam Taluk is an ardent worker of the Hindu Munnani.He had committed suicide this morning. In a note left, he had stated that he is laying his life for the noble cause of Kanchi Seer's immediate release. He also stated that he has none else to save his community from forcible conversion to other religious sects DEEP CONDOLENCE media center coimbatore. 22 Nov. 2004 |
| Posted by: rhytha Nov 26 2004, 11:33 PM | ||
how stupid 
His death is not going to cause any ripple in the seer case, but his family will forever have to cope up with his death.
This type of stupid stunts are only done by political party's workers  |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 27 2004, 07:35 AM |
| I really dont know what to make of this story in Outlook India. Seems ridiculous. http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20041206&fname=Shankaracharya+(F)&sid=1 The Shankaracharya's confessions run the whole gamut, from murder to math funds Updates S. ANAND "To powerful ministers and industrialists I was a ladder, now the ladder's broken; I held the Brahmins of this country together like a sack, that sack's torn; to the Dalits I was a vessel that offered them water, that vessel's broken." —Jayendra Saraswati in his testimony to the police With tears rolling down his cheeks, Jayendra Saraswati, the Shankaracharya of the Kanchi math, has admitted to his role in the murder of A. Sankararaman, manager of the Varadarajaperumal temple in Kanchipuram. Over three days (September 19-21) at the All-Women's police station in Kanchipuram, Jayendra Saraswati unburdened himself to three superintendents of police. A senior officer Outlook spoke to gave details of the confessions which have also been videographed. There is a catch though—statements made in custody are not admissible as evidence in a court of law. But the entire exercise has filled in the gaps for the investigating team trying to put together the sequence of events. One member of the interrogation team said the Shankaracharya, in a "repentful mood", admitted that Sankararaman had become a thorn in his flesh with his letters (over three years) threatening to expose the wrongdoings at the math. The letters left him "sleepless, tortured and deeply upset". The "empire" the Shankaracharya had painfully built up over two decades was being destabilised. "His sensational allegations angered me. It would anger anybody," Jayendra Saraswati told the police. When Sankararaman's last letter (August 30) arrived, Ravi Subramaniam, a Chennai-based contractor and staunch devotee of the math, was present with Jayendra Saraswati. "How long do I have to suffer this torture? Is there no end to this? I should henceforth receive no letter from him," the Shankaracharya apparently told Ravi, who had helped in the construction of some math buildings. The latter reportedly said he'd ensure the letter from Sankararaman was the last, but added that this would involve some expenditure. The Shankaracharya ordered math manager N. Sundaresan to make the necessary arrangements. Ravi then contracted Appu alias Krishnaswamy for the murder. In an interview to Nakkheeran (September 25), Jayendra Saraswati had admitted that "some of my bhaktas may have been responsible for Sankararaman's end". It appears the unnamed bhaktas were Ravi and Appu. Both are at large and special teams of the police are even now hot on their trail. Appu, perhaps getting wind of the impending arrest, had obtained clearance from the Madras HC on November 4 to visit the US for three months on medical grounds. The permission has now been stayed. It was Appu who allegedly hired the six killers. Also a devotee of Jayendra Saraswati, he's been involved with the math for over two years. The police have confiscated photographs and video-recordings showing the Shankaracharya with Appu. One such photograph—taken a few weeks before the murder at a marriage the Shankaracharya graced—features a shirtless Appu offering paadapuja to Jayendra Saraswati. Police say Appu was earlier an associate of senior DMK leader Arcot N. Veerasamy, minister in the 1996-01 Karunanidhi government. "It was while working for Veerasamy that Appu became powerful in the city," says a police officer. Ravi Subramaniam, estranged from his wife, came to the math seeking the Shankaracharya's counsel on "family problems". Over the years, he became a confidant of Jayendra Saraswati. A senior math hand confirms that Ravi was a regular visitor "who could get an audience with the swami any time he wished". Just like Ravi would confide in Jayendra Saraswati, the latter too began to confide in his bhakta. In 2002, when the seer felt unduly bothered by S.Radhakrishnan, a math functionary, Ravi introduced Appu to the math.Subsequently, Radhakrishnan, his wife and an associate were attacked in September '02 by Appu's men. Soon, Appu, earlier booked under the Tamil Nadu Goonda Act, also became a regular at the math. During interrogation, Jayendra Saraswati is said to have confessed that Appu was in touch via cellphone before and after the murder. Even Kadiravan, one of the six alleged hitmen, called him on the cellphone after the murder. Kadiravan though refuted everything this week before the court, saying he had been tortured by the police into making a statement. An investigating officer says "this doesn't mean much. He was produced before a magistrate five times but never said anything about torture". Regretting his action, Jayendra Saraswati apparently told the police: "In 10 minutes, my mind faltered, and my life has been ruined." Says a senior member of the police team, "Jayendra Saraswati had not opened up to anyone since the murder. After speaking to us and all the tears, he felt emotionally relieved. The three-day confession has had a psycho-therapeutic effect on him. He was asking for forgiveness and said he was always thinking of the several tribulations that even Hindu gods underwent." When asked why he hadn't contacted any of the powerful people he knew to deal with Sankararaman, Jayendra Saraswati reportedly said: "I'm used to powerful people coming and seeking my counsel and favours. How could I confess to them about my problems?" The Shankaracharya has apparently named several retired judges, senior police and government officials too who sought him out for favours, from quarry contracts to governor postings. "If the math operates more than 120 trusts today, it's because a lot of black money and hawala money of the rich and famous finds its way here." He also claims to being a "radical and revolutionary Shankaracharya" who gave the math a national profile. The bitter infighting in the Kanchi math also came to the fore. The Shankaracharya told the police that his junior, Vijayendra Saraswati, was a "very duplicitous person". Asked about the reported sex scandals, the pontiff replied, "You must ask that fellow and his brother Raghu about it." Jayendra Saraswati now wants to return to the math to "cleanse and reform it". While realising it may be impossible for him to resume his old duties—"Who will respect me now?"—he is keen on installing a new Shankaracharya higher in rank to Vijayendra. The Shankaracharya's judicial custody in the murder case ends on November 26, but before that he goes before a magistrate in Chennai in the Radhakrishnan assault case. On November 23, the Shankaracharya was served an arrest memo for his role in it. The enmity with Radhakrishnan also owed to his threat of an expose on the siphoning off of math funds. Meanwhile, the bjp's moves to mobilise public opinion on the issue have come to naught. L.K. Advani called on Jayendra Saraswati at the Vellore jail and on Vijayendra Saraswati in Kanchi, and was at a rally in Chennai on November 22. But Madras HC judge P.D. Dinakaran's observations—revoking any public meeting supporting or protesting the arrest—should have a sobering effect on the Hindutva brigade. Anyway, other than Brahmin groups conducting yagnas and lighting lamps, there's been little other public reaction. It's hardly surprising, since even locals in Kanchipuram feel the math has done little for them. Says Vasudevan, a Brahmin who mans a small store, "They were always looking to expand their real estate holdings. They took over the houses of several Brahmins here by cajoling or threatening them. When the math asks you to write your property in their name, you voluntarily surrender or they send goons after you." The math owns several such houses in the temple town. Jayendra Saraswati himself has confessed to his real estate involvements.In Chennai, prime property owned by the math on Spur Tank Road, Chetpet, was sold to Heritage Property Development Company. The builder, V. Krishnaprasadh, is developing a luxury 40-apartment complex there, Heritage Sankara—the going rate for one flat: Rs 52 lakh. In return, the math is getting a 25,000 sq ft 'Jagadguru Sri Jayendra Saraswati Peetarohana Swarna Jayanthi Mandapam' "with exclusive darshan/restrooms for Their Holiness". For now though, the Shankaracharya must rest awhile in his small cell at the Vellore prison. |
| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 27 2004, 08:15 AM | ||
Lsrini
This is just the Police and the 'Secular' media trying to sow doubts in peoples minds.
Your strength lies in being rational enough to distinguish between lies and truth depending on who is making the statement.
Also it is the same police who have also reported that Acharya answered very few questions and would go into deep meditation after the questions were asked. |
| Posted by: Kaushal Nov 27 2004, 08:19 AM |
| The outlook article looks like a hatchet job with a liberal sprinkling of anti-Brahmana sentiment thrown in for good measure. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 09:39 AM | ||||
http://headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13618934&headline=Politics~behind~Kanchi~seer’s~arrest
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 27 2004, 12:35 PM | ||
xposting Mudy's link posted in another thread..
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411272064.htm?headline=BJP~flays~Govt.~on~Soren's~re-induction,~to~raise~it~in~Parliament
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 27 2004, 12:50 PM | ||
From outlook story..
Interesting.. If it cant be used as evidence then why release it ? Who released it ? |
| Posted by: Administrator Nov 27 2004, 01:14 PM |
| Post related to priesthood are now under http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showforum=10 Please stick to news and discussion related to arrest and on going case only under this thread. |
| Posted by: AlbertPinto Nov 27 2004, 03:30 PM | ||
Police comments on Outlook story
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 08:46 PM |
| Here comes comment from person who himself is joker and confused person. http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200411280311.htm?headline=Sankaracharya~issue:~Agnivesh~flays~PM,~BJP |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 09:51 PM |
| no url-from somewhere "As per Star News channel, on 19th November, during the interrogation, Swamiji informed that he is not going to let Junior pontiff to be the Mathdhipati. He will appoint another shishya (Chartered Accountant turned sanyasi of Math) as next Shankaracharya. He is reported to have exposed Junior pontiff's misdeeds to the police officers. No information in print media, seems like another rumor from typical TN politics --- |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 27 2004, 10:09 PM |
| As per Mudys post , looks like the shamefull infighting in the kanchi mutt will , in the near future be made public. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 10:20 PM |
| samudra_gupta, There is no confirm information, majority of them are rumors. Lot of nonsense is floating in English media which are having solid Left and congress backing. Objective is to insult Seer and mutt. |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 27 2004, 10:45 PM |
| Now Appu is wanted for murder/Suicide of Ramesh and his family (close to Mu Ka Stalin, Ramesh was to become approver in an extortion case).
The police seems to have CRACKED the case when they interrogated people for Sankararaman murder.
http://www.dinamalar.com/2004nov28/fpnews4.asp
I read about this somewhere and that JJ was trying to use the Sankararaman murder to set the stage to arrest Stalin for this. But it looks like the JJ does not want to antagonise dmk completely now.
There are two possibilities why police are foisting one more case on Appu
1) He is already in police custody and police wants to solve one more murder
or
2)Appu is absconding and they are trying to flush him out (imagine Appu surrendering to the police and saying he is involved in only the Sankararaman murder!!) If he does not surrender shortly, we will see more cases on Appu!
Would be interesting to see what happens. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 10:48 PM |
| Who is Mu Ka Stalin? |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 27 2004, 11:01 PM |
| Muthuvel Karunanidhi's son. projected future leader of dmk. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 11:04 PM |
| LSrini , thanks. Is he MK's legal son or illegitimate son? |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 27 2004, 11:10 PM |
| all of MK's children are legitimate. He is not ashamed of letting everyone know what he is!! |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 27 2004, 11:12 PM | ||
Someone posted here regarding his two wives and two set of families, One set will be legal and other should be illegal according to Law. |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 27 2004, 11:57 PM |
| He refers one of the women as wife and refers to the remaining partners (I dont think it is just 2) as "my-child's-mother". children are all legitimate, but dont know about the women. no-one cares. i guess they are all well-off and maintained. This polygamous behaviour is also supposed to be the reason why Stalin is against MK's other son Alagiri (thru another woman) , who is said to be exiled to Madurai (where Alagiri got involved in a murder of a dmk member who was close to stalin. alagiri was arrested for the murder and later let off on bail.... and some whole lot of stories like that....) but all is beside the point. The point is that the press is printing whatever the police wants them to. there is a convergence of motivation in defaming JS and the kanchi mutt. |
| Posted by: chandramoulee Nov 28 2004, 12:34 AM |
| Kanchi Mutt has denied that the Acharya 'confessed' and the other whole set of rumours. It has also threatened to take legal action against the TV channel which is telecasting this 'story' along with lots of graphics.. I tend to believe Subramanyam Swamy and his thesis of 'conspiracy' by Antonia Maino while secretly tempting JJ with offers of favourable decisions in her pending case! I think the sittuation will clarify when the bail applications come up at the High Courts tomorrow |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 28 2004, 01:16 AM |
| The Mathrubhumi report which I mentioned earlier writes that Nakkeran reported those two news (1) Acharya's confession in front of camera and (2) that he won't let Junior Acharya to be the head. There was one more piece which made me puke and I decided not to translate the article. Since all these news are coming piece by piece let me translate the third part also. It goes as ...Acharya begged the police, please forgive me. As per my horoscope I would live till 76 and I'm already 70. Only 6 more years and please forgive me.... Acharya asked if he could talk to CM. The police officers said if he could talk in front of a camera they could deliver that to JJ. He said in the video "I lost my senses for 10 minutes. You are the goddess in Kamakshi Amman Temple. I bow you, please forgive me and let me go. I won't forget this till my death" (I don't think that a Shankaracharya has to say this and it could very well be a planted article through Nakkeran) |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 28 2004, 09:20 AM |
| ashyam, It is a good example How media destroy person but here they are also destroying Hindu identity. Now it is getting clearer who are behind and people who are enjoying are foot soldiers of continuous centuries old destruction of Hindu identity. |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 28 2004, 11:42 AM |
| http://www.manoramaonline.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=manorama/MmArticle/CommonFullStory&c=MmArticle&channel=News&cid=1101586446484&colid=1002279818293&count=10&p=1002194839129&rendermode=dynamic |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 28 2004, 11:45 AM |
| http://www.kanchi-sathya.org/ |
| Posted by: ashyam Nov 28 2004, 12:15 PM |
| http://www.manoramaonline.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=manorama/MalArticle/Malfullstory&cid=1101586444098&c=MalArticle&p=1009975921455&colid=1009962625225&channel=MalNews&count=11 Chennai: In an interview to Tamil weekly (it doesn't say which weekly) Kathiravan accused that the TN police threatened to shoot him if he did not give statement against Shankaracharya. He also said that police tortured him to make the statement. Two weeks back Kathiravan made a private confession to Kanchipuram court that he murdered Shankararaman as per the instruction of Acharya. Later he changed his stance and accused that he made the earlier statement because of pressure from police. Now the accusation of police murder threat also came up. Weekly claims that it interviewed Kathiravan by passing questions to him through a number of visitors who visited him in jail. He said that police hung him upsidedown while in custody. A number of times police would point the revolver to his head and threaten to kill him and would tell the public that they shot him when he tried to escape. It is because of this fear he made the private confession in court. He got courage to tell the truth only after he was moved to jail from police custody. He and his boss Appu had been to Kanchi mutt a number of times but he said he did not have any personal relation with the Acharya. He also denied the charge that he and Shankaracharya spoke many times over phone. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 28 2004, 04:23 PM | ||
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 28 2004, 05:01 PM | ||
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 28 2004, 05:06 PM | ||
From times of Islambad
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/939382.cms
I was waiting for this stunt, last stunt will be his daughter from nowhere will be produced. |
| Posted by: Nikhil Nov 28 2004, 09:11 PM |
All I think of is, if people of shankryacharya status can be SCREWED than wuts the value of regular tom d!ck and harry in India?? I definately don't want my kids to raise up in INDIA or even anywhere close to it, place just stinks now with some much flith going against HINDUS and upper caste 
What we need is not sucking up and pampering dalits/lowercastes/muslims/xtians/psecs since thats what we been doing since last 50-60 years!
We need to stand up to our rights, enough with all the crap! If 4 million jews can protect themself from 1.2 billion muslims, than uppercaste hindus can protect themself also, all they need is arms in hands!
If you dont agree, that is fine, but now SC/ST quota is coming in private service areas also, there is hardly any other way to survive! |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 28 2004, 10:08 PM | ||||||
Planning to start a armed rebellion against the Indian Government huh ?
J/K
Dont Worry , DNA tests are now available.
 |
| Posted by: Nikhil Nov 28 2004, 10:36 PM | ||
Naah.. indian govt is not that strong!
Indian govt is a prostitute, one can buy it for the right price!!  |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 29 2004, 04:53 AM |
| What is this?????? This is in the New Indian Express. http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20041129051249&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=0& Monday November 29 2004 16:52 IST PTI CHENNAI: The Tamil Nadu government on Monday informed the Madras High Court that the Kanchi seer, Jayendra Saraswathi, "broke down" during interrogation and "confessed to his involvement" in the murder of the temple official, Sankararaman. Appearing on behalf of the prosecution, senior counsel from Delhi, K T S Tulsi informed the Court that the "Kancheepuram Sankaracharya had broken down and confessed to his involvement." Opposing the seer's bail application, the second one filed by him in the Sankararaman murder case, Tulsi said that in the interrogation, which has been video-graphed, "he seems to be now realising that it was a mistake." Arguments on the bail application before Justice R Balasubramaniam will continue on Tuesday in the Madras High Court. |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 29 2004, 04:59 AM |
| http://www.newindpress.com/newsItems.asp?id=IEL20041129031922&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&rLink=337 Monday November 29 2004 17:10 IST UNI CHENNAI: The sensational ''Sankararaman murder case'', involving Kanchi Acharya Jayendra Saraswati, on Monday took a new turn with police alleging the involvement of a woman, close to the seer, in the murder case. Opposing grant of bail to the Acharya, the prosecution, in its counter-affidavit, filed before Madras High Court on Monday morning, said the seer should not be granted bail as the police needed to probe the involvement of the woman. It said Usha, ''a deserted woman'' hailing from Srirangam in Tiruchirapalli district, was found to be involved in the conspiracy to eliminate Sankararaman, the manager of the Varadaraja Perumal temple, along with the seer. The prosecution said that the Acharya was in the habit of talking to the woman in the early of hours and the call used to last for 900 pulse units. The seer had also arranged a free quarters for Usha in Srirangam, and substantial amount of money had been transferred periodically to her through bank. She had withdrawn the entire amount and was presently absconding, the prosecution said. The prosecution said the custodial interrogation, clearly revealed the complicity of the seer in the murder case. It also offered to provide details of the interrogation to the court. Countering the defence argument that the mutt had no account with the Kancheepuram branch of ICICI bank, the prosecution said that the mutt was maintaining ten accounts with the bank. The prosecution further said that the seer had reason to lock horns with the slain Sankararaman as the latter had threatened that he ''will expose the misdeeds''. The deceased Sankararaman had also alleged that women used to stay in the Kanchi mutt after 2200 hrs. He had also questioned the extravagant lifestyle of the relatives of the seer. Sankararaman had stated that the Acharya had imported 100 kg of gold for making a golden chariot, of which only 35 kg were used and wondered what had happened to the remaining 65 kg of gold. The deceased had also questioned the commercial activities of the trust, floated by the mutt. Referring to key accused Kathiravan's ''retraction'' of his confessional statement recorded by a magistrate under section 164 of CRPC, the prosecution said that ten advocates had met the accused before he retracted the statement. Only on the basis legal advice, the accused had retracted the statement, the prosecution claimed adding that this clearly showed that the Acharya, while being in judicial custody was in the position to influence both the accused and witnesses. |
| Posted by: samudra_gupta Nov 29 2004, 08:12 AM |
| Bah ! The Seer has confessed.I mean , he broke down before the police during interrogation and has stated that he did conspire the murder of shankaraman.The police have the video ! Was stated in Court by Tulsi |
| Posted by: Vajramuni Nov 29 2004, 09:05 AM |
| Only way Upper castes can ensure their survival is to unite, have a state within a state create a welfare system to support each other, arm and raise a defense force to maintain their security. Being in India one can actually ignore the Govt & Govt Machinery. Just like what we did during the freedom struggle. Let the Govt do whatever for their support base. Brahmins suffered becoz knew Power corrupts, and Money is power. So far GOD has protected real humans, he will do so in future. But What I see in Indians is only way for them to advance is to pull another Indian down. We are so insecure, jealous, conceited, and seek results without working for it. In the US ask any Indian origin person, First thing they say is in the US is not trust another Indian. Of course everybody is very competitive, but any other person does not backstab unnecessarily. You may of heard of the RG system at the IITs that turn really nasty. That is why most are secret with their ambitions. A top graduate will definitely get into MIT/Stanford, but having learnt that another equally candidate may apply to say UIUC, we apply to UIUC just so that other student does not get admission. Very shallow people. JJ must have just sat on the Swami's face to make this old swami confess! |
| Posted by: vijnan_anand Nov 29 2004, 09:34 AM | ||||||||
Back again as a student eh, "Samudra Gupta", the slimy smiley man. |
| Posted by: vijnan_anand Nov 29 2004, 09:37 AM |
| Mudy's surmise proved correct. Out come the worms from the woodworks. Seer tried to molest me: Tamil writer http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=408451 |
| Posted by: Nikhil Nov 29 2004, 09:45 AM |
| From the look, she looks "regular" of GB Road! |
| Posted by: vijnan_anand Nov 29 2004, 09:45 AM | ||
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=408446
Meanwhile...
Of course, "Samudra Gupta" knows best. |
| Posted by: Pathmarajah Nov 29 2004, 01:41 PM | ||
I think VS is a IF lurker. I know him to be internet savvy. He knows the monastic and ascension rules well. He should know that the only way his guru can return to the monastery is if VS himself leaves the mutt and sits outside Vellore Prison in meditation. This he will not do. The lines are drawn.
As I said, I have absolved JS immediately. Not so VS.
JS was right and honest. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 03:33 PM | ||||
Pathmarajah,
Since when did this happen. Once again to quote from your initial post on news of JS getting arrested..
Very strange about turn, dont you think ?
|
| Posted by: vijnan_anand Nov 29 2004, 03:51 PM |
| rajesh, H^2 was correct about this pathmarajah fellow. |
| Posted by: satya Nov 29 2004, 04:17 PM |
| The "Confession": According to Tamil weekly junior vikatan, the Sankaracharya gave only yes/no questions regarding the case except on one occassion. He had recognized photographs of "Appu", whom he knew as Krishnaswamy, a visitor to the Mutt, who contractor Ravi Subramaniam had brought by to the Mutt. In custody, police kept asking HH what his relationship with "Appu" was. After they badgered him several times, HH asked something to the effect of: "What do you want me to say? Do you want me to say that I asked him to kill Sankarraman?" He also said (according to Vikatan) that when he was traveling to Dalit neighborhoods, contractor Ravi Subramaniam had insisted someone should accompany him for his protection. Ravi Subramaniam had arranged this through Krishnaswamy/("Appu"). According to the weekly, HH said that he had mentioned in Ravi Subramanian's presence that he was disturbed by the calumny being spread against the math, saying in effect, that this had to stop. |
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 29 2004, 05:19 PM |
|
Fw: Info on Jennifer Arul of NDTV - who has reported on the Kanchi
Acharya...
Understanding the "neutral" media.
Gegrapha is a fellowship of journalists from all over the world who work in the secular media and share a common faith in Jesus Christ as expressed in the historic fourth-century Nicene Creed.
And who are its members : Jennifer Arul of NDTV !!
http://www.gegrapha.org/JenniferArul1.asp
http://www.gegrapha.org/JenniferArulinLondon.asp
This same Jennifer Arul, then is able to spread comments on the Acharya and other Hindu organizations as some unbiased reporter
Look at her link with - John Dayal, the editor of the mid-day newpaper, based in Delhi. The same fellow who is always abusing India for human rights violations.
Another Gegrapha member:
Steven David, Nominations - Bangalore, India
Stephen is principal correspondent with India Today, the country's
largest news weekly. He reports on political and other contemporary
issues.
|
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 29 2004, 06:05 PM |
| http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2004/dec/01122004/jv0101.asp http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2004/dec/01122004/jv0201.asp http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2004/dec/01122004/jv0302.asp |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 29 2004, 06:16 PM | ||
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 06:42 PM |
| Request to all folks.. When posting tamil or any other links (non-english) could you please post a brief summary as to what the link says ? Ofcourse the full xlation is not required but a bried summary would really help. Regards.. |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 29 2004, 06:50 PM |
| Did anyone watch the confession telecast on Star News? Is the video and audio clear? How much of the statements is voice over? From the kanchi-sathya.org website. http://www.kanchi-sathya.org Today the prosecution has claimed that His Holiness has confessed and they have it on video tape. The fact is that this is not true. The so-called claim of confession of His Holiness, by the TN Government in the High Court, is only the statement of the senior counsel during the proceedings and is not found in the counter affidavit filed by the government in the high court today. Smt. Shushma Swaraj, former Union Minister met His Holiness this afternoon. In a statement to the press soon after the meeting, she referred to her chat with His Holiness. She was extremely disturbed to see a person of his eminence in such a stage. On her enquiry about his alleged confession, His Holiness categorically denied having made any confession. He also told her that all this was fabricated. Several Indian TV channels have telecast Ms Swaraj’s statement tonight. ”It is a total lie and completely baseless” she said. She appealed to the media to be responsible about such reporting. Please convey this emphatically to any one who enquires. In addition, the police has resorted to slander with a view to mislead issues. Please remember that we are fighting an extra-ordinary war and our biggest asset, are our faith and conviction. Every attempt is being made, to erode this. We must steel ourselves against such vicious rumours and canards. Do not expect a fair battle and do not be surprised if we have to face even more unpalatable stuff. Even the prosecution knows fully well that what they claim to have on tape is of no evidentiary value in the court of law. On the other hand, it is hard-sell copy for the media and a weapon to destroy His Holiness’s reputation and bring down the stature of the Mutt in the eyes of millions of its supporters and devotees. Remember that two people who were part of the ‘clinching evidence’ of the prosecution retracted their statements. They clearly declared that it was under extreme physical torture and abuse that they had implicated His Holiness in the case. Given this background, it is quite conceivable that He was subjected mental torture and psychological pressure, and they must have twisted what he said out of context. ”It is tantamount to evidence but not admissible in court” is the way it is described! Since they don’t seem to have any more meat in their ‘clinching evidence’ ,the attempt is to convict him in the media through such sensational accusations rather than fight for justice in the court of law. So don’t lose heart. Don’t let such propaganda get the better of us. |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 29 2004, 07:04 PM |
| TN Police and Courts are very honest and professional, one of the best in country. They have all proofs in hand. Reliable magazines are providing all proofs ASAP in print and remaining are in process. Let see what other links are missing. We should expect lawyers will file molestation charges. We should expect mutt is hiding women. Illegitimate daughter from nowhere will be produced. Mutt involvement in illegal activities e.g. Sankara trust in eye operation racket, illegal immigration, terrorism and weapons. Gosh! they can find links with al-queda or Black September in December. This is getting interesting. |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 07:07 PM | ||
http://dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story2%2Etxt&counter_img=2
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 07:08 PM |
| Wow ! Was the video released to Star News ? Is it up for download somewhere ? |
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 29 2004, 07:10 PM | ||
How can he say when he himself is not aware of the details of the confession, that it is tantamounts to an admission.
|
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 07:23 PM | ||
http://dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story1%2Etxt&counter_img=1
|
| Posted by: Mudy Nov 29 2004, 07:49 PM | ||
Nikhil,
Please don't insult "GB Road". |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 08:24 PM | ||
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=EDITS&file_name=edit3%2Etxt&counter_img=3
by Sandhya Jain..
|
| Posted by: k.ram Nov 29 2004, 08:24 PM |
Now a Sri vaishnava swami is arrested in chennai 
http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13614305
More about him
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/24/stories/2004092402740600.htm
Sri Vaishnava Channel Brochure released:
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/10/stories/2004091001950400.htm |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 08:36 PM |
| Remember that other arrest in AP not so long ago ? This is how AP govt is handling it.. http://www.hindu.com/2004/11/29/stories/2004112915350500.htm |
| Posted by: rajesh_g Nov 29 2004, 08:42 PM | ||
Who is Anuradha Ramanan ? What kind of stuff does she write ? |
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 29 2004, 09:18 PM |
| Rajesh bhai, Sorry about not posting the gist. Had to cook as it was my turn among the DOOs sharing the house Much of what is there in the Vikatan has already been posted. Anyway, FWIW Ravi Subramaniam introduced Appu to JS for his protection when he faced threats from one Thirumavalavan, a Dalit leader in TN. Appu has connections with Arcot Veeraswamy (a DMK minister and also Stalin, son of MK). All the more reason for MK's U-Turn. Appu has been linked to a gruesome murder (or suicide) of an engineer called Ramesh on Stalin's behest. Look Amma is turning her guns of Stalin. The police is planning to link JS to another attempted murder called Thirukottiyur madhavan., who was attacked by Appu after Sankar Raman's murder and there are rumours about Remanding JS to further custody on Goonda's act, which was promptly denied by the police. MK made a U turn after Arun Jaitley spoke to him and appraised him of things coming his way! |
| Posted by: sridhar k Nov 29 2004, 09:24 PM |
| Anuradha Raman used to write not so bad Tamil Novels. But this is a shocking allegation. Her complaint has been going on in the tamil press (her name was not mentioned but it was stated as a known tamil novelist) and now it has come to the English Press. Looks like English press is taking stories from the tamil press, which usually they do not do. On a different note, Cho has condemned the way in which the PPs are handling the bail petition and he says that the court arguements are unprecedented. According to him never in a bail application (in TN) , the prosecution has opposed a bail so vehemently. |
| Posted by: LSrini Nov 29 2004, 10:01 PM |
| One question!!!! where is Ram Jethmalani? He seems to be missing in the news since 20th Nov. Has he given up on JS? |
| Posted by: chandramoulee Nov 29 2004, 10:35 PM |
| Jethmalani said the other day that those who are agitating on behalf of the Acharya are not really helping him. I think he washed his hands off with this cryptic remark. He had also professionally appeared for lots of other people--including JJ, I think. |
| Posted by: chandramoulee Nov 29 2004, 10:54 PM |
| Anuradha Ramanan incurred the wrath of the Tamil Brahmin community some years back by one of her short stories. It was about a brahmin wife getting raped by a local goonda (christian?) and being disowned by her own brahmin husband who just rues his cowardice(!) and goes away. The lady removes her 'thali' (sacred thirumangalyam tied by the groom at the time of wedding) when the rapist dies therby acknowledging that she considered the goonda as her 'real' husband ! The brahmin community was incensed and if my memory serves me right, threatening letters were also written to her and the Magazine that printed her story. I think she runs a regular column advising women in 'distress' these days |
| Posted by: Pathmarajah Nov 29 2004, 11:42 PM |
| aah Rajesh,
Yes they are exposed, but absolved as its their karma. No change in positions at all. Also keep in mind what I said in the beginning, that 'during the trial where the gory details and private liaisons' are exposed.
Now why do you think I used the words 'private liaisons'?
Happy days are here because truth is being established, that everyone has the same guna for monastiicsm and murder, and love is established when one is absolved right away, pinning all on god. |
