India Forum Archives
Thursday, July 22, 2004
  TSP news and discussion
Posted by: Mudy Apr 7 2004, 11:03 AM
Old thread is in Trash can
The following links are background information on Pakistan: The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan MUSHARRAF'S US VISIT: FACTS TO KNOW The Terrorist swamp that is Pakistan - Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha which is a link to this great article: On the Frontier of Apocalypse by Christopher Hitchens (Nuclear Enabler - Pakistan today is the most dangerous place on Earth by Jim Hoagland) "Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency" - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk (This link is to a book called Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. It is a collection of essays by Paks about Pak society and remains one of the finest critiques about Pakistan available on the net. ) Seymour Hersh Interview This is a list of Pakistani businesses that may be aiding and funding terror against India and other countries. Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan Most wanted list requested by India/List of terrorist sheltered by Pakistan Dictionary meaning of 'paki']The Enigma of Military Rule in Pakistan By Dr. Ahmad Faruqui
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 7 2004, 11:56 AM
N^3 : Mumtaz Bhutto has agreed to your version of Giving Peace A Chance – Smash Lotastaan : clap.gif WASHINGTON: Mumtaz Ali Bhutto, the chairman of the Sindh National Front, has said the separation of Sindh, Balochistan and the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) from Pakistan will be “appropriate”, keeping in mind the example of East Pakistan which became Bangladesh. In an article in Sindh Watch, a journal published by the World Sindhi Institute, a Sindhi separatist group active in Washington, the former Pakistan People’s Party leader writes that the three provinces “opted to join” Pakistan with the promise made in the 1940 Pakistan Resolution that each would have “autonomy and sovereignty.” He maintains that all three provinces were “separate nations” before the arrival of the British. They each have functionally what is required to make them separate nations, he adds. He makes no mention of the fact that the 1940 Resolution was subsequently amended at a meeting in Delhi presided over by the Quaid-e-Azam. Mr Bhutto writes, “Corruption, treachery, betrayal and lies now constitute the backbone of Pakistan’s political system – and it is now, when life has become impossible and truly threatened, that we are forced to consciously acknowledge this painful reality.” He castigates the “hegemony to Punjab”, backed by the “military-bureaucratic axis”. He believes that democracy cannot function in a multi-cultural and multi-linguistic state like Pakistan. He also denounced the plan to build the Greater Thal Canal and the Kalabagh Dam, arguing that all three minority provinces were opposed to these two schemes, which would only benefit Punjab. Mr Bhutto warns that if the federal government uses force against the minority provinces, it will not work. He also criticises the US for its support of Pakistan’s military governments. He says President Pervez Musharraf “must yield to the Sindhi, Baloch and Pushtoon people. He must show wisdom and foresight in this and suppress those who are egging him on over the precipice for their selfish ends. The Kalabagh Dam and the Greater Thal Canal must be abandoned. The bulk of power should rest in the provinces and a new Constitution must be written”. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Rangudu Apr 7 2004, 05:57 PM
All, I'm working on writing articles on many different themes, one of which explores the possibility (or lack of it) of India ever making peace with TSP. To me the it always boils down to what we can call Nazria-e-Pakistan or the ideology of Pakistan. I'd like to draw upon the good forumites to discuss this topic. 1. What is the ideology of Pakistan? 2. What drives the Paki elite? 3. What is their ultimate goal? Understanding your enemy is key to defeating him. Thanks for contributing.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Apr 7 2004, 06:14 PM
The ideology of Pakistan is to reconquer India and re-islamise it The islamist leadership in India has the goal of re-islamising India Hence they share parallel goals and co-operate to some extant
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Apr 7 2004, 06:59 PM
simple answer: Islam Remove Islam and TSP can become a state of India. Since that is unlikely to happen anytime soon, we can forget about peace with TSP.
Posted by: Mudy Apr 7 2004, 08:09 PM
After independence Elite (Educated or rich) of Pakistan suddenly got land. British favored them with got top position in Pakistan. Islamist became their tool since beginning. To control rest of junta and demand of Islamist they started converting Pakistan into an Islamic state. Western influenced elite did some symbolic changes toward an Islamic state till 1971. Main objective was authoritarian rule and keeping mullahs happy. Actual islamisation started during Zia and again objective was authoritarian rule and control new jihadis, dream of Mughal Empire and revenge of 1971. Elite or main 44 families of Pakistan’s simple objective are to make money and have fun. For them Islam is just a tag, can be twitch as per worldly requirement. Islamist and elite still think India as land once they ruled and want to occupy it. Which can only happen through Islam. Peace with Pakistan, is a big joke. It will never happen till existence of Islam in Pakistan.
Posted by: Kaushal Apr 8 2004, 01:20 AM
The goal of TSP vis a vis India is not a conventional one of conquering land by war, although if all else fails they will not hesitate to use their weapons. They would vastly prefer to inherit an India which is physically intact rather than one devastated by war. It is their goal to establish Mughalistan in India as a Islamic Khilafat. They would much prefer to take over India by stealth (demographics, pr, Uncle sam,china) rather than fight a war they can never win. They will continue to eat away at India using propaganda and other unconventional weapons. Secularism is regarded as an apostasy in the Islamic Ummah and they will not rest until a multi ethnic and multireligious republic like India is shown to be a demonstrable failure. Indians must understand these objectives of the terrorist state and take this threat seriously. My suspicion is that paradoxically the US would prefer a Islamic state in the subcontinent . The fundamental reason is that it is difficult to manipulate a democratic India as easily as some of the other peoples in the world. India remains a unique civilization despite blandishments from the west ( and the Islamic Ummah) to abandon her heritage. I am confident India will overcome this threat. There is the perennial problem of lack of unity in india, but i see a glimmer of hope that Indians will eventually unite when faced with a more dire threat to their unique amd timeless Indic civilization.
Posted by: shiv Apr 8 2004, 04:18 AM
Rangudu - if you read Nayyar's "Curricula in Pakistan. The subtle subversion" about Paki textx - he deals with the "Ideology of Pakistan" which apparently was never precisely defined - cetainly not mentioned by Jinnah. The topic came up later and more and more people started referring to it. it now includes islamization and the islamic identity of Pakistan. Nayyar's pdf deals with the ideology of Pakistan is some detail. I had revised the download link for the file in the Paki thread of BRF - but someoen said it doesn't work. In any case I have a backup of that work. Incidentally - I have some thoughts on your questions - but I have written a 47000 word book) which I am trying to get published (paper edition) Do you want to have a look - in any case it has been seen by many - including Acharya.
Posted by: Viren Apr 8 2004, 07:06 AM
Hi Rangudu, Short version:
1. What is the ideology of Pakistan?
Pakistan is driven more by hate & paranoia than any ideology.
2. What drives the Paki elite?
Same thing that drives an elite anywhere else. Some countries use fancy-shmancy angrezi words like media/commissions/executive previliges etc to have their way while others use rants by some 7th century Arabs.
3. What is their ultimate goal?
Survive - TODAY Kya pata, kal Pakistan ho na ho (copyright V V Kiran)
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 9 2004, 04:13 PM pakee.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 9 2004, 04:15 PM Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 10 2004, 08:39 AM pakee.gif As part of BBC News Online's series on migration, our readers have been telling us their experiences as migrants. Pakistani-born Akmal Mehmood told the BBC's Urdu service about his "obsession" with the West and how he tried to accomplish his dreams by paying for smugglers, expensive visas and a "paper marriage". My journey from Gujrat, Pakistan, to Barcelona was not an easy one. It's a tale of getting shoved and pushed around the world for 10 years. There were times I came very close to death. I left Gujrat to go to Germany in August 1992, when I had completed my university degree. Two of my brothers were living in Germany and tried their best to persuade me to stay in Pakistan. But I was obsessed with becoming a "citizen of Europe". My plan was to go via Bulgaria. So I arrived in Sofia on a six-month visa, which I overstayed. as living with a Pakistani man I had met in Bulgaria. One day another Pakistani turned up. While I was out working, he disappeared with my passport and bag. I had no passport and didn't know what to do - there was no Pakistani embassy in Bulgaria. Death threat I heard about an Indian agent who smuggled people into Austria for $2,000. Somehow I got the money and boarded a bus to Austria. Along with seven others, I was hidden in a space at the back, behind the toilet. We were told we would have to stay there for 24 hours without water or food. What we were not told was that the same bus had twice before been searched on the Bulgarian border. Hardly an hour had passed when the bus was stopped and we were discovered. The bus had been surrounded by Serb forces. The war in Balkans was raging and Bosnia was under siege. Borders were closed and nobody in their right mind would have taken the risk of crossing the Yugoslav frontier. The agent had warned us not to carry any papers that would betray our identity. But two people in my group were carrying Pakistani passports, and the Serb troops decided that we were Islamic militants. They gave orders for us to be taken to the nearby forest and shot dead. Hard-skinned This was November 1992. Everything was covered with snow and it was very cold. They kept us in the forest all night and tortured us. At one point I had no doubt that it was my last night and I would be dead by morning. But early in the morning, one of the Serb officers who spoke English turned up. We pleaded with him and told him we had no clue why we were being tortured. Finally, we were taken to a lock-up where we were detained for three days. We then appeared in a court, where the judge ordered that we be sent back to Bulgaria and the bus drivers to prison. A Bulgarian court fined us and ordered us to leave the country within two weeks. We tried to look for the Indian agent who had taken $2,000 from us but he had disappeared. During this period I met a lot of people in my situation. Almost every night, one or two of us tried to slip through the border towards Greece, but most were caught, kept in detention for a while and released. I don't know why, but we never gave up. I guess, you become hard-skinned. After about six months, and having earned some money, I flew to Moscow. I went straight to the Pakistani embassy and got a letter from them stating my situation and why I didn't have a passport. ”Paper marriage” Back in Gujrat, life seemed strange. I tried to get a job but couldn't. I felt ashamed of myself all the time. My family gave me some money which I used to pay an agent who got me a six-month visitor visa for Canada. In Canada, I applied for political asylum on the basis of being a Kashmiri. But it was done in haste and I did not know the system well.A Lotastaani from Gujrat-Lotastaani Punjab – claiming to be a Kashmiri Six months later, and before my application could be rejected, I slipped into United States with the help of a Canadian girl. I stayed in New Jersey for five years. Here too, I applied for political asylum on the basis of being a member of the opposition Pakistan People's Party but my claim was rejected within a year. It was difficult to find work and I badly wanted to legalise my situation. So I contacted a girl for a "paper marriage". She demanded $10,000 in advance. We got married and I applied for legal status. This meant I had to undergo medical tests and appear in court with my "wife". But, we were living separately and, in July 1998, on the appointed day, I arrived in court but the girl didn't turn up. The court gave us another two weeks time before a final decision was made. I managed to trace her, but before the fortnight was up, she had left her job and disappeared. My application was rejected. One day, I returned from work to find a police car waiting for me. I was arrested and held in a New Jersey jail for a week before being deported to Pakistan. Obsession When I landed at Karachi airport, I only had a passport, some clothes and a gold locket. All the money I had earned was gone. Back in Pakistan I was extremely depressed and in despair. Precious years had been wasted struggling from one place to other. I still don't know why I was so obsessed with the West - but in August 1999, I started all over again. This time I arranged for a tourist visa - issued in Bangkok - to go to Cyprus. In Nicosia I obtained a French visa. I stayed in Cyprus for two weeks and then travelled to France, where I lived with a friend. Looking back In 2001, a huge number of illegal immigrants went on hunger strike in Spain demanding legal status. Among them were many Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians who had taken refuge in churches. Finally, the Spanish government said migrants residing and working illegally in Spain for many years would be given legal status. On hearing the news, my friend suggested we go to Spain. He said it would take months, or even years, for the authorities there to interview us. By that time, he said, we would have learnt enough Spanish to communicate and we would be able to pretend we had been in the country for a long time. I still find it strange. I did everything I could and I never got the right to be a citizen of the West. And then I didn't do anything and it happened. Now I own a cybercafe in Barcelona. I am a Spanish citizen and in many ways my journey has ended. But I still look back and wonder that how could I have gone through all that. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 10 2004, 01:58 PM pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Apr 10 2004, 07:19 PM
General Musharraf’s promised Dec 31 date to
I think promised date was Oct 31 not Dec 31.
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 11 2004, 03:38 PM Cheers
Posted by: Viren Apr 11 2004, 08:44 PM
Posted by: Viren Apr 12 2004, 08:01 AM
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 12 2004, 08:54 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Apr 12 2004, 08:31 PM)
Viren : The USA will not take umbrage at Riff Raff imprisoning Hashmi as having a Democratic form of Government is contrary to the Interests of the USA. You will remember when Riff Raff got a phone call from Amerika Bahadur he immediately said “YES SIR”. Had their been a Democratic Political Government in place in Lotastaan then the Lotastaani Prime Minister would not have been able to say “YES SIR” immediately to Amerika Bahadur’s Orders. You will find that the USA will ensure a Military Dictator holds the reins of Lotastaan for many a year to come. Cheers
Posted by: Viren Apr 12 2004, 09:09 AM
Peregrine: The irony is that as we are pushing for democracy in Iraq, we seem to be rewarding a despot for doing just the opposite in another part of the world. I doubt if IIT prof and scholars who are doing the rounds in US on 'Dangers of Indian democracy' will point to such doublespeak.
Posted by: Mudy Apr 12 2004, 09:19 AM
Pakistan faces lawsuit Wheat saga continues.... By Blair Speedy April 12, 2004 THE trading company whose shipments of Australian wheat were rejected by Pakistan for supposed fungal contamination is threatening to sue the country for up to $US30 million ($39 million) amid allegations of profiteering by corrupt Pakistani government officials. A shortage in last year's wheat harvest led the state-owned Pakistan Agricultural Storage & Supplies Corporation (Passco) last December to tender for imports for the first time in six years. Karachi-based importer Tradesmen International won the contract and purchased the wheat for $35 million from Australian monopoly wheat exporter AWB. However, when the grain arrived on four ships in January and February, Pakistani quarantine officials refused to allow it to be unloaded, claiming it was infested with karnal bunt, a fungus that gives wheat a fishy taste, making it unfit for human consumption. The disease has not before been found in Australian wheat and tests by Australian and independent Pakistani laboratories later declared the grain to be disease-free. Tradesmen chief executive Haroon Suleman said the real reason for the rejection was that corrupt officials were profiting from a rise in local wheat prices, after news of a shortage became public. The price of wheat flour in Karachi markets was up 50 per cent in March compared with a year earlier, according to Pakistani news reports. "There were certain people in Pakistan who were conniving with the stockists and the holders of (Pakistani) wheat because there was a shortage and the wheat was sold in the markets at the highest ever prices in the history of Pakistan," Mr Suleman said. "We have charged them with negligence, nepotism and corruption in certain quarters of the Government." He is threatening legal action, seeking the return of a $US1 million "performance bond" Tradesmen was obliged to lodge with the Government upon winning the contract. The Government has declared the deposit forfeit on the grounds the wheat was not delivered. Mr Suleman is also seeking up to $US30 million in compensation and costs, which included charges of more than $100,000 a day from the ships stranded for more than a month. The wheat was on-sold to customers last month in Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the United Arab Emirates. Mr Suleman said the acceptance of the wheat for human consumption in other countries showed there was no problem with its quality. And the Pakistani Government's subsequent decision not to seek replacement shipments for the rejected cargoes also showed there were other motives behind the claims of contamination, he said. A spokesman for AWB, the former Australian Wheat Board, said the company remained confident in the cleanliness of its grain and uncertain about the reasons behind its rejection. Mr Suleman has given the Pakistani Government until Thursday to respond to his claims. But Pakistan has refused requests from the Australian Government to have the wheat tested in an independent country, and did not respond to entreaties to reconsider. Results of independent tests commissioned by the Australian Government in the UK and US are expected to be released this week.,00.html
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 12 2004, 12:32 PM
Mudy : The Australian Wheat being rejected by Lotastaanis is a clear Signal to all Traders of the hazards involved in doing business with Lotastaanis. I think that now the Indian Government, Various Chambers of Commerce and the DDM must inform the Indian Commerce, Industry, and Trading Community to keep their hands off from Loatataan and Lotastaani Traders. In practice the AWB could have very well left the Ships off Karachi-Port Qasim and sued Tradesman Internation for Damages and would have won in an Arbitration case. However, the Lotastaani game is different to the norms of International Business. Tradesman International is a small time outfit, not even in the Lotastaani 300 Companies List, which knows how to grease the wheels of the Lotastaani Government Business : TRADESMEN INTERNATIONAL (PRIVATE) LIMITED Registered Office Address: 812/ 813, 8TH FLOOR PROGRESSIVE PLAZA, PLOT NO-5, AUTHORISED CAPITAL: 10000000 PAID UP CAPITAL: 7000000 CEO NAME: MR.HAROON SULEMAN CEO ADDRESS: 30-B, KHAYABAN-E-TANZEEM. INCORPORATE DATE: 7/9/1992 AUTHORISED CAPITAL SHARES: 1000000 PAID UP CAPITAL SHARES: 700000 AUTHORISED PER VALUE: 10 PAID UP PER VALUE: 10 Thus AWB are not going to get any joy by suing Tradesman International, a company with a paid up Capital of Pak. Rs 7,000,000 i.e. less than USD 125,000 and the Lotastaani Government considered it fit to perform a Contract worth USD 25 Million. pakee.gif Now that AWB has mitigated its losses by selling the Wheat Cargoes onwards they will sue Tradesman who I suppose will sue the Lotastaani Government. The AWB may also sue the Lotastaani Government jointly with Tradesman. So folks it is time for Fun and Games. I will be watching this with interest. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 13 2004, 02:31 AM ISLAMAWORST, April 12: The country's defence budget is expected to increase 'substantially' in the fiscal year 2004-05 to meet pressing requirements, particularly of the air force and the navy, Dawn has learnt. The allocation for defence will increase after about a decade during which it has been decreasing or has remained frozen. Indian defence allocation had increased by at least 100 per cent during the period, sources said. The sources said the relevant quarters were working on budget estimates and shopping lists of the navy and the PAF but the allocation would increase both in terms of size and percentage of the Gross Domestic Product. Budget estimates for 2002-03 had projected defence spending at Rs146 billion or 3.6 per cent of the GDP, that was revised to Rs160.1 billion or four per cent of the GDP. The allocation for the current year is Rs160.3 billion or 3.6 per cent of the GDP. The current year's public sector development programme is also of Rs160 billion. The navy's capability is expected to be enhanced by the induction of submarines, frigates, marine surveillance aircraft and helicopters. The sources said the government was likely to spend $12-15 billion for the refurbishment and modernization of the air force over the next five years because of growing realization among the defence authorities that ground military strength could be neutralized without an effective air defence. When contacted, Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz did not deny the proposed increase in the budget but said the defence committee of the cabinet in its meeting on Monday did not discuss the issue. The country is also entitled to use for defence purposes during the year about half of the $3 billion package from the United States. The air force was going to get major focus in the coming years, said the sources. They argued that Indian offensive capabilities, particularly the series of its long and medium range surface-to-surface missiles and a large fleet of combat aircraft, could create a serious threat to Pakistan's security. They said that while the Indian air force had become the fourth largest in the world with the induction of Su-30 MKIs and Jaguars, the PAF had suffered owing to non-procurement of aircraft and other weapons since the late 1980s in the wake of the imposition of the Pressler Amendment by the US. The Indian air force consists of nearly 1,000 aircraft, including 770 front-line and 140 second-line fighters and combat-capable trainers. The PAF has 32 F-16 aircraft and a combat strength of a little over 400 fighter aircraft. The Lotastaani Defence Budget does not include the Wages and other allied expenses of 650,000 Armed Forces Officers & Men-Women. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 13 2004, 03:53 PM Cheers
Posted by: Reggie Apr 13 2004, 08:11 PM
Looting, plundering and hoarding from Hindus were and still continue to be the hallmark of Pakistanis. A walk down the memory lane. Ba$tard General Ayub Khan. Musa saved his arse, so in turn, later, he becomes the CinC. All in all, filthy bastards! Brig Noor's words were: "Ayub was accused of accepting cash and jewellery from fleeing Hindus during the days he was in the Boundary Force that lasted for five months in the later half of 1947. The charges were serious enough to warrant a court of enquiry against Ayub." (Interview with Brig Noor Ahmed Hussein).
Posted by: arindam Apr 14 2004, 12:49 AM
It seems, that our Bollywood buddy, Sonu Nigam scampered home yesterday - it seems some pernicious Pakistanis had bust a bomb, somewhere in the vicinity of his bus. Yellowed pants n'all he was quickly back home in India. Of course, the regular butchery of little kids in Kashmir, or the rising tally of dead Indians every week, never caused any hesitation on the part of his part - never gave it a moment of thought, as he rushed headlong into this on-going Bollywood orgy of kissing Pakistani flags, defending terrorists or thrusting bouquets into the hands of grabby Pakistani army-men. As you can guess from the tenor of my thoughts - I wrote up a rather scathing, somewhat long and perhaps a tad satirical piece on our Bollywood heroes/heroines. Feel free to read, comment and pass on to your friends.
Posted by: Bhootnath Apr 14 2004, 01:37 AM
Arindam ji You shld be getting getting bored of yourself .. I mean coming out with thought provoking articles one after another ... too much of consistency smile.gif) ( just joing Guru .. if I cldnt be clear abt it ) Excellent needless to says so .. But the point is the "class" or "segment" who has access to this kind of writeups is basically "bhenc...d apnae baap kaa kya jaata hai " that is " what my father goes" ....I hope I am wrong abt my conclusion but this is my read abt the ppl of that segement, I used to lead 4 floors aby Nigam .. few years ago ... and I can safely say 90% of that community "film/arts" are mofos.. look how they are quite abt "Bharat Bhai" and all ... These ppl will do anything for money prostitution to ... So when I read you thoughts & and of some more people I feel good .. but ... Best Wishes & Regards +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Signature : Indian madarsas donot produce Jeehadis & terrorists , they teach C++ there : [Edited] - Bangalore - India +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Posted by: Mudy Apr 14 2004, 09:24 AM
arindam, Good article, I am not sure illiterate idiots of Bollywood will ever read this article. Azmi, Dilip Kumar, Akhtar names are missing from this list. Shabana, memeber of CPI-M actively collected money for Bosina Muslims but for Indians other than shouting anti government slogan and appearances in all anti-India/Hindu US University campus debates. Only sane Muslim actor I can see is Amir Khan may be his connection to Azad.
Posted by: arindam Apr 14 2004, 04:40 PM
Mudy, I never had any hope of reaching the Bollywood types - but, I do have the hope of reaching people like you and me, and thru us, our friends, who may not be as well informed. The intent was to create a readable shell around the basic facts and allow it to be disseminated thru publication or unsolicited emails, as widely as possible. In the end the the squeaky wheel does get greased - if 10% of the people who end up reading it send out an email, when Urmilla gets written up about by HT or TOI, next - it will make a difference - not in a day, but slowly. The only way to get there is to let more people know about the facts, again and again. Thats what I'm hoping to be able to do.
Posted by: acharya Apr 14 2004, 05:40 PM
There is a website for Nazariya foundation - Find out wher we can find out. A national, non-parochial organization devoted to the projection of aims and objectives of Pakistan Movement and the establishment in Pakistan of a social order based on Islam as enunciated by Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Quaid-i-Azam. Chaudhary Rahmat Ali [1897-1951] Chaudhary Rahmat Ali was the son of a devout father, Haji Chaudhary Shah Muhammad of Mohar. He finished his education in England, obtaining M.A. LL.B., with honours from the University of Cambridge and Dublin respectively. In 1933, Chaudhary Rahmat Ali originated the word Pakistan. So far as scheme of the division of India is concerned he claims to have proposed it as early as 1915 in his inaugural address to Bazam-i-Shibli, in these words:- "North of India is Muslim and we will keep it Muslim. Not only that, we will make it a Muslim State. But this we can do only if and when we and our North cease to be Indian. For that is a pre-requisite to it. So the sooner we shed 'Indianism', the better for us all and for Islam". From 1915 to 1930, nothing further is known about Rahmat Ali's views and activities. In 1930, a series of Round Table Conference was held in London do devise a new Constitution for India and to these Conferences, delegates of all communities and parties of whom about 26 were Muslims were invited to participate on this occasion, he approached the Muslim delegates, and discussed with them the political and constitutional situation from Muslim point of view. The historic declaration titled: 'Now or Never' was issued from Cambridge on 28th January, 1933. Besides Chaudhary Rahmat Ali, the other cosignatories were Mohammad Aslam Khan Khattak, President Khyber Union, Sahibzada Sheikh Muhammad Sadiq and Inayatuallah Khan of Charsadda, Secretary, Khyber Union. The Declaration urged:- "India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; not the home of one single nation. It is in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, form the dawn of history till the advent of British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own. One of such peoples is our own nation. In the five Northern Provinces of India, out of a total population of about forty million, we, the Muslims, constitute about thirty million, our social code and economic system, our laws of inheritance, succession and marriage are fundamentally different from those of most peoples living the rest of India. The ideals which move our people to make the highest sacrifice are essentially different from those which inspire the Hindus to do the same. These differences are not confined to broad, basic principles. Far from it. They extend to the minutest details of our lives. We do not inter-dine; we do not intermarry. Our national customs and calendars, even our diet and dress are different." In the name of the Muslim brethren who live in 'Pakistan' a demand was made for a separate Federation of the five predominantly Muslim units - Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghania Province), Kashmir, Sind and Baluchistan. The declaration ended on this note: "...The issue is now or never. Either we live or perish for ever. The future is ours only if we live up to our faith. It does not lie in the lap of the gods, but it rests in our own hands. We can make or mar it. The history of the last century is full of open warnings, and they are as plain as were ever given to any nation. Shall it be said of us that we ignored all those warnings and allowed our ancient heritage to perish in our own hands." Rahmat Ali launched the Pakistan National Movement by issuing and distribute pamphlets, tracts, hand-bills and other literature. A weekly newspaper under the title 'Pakistan' was also started. As a result of the campaign carried on for the propaganda of the Pakistan Scheme, notice thereof was taken by the Joint Parliamentary Select Committee and questions were put about Pakistan on 1st August, 1933, to the Muslim deputation consisting of Mr. A. Yusuf Ali, Sir Muhammad Yakub, Mr. H.S. Suhrawardy, Dr. Khalifa Shuja-ud-Din and Khan Sahib Haji Rashid Ahmad. In July 1935, Chaudhary Rahmat Ali circulated another four page leaflet from another Cambridge address. In it he claimed to be the founder of Pakistan National Movement and as its President he signed the document. A new point was made of the new Government of Burma Act. "While Burma is being separated from Hindustan, it remains a mystery to us why Pakistan is to be forced in the Indian Federation." In 1937, Rahmat Ali declared that there should be Bang-i-Islam'stan for the combined territories of Bengal and Assam. On March 8, 1940 Rahmat Ali addressed a meeting of the Supreme Council of the Pakistan National Movement at Karachi on the 'Millat of Islam' and the 'Menace of Indianism'. He initiated the second part of his plan pertaining to Bang-i-Islam (abbreviation of Bang-i-Islam'stan) and Osmanistan (Hyderabad Deccan). Rahmat Ali was not satisfied with his scheme for the establishment of Pakistan, Bangistan and Osmanistan. He inaugurated in October, 1942, what he calls Parts III, IV, VI and VII of the Pakistan plan. The Seven Commandments of Destiny for the seventh Continent of the Dinia are contained in the pamphlet under the caption of "The Millat and the Mission". On March 15, 1943 Chaudhary Rahmat Ali issued the statement called "The Millat and her Minorities" wherein he dealt with the creation of 'Haideristan". In 1944, he pursued his scheme of the Commonwealth of Nations through a circular captioned the "Millat and her ten Nations". In 1945, he announced the 'Dinia Continent Movement'. In 1946, he proposed 'Siddiquistan' for the Central Dinia. At the same time, he published a booklet entitled "Safistan" with regard to the status of the Muslims in the Western Ceylon and the Ameen Islands. The word 'Safi' was adopted as in Arabic it meant 'the chosen'. Simultaneously another pamphlet was issued by him called "Nasaristan" dealing with eastern Ceylon. After the Muslim League accepted the British plan of the 3rd June, 1947, he issued a statement on 9th June 1947, revised version whereof was published under the title: "The Greatest Betryal". He pleaded therein for the rejection of the British plan and to redeem the Millat by accepting his 'Pak Plan'. On 15th August, 1948 he addressed from Lahore a Memorandum to the Secretary-General, United Nations, regarding the Muslim minority in India and the saving duty of the U.N.O. He referred to "the horrible crimes" explained that were being committed against the Muslim by the Hindus, explained the causes of their helpless position under "Hindu hegemony" and demanded the immediate dispatch by the U.N.O. of a Commission of Inquiry to India. Source: Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, Evolution of Pakistan, Lahore, 1963, pp. 131-146; Also cited in Biographical Dictionary of South Asia by Syed Razi Wasti, Lahore, 1980, pp-105-107.
Posted by: Mudy Apr 14 2004, 06:22 PM
It is a good effort, everyone should do something. Your articles are effective and good. I hope brainwashed Indian read them and change their thinking.
Posted by: acharya Apr 14 2004, 06:27 PM
FOREWORD Nazaria-i-Pakistan Foundation is a national, intellectual institution which, since early 1999, is engaged in highlighting the ideology of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as enunciated in the words and deed of Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. The scope of the Foundation's Objectives is wide and varied, requiring long and sustained efforts. Since its inception the Foundation has undertaken a series of steps for popularizing Pakistan's Ideology through speeches, addresses, seminars, discussions, debating contests among college and school students, essay writing and book exhibitions on related themes. The Foundation also brings out a monthly magazine Nazaria-i-Pakistan besides research publications on the Pakistan Movement. It was a unique honour for the Foundation to get its suggestion to observe the year 2001, the 125th year of Quaid's and year 2002 the 125th year of Allama Muhammad Iqbal's birthday and 2003 as Madar-e-Millat year accepted by the Government of Pakistan as the year of the Quaid, year of Allama Muhammad Iqbal and year of Madar-e-Millat Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah. The Ideology of Pakistan The Nazaria-i-Pakistan is in fact another name for our Islamic spirit and character. Life in our brother Islamic countries, in general, is in consonance with Islamic values and may not require this aspect to be stressed. In South Asia, however, the situation is different because of the Hindu population which poses a perpetual challenge to our ideology and way of life. This Hindu confrontation springs from their polytheistic and caste-ridden religious and emotional makeup against Islam's monotheism and casteless creed. This ideological chasm between the Hindu and the Muslim ways of life resulted in the parting of ways in almost all spheres of life, customs and culture, names and nomenclature, history and tradition, language and literature, art and architecture, laws and moral codes, beliefs and sense of values. There are sharp differences even in what they eat. These very disparities combined form the basis of the Two Nation Theory. This was not a matter of mere hair-splitting but an everyday fact of life, which one cannot fail to feel in almost every sphere of human activity. This then is the crux and substance of the Two Nation Theory, which formed the basis of British India's partition in two independent Hindu and Muslim States. The Hindu majority areas of India formed India and the Muslim majority regions came together under the unique name of Pakistan. On this very principle the Muslim majority state of Jammu and Kashmir was to be part of Pakistan. But the Hindus, deceitfully, landed their troops in Kashmir and established their hegemony in half of the state. It is this Hindu treachery which the freedom fighters of Kashmir are now striving to undo. On the same premises Quaid-i-Azam dismissed the wishes of the Hindus and the British colonialists for a joint Hindu Muslim nationhood as a pipe dream. With single-minded devotion be fought against this menace and succeeded in getting the idea of a separate Muslim identity recognized. In the 28th annual session of the Muslim League in 1941 in Madras, Quaid-i-Azam formally declared this objective as the ideology of the Muslim League. It is this very ideology which is known today as 'Nazaria-i-Pakistan'. Background A very important factor that the Hindus held an overwhelming majority in overall population over the Muslims in the Sub-continent, has to be kept in mind. Had the Indian Sub-continent remained a single country after the end of the British rule, its government would have always been in the hands of the Hindus. In that eventuality the Muslims would have been relegated permanently to a state of subordination and subjugation. The Muslims were not prepared to accept that situation. Fortunately, the Muslims enjoyed a majority population status in the North-Western and the Eastern regions of the Sub-continent. Thus emerged the concept of a separate Muslim State combining these Muslim majority areas. On 23 March 1940, at the historic session of the Muslim League in Lahore, this concept was turned into a clear, definite demand for partitioning of the Sub-continent and establishment of a Muslim state. In little over seven years, through a great mass struggle, known as the Pakistan Movement, led by the Quaid-i-Azam, Pakistan appeared on the map of the world on 14 August 1947. Ideological states, for the very reason that they have an ideology to live by, are prone to challenges from hostile adversaries, who have their own missions to accomplish. At times these forces seem to be gaining ground but the truth always bounces back with more vigor to restore the order. Despite lack of resources and unfair geographical dispensation, Pakistan, by the Grace of God, has made great strides in several sectors like industry, agriculture trade, education, banking, communication, etc. It has attained the prestigious status of a Nuclear Power. However, it has yet to achieve its goal of building a Modern, Islamic, Welfare society in its true sense. After the achievement of Pakistan, it was incumbent upon us to strengthen the spiritual, moral and material foundations of our nationhood and to lead the nation to the path of intrinsic and extrinsic merit as dictated by our Ideology. This, unfortunately, did not happen. After independence, an insidious culture of self promotion, vested interests and greed began to flourish such practices gave way to frustration which developed into disgruntlement. Stray voices began to be heard against the very concept of Pakistan. Something had gone amiss! Something that needed to be rectified forthwith. A cross-section of the new generation began to emerge with shadows of doubt and insecurity lurking in their eyes instead of the starry lights of hope and good cheer. The house had to be called to order, not by the clichés of superficial slogans but by logical and well thought out revival of the Two Nation Theory in the light of the present situation and a bright future intended for the country. It was fully realized that ideological states which abandon their ideologies are left with no basis for their survival. The establishment of Pakistan put a stop to the realization of the dream of Hindu's to break our Islamic spirit and character. Unending scenes of bloody communal strife since independence in India further demonstrated the vicious working of the Hindu mind. In 1947 it looked as if the Muslims of the Sub-continent, after two hundred years of British domination, were to be pushed into a far worse scenario of living as subservient subjects under a Hindu supremacist regime. Pakistan, as a matter of fact, provided a haven for the Muslims of the Sub-continent, where they could live their lives, both temporal and spiritual, in peace, dignity and harmony. The cornerstone of this haven was laid by great Muslim leaders such as, Muhammad Bin Qasim, Sultan Mahmood Ghaznavi, Emperor Aurangzeb, Sultan Tipu Shaheed, Syed Ahmed Shaheed, Haji Shariat Ullah, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, Titu Mir, Nawab Saleem Ullah, Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar and a host of dignitaries provided the necessary wherewith all. Blood of a million martyrs cemented its foundations and finally an edifice was raised to the design and specifications of Allama Iqbal. It was a symbol of Islamic Renaissance carrying Pakistan's message of peace, universal brotherhood, and goodwill to the rest of the world. Today this haven stands as a glorious light house, glowing with a myriad beacons representing the sacrifices of the Muslims of the Sub-continent, not the least of the Indian Muslims, who remained in the forward bloc, knowing full well that they may not, all, be able to migrate to Pakistan to live in the new Muslim country for the creation of which they had themselves offered super human sacrifices in many ways, which has no parallel in the History of the mankind. You can contact us at Email: Postal Mail: Nazaria-i-Pakistan Foundation, adjacent PC Hotel, Shahrah-i-Quaid-i- Azam, Lahore, Pakistan.
Posted by: acharya Apr 14 2004, 06:30 PM Books Pakistan as Experimental Base of Islam [Urdu] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Muzaffar Hussain Publishing Date: December 2002 (Pages 224 ) This is an analytical book with beautifully cited basic references which deals with the subjects such as the establishment of Pakistan, Ulema’s Role in the creation of Pakistan; Islamization in Pakistan – Islam and Allama Iqbal; Purpose of the creation of Pakistan; Welfare Democracy ; Our Future: Spiritual Democracy and the Futuristic Universal System. It consists of nine chapters including the one referred to above with a thoughtful Foreword from the pen of Dr. Rafique Ahmad, Secretary, Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life of the Quaid-i-Azam [Urdu] (At a Glance) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Dr. Ghulam Hussain Zulfiqar Publishing Date: June 2001 (Pages 64 ) This is an interesting research-based narrative by a prolific writer which deals with the life and achievements of the Founder of the Nation. It is a brief account beginning from 1876, which encompasses salient features of the great leader's great deeds in a lucid style until his last breath in 1948. This useful reading material is reasonably informative for the students as well as for the common readers. The book carries a philosophic Foreword written by Prof. Dr. Rafique Ahmad, Secretary, Nazaria-i-Pakistan Foundation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Muslim’s Genocide in Bharat by Hindu Extremists [Urdu] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Translated at: Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation Publishing Date: June 2002 (Pages 72 ) This is an account of horrible massacre of Muslims particularly Muslim women in Gujrat Province of Bharat. It is an authentic report of a six-women panel belonging to Delhi, Banglore, Ahmadabad and Tamil Nadu. The panel went around the curfew-clamped cities and gathered facts interviewing those women who survived. It throws light on heart-piercing detail of worst type of atrocities committed to Muslim women. The Report unveils the so-called secularism in Bharat and also the ugly role of the Police and State agencies, including BJP, Bajrang Dal and other extremist anti Muslim elements. The book carries well-written Foreword by Majid Nizami, Chairman, Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah–Mah-o-Sal Kay Aiyne Main [Urdu] (A Chronology) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Humayon Adeeb Publishing Date 1995 (Pages 202 ) This is an authentic chronology of the Life and Achievements of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah from 1876 to 1948. At places, where deemed appropriate, the editor has given explanatory notes which has made the book attractive and authentic too. This is a useful reading material for the students, scholars, researchers and writers working on the life of the creator of Pakistan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Azeem Tehrik-e-Azadi [Urdu] (The Great Freedom Struggle) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Muhammad Mustafa Publishing Date: 1995 (Pages 284 ) This book is a simple narrative of the Muslim’s struggle for Independence under the leadership of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. It has been divided into three major sections – the first deals with happenings between 1498 to 1856, the second from 1875 to 1905 and the last covers the period between 1906 to 1947. This book a detailed account of Muslim History of the South Asian sub-continent that begins from the Muslim's advent in the region discussing various events of Hindu-Muslim conflict ultimately carving a path for the creation of a separate homeland for Muslim India. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shaheed-e-Millat Liaquat Ali Khan [English] (Birth Centenary – An Anthology) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Compiled by: Tahrik-e-Takmil-e-Pakistan Publishing Date 1995 (Pages 138 ) This book has been divided into two parts. Part I consists of thirteen articles written in English by eminent writers who have discussed in detail the glorious services rendered by Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan for the cause of Pakistan Movement as the “right hand man” of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Part II consists of six chapters written in Urdu on the life and works of Liaquat Ali Khan, the first Prime Minister of Pakistan. The book includes a Foreword by Mahmud Ali, Chairman, Tahrik-e-Takmil-e-Pakistan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jihad-e-Azadi [Urdu] (Struggle for Freedom) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Edited by: Kramat Ali Khan Publishing Date: 1995 (Pages 224 ) This Book contains thirteen analytical articles contributed by well-known writers. These articles throw light on various aspects of the great struggle for Pakistan under the dynamic leadership of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Each article deals with the subject on different angle. The book includes appendices on the Resolution regarding Foundation of the All-India Muslim League, Simla Deputation (1906), Lucknow Pact (1916), Nehru Report (1928), Quaid’s Fourteen Points (1929), Allama Iqbal’s famous Presidential Address (1930) and the Quaid’s historic Presidential Address (1940). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Azm-e-Alishan-Pakistan [Urdu] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Prof. Mohammad Muzaffar Mirza Publishing Date 1995 (Pages 194 ) This book is based on selected articles written by the author which deal with the happenings that led to the creation of Pakistan in 1947. It deals with subjects such as the Quaid and the Muslim League, the Kashmir Question, The Elections of 1937, The Hindu Atrocities, Quaid and Gandhi, Pakistan Resolution, The Quaid's Vision of Pakistan and Allama’s concept about a separate Muslim State.
Posted by: acharya Apr 14 2004, 06:30 PM
Booklets Madr-i-Millat Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah [Urdu] (A Glimpse at the life and statements) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Publishing Date: April 2003 (Pages 32 ) An informative booklet on the life and statements of Madar-e-Millat Mohtarma Fatima Jinnah. It is a simple narrative which throws light on the Madar-e-Millat’s early life, education, contribution in the League's Struggle for Pakistan and her life-long selfless devotion to the founder of the Nation. Its second part deals with her rare statements issued on different occasions from 1943 to 1964. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rawish Rawish Roshan [Urdu] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Editor: Sardar Muhammad Chaudhry Publishing Date: May 2001 (Pages 158 ) A useful handy booklet containing highly meaningful sayings of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah ranging between the period 1916 to 1948. The topics on which the Quaid has thrown light are: Basis of Muslim Nationalism, Freedom movement, Administration, Economic system, Unity, Faith, Discipline and love for the Holy Prophet (BPUH). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Trail Blazer [English] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Editor: Sardar Muhammad Chaudhry Publishing Date: May 2001 (Pages 131 ) A pocket sized booklet containing rosary of readings based on the memories of the Quaid-i-Azam’s essential wisdom, beauty, and clarity of thought on issues of permanent importance for the Security, solidarity and progress of Pakistan along with his crisp and lively comments on contemporary personalities. more... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Living Quotes [Bi-Lingual] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Editor: Dr. Rafique Ahmad Publishing Date: August 2001 (Pages 79 ) A bi-lingual pocket-size booklet containing pearls of wisdom of the Founder of the Nation on different lively issues. Some of these deal with subjects such as the Holy Quaran and the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him). Besides above subjects such as tow-nation theory, Islamic tenets, Education, Youth, Women, Labours, Democracy, Kashmir and Minorities have aslo been included in it. It also throws light on the Quaid’s activities as Governor General after the creation of Pakistan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pak-Bharat War September 1965 [Urdu] (Observations and Facts) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: S. M. Zafar Publishing Date: October 2002 (Pages 24 ) This informative booklet is based on the personal observations of the author who was then a Cabinet Minister. This oral version elaborates details of Indo-Pak September War 1965 unveiling hidden motives of the enemy and the happenings taking place behind the scene hitherto unknown. This attempt, in fact is based on the memories of the author wgi has lucidly discussed the Indo-Pak war hysteria. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pakistan’s Ideological Foundation and Modern Requirements [Urdu] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Mahmood Ali Publishing Date: September 1999 (Pages 27 ) This booklet deals with the historical background of the Struggle for Pakistan with a detailed account of Hindu Muslim conflict during the British regime in the South Asian sub-continent. It also deals with the state of affairs after 1947 and internal bickering in the country leading to the dismemberment of Pakistan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Politico–Historical and Cultural Aspects of the Ideology of Pakistan [Urdu] Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation Author: Dr. Ishtiaq Hussain Qurreshi Publishing Date: September 1999 (Pages 28 ) This is a thought–provoking study of the politico-historical factors that gave birth to the idea of two-nation theory. It is an authentic study which reflects not only political scenario of British India but also gives an account of cultural aspect of the divergent societies that inhibited in India and ultimately resulted in parting of the ways.
Posted by: acharya Apr 14 2004, 06:31 PM
Leaflets Introduction-Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation [Urdu] Publisher: Nazaria-e-Pakistan foundation A leaflet consisting of eight pages that gives a comprehensive account of the purpose of the establishment of Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation. It contains detail of aims and objectives and various thematic programmes to be followed by the Foundation from time to time. The leaflet thus highlights subjects like the Ideology of Pakistan, Factors leading to the creation of Pakistan, Foundation’s Mission and Future educational and awareness Programmes for masses especially the younger generation of Pakistan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How to Celebrate Madr-e-Millat’s Year 2003 [Urdu] (Enlightenment amongst women of Pakistan and their role in nation-building) Publisher: Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation It is a 17-pages leaflet cum brochure which contains a number of programmes of different species with regard to celebrating the year 2003 as Madre-e-Millat year to infuse afresh spirit among women of Pakistan in particular who could participate enthusiastically in the nation-building programmes outlined in it. Holding of Conferences, Seminar Lectures, Speech contests, Quiz Programmes and Writing of Articles and booklets/books on the life and achievements of the Madr-e-Millat are main features of the year’s celebration programmes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How to Celebrate Iqbal Year-2002 [Urdu] (125th Birth Anniversary) Publisher: Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation This leaflet is a short-list of various programmes and activities with regard to celebration of Allama Iqbal Year on the occasion of his 125th Birth Anniversary. It contains a number of titles as a guideline for general public, students, women, labour force and alike who could participate in the result-oriented activities while commemorating the services of the great poet philosopher rendered for Muslim Ummah. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How to Celebrate the Quaid’s Year-2001 [Urdu] Publisher: Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation This leaflet contains some guidelines for celebrating the year 2001 as the Quaid Year. The purpose, in fact is to commemorate the laudable services of the great leader and, also to acquaint the masses especially the younger generation thereby inculcating enthusiasm in the rank and file of the Pakistani nation to strengthen their beloved country by contributing more and more in whatever field they belong to. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Living Quotes [Urdu] (Unity, Faith, Discipline) Publisher: Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation Hand Bills bearing living quotes of the Quaid-i-Azam on subject such as the Two-Nation Theory – Islamic Character, Education, Youth, Women and the Kashmir. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special Programmes of Independence Day [Urdu] (9th Aug to 14th Aug 2002) Publisher: Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation An eight pages leaflet outlining different programmes for celebrating the 56th Independence Day-2003. It contains a comprehensive programme which include Photo Exhibition relating to the Quaid, Iqbal and the Freedom Movement. It also mentions details of special lectures on different subjects by renowned scholars and dignitaries. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Celebrations of a Weekly Programme in connection with Allama Iqbal Year [Urdu] (1st November to 9th November 2003) Publisher: Nazaria-e-Pakistan Foundation A 4-pages leaflet outlining different lectures on Allama Iqbal by eminent scholars including speeches contests and competition to recite Allama Iqbal’s poetry with rhythm amongst school and college students. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Celebration of a Weekly Programme of Independence [Urdu] (7th August to 14th August 2002) Publisher Nararia-e-Pakistan Foundation An eight pages leaflet which contains various programmes to celebrate “Independence Week”. It contains programmes such as Photo Exhibition of the Quaid and the Struggle for Pakistan, Book Exhibition on the Struggle for the Pakistan, Documentary Films on the Quaid, Allama Iqbal and Journey to Freedom, Lectures on the Movement by renowned scholars and interesting events for children and a few cultural shows for the masses.
Posted by: Reggie Apr 14 2004, 08:56 PM
Arindam, Great work (and thru RN, I know you are on TOP of things). Look at the cartoon (mushy thinking of the hanger). Click on left side on "cartoon." Can sombody morp that into a noose? Great for psyops.
Posted by: Krishna Apr 14 2004, 09:15 PM
Arindamji, A great summary of the FACTS. Please accept my sincere thanks for taking the time to write up an article that lasy out the things the way it is. Everyone else, please pass on the article to others. Learn to share...... smile.gif
Posted by: SSridhar Apr 15 2004, 09:22 AM
Rangudu, There is no single answer, IMHO. You ask different TSPian and you will get different answers, as usual. The following may be a partial but significant list of fears and feverish imaginations of TSPians. IMHO, the 23 richest families (or so) of TSP who effectively rule the country have cleverly fuelled and stoked these for their own narrow ends and the beneficiaries - these 23 families, the military, the top bureaucrats and the mullah - don't want to let go of this strategy. Just look at the lengths to which this powerful nexus has gone to further their wet dream of perpetuating their interests. They gave a go-by to the ummah concept when they sided with the West in the Suez-episode, furthered relationship with a rabidly-communist China while being part of CENTO/SEATO, were willing to get their country dismembered rather than lose control, willing to cede a part of their illegally-held land to China to get their support against India etc... All this Nazaria-e-Pakistan is a hogwash, swallowed hook line and sinker by the other unsuspecting denizens of the Land of the Pure. It also happens that these denizens are pliable in the hands of the 23-plus- militay-plus-mullahs, just like their own state in the hands of the West and China.
  • India is a land where Muslims are in great danger and so it is enjoined upon an Islamic State, especially the only one that was created for Islam, to come to the rescue of the ummah
  • Regain the lost glory of the Mughal rulers. For 800 years immediately before the advent of the British, the Mughals and the various Sultans and Nawabs ruled vast tracts of India and hence it is logical to expect that power should naturally have been transferred to them when the British left.
  • TSP has been cheated by the Brits and the cunning Indians ("moth-eaten" was the word used by Jinnah to describe the TSP he inherited). Jinnah tried his best to cut a wide-swathe of princely states starting from Bhopal upto Kathiawar (including Junagadh, Hyderabad) off India but didn't succeed. That is the anger that drives many fighting for Kashmir especially as it happens to be Muslim majority as well and a wrong sense of history has been deliberately foisted upon TSPians.
  • The military-political nexus "worries" about other things such as a lack of "strategic depth", all the watershed areas under India's control, the desire to avenge the ignominy of 1971.
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 17 2004, 02:17 AM
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 18 2004, 02:34 PM
Around 2,000 Pakistani tribesmen began a search on Sunday for foreign Islamic militants and tribal allies just inside the Pakistani border with Afghanistan. The operation in South Waziristan comes several weeks after the Pakistan army's biggest strike against militants linked to al-Qaeda and the Taleban. More than 100 militants and troops were killed then. However no senior al-Qaeda figure or the tribal leaders who may have been sheltering them was caught. The tribesmen are under heavy pressure to do better.
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 20 2004, 11:29 AM liar.gif Tribal elders in the South Waziristan region of Pakistan have announced a suspension of their hunt for al-Qaeda militants and their supporters. A group of 2,000 armed men began the operation on Sunday. The reason for the sudden halt is not clear - but some tribesmen said it was to wait for outcome of secret talks between elders and the government. The authorities had threatened further military action if the tribesmen do not flush out the militants. Elders' meeting "We have been approached by the wanted men asking us to halt," an unnamed tribal elder told the BBC. The BBC's Haroon Rashid in Peshawar says that nature of the proposals is not yet clear, but government officials have confirmed that the suspension request came from Neik Muhammad. Mr Muhammad is a senior tribesman in South Waziristan who has been charged with harbouring al-Qaeda members. A tribal elders' meeting has meanwhile been summoned in the regional capital, Wana, on Wednesday. A senior military official told the Associated Press news agency that the performance of the elders had been satisfactory. "We do not think there is any urgency for military action," he said, "and we are making an extension of the deadline." 'No resistance' Earlier this week, the tribal "lashkar" (army) spread out in two groups through South Waziristan carrying rifles and rocket launchers. The tribesmen said they had sealed off some mountain passes 20km (12.5 miles) from Wana, and demolished two houses of clansmen believed to have harboured militants. There were no reports any resistance. Pakistan wants the tribes to rid the Afghan border region of all foreign militants. However, the BBC's Rahimullah Yusufzai in Peshawar questions whether using undisciplined tribal fighters will bring any results. He says any new army operation will also be harder because the militants are now even more dispersed than before. Many al-Qaeda and Taleban fighters fled into Pakistan when the American-led military campaign began in Afghanistan at the end of 2001. There have been persistent reports that al-Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden and his Egyptian deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, are in the area. Pakistan is under heavy pressure to kill or capture them as the Americans and their Nato and Afghan allies step up operations on the other side of the border. Cheers
Posted by: k.ram Apr 20 2004, 11:35 AM
Actions against India to continue: Jihad Council MUZAFFARABAD, April 18: The Muttahida Jihad Council on Sunday has ruled out a ceasefire with Indian troops in the occupied Kashmir and threatened to continue "effective actions until achieving freedom'. The council in a statement issued here, reiterated its resolve in this regard at a meeting held here with Syed Salahuddin in the chair. The meeting expressed satisfaction over the "progress of liberation movement on military, political and diplomatic fronts" and paid tribute to the freedom fighters and Kashmiri people for their "bravery, patience, perseverance and will for emancipation". It noted that some people were "pointlessly circumambulating the Delhi Darbar by ignoring sacrifices rendered by 500,000 people, of molestation of thousands of ... women and arson and loot of hundreds of towns." "We call upon them to ... re-join the liberation movement and we make it clear that we will never allow anyone to betray the martyrs' blood," it declared. Though the statement did no mention any names, but the MJC statement seemed to be referring to Maulana Abbas Ansari- led faction of the All-Parties Hurriyat Conference, which entered into dialogue with India earlier this year. Though the moderate faction said earlier this month that it would ask people to stay away from the parliamentary polls yet mujahideen outfits appeared to be skeptical about their announcement. "We also appeal the freedom loving people, government servants and transporters in the (Indian) occupied Kashmir not to participate in or extend any sort of cooperation to the so-called polls," the MJC said, reiterating its earlier appeal to the people as well as the freedom fighters' commitment to lend unconditional support to the anti poll campaigners. "Those taking part in the farcical process would be taken as blatant traitors of the oppressed Kashmiri nation...," the MJC said. The statement urged mujahideen released from various prisons in the occupied Kashmir and India not to "spoil their sacrifices by joining the groups which operate under the dictates of Indian agencies and get support from them," alluding to an outfit headed by a former Hizbul Mujahideen commander, which had been expelled for activities that were termed "against the policies and the interest of the freedom movement." "Instead, they should affiliate themselves with the movement under the patronage of the sincere leadership if they want to play any role in the freedom struggle." newsId=en61726&F_catID=&f_type=source
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 20 2004, 01:21 PM
Cross Posted on the Lok Sabha Polls Thread Spinster : It is a crying shame that our Manya Shree Pradhaan Mantirji made the statement India, Pak ready to counter terror together: PM a day after, i.e. 19 April 2004, when the Lotastaanis had made the following statement : ISLAMAWORST : Pakistan would sign separate agreements with 22 countries of East-South Asia minus India to counter rising threat of terrorism. Under these accords classified intelligence information would be shared by the parties. The proposed draft of terrorism agreement was tabled in the last federal cabinet meeting by the Ministry of Interior with the consultation of Foreign Office. India is not included in these countries as despite recent CBMs, New Delhi has not been placed by Islamabad in exclusive category of "friendly" countries. "Given the security perception and apprehension and level of distrust between the two hostile neighbours since partition in 1947, Pakistan could not afford at this stage to share any kind of classified information with India", sources claimed. They said India had been accusing Pakistan of spreading terrorism so it was not advisable at this stage to enter into agreement to counter terrorism with New Delhi. Sources said separate agreements with 22 countries are being signed to counter the propaganda against Pakistan for its alleged support to the al-Qadea operatives in the past particularly before 9/11. Methinks Manya Shree Pradhaan Mantri Ji has to indulge more in Realism than in Poetry. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 20 2004, 03:43 PM Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Apr 20 2004, 04:19 PM
Anyhow, in the age of pre-emptive intervention for the US and its core allies like Israel and India
This is news to me
Tailpiece: Did you know the difference between assassination and murder? According to the Oxford Reference Dictionary, murder is the "intentional and unlawful killing of one person by another" (it does not have to be by violent means); assassination refers to killing ‘an important person’ by "violent means usually for political or religious motives." So, while murder may remain unlawful in most societies, assassinations will soon become kosher worldwide, if the new trend catches on! God help us all!
Posted by: Viren Apr 21 2004, 11:25 AM
Charade continues... THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
WORLD NEWS Musharraf May Pose Dilemma for U.S. By ZAHID HUSSAIN and JAY SOLOMON Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL April 21, 2004; Page A16 Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's hints that he might not relinquish his post as army chief this year have set the stage for a potential constitutional row -- and could pose a policy dilemma for the Bush administration, which has made him one of its principal allies in the U.S.-led war against al Qaeda. Political analysts in Islamabad say that should Gen. Musharraf quit his army post by Dec. 31 -- as he is required to do by Pakistan's constitution -- he will lose significant influence within the military. That, in turn, could diminish Pakistan's support for the war on al Qaeda's Islamist terrorists, since many Pakistanis are critical of Islamabad's alliance with Washington. Should Gen. Musharraf decide to continue to serve as both president and army chief, he will undercut the country's push to return to democratic rule, something Washington says it supports. Last week, Gen. Musharraf startled members of his government by saying in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp. that he might not give up his army post, as he has pledged to do. Under an agreement reached in December with a coalition of conservative Islamic political parties, called the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, or MMA, Gen. Musharraf made a commitment to quit the military in exchange for the MMA approving his continuation as president until 2007. The Islamic parties also agreed to support amending the constitution to give him sweeping powers, as well as to oversee a military-staffed National Security Council. In the BBC interview, Gen. Musharraf said his leaving the army is a "contentious issue, and I have to consider many other issues before quitting the army command." He added that "one has to wait and see" whether he would keep his promise to give up his military post. The president also accused the MMA of abrogating December's agreement by not supporting the creation of a National Security Council. Last week, Pakistan's Parliament narrowly passed the bill creating the National Security Council in a vote that opposition lawmakers boycotted. The NSC has been on the military's agenda since the 1980s, in part because the agency would for the first time legally institutionalize the military's role in Pakistani politics. Many political analysts contend the NSC would turn Pakistan's Parliament into a rubber stamp for the Musharraf government. Some Pakistan government officials maintain Gen. Musharraf ultimately will resign his army post, despite his recent comments. Legal experts say it will be difficult for Gen. Musharraf to wriggle out of his constitutional commitments. Opposition parties have threatened to call a nationwide strike if he reneges on his commitment. A State Department spokesman Tuesday said Washington intends to take Gen. Musharraf at his word that he will step down at the end of the year. Still, there is growing concern in Islamabad that Gen. Musharraf is hedging on his promise to return Pakistan to full democracy. For example, a group of five federal ministers formally announced last week that they, too, want the president to continue to hold his army post to ensure stability. Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayat said Gen. Musharraf should "continue in uniform at least for two more years." There are other signs of the president's increasingly authoritarian stance. Last week, for example, a Pakistani court sentenced opposition leader Javed Hashmi of the Pakistan Muslim League to 23 years in prison after he was convicted of sedition for distributing a letter purportedly written by some army officers who criticized Musharraf policies. "U.S. officials have repeatedly expressed our concerns to Pakistani officials that Mr. Hashmi's case be handled in a fair and transparent manner," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said last week. Write to Jay Solomon at
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 21 2004, 02:59 PM Indian and Pakistani officials will hold confidence-building talks on nuclear issues in Islamabad next month. India's external affairs ministry said on Wednesday it had accepted the dates of 25 and 26 May proposed by Pakistan earlier this month. Delhi said it had also agreed to drug trafficking talks on 15 and 16 June. Pakistan and India set out a "roadmap" in February for discussing all issues dividing the nations, including the disputed region of Kashmir. Exchange of information An Indian official told the Associated Press that Delhi would want a briefing from Pakistan on the measures it had taken to safeguard nuclear security following the scandal involving leading scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan. Dr Khan this year admitted passing nuclear secrets to Libya, North Korea and Iran. The May confidence-building talks will be at expert level. The measures discussed will include an annual exchange of information on the location of each other's nuclear installations and facilities. The roadmap then calls for the nations' foreign secretaries to meet, probably in June, followed by a meeting of foreign ministers in August. The roadmap was agreed at a landmark meeting in Islamabad in February - the first such dialogue in three years and the culmination of a thaw that began in April 2003. The nuclear-armed rivals say they want to reach a peaceful settlement of all bilateral issues, including Kashmir. They have fought two of their three wars since independence over the region. Tens of thousands of people have died there since militants took up arms against Indian rule in 1989. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Apr 22 2004, 02:47 PM Excellent article by Arindam Banerji
Posted by: Mudy Apr 23 2004, 03:50 PM
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 24 2004, 02:30 AM Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT specialist, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution. ...... "Islam is not like Christianity, where they turn the other cheek. If they raid our homes, it could lead to the covenant of security being broken. "Islam allows us to retaliate. That would include" - he tugs his "Jihad" coat tight against the night air - "by violent means." Cheers
Posted by: Sudhir Apr 25 2004, 07:46 PM
No comments - enjoy grenade.gif -------------------------------------------------------------------,9171,1101040503-629329,00.html TIME ONLINE EDITION A Truce on Terror Rooting Out Al-Qaeda By TIM MCGIRK AND GHULAM HASNAIN Monday, May. 03, 2004 A Pakistani general helicoptered into a village in the Pakistani mountains of Waziristan last weekend to meet with a stubborn enemy. Lieut. General Safdar Hussain came to sign a truce with Nek Mohammed, a tribal leader whose pro-al-Qaeda fighters had eluded capture for more than six weeks and had killed about 80 of the general's men. The Pakistani army agreed to halt its operation laugh.gif against Mohammed's militants, repay Wazir tribesmen for war damages ohmy.gif ohmy.gif and set free most of the 160 suspected al-Qaeda supporters who were captured ohmy.gif . The tribesmen were also allowed to keep their weapons ohmy.gif . In exchange, Mohammed and his clan promised to refrain from attacks on Pakistani forces and the U.S. troops in nearby Afghanistan. Gleeful rebel tribesmen accepted the easy terms—and then treated Hussain to a meal of rice and slaughtered sheep blink.gif . The truce, however, could be a severe setback for the Bush Administration whistle.gif , which has been leaning on Pakistan to carry out a clean sweep of al-Qaeda and the Taliban from the tribal territory. Mohammed is a former Taliban commander who still swears loyalty to fugitive leader Mullah Omar and was earlier accused by the Pakistani government of giving shelter to al-Qaeda fighters, possibly including Osama bin Laden. In this area Pakistani troops last month mistakenly thought they had cornered bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri. A Pakistani army spokesman said operations were halted because it had succeeded in "smashing" terrorist bases wink.gif . But no senior al-Qaeda or Taliban member was caught. A Pakistani official who brokered the truce says the deal included a guarantee from tribal leaders that "non-Pakistanis"—Arabs, Chechens and Uzbeks—would no longer cross from Waziristan to ambush U.S. troops in Afghanistan. But local officials in Waziristan say that promise is not enforceable. What's more, the truce raises doubts about the resolve of the Pakistanis pakee.gif to root out al-Qaeda fugitives from the tribal areas. Said a U.S. military spokesman in Kabul: "At the end of the day, we expect Pakistani action there." lmaosmiley.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 26 2004, 12:34 AM KARACHI: Some 630 Pakistanis deported from Oman after their arrest for illegal entry arrived home by cargo ship on Sunday, an official said. The Pakistanis had been arrested over the past four months for not having valid visas or working in Oman illegally, said Maqsood Ali Shah, an official at the Federal Investigation Agency, which deals with immigration issues. Shah said most of the people had paid human traffickers up to Rs 40,000 (US$700) for passage to Oman to find work. Last year, Oman deported at least 2,300 Pakistanis — who often travel to Middle Eastern countries illegally to find better paying jobs, usually traveling through Pakistan’s remote southwestern border with Iran. —AP Islamic Countries deport Illegal Lotastaanis and Bhookhanangadeshis Immigrants. Lotastaan deports Illegal Bhookhanangadeshis as well as the Afghanistanis Immigrants. Only India refuses to deport the 20-40 Million Illegal Bhookhanangadeshis and possibly a similar number of Lotastaanis. When will the Government of India wake up? Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 27 2004, 04:36 PM Cheers
Posted by: shiv Apr 27 2004, 10:57 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Apr 24 2004, 03:00 PM)
says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."If only the Indian Secularists and DDM could read this furious.gif
Peredrine - I feel that those of us who look upon Islam and Islamists from the ourside are being made "ulloos" - we are being made fools by them. The portion of your post that I have quoted can be interpreted in two ways: 1)No muslim is moderate or 2)No moderate person will be accepted as Muslim even if his name is Abdul and he is circumcised and prays 5 times a day. While we tend to believe No 1 as the "truth" - it is often No 2 that is being suggested by Islamists. The reason is simple. The demands of "Real Islam" as per Islamists views are too ridiculous for humand to follow - even those born into islam. The ummah is fractured and split and far from united. The only people who gain from the "bogey" that the ummah is somehow united and that the ummah consists of uncompromising fundoos are the rabid Islamsits themselves - mostly randy mullahs and young men who will die anyway. Ummah unity is a figment of our imagination and we are the first to perpetuate the myth that there is unity. The second myth we perpetuate is that the Koran is immutable. The Koran is welcome to be immutable - but what counts is what people do and the ummah have spent centuries doing a lot of diametrically opposite things - all claimed to have koranic sanction. This is where I see us swallowing the story "Oh - xyz is Islamic. he says that the Koran says this, Therefore this must be so" When we realize that the literacy of the ummah is peanuts and the mullahs are randy half-literate power grabbers - why give their words great weight by accepting it? Many of us outside the ummah read translations of the Koran and say "Ulp!! The Islamists are correct - let us accept their word". Balls. As far as I am concerned they are a bunch of illiterate barbarians - why the hell should I agree with what they say? Why should my acceptance of their words gfive sanctity to what they say? That leaves us with the final frontier, violence. I have a simple suggestion regarding violence. Violence can only be met with strength, and readiness to inflict violence. If you are not prepared to do that - you will give a walkover to those who are ready to use violence. Get ready to fight first and talk less about mythical ummaic unity or non exstent immutability.
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 28 2004, 02:44 PM
shiv : I agree with your post in its entirety. Here are my two bits on the business of the Peaceful Religion. It is difficult why the World believes such a statement about a Religion, which, is basically intolerant of any other Religion. The exhortations in the Koran to kill non-believers as well as the idol worshipers cannot be from the Creator – if it is one Creator. The One Creator – God – cannot create a new Order i.e. Islam and order its followers to kill, destroy etc. the previous creation. God cannot ask Muslims to kill the non-Muslims as He has Himself created non-Muslims too. As such the exhortations to kill and not tolerate other Religions cannot be attributed to God but to the Bedouin Culture, which, has been imposed upon the people converted to Islam in other parts of the World. In addition, this is Islam’s 15th Century. We must compare it with the Acts of the followers of Christianity (Islam sharing the “Same Book”) in Christianity’s 15th Century Christianity had its Inquisition, Burning of Witches, One Christian Sect making Christians of another Christian Sect to wear Boots filled with Hot Oil and various other Acts of Torture. In fact these Acts of Tortures were even practiced in far off places like Goa (there was a piece on the Inquisition in Goa a few years ago). That was up to Five Hundred Years ago. Today such practices are out of vogue amongst the Christians as in modern times such acts of barbarianism will not be tolerated. However Islamist – the Mullahs and their followers – still want to practice their heinous acts. It starts with the Act of Ritual Slaughter. Whereas the Ritual Slaughter originated in Judaism, where only certain qualified Priests perform the Act – I am open to correction, in Islam every Muslim male (maybe the Females too) is qualified to perform the Ritual Act of Slaughter. In fact boys of the tender age of five or so are given a pet chicken or rabbit or even a kid goat. The child feeds this pet and a bond of love develops between the two. On the appointed day the young boy performs the Act of Ritual Slaughter. As such it is very easy to direct Muslims into the life of a Terrorist in which they get to perform the Sacred Duty of the Ritual Slaughter on the Infidel. Regarding counteracting Violence : I think although an Eye for an Eye leaves the world blind in one eye but then it at least leaves us alive – one eyed it may be but alive. So I would rather use the Hindi Term i.e. “Eet ka badla Pather say” i.e. To counter Violence we must react with greater violence so that the original perpetrators become aware that the retaliation to their initial acts will be far greater. This, and only this, can stop the Acts of Violence which are being perpetrated in Kashmir and other parts of India. Cheers
Posted by: varava Apr 29 2004, 02:20 PM
This is todays news on BBC. As if Musharaaf is not fundamentalist enough, the chief of a terrorist group says that jihad is the only answer to India and the moderation concept is unacceptable, I repeat MODERATION CONCEPT IS UNACCEPTABLE IN ISLAM. Trust me, Musharaaf is part of this new game to blackmail India. When is our leadership going to open it's eyes and stop this peace shit with Pakistan. pakee.gif varava: Please don't open new threads when there's one for this topic. -Admin
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 30 2004, 01:09 AM pakee.gif TASHKENT: Uzbek President Islam Karimov said on Thursday that militants responsible for attacks that killed at least 47 people here were based in an Afghan-Pakistan border region that has been the focus of a recently intensified hunt for Al Qaeda fugitives. “The main base where the terrorists found refuge is South Waziristan,” Karimov told a news conference during a parliamentary session. Suspects detained after a string of suicide bombings, explosions and assaults in the capital Tashkent and the central region of Bukhara confessed that they had been in South Waziristan and that they had ties to people operating there, he said. Karimov said the alleged militants traveled to Uzbekistan through three countries but he declined to name them, saying the facts would come out in trials expected to begin in August. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Apr 30 2004, 05:56 AM
India asked to consider reducing troops ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Thursday asked India to follow suit and consider reducing its troops to improve the regional situation. “It was Pakistan’s decision to reduce the army by 50,000 soldiers, but the idea of reducing troops can be discussed with New Delhi if India agrees on a mutual agreement in this regard,” Pakistan Army spokesman Maj Gen Shaukat Sultan told a private TV channel. He said a joint agreement could be made in this regard to improve the regional situation. Pakistan did not want to be part of a regional arms race or increase its troop strength, but the military would maintain a minimum deterrence for defence purposes, he added. He said the decision at the formation commanders’ conference was aimed at generating more resources to fulfil the army’s technical requirements. He said the army would save around Rs 11 billion by ending the orderly (batman) facility given to officers. ohmy.gif laugh.gif The decision would also help increase the Pakistan Army’s professional skill, efficiency as well as provide it with the latest technology, he added. He said each soldier would be given one rifle, night vision equipment, laser-guided weapons rolleyes.gif laugh.gif , bulletproof jackets and other equipment, and funds for the equipment would be generated indigenously instead of burdening the national exchequer[how is that possible]. Maj Gen Sultan said more educated men were joining the Pakistan Army. Giving details, he said 70 percent of the newly inducted men were matriculated, 15 percent intermediate and one percent BA degree holders. —Online
Posted by: rhytha Apr 30 2004, 06:00 AM $701 million aid package for Pakistan sent to US Congress mad.gif ISLAMABAD: The US administration has forwarded to the US Congress for approval the $701 million financial assistance package to Pakistan in the next US financial year that begins in October. The $701 million is part of a $3 billion assistance package committed to Pakistan by the Bush administration when both heads of state met at Camp David last June. “In the current fiscal year, $480 million of our debt will be waived by the US administration which will reduce our debt to $1.6 billion from $2.1 billion,” Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz told Daily Times after his return from the United States. Mr Aziz said that this $701 million package includes $302 million for military support, $300 million for economic support, $52 million for health and development spending, $40 million for narcotics control and $7 million for anti-terror and border security. The total $3 billion package spreads over five years and contains half economic and half military assistance. The Bush administration had already waived one billion dollars of Pakistan’s debt and would gradually waive the remaining debt to help create fiscal space for the government to spend on the development sector. The US had already offered $700 million in financial assistance in 2002 and then, almost $390 million in the second year before this package was decided on. Pakistan had already said that it suffered from a $2.8 billion initial loss due to the war in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Peregrine Apr 30 2004, 07:43 AM
The KPT would also be offering port facilities to northern areas of China besides meeting the future demands of north-western areas of India, he added. He suggested re-construction of the dilapidated roads and rail links of Khokarapar so that the KPT could start servicing the shipping needs of northern provinces of India.
pakee.gif This Love and Peace between India and Lotastaan is driving the Lotastaanis round the bend. The stupid Lotastaanis think that India will import goods via Karachi and have it shipped to India by Rail without realizing that India has three to four ports in the Gujarat-Kutch area i.e. Mundra, Kandla and Okha. There are anchorage ports in Navlakhi & Bedi and if required additional facilities could be developed in Mandvi. These idiots do not realize that not only will use of Karachi mean additional distance but also “Transit Costs” and then the ever present danger of the acts of the Terrorists etc. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: SSridhar May 1 2004, 12:24 PM
rhytha and funds for the equipment would be generated indigenously instead of burdening the national exchequer[how is that possible].
By selling what some of them are smoking...
Posted by: Mudy May 2 2004, 09:53 AM'Women~safer~in~Karachi~than~in~Delhi' New Delhi: Contrary to popular belief, women and girls are much safer on the streets of Karachi than in Delhi, according to a group of Sikh women from Pakistan, who were in India last week to participate in the fifth centenary celebrations of Guru Angad Dev. "Unlike what most people think here, Pakistan is totally safe for women, be they Muslim or non-Muslim... probably much more than here," says Nirmal Kaur, a 52-year old Sindhi Sikh, who was born and brought up in Pakistan. "Our girls go to the same schools and colleges as their Muslim counterparts; they go shopping in the evening, to restaurants and movies... the Pakistan of today is different from what it was few decades back," says Nirmal. Nirmal's daughter is married to a Delhiite and she thanks God for the thaw in relations between India and Pakistan. "I am visiting my daughter after 10 long years," she says. The Indian capital is a changed . "Delhi's culture has changed too fast... but the love that people have for us here is still the same," she says adding, "Wherever we have gone, we have been welcomed with open arms." On whether she would like to migrate to India, given the choice, Nirmal immediately says "No. Pakistan is our country. We are Pakistanis." The same feelings are expressed by other members of her group. "We are happy in Pakistan. Especially after the coming of Musharraf, things have changed a lot for the betterment of all communities," says Kirpal Das, a businessman from Jacobabad. "The business has started picking up and especially after both sides started normalisation process, there is lot of activity in Pakistan. The cricket series resulted in good business also," says Das. He, however, recalls that "the going had become really difficult for us, when Babri Masjid was demolished here. Our temples and Gurdwaras were attacked and we too faced constant threats." However, Nirmal is quick to add that these religious places were rebuilt by the government later. She says, liar "Things were different at time of Godhra riots. Though some fundamentalists raised voices, the administration was strict and nothing much happened." About recent reports on the condition of Gurdwaras and temples in Pakistan, she says, "The government of late has started renovation work at most of the historical religious places." liar On educating children about their religion, Das says, "Our children go to public schools, which are neutral and do not preach a particular religion. liar But scholars of Sikh religion are there in Gurdwaras and we send our children there during holidays so that they remain aware about the teachings of the Gurus." There are few ashrams also, which teach religious diktats, Kirtan and other Sikh tenants to young students, says Nirmal adding, "We do the best we can to keep our religion alive there."
Posted by: Peregrine May 2 2004, 11:24 PM Three Chinese engineers have been killed and at least 10 injured in a suspected car bomb blast in south-west Pakistan, say police and officials. The attack happened as a bus was taking at least 12 Chinese workers to a project they are working on at Gawadar port, which is near the Iranian border. Local police chief Sattar Lasi said it was not clear if it had been a suicide attack or detonated by remote control. A Chinese Embassy duty officer said the situation was being monitored closely. Added Later : Cheers
Posted by: Sudhir May 3 2004, 08:09 AM
Is Sarah around to help us understand the "Hudood Ordinances"?,0000.htm
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha May 3 2004, 07:33 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ May 2 2004, 11:53 AM)'Women~safer~in~Karachi~than~in~Delhi'
If they really love TSP, good for them, let them rot there. In the mean time Yankies out there on the front line are not very happy with their govt. policy with the new wife.
Posted by: Viren May 4 2004, 10:35 AM
Posted by: Mudy May 4 2004, 10:48 AM
user posted image LOTASTAANI PORT BLAST KILLS THREE Let them make nuclear Power plant.
Posted by: Peregrine May 4 2004, 04:00 PM
user posted image pakee.gif Prime Minister Jamali says his school days are over now liar.gif
ISLAMAWORST : Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali on Friday said he was not taking lessons from anyone, when asked at a press conference on his return from a nine-day four-nation visit what lessons he had learned about democracy and economic development from those countries. “I have stopped taking lessons from anybody. The school days are now over,” said the prime minister, who was asked a number of questions on the domestic political situation. He did not clarify whether his comments had any domestic relevance.
Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 4 2004, 04:14 PM Cheers
Posted by: Viren May 4 2004, 04:19 PM
Gee, the cat's off to Haj whistle.gif after swallowing couple hundred mice huh? If we care to write a 'A lust for non-muslim blood' we'll run out of disk-space dry.gif The hag yet again rakes up 'Godhra' without mentioning the fact that more Shias have been murdered by her Sunni brothers in Lottastan since. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 4 2004, 04:28 PM
Her reference to "G" as usual. Ofcourse no reference of 56 Hindus or ethnic cleansing of millions of Hindus from Kashmir by Pakistani terrorist supported by Pakistan Dictator and funded by Pakistani muslims during EId and other occasion. Hundreds of mini riots started by muslim always miss her weekly rant.
Posted by: Peregrine May 4 2004, 11:37 PM
Mudy : Every time a Lotastaani mentions India then the next phrase-sentence is about the Gujarat Riots. There is no mention of the Muslims starting the whole sordid affair by setting fire to the train compartment / bogey carrying 56 Hindus. However, the same is the case with the Indian Desi Dork Media. The only wring their hands about the Effect but never the Cause. If the Indian Media – totally dominated by the Hindus – refuses to mention the cause then what are the chances of the Hindu-Killing Lotastaanis mentioning it? furious.gif Cheers
Posted by: Viren May 5 2004, 11:33 AM so the cheif tub of lard distances himself by saying "Hijackers have no nationality"
Posted by: Peregrine May 5 2004, 11:59 PM pakee.gif
Someone blew up three Chinese engineers in Gwadar Monday morning. It was a remote-controlled car bomb that hit a passing van headed for the port facility. Apart from the three Chinese killed, 11 others, including five Chinese and two Pakistanis, were injured in the blast. No one claimed the act of terrorism, but the police have arrested 13 Baloch citizens.
Unfortunately, like all other national projects, there is a lack of consensus over the need for and scope of Gwadar in Balochistan. Leaving aside fringe opinion which sees it as a part of unwanted globalisation, all Baloch parties are united over the fact that the federal government was wrong to exclude Balochistan from the project. Lumping it with the disputed gas royalties, the Baloch see in a Baloch-controlled Gwadar a road to autonomy, out of the economic squeeze they think has been imposed unfairly on them by the centre. On April 3, Baloch leader Akbar Bugti was quoted in the national press as saying that his partymen would not allow the building of Gwadar Port in Balochistan. He said they would hunt down the rulers who had made the master plan for Gwadar. Already Pakistan had looted the wealth of Balochistan, he said, now his party would not allow any more cantonments to be built in the province. He warned that ‘we will drown all those who were building the Gwadar port’. Earlier, the chief of Balochistan National Party, Sardar Ataullah Mengal, was quoted as saying that if investment in Gwadar was against the wishes of the Baloch, the investors would not go back alive. He said Gwadar was being made for the Americans. The Americans would run away but the Punjabis would be unable to flee. He said the Punjabis were determined to convert the Baloch into a minority in their own province. The Baloch would not allow their identity to be destroyed in the name of investment, he said.
C H E E R S cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren May 6 2004, 10:22 AM
From the hijacking story posted above:
Details of the plot came a day after Pakistan announced it was beefing up security at 35 airports nationwide.
Where can one get a list of airports in TSP? Does Pakistan have 35 airports????
Posted by: Mudy May 6 2004, 10:29 AM
35 airport includes private and airforce base. Actual reason biggrin.gif
Panic over Shahbaz's return THE Civil Aviation Authority's decision to put the country's airports on red-alert on Tuesday might have more to do with PML-N President Mian Shahbaz Sharif's return from exile than a possible hijacking threat, especially as all international and domestic flights are landing and taking off according to schedule. This coincides with the imposition of Section 144 in Lahore banning political rallies and procession, which will remain in force till May 11. Meanwhile the police has been raiding the houses of PML-N workers for the past couple of days with Press reports indicating several arrests in the provincial capital and elsewhere.
Posted by: Viren May 6 2004, 10:36 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ May 6 2004, 01:29 PM)
35 airport includes private and airforce base.
I did consider those too - but 35!! Unless these buggers are considering their Golf courses and rooftop bunglows where those 'Fauji Foundation' executives land their fauji choppers as 'airports' - I doubt the number 35.
Posted by: Gargi May 6 2004, 12:33 PM
Posted by: Reggie May 7 2004, 12:48 AM
Would Indian military and police use similar tactics to neutralize Islamic fundamentalists in Kashmir and elsewhere? Deliberately breaking religious taboos in times of war is not at all a novel weapon in the American arsenal, a senior retired intelligence officer told UPI. In World War II, U.S. forces captured 50 Muslim women guerillas in the Philippines, he said. Of these, 49 were executed while the 50th looked on. Then pigs' entrails were rubbed into the wounds on the dead bodies, which meant that according to Islamic lore these fighters would never be able to enter paradise. After that the surviving woman fighter was let go to tell her comrades what she had seen. "That was the end of that problem," the former officer said.
Posted by: Peregrine May 7 2004, 02:09 AM Bomb Blast Rock Karachi, Many Hurt : KARACHI, May 07: A powerful bomb exploded near a bank and a school in the business sector of Karachi today, wounding several people, police said. The attack occurred shortly after 1 p.m., the hour of Friday prayers, senior police investigator Tariq Jamil said. He gave no other details. Witnesses said they saw four ambulances ferrying the wounded from the scene. (AP/AFP/Bureau Report) Two wounded in blast in Quetta : QUETTA, May 07: An explosion outside the high court in Quetta today wounded two people, police and hospital sources said. The blast occurred at a bicycle stand outside the Baluchistan provincial court, a police official said. A hospital official said two men were being treated for injuries, one of whom was seriously hurt. (Reuters) Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine May 7 2004, 04:47 AM Authorities in Pakistan say at least 10 people have been killed in a suspected bomb attack on a mosque in the business district of Karachi. The chief medical officer at the city's main hospital said more than 100 others were injured, 25 critically. The mosque was full of Shia worshippers attending Friday prayers. Witnesses say ambulances have been ferrying casualties to hospital for treatment, and the scene is one of devastation and carnage. An interior ministry official said the death toll might rise further. Some reports said the explosion was a suicide bombing, but other witnesses said a man left a package among the rows of worshippers shortly before the blast. Angry locals A local government official told Reuters news agency more than 100 people had been inside the mosque at the time of the blast. A worker at a nearby brokerage house told the agency: "Our office on the 14th floor was shaken. We saw plumes of smoke, blood and bodies." Another witness, Kalb e-Abbas, told the Associated Press: "I was inside the mosque for Friday prayers when a bomb exploded. Something hit my arm and I saw blood all over my body." Angry locals besieged the area shouting abuse at officials and police officers. The explosion occurred at around 1300 local time (0800 GMT). No one has yet said they carried out the attack. Provincial government adviser Aftab Sheikh said many of the injured were in critical condition and several had lost limbs. "I condemn this attack; it was a barbaric act," he said. The mosque is inside one of Pakistan's oldest and most famous educational establishments, the Sindh Madrassah-tul-Islam. The establishment has separate mosques for Shias and Sunni Muslims. Pakistan is 80% Sunni Muslim with the remainder Shia. The communities have a history of violence. On 2 March, Sunni radicals killed more than 40 people and wounded 150 in an attack on a Shia procession in the south-western city of Quetta. Last July an attack on a Shia mosque in Quetta left around 50 dead. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine May 9 2004, 02:43 PM Rashid says no contact to stop Shahbaz LA WHORE: The Saudi government has rejected Pakistan’s request to influence the Sharif family to stop Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) President Shahbaz Sharif from returning to Pakistan, highly informed government sources told Daily Times on Saturday. The sources revealed that a senior army officer left for Saudi Arabia last week where he met various Saudi officials and asked them to persuade Shahbaz Sharif to change his decision to end his exile and return to Pakistan. “The Saudi officials turned down the request, saying that had it been former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, Riyadh would have stopped him from returning to Pakistan, but the case of Shahbaz Sharif was different,” sources said. They said Islamabad’s emissary wanted them to pressure Nawaz Sharif and Mian Sharif to prohibit Shahbaz to return, but Saudi officials turned down that request as well. “The Saudi government has told Pakistan that it has no business influencing elders of the Sharif family or Shahbaz regarding his return and that Islamabad should handle the issue itself,” said the sources. It could not be confirmed if the army officer is still in Saudi Arabia or has returned to Pakistan. Federal Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmad told Daily Times, “We will not contact anybody including the Saudi government to stop Shahbaz Sharif. We have our own plan to deal with him if he does comes back.” The government has always insisted that the Sharifs left Pakistan under an agreement not to return for a decade and the Saudi government would ensure that the Sharif family followed the terms agreement. A lawyer for the government did not produce a copy of an agreement with the Sharifs in a petition filed by the PML-N asking the court to order the government not to deport Shahbaz on his return Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine May 11 2004, 04:43 PM Cheers
Posted by: shiv May 12 2004, 07:31 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ May 6 2004, 11:06 PM)
QUOTE (Mudy @ May 6 2004, 01:29 PM)
35 airport includes private and airforce base.
I did consider those too - but 35!! Unless these buggers are considering their Golf courses and rooftop bunglows where those 'Fauji Foundation' executives land their fauji choppers as 'airports' - I doubt the number 35.
Viren 35 is not an unlikely number for Pakistan. TheBritish set up a large number of airfields and many still exist. Even India actually has IIRC over a 100 airfields - many in small towns that don't even have an air link. For India - a feeder airline using the Saras or something would be great. Similarly - I think 35 is a reasonable figure for Pakistan What is really great about Packees is that they will churn and stir their dung until they find one little particle of undigested food and then pick it up and crow about it by saying "Wow - food! A sumptuous feast!!"
Posted by: Viren May 12 2004, 08:02 AM
Thanks Shiv. BTW, when's your book hitting the stands. Eagerly awaiting for the same.
What is really great about Packees is that they will churn and stir their dung until they find one little particle of undigested food and then pick it up and crow about it by saying "Wow - food! A sumptuous feast!!"
Heard joke on radio just today about a loser going ga-ga to see a mail in his mailbox. A friend curious about this new found joy points to him that the mail is outstanding bill from creditor. Our moron goes - ya ya but see, they say my bill is "outstanding" thumbup.gif
Posted by: Reggie May 12 2004, 08:56 AM
Pakistan trained 9/11 hijackers DAY OF INFAMY 2001 9-11 'hijacker' told all, FBI didn't believe him In 2000, Islamist trained for mission, divulged plot to fly jets into buildings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: May 12, 2004 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2004 A British Muslim trained to be a 9-11 hijacker told an FBI counterterrorism taskforce in 2000 of a plot by terrorists to fly passengers planes into buildings, but the agents did not believe him. The 29-year-old al-Qaida recruit – interrogated for three weeks in Newark, N.J. – passed a lie detector test, the Times of London reported. The man, whose name was withheld by the paper because of threats from militants, was a waiter in a curry restaurant in Manchester, England. He was lured by al-Qaida at a mosque in Oldham, England, and attended a terrorist training school in Pakistan. The interrogation came after the man had second thoughts about his suicide mission and surrendered to police, the Times said. He had gambled away thousands of British pounds given to him by al-Qaida, reported the paper. At that time, 18 months before the 9-11 attack, other hijackers were entering the United States and enrolling at flight schools. The story arose from inquiries by the U.S. independent 9-11 commission examining the attacks, which has led to a reopening of the case. The man was brought back to Britain in 2000 by two FBI agents and handed to British security officials at London's Heathrow airport. He was questioned by Special Branch, the arm of British Police that deals with national security matters. The FBI, which wants the man to be a witness in its investigation, has criticized British authorities for ignoring a request to find him after Sept. 11, but Special Branch officers claim they went back to him and took "appropriate action," the Times said. The man was born in Britain but grew up in Pakistan before returning to Oldham at 16. He ran up huge debts gambling, the Times said, at the time a recruiter approached him at his local mosque, offering money for "a job." He accepted. "If your life has no color and a mullah says you can be a hero by dying, why not?" he said, according to the Times. "I think there are a lot of frustrated Muslim youths in Britain who feel the same way." In Lahore, Pakistan, he was trained in hijacking and became familiar with a Boeing cockpit. "I knew they wanted me to do some kind of operation in which I would die but my life was such a mess that in my mind I was already dead," he said, according to the London paper. "At that time if they had told me to strap a bomb to my body and blow myself up I would have done it as easily as taking a glass of water to drink." He returned to Britian, where he was given 5,000 pounds, then was sent to New York where he was to meet an operative at the airport. In the meantime, however, he married and had a baby. On the flight to New York, thoughts of his family changed his mind and he decided instead to slip away to Atlantic City, N.J., where he lost his money in casinos then turned himself in.
Posted by: Peregrine May 13 2004, 03:00 PM We don’t know much about Hindus living in Sindh and Balochistan. Because the mainstream media remain silent we don't get to know about their real plight. The TV channels in the private sector should focus on these forgotten communities Khaled Ahmed’s A n a l y s i s The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas. Now Balochistan had 27,000 Hindus in all The incidents of atrocities and caste-based discriminations on Dalits are increasing day by day in Tharparkar - a district where 35 per cent people belong to different Dalit communities among a million people - because of growing awareness and assertiveness of the Dalits. Several hundred Dalit employees of low-caste communities were transferred to far-flung areas under different obnoxious pretexts. Cases were initiated against the Dalit political activists. Their rural folks were threatened and even disallowed to graze their livestock on government lands called Gauchar Speaking on Geo TV (25 March 2004) federal education minister Zubaida Jalal said that she had grown up reading the same (biased) textbooks and that Pakistan had not been harmed by them. She said the Hindus of Balochistan and Sindh had not suffered because of these textbooks. There is very little information about the minorities in Pakistan, which are 5 percent of the total population and are remembered in the flag of Pakistan by the white stripe. While Christians have highlighted their problems in Punjab, very little is known about the Hindus of Balochistan. Scheduled caste (Shudra) and Untouchable (Dalit) Hindus in Sindh have been hit by the double whammy of ill-treatment at the hands of the Muslim feudal lords and the upper caste Hindus. They have also been targeted at times by the intelligence agencies because they live close to the Indian border in Tharparkar and are suspected of spying for India. Bheels and Kolis, untouchables or Dalits, have been in the news for bonded labour. In Balochistan, Hindus were 22 percent of the population in 1941; today they are only 1.6 percent, according to the 1998 census report, which may be 27,000 Hindus in all. After 1947, their exodus from the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan was considerable while they tended to stay in the Baloch areas. The exodus was the characteristic of the entire population of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan. There was a tendency among the lower caste Hindus not to migrate. The pattern of settlement today is such that Sindhi-speaking Hindus live in the Baloch areas bordering Sindh while further West near Quetta and the region called Jhalawan the Seraiki-speaking Hindus call themselves Punjabi. Hindus in Balochistan: The latest facts about the Hindu community in Balochistan have come to light in a report by Minority Rights Commission of Pakistan titled Religious Tolerance in Balochistan: Myth and Reality (2003) by Akram Mirani. The Commission sent a team to the province, which observed the Hindus of Kalat, Mastung, Machh and Kolpur and discovered that the Baloch and Brahui tribes kept them to do jobs (musicians, carpenters, merchants) considered below their honour by the Muslims. The author noted that Hindus were visible in Baloch areas but were scarce in the Pakhtun areas although in 1941 most of the 54,000 Hindus of Balochistan lived in the Pakhtun areas. After 1947, the Hindus in the Pakhtun areas declined by 93 percent but only by 11 percent in the Baloch areas. In Kalat there are seven Hindu temples but the Hindu streets are separate from Muslim streets. There are even two Hindu doctors in Kalat. The only Brahman in town is Maharaj Roshan Sharma in charge of the Shiv Mandar there. Hindu merchants still control the wholesale trade of the area. But in 1992, after the Babri mosque incident in India, it was the Pakhtun community who intruded and subjected the Hindus to violence.The Police in Balochistan is hardly organised. It keeps no record of violence against the minorities and is barred from operating anywhere outside the province’s major cities. Conditions have been bad in the Pakhtun areas of Balochistan. Anti-Hindu violence in Balochistan: The Friday Times reported in its issue of March 23-29, 2001, as follows: ‘Hundreds of Hindus have been forced to flee their homes and cross over into Sindh. Three Hindus were reported to have been killed in the town of Chaman after clashes between Hindus attempting to protect their homes and Muslim mobs in October. Temples and homes were set ablaze and property, including Hindu shops, destroyed as the growing social intolerance assumed alarming new proportions in Balochistan. In all cases, local extremist groups played a role in triggering the attacks. ‘Though the precise number of families which fled was unknown, reports suggested almost half the community of 10,000 Hindus in Lasbela had been forced to leave their homes over the year. In almost all cases, the increased activism by militant religious groups imposed new strains on relations between the majority Muslim and the Hindu communities, who had lived peacefully alongside each other for many decades. The efforts to forcibly convert the Hindus, especially female school students, had a direct role to play in violence against Hindu settlements. At least five Hindu temples were vandalised over the year, with their structures damaged and the idols and other objects of worship broken. Amidst the uproar caused by the conversion issue in Lasbela, activists of religious parties launched an assault on two old Hindu temples and threw to the ground the idols placed in them.’ At the time of partition, when sectarian riots ravaged the subcontinent, the Hindu population of Balochistan remained unharmed, mainly due to two factors. First, the major portion of Balochistan native/princely Balochistan where majority of Hindus lived was under the Khan of Kalat, the chief ruler of Kalat state, Yar Mohammad Khan, who respected indigenousness of the Hindu community. He had assured them of economic and religious freedom in case they decided to continue living in Balochistan. Second, reciprocity of mutual relationship between Muslims and Hindus, and prosperity in business encouraged them to abandon the idea of migrating to India. They live in Quetta, Kalat, Sibi, Mastung, Dahdar, Duki, Dalbandin, Chaman, and Gandawa. In Gandawa, a tiny town and newly raised headquarter of Jhall-Magsi district, they have a big temple, which is claimed to be the fifth largest Hindu temple in the subcontinent. They dwell in their own little colonies, usually not away from their temples. They belong to business class, without any major interest in education and government offices. Some of them are wealthy merchants owning large jewellery and general stores, but the majority is of middle and lower middle class businessmen with their shops/stores in the bazaars of various towns. Plight of Hindus of Sindh: Newsline(Dec 2000), pages 77-79, stated that ‘the status of the 2.7 million Hindus in Pakistan, who are largely concentrated in Sindh, does not make for a very encouraging picture. Despite the fact that the Hindus in Pakistan have generally maintained a low profile, the general attitude towards them is one of suspicion. A case in point: the editor of a Sindhi newspaper demanded a car from a Hindu businessman. When he refused the former wrote an editorial in his paper declaring that the gentleman was a RAW agent who had been supplying weapons to terrorists in the country. In another incident in Hyderabad in September, Ashok Kumar, a Hindu inspector of the Income Tax Department, along with the army monitoring team went to Sadar to collect tax return forms from shop owners. Instead of complying with the authorities, one of the shop-owners alleged that the Hindu inspector had threatened to grab him by his beard if he did not give him the form. Within no time the shopkeeper managed to muster a group of his colleagues, who shuttered their shops and took out a procession demanding that the government hand them the Hindu so that they “could teach him a lesson.” There followed a two-day strike in the city, as a result of which Ashok Kumar was not only suspended from his job, but also jailed after a case of ‘blasphemy’ was registered against him. ‘Hindus in Pakistan have faced the greatest trials when there has been tension between India and Pakistan. Says an analyst, “From the first Indo-Pak war to the demolition of the Babri mosque in Ayodhya, Hindus in Pakistan have been perceived as enemies and persecuted.” Kidnapping, extortion, and even killing are, meanwhile, common crimes perpetrated against Hindus in Sindh today. In September this year, Dr. Kanaya Lal, a Hindu eye specialist, was kidnapped from Larkana from the heart of the town. He was released after one week following a ransom payment of 5 lakh rupees (500,000 rupees). Another Hindu, Dr, Darshan Lal, was killed in Badah town in Larkana when he offered resistance to dacoits who were attempting to kidnap him from his house. At least four Hindu have been kidnapped from Sukkur during the last two months, and remain in the custody of the dacoits who have demanded hefty amounts of ransom for their release. ‘Many Hindus pay regular sums as ‘bhatta’ to different groups of extortionists merely in order to be aloud to live in peace. Pak Autos, an automobile outlet belonging to a local Hindu trader in Larkana, was torched a couple of months ago when he refused to cough up the sum demanded by activists of a political party. Another Hindu businessman disclosed that he had received a call at his Karachi residence a few months ago from an activist of a Sindh nationalist party who demanded the payment of a sizeable sum from him. He tracked down the number the caller had phoned from and discovered it belonged to an agency. When he contacted the authorities and gave them this information, he was not only refused help, he was told that “the activists of different groups are important to the establishment, while the Hindus are of no use,” thereby implying that he should not expect any assistance. Says the businessman “Instead of concentrating on business, most Hindus in Pakistan are expending their energies in developing their PR with the authorities and entertaining various influentials to try and build up a support base for themselves.” Dalits of Sindh want justice: The Scheduled Castes Federation of Pakistan has a website which addresses a petition to the President of Pakistan asking for a redressal of the plight of the Dalits. It a flattering website as it talks more about Islam than about Hinduism. ‘In Pakistan, the Dalits face different issues. Since they are part of a tiny minority that is 5 per cent of country’s total population, and due to also lack of education and literacy, they continue to stick to different forms of Hinduism whatever their half-literate Gurus impart them. Caste Hindus continue their domination only in southern part of Pakistan, especially former Mirpurkhas division, where more than one million Dalits dwell as landless peasants and labourers. The Caste Hindus, though small in numbers, dominate the minority politics through support of their convert relatives and government functionaries. The incidents of atrocities and caste-based discriminations on Dalits are increasing day by day in Tharparkar - a district where 35 per cent people belong to different Dalit communities among a million people - because of growing awareness and assertiveness of the Dalits. Several hundred Dalit employees of Dalit communities were transferred to far-flung areas under different obnoxious pretexts. Cases were initiated against the Dalit political activists. Their rural folks were threatened and even disallowed to graze their livestock on government lands called Gauchar. ‘Dalits also suffer in many instances from de facto disenfranchisement. During elections 2002, those unpersuaded by typical electioneering were routinely threatened and beaten by a pro-government political party strongmen in order to compel them to vote for certain candidates. Already under the thumb of local landlords and police officials, Dalit villagers who do not comply had been victimized, beaten, and harassed. In Tharparkar, violence against Dalits is normally treated as a very minor and marginal issue, even by the law-enforcement machinery, whether be it police, the prosecution, or the medico-legal fraternity or often even the judiciary. Non-registration of crimes against Dalits is one of the main problem in Tharparkar. Political influence over the police, and caste, class, religion and gender biases are rampant. It is extremely difficult for helpless Dalits to file complaints, particularly against the powerful individuals and or perpetrators. The theft of livestock of Dalits in Tharparkar is rampant as police never registers any such case. These are very few examples as to how Dalits are dealt with if they display an act to show equality. Hundreds of the incidents of caste discrimination go unreported. When Muslims have a problem in India the Lotastaanis are first to start screaming from the Roof Tops. Has the Government of India ever done anything for Lotastaan’s UNFORTUNATE Hindus? Cheers furious.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 14 2004, 12:48 AM
As we do not have a humour thread am posting this here and on the “Energy Sector Thread” : pakee.gif KARACHI: Chairman Gwadar port Implementation Authority, Abkar Ali.A.Pinsani has said that China will get crude oil from Iran and Africa through Gwadar port. He told Dow Jones Wires that this will save China its costs on the imports of the crude oil. Pinsani maintained that the oil would be transported through railways to China. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: SSridhar May 14 2004, 03:17 AM
Peregrine, One more target to practice for the brave rocket-firing inhabitants of Balochistan. Long live their tribe.
Posted by: Peregrine May 14 2004, 01:54 PM
SSridhar : You have E-"Hot" Mail. BTW : The Lotastaanis are out of their depth with the statement Pinsani maintained that the oil would be transported through railways to China. Either that or the Chinese have really sold the Lotastaanis "A Line". pakee.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren May 14 2004, 11:26 PM
Cross posting: ---------------------- THE NEW INDIAN GOVT AND NATIONAL SECURITY : LIKELY POLICIES--PART I B.RAMAN Shri K.Natwar Singh, former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan, Shri M.K.Rasgotra, former Indian Ambassador to France and Nepal, former Indian High Commissioner to the UK and former Indian Foreign Secretary,Shri J.N.Dixit, former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan and Sri Lanka, former Indian Ambassador to Afghanistan and former Indian Foreign Secretary,Shri Mani Shankara Iyer, former Indian Consul-General in Karachi who was one of the most popular Indian diplomats to have served in Karachi and who has a close personal friendship with Mrs.Benazir Bhutto, former Pakistani Prime Minister, and Mr.Khurshid Mahmood Kasuri, the present Pakistani Foreign Minister, from his student days in the UK, and Shri M.K.Narayanan, former Director, Intelligence Bureau, are expected to play an important role in the evolution and implementation of the foreign and national security policies of the new Government led by the Congress (I). 2.Whatever posts they may occupy in the new Government, they would bring to them an unparalleled wealth of expertise and experience the like of which the outgoing Government headed by Shri A.B.Vajpayee did not have. Shri Natwar Singh, Shri Dixit and Shri Mani Shankara Iyer had served in Pakistan in very difficult years during the military rule of Zia ul-Haq and in the years under Benazir Bhutto thereafter and understand better than anybody did in the Vajpayee Government the importance of good relations with Pakistan and the difficulty of improving relations with it so long as the military held the reins of power in the country and a genuinely elected democratic Government was not restored to power. They have first hand and inside knowledge of the role played by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan in fomenting insurgencies and terrorism in different parts of India. 3. The Congress (I) has always had a wide network of contacts at the individual and organisational levels with political leaders of Pakistan in Sindh, the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and Balochistan, which it had always carefully nursed and nourished without worrying about the impact which such relations could have on India's relations with Pakistan's military leadership. When the Congress (I) was in power before 1996, many political leaders of Pakistan used to come openly to India and meet the leaders of the Congess (I). Many of these relationships date from the days of India's independence struggle against the British, during which Mahatma Gandhi and the Indian National Congress (INC) were more popular than the Pakistan Muslim League (PML) in the NWFP and Balochistan. More Pakistani politicl leaders attended the cremation of Rajiv Gandhi in May 1991 than leaders from other countries of South Asia. 4. The BJP-led Government's policy towards Pakistan lacked consistency and was often erratic (kabi garam, kabi naram--sometimes hot, sometimes soft) due to the following reasons: Lack of expertise on Pakistan either at the political or bureaucratic level. Lack of a network of contacts at the political level with different political formations in Pakistan. The proximity of many political leaders of Pakistan with the Congress (I) made them suspect in the eyes of the BJP and it, therefore, kept a distance from them. The fact that the BJP leaders had not played a very active role in India's independence struggle created complexes in the BJP's relationship with the leaders of the NWFP and Balochistan, many of whom are the progenies of the giants of the independence struggle. Consequently, the only active relationship at the political level which the BJP had was with Mr.Nawaz Sharif and some Muslim League leaders of Punjab, who had in the past been strong critics of the Congress (I) because of its perceived proximity to Benazir. Nawaz Sharif, a creation of Zia ul-Haq, enjoyed better relationship with Shri A.B.Vajpayee than with Shri Narasimha Rao, the former Indian Prime Minister, despite the fact that he had met Rao more number of times than Vajpayee. A reluctance on the part of the outgoing Government to admit that the Congress (I) had better intellectual assets vis-a-vis Pakistan, the like of which it did not have and hence it was necessary to regularly consult it on Pakistan. 5. The policies of the previous Congress(I) Governments relating to Pakistan were characterised by the following factors: A realisation of the importance of keeping the lines of communications open with the Government of Pakistan at different levels, whoever was in power, the political or the military leadership. Examples: the periodic, well-structured meetings between the Foreign and Home Secretaries,officials in charge of border security and narcotics control of the two countries. The Home Secretaries used to be assisted in these meetings by senior officials of the intelligence communities of the two countries, officers of para-military organisations etc. Rajiv Gandhi also experimented with meetings between senior intelligence officials, a practice that was continued by Shri Chandrasekhar. Over the years after the exit of Rajiv Gandhi from power and particularly since the BJP-led coalition came to power in 1998, these meetings were dispensed with. Even if these meetings did not serve any other purpose, they at least enabled senior officials of the two countries to know and judge each other in flesh and blood instead of through media and intelligence reports. A realisation of the importance of a regular dialogue between the Governmental leaders of the two countries. Examples: Rajiv Gandhi's bilateral meetings with Benazir and Narasinha Rao's meetings with Nawaz Sharif on the margins of regional and international conferences. Even in the worst days of Indo-Pakistan relations, leaders of Congress (I) Governments did not avoid meetings with their counterparts in Pakistan and always maintained a certain civility in personal relationships. A realisation of the importance of maintaining their network of personal contacts with the political leaders of Pakistan even during years of military dictatorship, without worrying about the likely impact of such contacts on the minds of the military leadership. A realisation that India has to deal with whoever was in power in Islamabad, whether the political or military leadership, and, hence, should not allow the fact of a military dictatiorship being in power in Pakistan to distort its policies towards Pakistan. The importance of a robust counter-terrorism policy. This policy had the following aspects: (a). A determination not to concede demands made by terrorists through intimidation. There were over a dozen incidents of hijacking of aircraft and kidnapoping of prominent personalities by the Sikh and Kashmiri terrorists when the Congress (I) was in power. It did not concede any of their demands. The only deviation from this policy occured during the occupation of the Hazratbal holy shrine in Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) in October,1993, by a group of Pakistan-based jihadi terrorists, who were allowed to escape to Pakistan instead of being arrested in order to protect the shrine from any damage. (b).A vigorous campaign against Pakistan on its sponsorship of terrorism in order to make the international community aware of the insidious role of Pakistan. ©.Policies and actions meant to convey a message to Pakistan in no uncertain terms that its use of terrorism against India will not be cost free.(d).Keeping the doors always open for a political dialogue even with Pakistan-aided insurgents and terrorists once they realised that violence was untenable. Nagaland and Mizoram are good examples of the success of this policy. To Congress (I) and to it alone should go the credit for having effectively dealt with terrorism in Punjab without ever conceding any of the demands of the terrorists.(e). Not to link Pakistan's sponsorship of terrorism in India to the question of a dialogue between the two countries. Talk-talk, hit-hit was the policy. A determination not to concede to the USA any locus standi in matters relating to the political aspects of Indo-Pakistan relations such as the future of J&K. An emphasis on the primordial importance of the Shimla Agreement while negotiating with Pakistan. 6.It is expected that the policy of the new Government led by the Congress (I) towards Pakistan would be marked by the following features: Continuance of the dialogue process initiated by the outgoing Government. Efforts to restore the Shimla Agreement to its primoridal position. This could create difficulties. The policies of Gen.Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's military dictator, ever since he seized power in October,1999, have been directed towards consigning the Shima Agreement of 1972 negotiated by Indira Gandhi and Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto and the Lahore Accord of 1999 negotiated by Vajpayee and Nawaz to the dustbin of history and lay down fresh parameters determined by the military to govern future relations between the two countries. It was the opposition of Vajpayee to Musharraf's attempts to exlude all references to the Shimla and Lahore Accords in any final statement which led to the break-down of the Agra summit in 2001. A careful perusal of the statements, which came out of the Islamabad summit in January last, gave a worrisome impression as if Vajpayee had agreed to a dilution of the importance of the Shimla Agreement under US pressure in return for Musharraf's assurance on the question of stoppage of support to terrorism, an assurance which has not yet been implemented. It remains to be seen whether the Congress (I)-led Government would go along with the Islamabad formulations and, if not, what effect it would have on the dialogue. A revamping of the counter-terrorism policy in order to give it some of the teeth which it had lost under the outgoing Government. Vigorous follow-up action on nuclear confidence-building measures. Avoidance of unnecessary rhetoric on nuclear and non-nuclear military issues, which could create difficulties in bilateral relations. A hard-headed approach devoid of emotions and complexes and based more on substance than on style, bombast and spin, which became the characteristic of the outgoing Government's policy. Greater transparency and readiness to consult the opposition and associate it with the policy-making. 7. All the parties belonging to the new ruling coalition broadly agree on the parameters of the policy towards Pakistan and hence this is unlikely to create any discord inside the coalition. 8. Annexed are relevant extracts from the Congress (I)'s policy document titled ISSUES BEFORE THE NATION---SECURITY, DEFENCE AND FOREIGN POLICY. (To be continued) (The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Distinguished Fellow and Convenor, Observer Research Foundation (ORF), Chennai chapter. E-Mail: ) ANNEXURE: RELEVANT EXTRACTS "The BJP/NDA Government’s policies related to Pakistan have been a saga of contradictions and confusion. Whether in Lahore or at Agra, the BJP/NDA Government showed a singular lack of advance preparation leading to disastrous consequences. Because of this lack of foresight, Lahore was followed by Kargil and Agra led to a fresh phase of accelerated tensions in Indo-Pak relations. The BJP/NDA Government completely failed in containing and countering terrorism sponsored by Pakistan. "The BJP/NDA Government’s Pakistan policy has been full of contradictory extremisms and ambiguities. Prime Minister Vajpayee’s trip to Lahore was followed by Pakistan’s perfidy at Kargil. Despite this, General Musharraf was invited to the Agra Summit, which was a fiasco. This was followed by the terrorist attack on Parliament, resulting in Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee declaring: “Now India would fight the Pakistani menace to the finish.” A few months later, all of a sudden a peace initiative with Pakistan was undertaken. The claim of the Prime Minister that normalization of relations with Pakistan is his most important achievement is ludicrous. The fact is that the Prime Minister and his government have lacked clarity, consistency and conviction while dealing with Pakistan. "There has been no clarity in the BJP/NDA Government’s Jammu & Kashmir policy. At one time, its thinking was that the principal problem in J&K was Pakistan-sponsored cross-border terrorism and proxy war and that there could be no meaningful discussions on the subject unless cross-border terrorism was stopped. Yet both at Lahore and more recently at Islamabad, the BJP/NDA Government has agreed to discuss the territorial status of J&K with Pakistan. As regards talks with diverse shades of public opinion in J&K itself, once again there has been no consistency or transparency in approach. From time to time, the BJP/NDA Government has appointed a series of special envoys to discuss the future of J&K with various political groups. However, the country has never been taken into confidence with regard to their mandate and terms of reference. No wonder, the atmosphere of serious discussions has been missing and talks with separatist groups like the Hurriyat have not made any headway. "Finally, the BJP/NDA Government has deliberately and mischievously used tensions with Pakistan to polarise our own society and call into question the patriotic credentials of a very large number of our countrymen and women. The Deputy Prime Minister is on record as having said that only the BJP can make peace with Pakistan because that would make it acceptable to the religious majority in our country. This is a dangerous and pernicious argument and is an extension of the “two-nation” theory first put forward by the RSS almost eight decades back. The fact is that it is the Jan Sangh/BJP/RSS that has always stymied serious efforts made in the past to bring about reconciliation with Pakistan (and China). This obstructionist past cannot be disowned. "Terrorism and insurgency have emerged as serious security concerns in several parts of India. The activities of extremist groups in the North-East and in the tribal regions of Central India pose a serious challenge. The Congress will implement a comprehensive multi-faceted strategy to cope effectively with the twin challenges of terrorism and insurgency. The national security network will be modernised and streamlined, paying particular attention to intelligence gathering, respect for fundamental human rights and sustainable social and economic development which reinforces successful security operations. "The Congress will give particular attention to fashioning a stable, working, cooperative relationship with Pakistan under the framework of the historic Shimla Agreement of 1972 and subsequent agreements and confidence-building measures initiated by later Congress governments well upto 1996, while remaining alert about India’s defence requirement, and being firm in responding to any threats emanating from Pakistan. "Management of India’s relations with other nuclear weapons powers is an important task, given India’s nuclear weapons and missiles capacities. Special attention would be given to enhance India’s credibility as a responsible nuclear weapons power and for forging equations with other such powers, to stabilize the international security environment. The Congress will take the initiative to have credible, transparent and verifiable confidence-building measures in treaty form to minimize the risk of nuclear and missile conflict with Pakistan and China. While doing this, the Congress remains committed to an agreement on a time-bound non-discriminatory international agreement on elimination of weapons of mass destruction. The Congress would participate in consultations and negotiations to put in place effective international agreements for this purpose. "The Congress considers international terrorism a phenomenon of high and critical concern. The Congress will support all efforts at international action to counter this menace in any form. "The Congress will be firm and decisive and prompt in responding to terrorist violence structured against India. "The fundamental objective of India’s foreign policy would be to safeguard India’s security and vital strategic interests. The endeavour would be to form a national foreign policy based on informed national consensus, particularly on important issues of development, defence, nuclear issues and the requirements of a stable and secure international order."
Posted by: Mudy May 14 2004, 11:50 PM
B.Raman - He himself was Vajapayee personal security adviser and first two years he was actively involved in isssue relating to Pakistan. Now his tone is different.
Posted by: Peregrine May 15 2004, 01:08 PM pakee.gif GUJRAT: Thirteen persons were killed and eight more seriously wounded in an armed clash between two groups in Madina Sayedan area of Gujrat on Saturday evening. DPO Gujrat Khuwaja Munawar informed Geo that a minor clash over the matter of livestock had taken place few days back. However the two groups had agreed for a settlement at a Dera on Saturday in the presence of elders of the village. The matter was settled on the interference of notables of the area, however as soon a group left the Dera the opponents opened fire at them as a result 13 persons were killed and eight injured. The DPO said that the victims belong to different families and villages and and none of them was female. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren May 15 2004, 02:28 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ May 15 2004, 02:50 AM)
B.Raman - He himself was Vajapayee personal security adviser and first two years he was actively involved in isssue relating to Pakistan. Now his tone is different.
Mudy, He has written some articles taking swipe at ABV and LKA indirectly. On rediff see if you can find a article titled "Ignorance is Bliss" by him. I even wrote to him at that time (about 2 years ago during Nadismarg masacare) asking him as to how come great ideas come to babus only after retirement wink.gif I don't blame him for not writing back. Even in India Abroad he had a full page article on how the GoI is on high decibles as far as terrorism is concerned but spending ZERO hours in the entire year discussing security concerns.
Posted by: Mudy May 15 2004, 03:17 PM
B.Raman has given clean chit to Congress. In first place Congress popped up Bhinderwala, in one meeting Indira shared stage with Bhiderwala, later when her purposed served she dumped him, which was too late, and these misguided started taking Pakistan help. Same happen in Kashmir, after multiple election rigging supported by Congress created atmosphere for agitation which was hijacked by Pakistan. Yes, congress is good in creating and dismantling terrorist. Thousand of youth died because of short sightness of Indira. One can't compare NDA with Congress, They have not created any terrorist group or atmosphere, what they were doing was cleaning up of mess created by Congress. First time in Indian History, J&K had fair election which is an achievement. Since 1972, congress was in power till 1994, they could have solved boder problem, they kept it is as burning issue, which can be popped up as and when required. B.Raman is good for cure but not for prevention. I can understand he will be happy if RAW can go back inside Pakistan and start old business. What he is saying completely biased? World order is changing and he is still beating old drum.
Posted by: Peregrine May 17 2004, 01:04 AM
user posted image Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 18 2004, 04:35 PM
Posted by: Peregrine May 19 2004, 02:09 AM WASHINGTON: A recent exercise undertaken at a major Washington think tank has concluded that despite the willingness of India and Pakistan to resume their dialogue, the national strategies of the two sides are in collision. The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace asked two South Asian experts, Pakistani journalist and writer Husain Haqqani and Ashley J Tellis, both associated with Carnegie as senior scholars, to study the chances of durable peace between India and Pakistan with particular reference to the ongoing peace process. The results of their investigation have now been printed under the title ‘India and Pakistan: is peace real this time?’ According to Carnegie, the two scholars “possess unsurpassed expertise on Pakistan and India.” While both of them agree that the current discussions between the two South Asian neighbours are “a tremendous step in the right direction,” Mr Haqqani is quick to point out that “a willingness to talk does not necessarily signal willingness to compromise on the real issue requiring resolution.” Mr Tellis agrees when he observes, “I cannot escape the feeling that, at the end of the day, the national strategies of the two sides are in collision.” According to Mr Tellis, a fundamental stumbling block is that “Pakistan seeks negotiations to alter the status quo, whereas India accepts negotiations primarily to ratify the same.” The territorial status of Jammu and Kashmir, both argue, is at the heart of the friction. While Pakistan has stated that it will not permit terrorism, it wants to link this step to substantive talks about the future of Kashmir. Mr Haqqani is of the view that not having the capability to compel India to abandon any of the territories under its control, Pakistan will likely have to accept the current territorial status quo. The challenge for India, then, is to “come up with something that will make the Pakistanis feel that they are getting a better deal than they would have if they were not going through with the process,” he says. In light of the complexity of the issues and the great need for subtlety, both Mr Tellis and Mr Haqqani agree that best role for the United States is that of “outside encourager.” The peace process will only succeed when New Delhi and Islamabad - and not outsiders -conclude that they must accomplish something of value. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine May 20 2004, 03:31 PM pakee.gif Channel 4 has pulled a documentary about social workers in Bradford from its schedule after police warned it could increase racial tension. Due to be broadcast on Thursday, Edge of the City followed social workers and West Yorkshire Police feared it would increase community tension in Bradford ahead of local and European elections. The channel said it would show the "important" programme at a later date. Grooming Filmed over the course of a year with the co-operation of Bradford Social Services, Edge of the City focused on "the darker side of urban life in Britain". "These are the neighbours we don't want to know whose problems we don't want to see," read the show's publicity. As well as following a young offender, a "fiercely independent" elderly man and a disabled couple, the documentary examined the area of child abuse known as "grooming". It reported that white girls as young as 11 were being sexually abused by Asian men who encouraged their dependency on drugs over a period of time. In July 2001 Bradford was the scene of some of the worst race riots Britain has seen for 20 years. West Yorkshire Police said 326 officers were injured during the disturbances, leading to two stabbings, 219 arrests and an estimated £27m worth of damage. 'Public disorder' Channel 4 said police feared the new documentary "would increase community tensions in Bradford" ahead of elections on 10 June, "with the risk that it would lead to public disorder". "In these exceptional circumstances, and based on the police's risk assessment on the ground, Channel 4 as a responsible broadcaster has agreed to the police's request to postpone the broadcast until a later date," the channel said in a statement. "Channel 4 believes Edge of the City is an important, well-researched and produced documentary film. "It is in the public interest that this film be shown and we will be broadcasting it later in the year." The documentary was replaced on Thursday with a repeated episode of Faking It. Time and time again it has been pointed out and proved to the Police Authorities that they should not use the term Asians as Indians, Sri Lankans etc for the unlawful acts by the people of mainly Lotastaani Origin-Ancestry. furious.gif Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine May 22 2004, 09:40 AM
Whatever happened to these stacks of dollars, the poverty level has been increasing in the country. In 1980, it was less than 20 per cent, in 1986-87 it went up to 29 per cent. In 2001 the Asian Development Bank put the poverty ratio at 50 per cent.
pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine May 22 2004, 04:11 PM clap.gif QUETTA: The exchange of firing took place between unknown people in Sui and Frontier Core* corps creating a tense atmosphere in the region, here on Saturday. The incident took place between the Friday and Saturday night when some unknown people fired rockets, Frontier Core* encounter the attack with heavy firing. 20 inch Qatar pipeline supplying gas to Punjab burst as a result of this exchange of fire. According to details these unidentified fighters also targets the camps of Frontier Core*. pakee.gif * : Lotastaani Spelling Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 22 2004, 08:02 PM By Ayesha Javed Akram LAHORE: If you were not looking, you could easily miss it. The only thing that will guide you to the great Hindu god Krishna’s home in Lahore is a meek black signboard on an unassuming yellow building. There is no grand 100-step staircase leading to a temple in the clouds; you have to squeeze your way through a snaking alley if you want to reach Krishna Mandir. But for all its humble trappings, this three-room temple is the hub of Hinduism in the Punjab. Pandit Kashi Ram, in his thirties, says this is the oldest mandir in Lahore. “It dates back to the time when the river Ravi used to flow through the city,” he says while showing me around, which doesn’t take long because there simply isn’t that much to show. The mandir can be best described as minimal with only two small cubicles dedicated to worship. Devotees have to make do with photographs of the statues or moortis; there isn’t any place for the real thing. It is no wonder then that Hindus have to trek to Peshawar and Karachi for weddings and larger religious gathering. It becomes a real test of their faith on religious festivals like diwali and holi, when up to four hundred of them from all over the province flock to these three rooms. Most estimates put the Hindu community in Lahore at no more than a few hundred, which is no wonder why their demands are rarely heard. Some time back, the walls of the mandir were pushed in, leading to an even tighter fit. For many years now, there have been appeals from the Hindu community for funds to improve the mandir but it was only last month that their prayers were answered and this appeal was finally accepted. A delighted Pandit Kashi Ram said Rs 1.2 million has been allocated for the improvement of the mandir, which will involve converting the three, little rooms into one big hall. He is also hopeful that the inflow of funds will lead to better pay for those who work at there. Who knows, we could even get air-conditioning, he says. Minorities have long learned to keep a low profile in Pakistan. A capricious political climate and fluctuating public sentiment mean that it is safer to neither be seen nor heard too much. This could in part explain Pandit Kashi Ram’s eagerness to praise his neighbours. “They assist us during our religious festivals and we invite them to all major gatherings at the mandir,” he says. But one look around the place paints a very different picture. The walls of the mandir are repeatedly pasted with posters and spoilt with graffiti. When I press him to speak about this, he admits that the first thing he has to do every morning is scrape the posters off the walls. And even though he has put up notices, cars are always parked in front of the mandir. He shrugs his shoulders. “If I ask them nicely they do sometimes move them,” he says. And so while he insists that the mandir’s Muslim neighbours harbour no hard feelings, police have to be deployed there every time there is a gathering of even a hundred people because, as Pandit Kashi Ram admits himself, “kabhi bhi kuch ho sakta hai” (anything can happen any time). Sources at the Derasahib Gurdwara say that while the Hindu community in Lahore is much happier under the current government “they are still scared.” If this is the case, then the Muslims of Lahore need to do much more before they can completely win the confidence of their Hindu neighbours, who continue to brave it out for their bhagwaan.
Posted by: rhytha May 22 2004, 10:37 PM
Fiction - Let's nuke New York Let's nuke New York The Freedom at Midnight team is back. In a new novel, Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins tell the story of Imad Mugniyeh, a Lebanese terrorist to whom Saddam Hussein entrusts his design for a nuclear bomb. Mugniyeh’s search for uranium brings him to Osama bin Laden’s cave ... IT was, indeed, exactly 48 hours later that Imad Mugniyeh was summoned back to Osama bin Laden’s presence in the same cave in which their first meeting had taken place. Looking at Osama, he understood instantly just how important this meeting was going to be. The Islamic leader was wearing a brand new turban, its white folds so pristine they almost glowed. His beard had been freshly trimmed and the streaks of gray which usually marked it had been carefully dyed. Even the most devout amongst us, it occurred to Mugniyeh, is not immune to the stirrings of a little masculine vanity. The two men awaited their guests just far enough inside the entrance of Osama’s secret cave, so that no prowling American Predator spy vehincle could catch a glimpse of them. Exactly on schedule, Osama’s two guests arrived on a mule back escorted by two Pathan warriors, members of a tribe to whose chieftain Osama paid a regular and generous protection fee. The first man to dismount was short and slim but carried himself with the erect posture of a military man. The second visitor had a rather melancholy expression, and a neatly trimmed moustache. Osama rushed to greet both men. From the warmth of their embraces, Mugniyeh understood instantly that they were close and dear friends, that the hugs they exchanged were not ritual gestures but the manifestations of deep and genuine affection. Osama led the pair to Mugniyeh to introduce him. The shorter man was Major General Habib Bol, the former commander of Pakistan’s elite ISI, Inter-Services Intelligence, the secretive organisation whose responsibilities included safeguarding the storehouses in which the warheads of Pakistan’s nuclear force were hidden. His name, if not his face, were familiar, indeed, to the Lebanese terrorist. What Mugniyeh did not know, of course, was that Bol was considered by the CIA to be the most dangerous man in Pakistan. And yet, for 10 years, Bol had fought with courage and determination alongside the CIA’s operatives in their war against the Russians in Afghanistan. They had baptised him the ‘‘BLG’’ — Brave Little General — for both his size and his valour in battle. BUT for Bol, his American colleagues had become the ultimate betrayers in October 1990 when, with the Red Army defeated, the US government had imposed sanctions on Pakistan for its nuclear programme, a programme to which the US had firmly closed its eyes during the decade in which Pakistan’s cooperation in fighting the Russians in Afghanistan was essential. To one of those colleagues, Bol had become like ‘‘a woman scorned’’, so Bol’s fury at his former allies had no limits. His son, with CIA help, had been enrolled at Texas A&M and Bol promptly pulled him out. No son of his was going to be schooled in a university of the Great Satan. He quit the ISI and joined the Islamic Extremist movement, the UTN, the Umma Tameer e-Nun, the Reconstruction of the Muslim Umma. Under its screen, he had organised a series of clandestine cells composed of ISI officers, including some whose responsibilites were guarding the nation’s nuclear arms. The second man was Abdul Sharif Ahmad, a brilliant nuclear physicist. Mugniyeh recognised his name instantly. Together with a colleague, Abdul Khader Khan, he was recognised as the man responsible for building Pakistan’s atomic bomb, a kind of Pakistani Einstein. Dr Strangelove? Meet jihad OSAMA led them into the cave where a meagre but well-intentioned welcoming banquet awaited them. Mugniyeh could not suppress a smile at how tidy, how well ordered the cave now was, compared to the chaos he’d noted on his arrival. The notebooks, cartridge clips, computer discs had all been packed away and kerosene lamps, not candles, illuminated the place. Osama, ever the good host, waited until his guests had eaten and mint tea and coffee had been served, before formally opening their discussion. ‘‘My brothers,’’ he said ‘‘I asked you to join me here today because I firmly believe the time has come for our jihad to rise above the guerilla tactics we have employed in the past. Brave martyrs driving trucks filled with high explosives into the barracks and embassies of the Indfidel, the markets of the Jews, placing bombs in the discotheques of their decadent youths, even flying jets into the skyscrapers of the Great Satan, were acts of courage and nobility, but we must escalate our struggle now to a new dimension.’’ ‘‘Today,’’ he continued ‘‘the jihad must employ those very weapons the Infidel’s scientists developed to impose their rule on our universe. The Americans are embarked on a war of extermination against the peoples of the umma, our Islamic community. Look at what they did to Iraq. Look at how they help the Jews enslave our brothers in Palestine. And what have our leaders done? Nothing!’’ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ‘Bravo,’ General Bol declared. ‘But we must make sure that until the bomb is on a ship bound for the US, it stays as much as possible on Indian soil ... We must pass the bomb in one of the smugglers’ camel caravans that slip across the Rajasthan desert ... All we need to do is have a team of Al Qaeda meet them in Jaisalmer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He sighed as if to underscore the enormity of that failure. ‘‘The Koran ordered us to give Muslims the strongest means of defence. Our leader’s failure to do so is an act of treason, a rebellion against the very injunction of Allah. I say let this (George W.) Bush suffer the horrible punishment of God for what he has done. We must take revenge upon him. We must strip him of his sense of security and stability.’’ Osama paused, took a sip of his coffee, a calculated, dramatic hiatus as he drew towards the climax of his little oration. ‘‘Thanks to the inspired work of our great brother Abdul Sharif Ahmad and his respected colleague Dr Abdul Khader Khan, the Sword of God is ready to be placed in our avenging hands. Ahmad and I have spoken often of this. He believes, as do I, that the bombs hidden in our arsenals in Kahuta are not Pakistani bombs. They are Islamic bombs. ‘‘They belong to the community of the Faithful, the umma. They must become the weapons of we, the wretched weak, to use against the powerful tyrants. Is that not so, dear friend?’’ Ahmad nodded solemnly. ‘‘Osama,’’ injected the ISI’s ex Major General Habib Bol ‘‘our missiles, perfected thanks to our North Korean friends, can deliver our atomic warheads to Madras but not Washington. We do not possess the missiles or the aircraft that can threaten America.’’ ‘‘But,’’ protested Osama ‘‘surely our nuclear arms can destroy their brothers in Israel, can they not?’’ ‘‘Of course, they could do that,’’ Bol agreed. ‘‘Our newest missiles can reach Israel with no problem at all.’’ ‘‘My brothers.’’ It was Ahmad. ‘‘I agree with Osama when he says ours is an Islamic bomb, not a Pakistani bomb. When Prime Minister (Zulfikar Ali) Bhutto first asked me to work on it in a secret meeting in his office in December 1974, I immediately saw it as an Islamic bomb, not as did he, as a means of defending ourselves against Indian aggression. I thought ‘the Americans have the bomb. The Jews have the bomb. The Chinese have the bomb. Why is it we, the Muslims, are the only people forbidden to have it?’ ‘‘Today, thanks in large part to my work, we now have 47 bombs in our nuclear arsenals. Certainly, we could fire six of them on Israel and feel sure at least three would reach their targets, Israel is geographically a very small nation and three bombs would destory it, leaving us all the arms we need to defend ourselves against India.’’ Smiles came about as often to Osama bin Laden’s ascetic features as snow does to the tropics, but those words brought a radiant regard onto them. ‘‘There, my brothers’’ he said ‘‘is our answer.’’ ‘‘No,’’ Ahmad replied ‘‘it is not. Israel’s ncuclear force is larger than ours, larger then India’s, larger even than England’s. Most of their bombs are fitted onto their Jericho missile in hardened underground silos in the Judean Hills. They will survive our attack. Our bombs may kill three million Isaraelis but some will have lived to fire those missiles on us. They will eradicate our nation and kill 40 million of us. I built my Islamic nuclear bomb to defend our nation, not to destroy it.’’ ISI hand, card of death “No one in this cave loathes the Americans more than I do,’’ declared General Bol, the ex ISI officer, branded Pakistan’s most dangerous man by the CIA, ‘‘but as a soldier I understand and accept Ahmad’s position. That is not the way to use the great weapon he and his fellow scientists have put at our disposal.’’ ‘‘Then what is?’’ Osama bin Laden asked. ‘‘Are you are aware, my brother, of the clandestine organisation I have created inside the officer’s ranks of the ISI, ‘Fighters for Islam’, men who share our ideals and realise, as do you, the need for jihad in these terrible times?’’Osama nodded. ‘‘When the Americans set out to destroy the Taliban, that traitor (Pervez) Musharraf sold our country to them for their war. At the same time, he took our nuclear devices from their storehouse in Kahuta and dispensed them to six new, secret locations. ‘‘One of them is not far from here. The ISI officer in charge is one of my Fighters for Islam. So, too, is the officer in charge of the facility in Chasma, where the detonation sets are kept.’’ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ‘My brothers. ’ It was Ahmad. ‘I agree with Osama when he says ours is an Islamic bomb, not a Pakistani bomb. When Bhutto first asked me to work on it in a secret meeting in his office in 1974, I immediately saw it as an Islamic bomb.’ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bol reflected for a moment on what he was about to say. ‘‘Perhaps I can convince the officer in charge at Tikrim Mir to let us spirit a device out of his facility, in the middle of the night. He will see that nothing in the records indicates it has gone. We will take it to a location near Chasma where we can secretly equip it with a detonation test. Surely you, with your international network and skills, can find a way to smuggle it to an appropriate target somewhere in America where we can detonate it right in the Great Satan’s heart. ‘‘The Americans will not know where it came from, so they will not be able to retaliate against us because they won’t know who to retaliate against or where to strike.’’ A glimmer of understanding flickered on Osama bin Laden’s face as he glanced towards Ahmad. The scientist displayed no emotion. Ahmad, as bin Laden knew, was a man who loved poetry and flowers, but hopefully, his hatred of the Americans was such that killing a million or so amongst them with one of his bombs would not disturb him. He looked next across the carpet to Mugniyeh. ‘‘I am sure that amongst your followers are brave young men who crave death so that eternal life will be given unto them as martyrs. Men who, with the help of my organisation and our knowledge of interanational customs and travel regulations, would be prepared to deliver this weapon to the land of the Great Satan.’’ At his words Mugniyeh’s thoughts went to the horrors of the Ain el Hilweh Palestinian refugee camp in southern Lebanon. It was, by far, the most horrible of those horrible camps, a sinkhole festering with hatred and despair, where hope was an illusion, not a promise. ‘‘Yes, my brother, and they will be people who can speak fluent English and glide among the Americans as one of them, believers who have spent their lives studying and preparing for the opportunity God has never given them — until now. May I ask how large this device will be?’’ Bomb in the dishwasher OSAMA looked at Ahmad. Although very few people knew it, he, like Dr Khan, was a member of an extremist movement called Laskar-e-Tibi, Soldiers of the Cause, an organisation closely allied to Osama’s Al Qaeda. ‘‘Not large at all,’’ Ahmad said after a moment’s reflection. ‘‘What I could do is go to Chasma where no one will be surpised, of course, to see me. General Bol and I will find an appropriate place where I can connect the bomb to its detonation device. ‘‘I think that what we must do is marry the detonation system to a mobile telephone of which you, brother Osama, will have the number. I can set the detonator so that it will only activate the bomb in response to a telephone call to that number. That way no matter what happens, the bomb will not explode unless the secret number has been called.’’ ‘‘The entire device,’’ he concluded ‘‘will weigh somewhat more than 50 kg — 100 pounds. I will pack it into a large wooden crate like the kind that would contain, for example, a dishwashing machine. You will be able to transport it without difficulty, on camel’s back.’’ Osama and Mugniyeh listened, fascinated, indicating their approval of the scheme with enthusiastic nods of their heads. The idea of moving an atomic bomb by camel’s back was intriguing but before they could question it, Bol spoke up. Annihilate America, via Jaisalmer “BRAVO,’’ he declared. ‘‘But shipping the bomb directly to Karachi to put it on a US bound freighter would present us with a double risk. The first is that between Chasma and Karachi it might somehow be intercepted by CIA agents or Pakistani police in their way. From that, the second risk — the Americans would then be able to determine that the bomb came from our stores and that would be a catastrophe. ‘‘We must make sure that until the bomb is on a ship bound for the US, it stays as much as possible on Indian soil. Since the border crossings between our two nations are all officially closed, we must pass the bomb in one of the smugglers’ camel caravans that regularly slip across the Rajasthan desert. Those smugglers pay off the police on both sides of the border and nobody ever bothers them. All we need to do is have a team of Al Qaeda men meet them in Jaisalmer.’’ ‘‘And after Jaisalmer?’’ asked Mugniyeh whose knowledge of Indian geography was limited. ‘‘From there, my men will take over. They will be responsible for finding a way to smuggle it into the United States. If, by any ill chance, the Americans somehow manage to find it, they’ll blame the Indians, not us.’’ ‘‘Where do you propose to explode it?’’ Ahmad asked Osama. ‘‘I would like to see it placed in New York. New York is the symbol of everything we all loathe in America, their power, their greedy, grasping hands strangling us financially, their corrupt, decadent television an entertainment industry. And, after all, there are more Jews in New York than there are in Tel Aviv. ‘‘You told me in Kabul that the most awesome aspect of a nuclear explosion in the heart it generates, killing people for miles around the blast, setting thousands of fires. So be it. Let us burn New York. Reduce that evil citadel to ashes with the scourge of fire.’’ Plan B. Blackmail “SIDI — sir’’ It was Mugniyeh who had found himself assigned a far greater role than he had imagined possible when he had voyaged to Osama’s secret hideaway. ‘‘May I make a suggestion?’’ ‘‘Of course.’’ ‘‘What will detonating the bomb in a great American city achieve for our cause?’’ ‘‘It will tell the Americans one thing — what you have suffered until now was only the initial skirmishing. Now, the real battle has started.’’ ‘‘No, my brother, it will only lead the Americans to seek blind and brutal vengeance against Muslims. The hate 9/11 inspired will seem mild in comparison. ‘‘I have learned one thing in the operations I have conducted, beginning with the bombing of the US marine barracks in Lebanon. To be effective, an operation must have a very precise objective. In Beirut, my ambition was to drive the Americans from Lebanon. It suceeded. When (Ronald) Reagan saw how many of his beloved marines had died, he fled.’’ ‘‘So what would you propose? That we tell the Americans they must force their Isaraeli allies to leave our Dar el Islam — Islamic lands — forever?’’ ‘‘No. That would never work. Israel is not going to commit suicide. We must choose an objective that we can hope to achieve. Suppose we tell the Americans the bomb will explode in New York or Washington or Chicago in a week, if you do not force the Israelis to promise publicly before the entire world that they will leave all the illegal settlements that they have installed on the land seized from our Palestinian brothers in 1967?’’ Six million Americans. One mad mission HE sat back to sample reactions to his words. ‘‘That is something we could realistically hope to achieve. All the world, even the American people themselves, see the terrible injustice those settlements represent. Everyone, except the fanatics in Israel, will support our just demand. And if six million Americans die, it will be the Israelis’ fault, not ours.’’ Bin Laden turned to General Bol. ‘‘What do you think as a military man? And also as someone who knows so well how our nuclear arms are stored. Could we smuggle one out? Is such a plan really possible?’’ Bol streched out on his carpet and closed his eyes in thoughtful concentration. ‘‘Yes,’’ he said, on opening them. ‘‘I think it is possible. It will take some time because it must be done in total secrecy, but I know which of my Fighters for Islam I can count on to help us.’’ ‘‘Brilliant!’’ Osama said. ‘‘Our Islamic nuclear bomb will bring justice to our brothers in Palestine, at last. In a way the whole world can accept and understand. How can the Americans do anything but agree?’’
Posted by: Peregrine May 23 2004, 04:52 AM,00050002.htm Talks between Pakistan and India on reducing the risk of nuclear war between the South Asian rivals have been postponed at the request of the new Indian government, the foreign office here said on Sunday. New Delhi on Sunday conveyed its decision to Islamabad to delay the talks which had been scheduled to start on Tuesday, a foreign ministry statement said. "The government of India has requested us for the postponement of the talks on nuclear CBMs (confidence building measures) because, as a result of the recent transition in leadership, an external affairs minister of India had not yet taken office," it said. Senior foreign ministry officials of the nuclear armed neighbours were to discuss nuclear confidence building measures on May 25 and 26. The nuclear talks were scheduled under a calendar of activities agreed on during the outgoing government of Atal Behari Vajpayee. India has proposed that the nuclear talks could be held two days before foreign secretary level talks, it said without giving an exact date. Under a timetable prepared by the two countries at a meeting here on February 18 the foreign secretaries are to meet in June for talks on Kashmir and security issues. Foreign ministers are slated to meet in August to review progress. Earlier foreign office spokesman Masood Khan had said the talks would focus on "strategic stability, crisis management and nuclear risk reduction." "Pakistan and India are nuclear states and they must have a strategic restraint regime," Khan said. Cheers
Posted by: shiv May 23 2004, 08:43 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ May 22 2004, 10:10 PM)
Excuse me - an unrelated query. Look at the photo that Peregrine has posted. See the soldier on the extreme left? Is this typical of a Pakistani market too? biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 23 2004, 10:34 AM
QUOTE (shiv @ May 23 2004, 09:13 PM)
Excuse me - an unrelated query. Look at the photo that Peregrine has posted. See the soldier on the extreme left? Is this typical of a Pakistani market too? biggrin.gif
shiv : Must be part of the perks of being a soildier. Personal query : Are you a Surgeon? Cheers
Posted by: rhytha May 23 2004, 10:43 AM
I think the hand in the pic is about to toss a coin to the pakistani beggar and hence the outstretched arms of the pakistani beggar.
Posted by: Peregrine May 24 2004, 08:13 AM pakee.gif ISLAMAWORST : Pakistan on Sunday termed a reference to the 17th Amendment and other constitutional issues in the decision by the Commonwealth Minister Action Group (CMAG) as “gratuitous”, saying external conditions were not acceptable. “In this context, external conditions are not acceptable,” said Foreign Office spokesman Masood Khan in a statement issued on Sunday. According to the statement, it was regrettable that the Commonwealth secretary general had made irrelevant comments on the restoration of Pakistan’s membership under the influence of misguided political elements and some Commonwealth countries. “The Commonwealth countries, who influenced the secretary general’s remarks, themselves need to improve their democratic standards,” it added. The statement, however, welcomed Pakistan’s reinstatement and said that the Commonwealth and Pakistan should begin a new chapter of political and economic cooperation, based on mutual respect, which is the hallmark of this organisation. staff report Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Homer May 25 2004, 07:07 AM
Seems you guys have a bit of an obsession with Pakistan. All I see are article posted one after the other. No discussion, are you all in the general habit of letting others do your thinking? Lets start with the topic of the thread. Pakistan Terrorist State. Now what leads you all to conclude that Pakistan is a terrorist state. Is it because the Americans say so? Regards Homer [Admin : If you want to ask question, post under Misc thread under General Topic Don't create new thread]
Posted by: Reggie May 25 2004, 07:41 AM
Is it because the Americans say so?
No, it's because I say so. You got a problem with that?
Posted by: k.ram May 25 2004, 08:32 AM
QUOTE (Reggie @ May 25 2004, 08:11 PM)
Is it because the Americans say so?
No, it's because I say so. You got a problem with that?
biggrin.gif cheers.gif to that Reggie
Posted by: Homer May 25 2004, 09:08 AM
No, it's because I say so. You got a problem with that?
No, but then it would hardly be called a discussion if "posters" are going to resort to juvenile tactics and not provide any susbtance to posting. Is this the general attitude here? Let me state , just so that teh admin does not accuse us of being off topic, the reason I asked "because the Americans say so" is if tommorow they call any otehr country terrrosit are we to believe? By the way: One of the Admin made a comment. How do I reply back to the admin? ADMIN
[Admin : If you want to ask question, post under Misc thread under General Topic Don't create new thread]
Yes but the question is related to the thread I am posting in. By the above "Administration" am I to assume that in all threads that are not "Misc" thread and not under "General Topic" I am not allowed to ask questions? Can you please also show me where in your gerenal posting guide lines the above is mentioned. This is a Free Speech forum correct? Regards Homer
Posted by: Administrator May 25 2004, 09:22 AM
Homer, Here is link for guidelines
This is a Free Speech forum correct?
Moderators and admin have full freedom on this Forum to enforce rules and contents.
Posted by: Mudy May 25 2004, 09:52 AM,00050002.htm
the second in Sindh province in a month
God give these Sindhis freedom from dictator Mushy and Paki army.
Posted by: Homer May 25 2004, 09:55 AM
[ Admin Note : Consider this as a last warning, before we revoke your posting priviledge, If you have any question, list them in Misc thread and don't derail threads]
Posted by: Mudy May 25 2004, 10:00 AM biggrin.gif * Says China terrorism suspect killed in tribal areas * Certain Qaeda in tribal areas * Qaeda behind 2 attempts to assassinate him By Rana Qaisar ISLAMABAD: President Pervez Musharraf on Monday lashed out at the Commonwealth Secretary General Don McKinnon for making a statement about Pakistan’s internal affairs. Rejecting McKinnon’s criticism, the president said Pakistan would not accept any conditions linked to the restoration of its membership. “If we are happy to be in the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth should be proud of having a country like Pakistan joining it, so therefore we don’t accept such conditionalities,” he said while addressing the concluding session of the National Students Convention
Posted by: Homer May 25 2004, 10:10 AM
Mushy is also a puppet of the US he will say whatever the U swill tell him to say. He will call his mother a terrorist if that is what Bush wants.
Posted by: Peregrine May 25 2004, 12:43 PM KARACHI: At least two persons were killed and five reported injured following a bomb blast in a security check post at gate Number 17 of Karachi Port in Ghas Bundar area, TPO Athar Rasheed informed. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 25 2004, 12:46 PM
QUOTE (Homer @ May 25 2004, 10:40 PM)
Mushy is also a puppet of the US he will say whatever the U swill tell him to say. He will call his mother a terrorist if that is what Bush wants.
Homer : I fully agree with you 500% about Riff Raff's behaviour. You must appreciate that Bush has got Riff Raff, or as you call hime "Mush", by the Tush. It would indeed rhyme if I stated "Bush has got Mush by the Tush". I appreciate your disappointment at not seeing discussions between members. So the best thing is for you to start commenting on Articles posted here and we will all take up from that. Regarding obsession with Lotastaan : Yes this seems to be a Lota bashing thread but you will appreciated that unlike the various Lotastaani forums, you may have visited or been a member of, we do not use gutter language. A bit of ridicule, of course, but the dialogue is pretty sedate and does not cause the ears to turn PURPLE. Look forward to discussions with you. Cheers
Posted by: shiv May 25 2004, 08:16 PM
QUOTE (Homer @ May 25 2004, 07:37 PM)
Seems you guys have a bit of an obsession with Pakistan. All I see are article posted one after the other. No discussion, are you all in the general habit of letting others do your thinking? Lets start with the topic of the thread. Pakistan Terrorist State. Now what leads you all to conclude that Pakistan is a terrorist state. Is it because the Americans say so? Regards Homer [/b]] [/SIZE][/color]
I know I know. Everyone on here is a moron. We need a person like you to teach us this. I am relieved to find that thinkers such as yourself still exist - I was giving up hope. I don't know about the others with regard to obsession with Pakistan. I must admit that I am obsessed. Pakistan and India started off as parts of the same nation. In 57 years Pakistan has achieved 98.5% literacy, and a burgeoning economy. Although Pakistan's IT industry is smaller than India's it has a greater impact - and has blasted its way into nations all over the world. Pakistan's educational institutions are unique and lead the world in their originality - a little known fact. Indians MUST study Pakistan's model. As regards Pakistan and terrorism - it is a myth. It is these bigoted rightwing hindutva fundamentalist kafir chaddis of india who allege that. But I was not aware that the US has linked terrorism with Pakistan. If that is the case - then I would have to rethink my stand. The US is always right. - as an aside Listen up all you moronic forum members. Hang your heads in shame. I admire Homer for his fothrightness and humility. Learn from him. Stop criticising. We get one learned person here and you people want to argue? Sharam nahin aati hain aapko?
Posted by: prem May 25 2004, 09:47 PM
I was under the imprssion that one Homer was blind and still has enough smartness and imagination to write Illiad, now i know one Homer can be with eyes and still b e without imagination. Pukes are not only terrorists but stoopid too and as they say its better to have wise enemy than a stupid neighbour and here in lies the dillemma, not only we have stupid neighbour but dumb enemy too and i m ashamed that we have to go down to the gutters to understand them and cure them of their mental disorder.
Posted by: rhytha May 25 2004, 09:51 PM
Posted by: Sudhir May 25 2004, 11:00 PM
Homer, Take a swig of Duff, say "Doh!" thrice and then point your browser to the first post of this thread. You'll see the links pointing to the achievements of the terrorist nation. grenade.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 25 2004, 11:07 PM ISLAMABAD (May 26 2004): Size of national economy would jump from $70 billion to $95 billion showing a growth of $25 billion when the government would announce its final figures of growth in Economic Survey 2003-04. This big shift came about when at least ten sectors are added into the GDP calculations, which were left outside the government's samples in addition to the replacing of base year for comparison of growth from 1980-81 with 1999-2000. Moreover, the recent economic growth has also helped. However, the finance ministry is quickly finalising its estimates for Budget 2004-05, which is likely to stay over Rs 900 billion this time. Achieving GDP growth rate beyond 6 percent for fiscal year 2003-04 seems realistic, according to the higher economic activity in economy. There were at least ten various sectors of economy like telecom, IT, and others were accounted for in the renewed calculations of the government to be delivered before the budget in the Economic Survey before the budget. Donors believe that the efficiency increased as four years of reforms have generated capacity to improve growth rate, which is becoming visible now. Apart from these factors, world recovery and growing exports would add to growth rate in medium term. The Ten Sectors are : International Terrorism Internal Terrorism Drugs Smuggling Protection Rackets GUBO Services to Amritraj Religious Fanaticism Begging Madrassas Viagra Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 26 2004, 06:34 AM KARACHI: Another bomb planted in a vehicle went off Wednesday near Pak-American Cultural Center in Karachi, according to initial reports. According to reports, the second blast detonated after 30 minutes of the first blast at the same place. The first bomb blast planted in a vehicle went off around PST 1705, wherein one person was injured. The vehicle with number AB 699 was parked outside the Pak-American Cultural Center (PACC). The first blast was more severe than the second one, with which the vehicle was completely destroyed, reporters said. The blast area has been cordoned off, while traffic roads from all sides have been closed off. Heavy contingency of the police and the personnel of law enforcing agencies accompanied by bomb disposal team also arrived the spot. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy May 26 2004, 08:49 AM
Most important and fast growing sector you missed - Bomb blast. First they destroy and new people get contracts to rebulid ofcourse by US and European financial aid. One must watch Bomb blast sector. They get free advertisement on CNN world wide daily basis, a big saving. Lot of labor get job. Sucide bomber are mostly poor, it is helping to control poor population. Poverty eradication can be achieved soon. When they blast oil pipe, lot of foreigners get a chance to travel to fix pipe, which is helping tourism department. We need to maintain chart on this sector.
Posted by: Peregrine May 26 2004, 12:59 PM
Mudy : Very Simple Ji : Suicide Bomber, Bomb Blast & Pipe Line Blast within Lotastaan : Internal Terrorism Suicide Bomber, Bomb Blast & Pipe Line Blast outside Lotastaan : International Terrorism Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 26 2004, 01:01 PM pakee.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 28 2004, 02:13 PM
ISLAMAWORST: Foreign Secretary, Riaz Khokar has said that a message relating to fixing the date and place of the next meeting between Pakistan and India at foreign secretaries level was still not received although it was slated in the first week of June in accordance with an earlier decision taken during the talks between the two countries held on February 18. He told this while talking to journalists after attending a function held in connection with the world-day celebration for military and civil personnel taking part in UN peace mission. He said that the new government in India had just assumed power and they still require some time to take up their responsibilities. However, he said that since the leaderships of both the countries were sincere to pursue the peace dialogue, there was no possibility of any break down in the talks.
Posted by: Peregrine May 29 2004, 08:44 AM
Posting here as Al Qaeda is the other name of Lotastaani Terroism : KHOBAR, Saudi Arabia: Alleged Al Qaeda-linked militants killed at least 16 people in a string of attacks in the eastern city of Khobar, Saudi security sources said, according to a foreign news agency. They said the dead included at least nine civilians, seven of whom were foreigners and seven members of the Saudi security forces. The sources gave the nationalities of the dead as an American, a Briton, an Egyptian, two Filipinos, an Indian, Pakistani and two Saudi civilians. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy May 30 2004, 07:56 AM Weekly festivity user posted image
Posted by: Peregrine May 31 2004, 12:30 AM
The existing wheat crisis is mostly manmade and partly caused by Nature. The country has been importing wheat for the last 47 years due to mismanagement by agriculture managers. For the corrupt rulers, bureaucrats and influential businessmen, money is more important than the national interest.
The abovementioned facts prove the wheat crisis man-made. The government has decided to import this commodity. This will again provide a chance to earn commissions by the concerned politicians and bureaucracrats. In 1997-98 nearly 4.1 million tons of wheat was imported and a commission of $20 per ton wasstated to have been taken by the then concerned lobby. The next year inspite of self-sufficiency claims the country had to import 2.3 million tons on which a commission of $25 per ton was taken. In view of the track record wheat consumers should understand that their representatives would not help in cutting food costs except for making hollow promises.
Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine May 31 2004, 08:18 AM
Meanwhile back at the Lota Ranch : Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 31 2004, 09:09 AM
Revenge killing,1280,-4152657,00.html KARACHI, Pakistan (AP) - A bomb exploded at a Shiite Muslim mosque in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi on Monday, killing at least five people and injuring 10, a doctor and a senior official said.
Posted by: Mudy May 31 2004, 11:00 AM
Pak, Saudis will sustain Al-Qaeda: FBI 28 May 2004: An FBI report on terror patterns upto 2010 says Pakistan and four other Muslim countries would substantially contribute to the growth of the Al-Qaeda, which has given up looking for bases or governments to coopt or overturn. The FBI report prepared with the assistance of eighteen intelligence agencies around the world was submitted to the US government in March. The countries besides Pakistan expected to sustain the Al-Qaeda, according to the FBI, are Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan, and the report says the terror group is drawing on the so-called SYSM strategy prepared by the German military command during World War II, where officers and soldiers of German stock in enemy armies were exhorted to change sides by appealing to their racial vanity. In Al-Qaeda’s case, says the FBI report, the appeal would be to follow the call of Islam, and the targets would be essentially armies of Muslim countries, and if the appeals are successful, coups may be provoked and governments overturned. The FBI has already established a pattern of the Al-Qaeda fomenting disaffection in several armies to further its terror agenda. Elements in the Indonesian army apparently provided explosives to the Jemaah Islamiyah for the Bali bombing on 12 December 2002 in which 202 persons were killed, and the triple car bombing in Riyadh in May 2003 in which 21 people died and the USS Cole attack of October 2000 in which 17 US sailors were killed are also being linked to the Saudi and Yemeni armies. The FBI report further says that the Al-Qaeda will be able to mobilise 30,000 cadre by 2010, and these would include fighters, suicide bombers, and logistics providers throughout the world.
Posted by: Peregrine May 31 2004, 11:10 AM Supporters of Shamzai went on a rampage in Karachi after the attack. ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- At least 13 people were killed and several others were wounded when a bomb went off at a Shiite Muslim mosque in the Pakistani port city of Karachi, hospital sources and police said. Police said a bomb went off about 7:50 p.m. (10:50 a.m. ET) Monday as worshippers were praying inside the mosque. Several of the wounded were reported in critical condition after the attack, hospital officials said. Earlier Monday, police said a rocket attack outside the southwestern Pakistani city of Quetta targeted Education Minister Zobaida Jalal's residence. The minister survived, but one of her servants died in the attack and 12 others were injured. Jalal has been responsible for recent changes to the curriculum in Pakistani schools that reduce the influence of fundamentalist Islam and the concept of holy war. Critics have said she acted under pressure from the United States. She said the attacks were "harassment" and called them "disheartening," but said she would not be deterred from her duties. "I will continue doing what I am supposed to do," she said. Also Monday, Islamic hard-liners called for a nationwide strike after the slaying of Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai by unknown assailants. Shamzai -- a well-known Islamic scholar known for his preaching against American foreign policy -- was in a vehicle outside his home when a group of gunmen opened fire. His son, driver and bodyguard were also shot and wounded in the attack. They are in stable condition. The motive of the attack is not clear. But it prompted an angry mob to set fire to several buildings in downtown Karachi while others threw stones at Pakistani forces. Paramilitary police fired on protesters, wounding one person, police said. A special police task force has been set up to investigate the killing of Shamzai. The cleric, in his 70s, is from the Sunni branch of Islam and had a large following in Pakistan. He had been a strong supporter of the former Taliban regime that ruled Afghanistan and had met al Qaeda boss Osama bin Laden, The Associated Press reported Although Shamzai was known for criticizing U.S. policy in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent months, he was not known to be involved in politics or sectarian issues. A coalition of six fundamentalist parties, the United Action Forum, has called for a nationwide strike on Friday to protest the killing and also to pressure police to arrest the attackers. "We will not sit silent. We will protest against the brutal murder of a great religious personality," the coalition's Maulana Fazur Rahman told reporters. Last week, two explosions near the residence of the American consul general in Karachi killed a police officer and wounded another 22 people, and a May 7 bombing of another Shiite mosque there killed a dozen people, wounded 90 and sparked a riot. Birdies coming home to Roost!! clap.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 31 2004, 01:01 PM
QUOTE ohmy.gif Monday, May 31, 2004 (New Delhi): Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf held a telephonic conversation with former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee today and urged him to play a role in furthering the peace process between the two countries. During the 15-minute conversation, both leaders reiterated the need to strengthen the peace process they had initiated in Islamabad earlier this year. They also agreed that unnecessary statements should be avoided from both sides. General Musharraf said that the steps taken in the last six months were very positive and nothing should be done to impede this progress. The military leader is believed to have told Vajpayee that he should use his experience for the betterment of relations between India and Pakistan. President Musharraf apparently called up the former Indian PM to enquire about his health. (With PTI inputs)
Why Musy is calling Vajpayee? Whatever written promises made by Mushy are already or partly fulfilled, but Indian side promises after new govt. is now in drain. Mushy is nervous or trying to create wedge .
Posted by: Rajita Rajvasishth May 31 2004, 01:49 PM
An FBI report on terror patterns upto 2010 says Pakistan and four other Muslim countries would substantially contribute to the growth of the Al-Qaeda, which has given up looking for bases or governments to coopt or overturn.
Then why not do something about the whole thing. Why go about calling Pakis and Saudis our stalwart allies and give them more weapons for running this business.
Posted by: Peregrine May 31 2004, 01:55 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 1 2004, 01:31 AM)
Why Musy is calling Vajpayee? Whatever written promises made by Mushy are already or partly fulfilled, but Indian side promises after new govt. is now in drain. Mushy is nervous or trying to create wedge .
Mudy : Riff Raff is getting desperate. He calls Prime Minister Manmohan Singh – Highly Inappropriate. A Head of State calling a Head of Government. He then calls Sonia Gandhi – Again Highly Inappropriate. A Head of State calling the Leader of the Ruling Party – okay Head of the Largest Party in the Coalition. Finally he calls ABV - Even More Inappropriate. A Head of State calling the Leader of the Opposition – Largest Opposition Party. At the same time Lotastaan is in flames. The best part of his “calling” showed up on this TV Interview. Interviewer : Mr. President you invited Sonia Gandhi to visit Lotastaan? Riff Raff : Yes. Interviewer : Did she invite you to visit India? Riff Raff : No. She did not. I think Riff Raff’s days are numbered. The Mullah-Al Qaeda Coalition will get rid of him – I hope. Cheers
Posted by: Rajita Rajvasishth May 31 2004, 01:57 PM
Why is Pukistan called Lotastaan ? Just curious.. Do Pukis use lotas like Hindis for sanitary purposes? ohmy.gif I know of a certain meaning of Pak that is from paki (pure) Urdu that is adult language.- wonder why Jinnah did not think about that while naming his wretched baby omg.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 31 2004, 02:11 PM
Lotastan = beggar stan. biggrin.gif pakis call their minister and especially PM Jamail head of Lootas. biggrin.gif The Patriots (in real sense ‘lotas’) have once again requested Gen. Musharraf not to shed his uniform as COAS. It seems that as the deadline for Musharraf for doling out uniform is approaching, the Patriots who link their future to the uniform are fast approaching to nervous breakdown. My only fear is for these conscientious-less men are that they will all land in the hospital as a result of nervous breakdown. So I request Gen. Musharraf, their benefactor, to look after these political turncoats. -SYED ABBAS SHAH, Peshawar Cantt., via e-mail, May 21.
Posted by: Peregrine May 31 2004, 02:16 PM
QUOTE (Rajita Rajvasishth @ Jun 1 2004, 02:27 AM)
Why is Pukistan called Lotastaan ? Just curious.. Do Pukis use lotas like Hindis for sanitary purposes? ohmy.gif I know of a certain meaning of Pak that is from paki (pure) Urdu that is adult language.- wonder why Jinnah did not think about that while naming his wretched baby omg.gif
Rajita Rajvasishth : LOTASTAAN - LAND OF LOTAS user posted image Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 31 2004, 02:35 PM By Arnaud de Borchgrave UPI Editor-at-large Washington, , May. 31 (UPI) -- Pakistan, a "major non-NATO ally" of the U.S., has 22 Urdu-language publications that advocate jihad (holy war) against the United States, Israel and India. They are a blend of information and disinformation designed for the countless millions of gullible men who were educated in madrassas, the Koranic schools where they were taught to read and write and to recite the Koran by heart -- to the exclusion of all other disciplines. Zarb-e-Momin (Blow of the Pious), a weekly published by the Al Rashid Trust in Karachi, under the headline "Israel Spends $74 million to Spread Prostitution in Afghanistan," said, "This money will be spent setting up brothels, pubs and casinos in Afghanistan. Funneled through Population Service International (PSI), ostensibly to control population, these funds are to lure Afghan women to prostitution. PSI is also encouraging couples to practice oral sex, which is forbidden in Islam. Whoever would indulge in it will no more remain a Muslim." The same issue also said U.S. soldiers were promoting pornography in Afghanistan. "In Khost, the Americans are distributing triple X CDs, videos and magazines as freebies by the thousands. They have even set up internet cafes that show free porn movies...If the Afghans got rid of the Russians, how can they tolerate the Americans who are committing atrocities against Muslims all over the world?" Majjala-tul-Dawa, the monthly publication of Jamaat-ud-Dawa (that replaced the banned extremist party Lashkar-e-Tayyaba) said the madrassas were established "to contain the invasion of Christians, Jews and Hindus who want to erase the spirit of Islam, jihad and the sharia (Islamic law) from Muslim countries. Most of our leaders are lap dogs of the Americans. The U.S. has forced our rulers to change the present curriculum that is Islam-based. The government recently notified a 'hanger tax' on those female students who wear the burqa in schools who are now required to hang them up." The magazine's May issue also praised the exploits of Abu Qasim, a jihadi "mastermind of suicide attacks against Indian dogs and pigs (soldiers) who recently embraced martyrdom. All the mothers should be proud of giving birth to a jihadi like Qasim. All the boys should aspire to die like Qasim. O boys, forget about this material world. Join mujahideen and fight the devil forces of India who are killing and raping your mothers, daughters and sisters...Qasim's blood is giving you dawat (an invitation) to become a mujahideen. Your hero should be Qasim, not (President Pervez) Musharraf." Yet another story in Majjala-tul-Dawa told of the exploits of Hafiz Saeed, the founder of Lashkar-e-Taiba (terrorist group known as LT). "With the help of specialists, Saeed preached jihad to the deaf mute that 'Allah has created the human being for only one mission -- jihad. You are not less important than others are because of your special status. It is also your duty to go to Kashmir and wage jihad against the Hindu *******s. Then I could claim that my handicapped jihadis are enough to kill the healthy Indian dogs. Nida-e-Millat, a weekly published by the Nawai Waqt Group in Lahore, said Christian missionaries "under the guise of aid missions are forcing Iraqis to abandon their Muslim faith with bread and medicines...They are setting up churches in every nook and cranny of every Muslim country. Iran is the next target of the missionaries. Anyone who is ready to become a Christian is given an American passport." Under the headline "It is Time to Divorce the U.S.," Lahore's Nawai Waqt said, "By siding with the U.S., Pakistan has gained nothing but lost on every count. American soldiers violate Pakistan's territorial sovereignty very frequently. U.S. think tanks have already predicted Pakistan's disintegration by 2010. We have been condemned to fight a war that is no war. We have been condemned to kill our own people who have committed no crime." "The U.S. has launched a crusade against the Islamic world," the Lahore daily wrote, "It is massacring Muslims in the name of war against al-Qaida and terror. The U.S. forced Pakistan to become a partner in this war. Musharraf still has time to repent and understand that Pakistanis will never accept the killing of their brothers by their own people...Musharraf should understand it is time to respect the people's opinion. If he persists in ordering the Pak army to kill Pakistanis, then 150 million people will stand against him sooner than later. It is time to divorce the U.S."
Posted by: Viren May 31 2004, 08:28 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ May 31 2004, 02:10 PM)
Is there some study anywhere on the number of mosques these goons are destroying? I've noticed atleast a dozen such TSP mosque related violence against Shias (who I understand are muslims). Talk about beggars in glass house throwing stones around mad.gif
Posted by: Mudy May 31 2004, 08:34 PM
Here is data sheets on
Posted by: Viren May 31 2004, 09:02 PM
Thanks Mudy. I was specifically refering to the violence within the mosques? Shias are for the most part attacked in mosques or while praying. Why? Shia mosques are bombed or burnt or razed to ground? Would be nice to have a list with names/location of those dozen odd Shia mosques in TSP.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 1 2004, 02:56 AM
The daily says that the theft of 384,000 cusecs of water from Sindh's share confirms that Punjab has been usurping Sindh's water and wants the Kalabagh dam built in order to grab even more water. Therefore, Ibrat suggests, the federation should not only take notice of the water theft but should also impartially consider Sindh's opposition to the dam. Otherwise, the sense of deprivation that is already there in water-starved Sindh will intensify.
KARACHI: The Sindh government plans to import wheat directly in case the federal government fails to provide subsidy on 800,000 tonnes of wheat - to be imported by the Trading Corporation of Pakistan (TCP) - to meet its demand.
Posted by: Arun Jun 1 2004, 07:19 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 1 2004, 09:32 AM)
Would be nice to have a list with names/location of those dozen odd Shia mosques in TSP.
Viren, Try this About a quarter of the page down. Added later: This may also help.
Posted by: Viren Jun 1 2004, 07:45 AM
Thanks Arun. Interesting site. Couldn't help notice a poll on their site. Over 66% there think Sipha-e-Yazeed is root cause of attack on Sindh Madressa's Hyderi Mosque. The choices were: - Pakistan's Changing Foreign policies - Elections in Karachi - Sipha-e-Yazeed The "foreign hand" isn't even listed as one of the choice! Nor have we seen TSP officals rant about 'external forces' this time. Wonder what's wrong (or right?) with them lately.
Posted by: rhytha Jun 1 2004, 12:20 PM
A Pakis teens take on Love. Teenagers in love By Tanzeel-ur-Rehman Love means warm affection and attachment. In my opinion true love is given by blood relatives, specially parents. The love given by them is indeed a life builder. When I entered my teens, my pals used the word "love" consistently and I didn't know what it actually was? What are the consequences? How it starts? How it ends? After a deep meditation, I got the answer to all these. Along with this, I also concluded that this word is being wrongly used in the society. As I am a teenager and a boy, so I would only discuss the apathy of male youngsters. Amongst teens, ninety per cent of the conversation is about girls; I mean to say about the girls they think they love. They refer to them as their "girl friends" (In short they call it GF). What they usually discuss is how the girls approached them that day, what they talked about, was she in a good mood, was she looking pretty that day, how did the boy react, how did he answer, etc. I always try to avoid these silly tales and ignore them. At times I feel that as a Muslim I need to guide my friends to the right path. But, unfortunately, the discussion has led us no where. I once told this to my uncle. He said it seems that teenagers have reached their second childhood and it would be very difficult task to guide them because it's very difficult to teach an old acrobat a new trick. What I think is that someone has dropped the LMD (Love of Mind Destruction) and its effects would remain for a long time. These teenagers waste a lot of time as well as money in order to, directly or indirectly, impress the girls. They spend hours and hours in gyms in quest of becoming Arnold Shawarzenegar. They spend precious money and time purchasing pathetic pants, shirts and chains to appear cool. Someone truly said that love is an ocean of emotions surrounded by expenses. If their minds compel them so much to spend money, why don't they give it to the poor? Their trash can be someone's treasure. For discouraging love, I have been termed stupid, mentally retarded and above all a Mulla. They think that life is incomplete without love at this stage and the most shocking thing is that it is their No. 1 priority. However, I argue that in this world there are countless things to be done, which are a must. Who will fight against poverty? Who will bring peace in Kashmir and Palestine? Who will make Pakistan one of the greatest nations? Who will fight terrorism? Howcome 'love' became a priority? Once my friend argued that a part of his heart would remain empty if he wouldn't love any girl. I suggested that why doesn't he fill it with the love of Allah and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)? Why doesn't he fill it with the love of poor? Why doesn't he fill it with the love of his country? We must fill our hearts with appropriate and useful feelings. The feeling of loving girls is totally irrelevant. I have seen, heard and watched countless times teenagers falling from elite position to worst. How this happened? If their love is rejected, they deliberately sit under the shadow of dejection. The internal torment may constrain a person to commit suicide. This ominous feeling or, in fact, a disease is invading minds with tremendous speed. It must be wiped out because it just might be too late if we don't take appropriate measures soon. As our elders said: life is like a thin ice; every step must be taken with great care. If anything fascinates, don't see the face, see character because you cannot judge a book by its cover. If anyone walks blindly, the ice may break and he would have to help himself to come out from chilled water. In short I would like to say that this is not the stage to fall in love with girls. Try not to think of them. Out of mind, out of sight is the case.Last but not least, "The first sign of love is the last of wisdom".
Posted by: Rajita Rajvasishth Jun 1 2004, 12:46 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jun 1 2004, 02:46 AM)
omg.gif thanks smile.gif Must have seen that on BR or somewhere. Only now made the connection sad.gif The Paki sanitation should be real problem with those long snouted lotas. Dirty Pakis.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 2 2004, 12:56 AM
KARACHI, June 1: Life in several parts of Karachi came to a standstill on Tuesday as mourners attending the funeral of most of the victims of the Imambargh Ali Raza mosque bombing and protesters clashed with police on the city's man through fare, the M.A. Jinnah Road.
NEW YORK, June 1: UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan on Tuesday said he was very disturbed by the violence in Pakistan, including the bombing of a Shia mosque in Karachi, that left 20 people dead."The secretary general condemns in the strongest terms terrorist acts that target innocent civilians and places of worship.
Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 2 2004, 01:50 AM NEW DELHI: The return to power of India's Congress party - riding on support from communist parties with whom it shares ideologically similar views - naturally carries with it the diplomatic baggage of the Cold War era , a time India was firmly aligned with the former Soviet Union. While India's new Foreign Minister, Natwar Singh, a career diplomat-turned politician, is charting out a bold new course is said to be pragmatic, he will not be as overanxious to please Washington and its friends as the ousted, right-wing government led by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). Through revelations made since assuming office last week, the formidably erudite Singh, who reviews books in his spare time, has made it clear that there will be no quick-fix solution to the half-century old Kashmir dispute. He is prepared to play the waiting game a little longer, he says. "You know we can sit it out. I don't think the Pakistanis can sit it out indefinitely," Mr Singh said in an interview published in the June 7 issue of the 'Outlook' weekly, laying out the essential difference between the Indian and Pakistani positions on the Kashmir real estate. That statement and sharp responses from Pakistan occasioned a special clarification on Monday by India's Foreign Secretary Shashank, a top bureaucrat from the external affairs ministry who said that this country remains committed to the "composite dialogue" initiated by former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee while in Islamabad in January this year. Fears that the brakes may now be applied, however gradually, to the new rapprochement have been allayed to some degree by telephone conversations between Pakistan Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali and his Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh on Saturday. According to Natwar Singh, Congress party chief Sonia Gandhi, who declined the premiership after leading her party to victory in the April and May polls but remains the country's most powerful politician, plans to visit Pakistan in response to an invitation from Pakistan President Gen Pervez Musharraf Yet, Natwar Singh is more likely to follow the Congress party's tough foreign policy, which has seen India militarily intervening in Pakistan's civil war. This resulted in the creation of Bangladesh in 1971. That war also produced the 1972 Simla Accord between India and Pakistan, under which the two countries agree to settle all outstanding disputes between them, including the Kashmir issue, bilaterally. Natwar Singh has repeatedly said that he considers the Simla Accord the "bedrock" on which ties between the neighbours are constructed, causing much consternation in Islamabad. The responses have been typical. On Saturday, Islamabad test-fired yet another one of its nuclear-capable missiles. The Pakistan-based militant group, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen, claimed responsibility for the deadly May 23 ambush on a paramilitary convoy in Kashmir that left 30 people dead. India's tougher policy line proceeds from a view that the rapprochement achieved by Mr Vajpayee was pushed by Washington and therefore needed reappraisal. "Every pronouncement that came from the United States, even before anybody discussed it, we welcomed," Natwar Singh said in criticism of the BJP policy. While in the opposition, the Congress party and Natwar Singh thwarted plans by the pro-Washington BJP government to respond positively to US requests for troops to be sent to Iraq. Now firmly in office, the Congress party has let it be known that India would follow its old tack of being opposed to unilateral military action against any country and that any contribution to the effort to stabilize Iraq would have to come from a "duly elected government in Iraq". The Congress party's communist supporters favour a restructured foreign policy that makes India more closely aligned to China and Russia, but have so far not pushed it. Perhaps in response to the Congress party's clearly enunciated policy on Iraq, US Secretary of State Colin Powell told India's privately-owned NDTV 24x7 news channel in an interview broadcast on Sunday that any further request to New Delhi for troops would indeed come from an Iraqi government. For all its firmness, India under the Congress party-led coalition government is unlikely to upset the momentum built up by the BJP with Washington and its allies in the region such as Pakistan or Israel. India 's new Defence Minister, Pranab Mukherjee, has announced that he would honour deals made by the BJP regime to buy military hardware from Israel.-Dawn/The Inter Press News Service. Cheers
Posted by: Arun Jun 2 2004, 06:05 AM
Even in a case in which a Briton is jailed for attempting to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Australia, a Pakistani link emerges :
Roche was given money and explosives training by al-Qaida in Pakistan and Afghanistan, where he met Osama bin Laden,12469,1229311,00.html
Posted by: Viren Jun 2 2004, 10:32 AM's~'Pak~Yatra'~to~be~released~soon
The book has been written in three languages, the first part 'Meri Pakistan Yatra' is in Hindi while the second part 'My Pakistan Tour' is in English and the third and the last part 'Mera Safare Pakistan' is in Urdu.
Looking forward to the reviews smile.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 2 2004, 11:42 PM
Rajita Rajvasishth : Prof® A H Subhani - From : Chaklala This is with reference to Hashmat A. Khwaja’s letter on ‘What is a lota’ wherein he wants to know: "What a lota has to do with floor crossing politicians" (The News, May 28, 2004). For the kind information of Mr. Khwaja, in our culture, a person who does not possess his or her own opinion and changes his or her loyalties with the flow of the wind is called a ‘baseless lota’ (bae painda lota). Because a baseless lota, unlike a lota with a base, changes its position with the slightest jerk. Now with the passage of time, the term ‘baseless lota’ has simply changed into ‘lota’. So, when we say that such and such person is a ‘lota’ it means he she is a baseless lota’. In Lotastaan everybody is a "baseless LOTA" Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 3 2004, 11:09 AM One person has been killed and several injured in clashes between protestors and security forces on the outskirts of the northern Pakistani city of Gilgit. An indefinite curfew in the city and in other parts of the country's northern areas remains in force. There was widespread violence in the town of Hunza when the authorities tried to stop Shia from demonstrating. They have been campaigning for changes in religious textbooks. The changes are strongly opposed by many Sunnis. Troops on patrol A BBC correspondent in Gilgit says that the city has remained mostly peaceful since the imposition of the curfew on Thursday morning. Our correspondent says there were clashes between demonstrators and security forces on the outskirts of the city, when a radio transmitter compound was attacked. A police guard room was burnt down by the protestors, but the transmitter is not reported to have been damaged. Throughout the day troops with machine guns mounted on trucks patrolled the city, warning local people not to come out of their homes. But despite the strict security measures, the authorities were unable to stop a large number of Shia Muslims from nearby villages marching towards Gilgit. As the protesters tried to enter the city, clashes broke out between armed villages and the security forces. Doctors at a local hospital said one protester was killed and at least three injured. Two police officials were also brought to the hospital with gunshot wounds, but their condition was said to be stable. Reports from the nearby town of Hunza said thousands of Shia protesters attacked government buildings in the morning, and ransacked a state-run hotel. A number of offices were also set on fire. The were protesting against the government's decision to impose a ban on rallies staged by the Shia community. They are a minority in most parts of Pakistan, but form a sizeable majority in the country's northern areas. They have been campaigning for the changes in the curriculum, particularly in textbooks for religious studies, which they say only present a Sunni Muslim version of Islamic history. The Shia community had planned a big demonstration on Thursday, but because of sectarian killings in Karachi earlier this week the authorities imposed restrictions in an effort to avoid violent clashes between rival communities. Our correspondent in Gilgit says that it is unlikely that the curfew will lifted in the foreseeable future. Meanwhile a large number of Shia protesters are still reported to be blocking the main Karakoram highway in Gilgit which links Pakistan with China. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 3 2004, 12:02 PM pakee.gif LONDON: Britain's Foreign Office revised its travel advice for Pakistan on Thursday, urging visitors to be vigilant when visiting Karachi in the light of a renewed surge in sectarian violence there. "If visiting Karachi, you should take particular care, avoid travelling on foot and travel in vehicles only between secure, well-guarded premises. You should keep away from all places of worship in Karachi," it said. The revised British advice followed a US State Department warning that US citizens and interests in Karachi could be targets for attack during a general strike that has been called to protest recent unrest. Karachi, Pakistan's largest city with 14 million inhabitants, has long been scourged by ethnic, sectarian and religious violence. More than 4,000 people have been killed in fighting between extremists from the Sunni majority and Shiite minority since the 1980s. Violence has intensified in recent weeks, however, after a Shiite mosque was attacked by a suicide bomber on May 7 that killed 23 worshippers. Over the weekend, a prominent Sunni cleric was slain apparently prompting Monday's suicide bombing of a Shiite Mosque that killed 21 people and sparked three days of consecutive rioting during which at least five people died. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 3 2004, 12:28 PM
"If visiting Karachi, you should take particular care, avoid travelling on foot and travel in vehicles only between secure, well-guarded premises
I failed to understand this logic. As soon as they are in open, it is field day for anyone. I don't think thay have secure corridor in Pakistan.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 3 2004, 11:27 PM pakee.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Sudhir Jun 4 2004, 02:52 PM Look who's talking pakee.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 4 2004, 11:41 PM,00050002.htm It could soon be curtains for Pakistan's top nuclear scientist AQ Khan. A new nuclear bill to be tabled in the National Assembly by the federal Government on Monday may see him going to jail for 14 years. Not only that, he and the country's other accused nuclear scientists could also be asked to pay a fine of Rs 5 million and also lose all their movable and immovable assets if they are found guilty of illegally exporting nuclear know-how, reports The News. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Reggie Jun 5 2004, 09:14 AM
PAKI WATCH 'Big Brother' is reading all Pak surfers e-mails! Saturday June 5 2004 19:29 IST ANI LAHORE: Violating privacy laws aimed at safeguarding the personal affairs of Pakistani citizens, US secret agencies are spying on online traffic coming out of the country's leading Internet Service Providers (ISPs). Informed sources told The Nation that American agencies have set up a mechanism with the help of Pakistan's intelligence agencies to monitor all online traffic in the country in order to trace out Al-Qaeda presence. The Pakistani intelligence agencies have been collecting records of all the internet-users from the ISPs for onward transmission to the US officials on regular basis, the sources revealed. Under the arrangement, the Pakistan Telecommunications Authority (PTA), which is the regulatory body which monitors the activities of ISPs operating in Pakistan, has directed the latter to co-operate with the security agencies, and provide them all the required information and data about their users. To locate Al-Qaeda members in Pakistan as well as in other parts of the world, the CIA, the sources said, uses the data collected by the ISI. The sources told the paper that the ISI officials provide them with CDs to copy the log-in record. They further said the officials deputed for collecting such data are replaced after a few weeks and no individual is on a permanent basis. A very high placed source revealed that a Brigadier supervises the whole operation and personally monitors all the movement of his staff. "The US agencies have developed an organization named "SITE" which monitors the Al Qaeda internet communication. This agency is stated to have provided chilling details about a high tech recruitment drive launched in 2003 to recruit fighters for participating in the armed struggle against US forces in Iraq. I wouldn't bet on it though! ISI is quite capable of outwitting the Americans.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 5 2004, 02:06 PM NEW DELHI (AFP) – India’s foreign minister has said he will ask Pakistan when it plans to end its programme of ‘terrorism’ against India when he meets his counterpart in August. The statement came after Pakistan on Monday urged India’s new government not to ‘conduct diplomacy through the media’ following a series of statements and counter-statements over the starting point of future talks. Natwar Singh told the India Today weekly: ‘We are for the closest relations with Pakistan, but based on reciprocity and realism. ‘When I meet Pakistani Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri in August, I will ask them when they plan to stop their terrorism programme. ‘There can be no compromise on terrorism. Most terrorism in India comes from across the border, though Pakistan’s policy of bleeding India has not worked.’ India’s government, which took office last month, has pledged to continue a peace process initiated by the previous Hindu nationalist administration. Pakistan’s top envoy here, High Commissioner Aziz Ahmed Khan, called on Saturday on India’s new National Security Adviser J.N. Dixit to review bilateral relations, official sources said. India accuses Pakistan of fomenting an anti-India movement in the Himalayan region of Kashmir. In the latest violence, three Kashmiris and an Indian soldier were killed near the Line of Control, which has been relatively quiet since the neighbours reached a truce in November. Natwar said he hoped violence in Kashmir would die down as Indian and Pakistani officials sat down for talks scheduled in New Delhi this month. ‘We hope there won’t be such attacks given the new atmosphere,’ said Natwar, whose August meeting with his counterpart was set during breakthrough talks in February held by his predecessor. Separately, Natwar said India was willing to consider a gas pipeline from Iran to India running through Pakistan if Islamabad gave ‘international security guarantees’. Negotiations on the 1,600-kilometre pipeline began in 1994 but no headway was made due to tensions between Pakistan and India and the project’s massive cost. India has been reluctant to sign up for the project, as it fears Pakistan could cut off fuel supplies if hostilities broke out. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 5 2004, 03:23 PM pakee.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 5 2004, 05:20 PM'You~have~a~Muslim~Prez,~a~Sikh~PM,~you~should~be~proud’
So will he return to Pakistan soon? ‘‘Of course, I will. There will be an uprising against Musharraf. His popularity is at an all-time low. Benazir and I may find a common agenda to restore democracy. We talk to each other often. Musharraf says the opposition is being run from Dubai and Jeddah, and guess what,’’ he smiles broadly, ‘‘he’s right.
Posted by: k.ram Jun 6 2004, 03:28 PM
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 7 2004, 03:29 PM liar.gif SYDNEY (AFP) - Independent laboratory tests in Britain have proven that Pakistan wrongly rejected a major shipment of allegedly infected Australian wheat earlier this year, grain exporter AWB Ltd said Monday. The Australian monopoly wheat exporter said Britain's Central Science Laboratory (CSL) found no sign of karnal bunt disease in the 150,000 tonne shipment, which had also been cleared by Australian scientists. "Samples were taken under Pakistani government supervision from all four rejected ships, and CSL found no evidence of karnal bunt in any of the samples analysed," AMB managing director Andrew Lindberg said in a statement. "AWB is pleased with the test results as they reaffirm Australia's reputation as a supplier of high-quality clean, white wheat, and vindicates our position regarding the quality of Australian wheat during the recent events in Pakistan," he added. Karnal bunt, a fungus that gives wheat a fishy smell that makes it unfit for human consumption, has never been detected in Australia and Australian experts who tested the grain said they found none in the shipment. Lindberg said the company had the wheat re-examined in Britain in a bid to ensure other key markets did not reject future shipments. Pakistan's claim that the shipment was infected prompted government protests from Australia and threatened to undermine the country's 3.5 billion dollar a year wheat export business. pakee.gif The wheat rejected by Pakistan was eventually sold to other countries in the Middle East and Southeast Asia. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 7 2004, 06:17 PM pakee.gif It will make a Glaswegian Stevedores Ears turn Purple – Ladies Beware. Somebody should record this and give it a suitable “URL” as it might be erased. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 8 2004, 08:19 AM
Posted by: Mudy Jun 8 2004, 12:10 PM B Raman
Posted by: Viren Jun 8 2004, 03:36 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jun 7 2004, 09:17 PM) pakee.gif
laugh.gif laugh.gif Peregrine: The guy is a director of a college and lives in "officers scheme" !!!! Also note him complaining that he's lost a "million right away" coz of the shody service. And the muted response by the phone company ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif Looks like TSP fauji foundation culture in it's full glory. Wonder how the recording of the call got out wink.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 8 2004, 04:33 PM
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 9 2004, 01:12 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 9 2004, 04:06 AM)
Peregrine: The guy is a director of a college and lives in "officers scheme" !!!! Also note him complaining that he's lost a "million right away" coz of the shody service. And the muted response by the phone company ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif Looks like TSP fauji foundation culture in it's full glory. Wonder how the recording of the call got out wink.gif
Viren : 1. “Lost a Million Right Away” - Lota Liar liar.gif 2. The Lotastaanis in the “Service Sector” are “Trained to Obey Authority” – Who knows the caller may be Riff Raff pakee.gif in person. 3. How Recording of the call “got out” : A Marvel of Lotastaan’s IT (International Terrorism) Acumen. I believe Lotastaan has exported International Terrorism to the tune of USD 125 Million this year. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 9 2004, 03:10 AM thumbup.gif clap.gif KARACHI: At least 900 Pakistanis deported from Muscat have reached Karachi through two launches following the journey of several days. All of them were released after initial investigations on the port. These Pakistanis were detained in Muscat’s prisons from six months. All Societies, Countries, Nations, amongst others, are ridding themselves of the Terrorist Jehadi Lotastaanis and Bhookhanangadeshis. When will The Indian Government come to its senses and deport the 20-40 Million Illegal Lotastaani and Bhookhanangadeshi Terrorist Jehadi Illegal Immigrants? Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jun 9 2004, 12:44 PM a more appropriate headline would have been P T Barnum's: "There's a sucker born every minute"
Pakistan on Wednesday welcomed India's readiness to set up the US$3 billion Iran-Pakistan-India Gas pipeline and said it would 'be glad' to guarantee security to the project, a condition put forward by External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh. This was stated by Pakistan Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri in a meeting with Indian Ambassador Shivsankar Menon in Islamabad. Kasuri welcomed the statement of Singh that India would agree to the setting up of the pipeline project if Pakistan were to give international guarantees for its security, the foreign ministry said in a statement.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 9 2004, 01:57 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 10 2004, 01:14 AM) a more appropriate headline would have been P T Barnum's: "There's a sucker born every minute"
Cross Posted on the “Energy Sector, Gas, Oil, Electricity etc.” Thread Viren : About Two Years ago – Nov 11 2002 Possibly – there was an article in the TradeWinds, a Shipping Magazine, interviewing the Chairman of National Iranian Tanker Company Mr. Mohd. Suri. Two matters, in main, were discussed : 1. NITC had discussed the matter of a fleet of LNG Carriers and felt that to service the LNG produced by Iran a fleet of about 30-33 Vessels would be require. Of these the NITC would have 12 to 16 under its Ownership and he expected that a “friendly consortium to acquire the remaining. 2. As per the research carried out by the NITC it was found that it would be more Economical to transport Natural Gas in the form of LNG by LNG Carriers to India than have it transported by a Land Pipe Line via Lotastaan to India. Unfortunately I cannot access the TradeWinds Archive as it a subscriber site. However I have the following information – in good faith – to hand : AA : Approximate Cost Analysis of Transporting Natural Gas via a Pipe Line through Lotastaan 1. Cost of Land Pipe Line from Iran via Lotastaan – About USD 4 Billion 2. Cost of Transit Dues in Iran : USD 600 Million Annually (I have assumed that Iran would also put a Transit Cost same as Lotastaan. 3. Cost of Transit Dues in Lotastaan : USD 600 Million Annually 4. The Pipe Line would Transport 2 Billion Standard Cubic Feet of Gas per day. This equates to be equal to about 15 Million Tons of LNG Annually. 5. From the cost of building the Pipe Line I would allow USD 300 Million in Interest and Depreciation. I would use the Depreciation for Repayment of the Original Capital. 6. Thus the cost of Transporting the Natural Gas equates to a Figure of USD 1.5 Billion Annually i.e. say a figure of USD 100 per Ton of LNG. BB : Approximate Cost Analysis of Transporting Natural Gas in the form of LNG by an LNG Carrier : 1. Cost of Liquefaction : About USD 1 per Million BTU i.e. USD 52 per Ton of LNG. 2. Cost of Transporting the LNG from Qatar-Iran to Northern Portion of West Coast India i.e. Mumbai-Kandla Range : USD 0.26per Million BTU i.e. USD 13.52 per Ton of LNG. 3. Cost of Re-Gasification : USD 0.40 per Million BTU i.e. USD 20.80 per Ton. 4. Thus total cost of Transporting Natural Gas in the form of LNG including Re-Gasification : USD 1.66 per Million BTU i.e. USD 86.32 There is one item that I have not included for the Natural Gas Pipe Line i.e. The Insurance Premium for its passage via Iran which I expect to be reasonable and the Insurance Premium for passing through Lotastaan which I expect to be “horrendous”. I have also not allowed for the “Cost of maintenance and most Important the cost to ensure the Safety and Security of the Pipe Line” through Lotastaan against Lotastaani-Islamic Terrorists. As far as the LNG is concerned the costs at the Liquefaction Plant, Sea Freight and Re-Gasification include the costs of Insurance Premium are included in the above Estimates. CC : The only figures I could be wrong are (a) Transit Costs for Iran – Iran might not charge anything (b) Liquefaction Costs © Re-Gasification Costs. Of course items (b) and © are as per guidance from friends in the Gas Industry. I may get more accurate information later but fellow members are requested to find as much information as possible. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jun 9 2004, 04:32 PM
Nov Election date is just few months away..... Dead include nine armymen, eight FC personnel, four foreign militants and four local tribesmen
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 10 2004, 12:48 AM
Posting here as the Taleban is nothing but a Lotastaani Entity : At least 11 Chinese aid workers have been killed in Afghanistan, in what China's official Xinhua news agency called a "terrorist attack". Another six Chinese were reported wounded, one critically. The attack occurred at 0100 (2030GMT Wednesday) in Kunduz, where the men were building a road. "About 20 armed terrorists rushed into the Chinese construction site ... and opened fire at Chinese workers," the agency reported. “Safe” areas Security guards are said to have exchanged fire with the attackers. Many of the workers had barely been in Afghanistan for a week. The motive behind the attack - one of the bloodiest yet on foreigners in Afghanistan - is not clear. However, recent months have seen a steady rise in the targeting of foreigners by suspected sympathisers of the deposed Taleban regime. Last week, three Europeans and two Afghans working for the Medecins sans Frontieres aid agency were ambushed and killed by gunmen in north-western Afghanistan, an area that was broadly regarded as safe from extremists. Rare targets China reopened its embassy in Kabul in 2002, after an interval of almost a decade during the heavy fighting between the Taleban and other factions. China's ambassador to Afghanistan, Sun Yuxi, was reportedly on his way to the scene of the attack. Northern Afghanistan is seen as one of the most stable areas of the country with about 200 German peacekeepers based in Kunduz. Attacks on Chinese abroad are rare, but last month a car bomb exploded in the Pakistani city of Gwadar, killing three Chinese engineers who were working on a project to expand port facilities. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf described that attack as a "barbaric act of terrorism". Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 10 2004, 12:54 AM KARACHI: At least six people including policemen were killed in the firing over an official jeep in Clifton area of Karachi on Thursday morning. I.G. Sindh Police had confirmed killing of four men in the attack. The area was cordoned off after the firing. The jeep having six men within was heading towards Saddar from Teen Talwar area. Unknown gunmen attacked the jeep with indiscriminate firing as the jeep crossed PSO House heading towards Clifton Bridge. The attackers escaped from the scene after the attack, eyewitnesses said. Earlier, I.G. Sindh Police had confirmed killing of four men in the attack. An explosive device also went off near the Clifton Bridge in a garbage dump after the incident but no losses were reported. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 10 2004, 02:47 AM
MULTAN: The activists of an extremist outfit Harkat-ul-Jihad Islami killed British teacher Alan Cox, said one of the four investigation teams assigned to probe the mysterious killing.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 10 2004, 05:54 AM
Meanwhile further improvement Back at the Ranch : Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 10 2004, 08:32 AM
Suddenly all these kids are having good time in Karachi. Why suddenly festivity at this level? Any clue. In last one week over 50 people met 72 houris.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 10 2004, 03:51 PM RAWALPINDI – In wake of attack on Corps Commander, Karachi on Thursday, security was beefed up to an unprecedented level on separate probable routes of President General Pervez Musharraf leading to the Army House. Strict surveillance backed up by a heavy deployment of operatives belonging to police and other security and law enforcing agencies was also visible at these routes till the filing of this report which started earlier before the sunset. Senior police officers including the District Police Officer Syed Moravet Ali Shah were also on patrol for keeping a vigilant eye on the affairs in order to avoid any untoward incident. A large number of policemen were also deputed on President routes in plain clothes. A number of roof tops falling the way were also heavily guarded. Besides these measures, Army personnel were also patrolling and were scanning all the bridges and deserted areas with sophisticated metal and explosive detectors. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 11 2004, 01:37 AM
Posted by: Arun Jun 11 2004, 06:31 AM
Another compilation, but this one just restricted to terrorist events starting May in Karachi : Meanwhile back in FATA: With Sindh and lately FATA hogging all the limelight, Balochistan sends a reminder. Jamali’s hometown, amongst others, comes under attack. All casualties caused subsequent to the attack by an overzealous constabulary : Certainly not the first such incident in Balochistan after the high profile attack on the Chinese at Gwadar. A pretty comprehensive list of news links on Baloch endeavors is available on which defines its mission as, “trying to tell the world about the inequality and oppression of the Baloch people by Pakistan and its tyrant Punjabi institutions.” Moral support for Baloch endeavors may be left at the sites guest book
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 11 2004, 11:09 AM ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 11 2004, 08:35 PM ... Thousands of Pakistani troops backed by Cobra helicopter gunships targetted the camp and two Al-Qaeda hideouts near Shakai valley in South Waziristan, military spokesman Major General Shaukat Sultan said, killing at least five more militants and raising the death toll from three days of clashes to 58. "We have retrieved five bodies of militants. Others are lying on the ground," Sultan told a news conference at army headquarters in Rawalpindi .....
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 12 2004, 11:15 AM II. COMMUNICATION a) Information Technology (IT) In the 21st century, the importance of the use of information and communication technologies (ICT’s) cannot be overstated. As a primary initiative the government decided to spread IT literacy throughout Pakistan by equipping schools, colleges and universities with computer labs and by initiating training programs for teachers in IT. An indicator of the government’s success in spreading the use of IT is the Internet. The spreading of Internet access in Pakistan has been phenomenal, and internet has spread to more than 1812 cities, towns and villages across Pakistan. IT charges have also come down to an affordable level. More than 700 IT companies had been established by 2003, generating an estimated revenue of US $ 20 million during 2002-03. Local software companies participated in 7 international exhibitions through a project approved by the Ministry of IT which resulted in MOU’s worth US $ 16.3 million being signed between the software companies and international clients. Contracts worth US $ 4 million have materialized so far. Pakistan Software Export Board (PSEB): PSEB provided opportunities to local IT companies to participate in international exhibitions in the year 2002-03. Apart from international exhibitions, domestic exhibitions along with focused conferences of international standards were arranged in Karachi resulting in the awarding of contracts worth more than Rs. 38 Million. The Pakistan Software Export Board Ltd. has a membership base of more than 750 companies. These companies deal in various areas ranging from software development services to IT enabled services. Software exports from Pakistan for the last five years, reported by State Bank of Pakistan, are tabulated below Table-14.9. Table 14.9 Export of Software Fiscal Year Million US $ 1999-2000 18.2 2000-01 20.1 2001-02 20.8 2002-03 22.5 July-Mar 2003-04 22.0 Source: State Bank of Pakistan The paragraph on IT states More than 700 IT companies had been established by 2003, generating an estimated revenue of US $ 20 million during 2002-03. The paragraph on PSEB states Export of Software : Fiscal Year 2002-03 US $ 22.5 Million. How can the Lotastaanis Software Industry generate an estimated revenue of USD 20 Million and Export Software to the tune of USD 22.5 Million? unsure.gif Cheers
Posted by: k.ram Jun 12 2004, 07:21 PM
Write directly to Mr Aman Malik at amanmalik000@h.... He is a journalism student in New Delhi. ======================================= Dear All, The following are the questions that I would like to put forth to you all. I am putting forth a single set of questions to respondents belonging to various religious denominations from either country. I first thought of segregating the questions basing on national and religious identities, but scraped the idea later, as I think that each respondent should know what the other is being asked and also because there might be some instances where some respondents might want to answer such questions that may not be directly pertinent to them, but about which they may be knowledgeable, nonetheless. You may choose to answer any number of questions and you may choose to give academic or journalistic responses. The following questions are specifically addressed to those who belong to minority faiths in their respective countries. Others might want to give their views as well. Views of journalists and social activists, in this regard are specially welcome. 1) Being a religious minority in your country, how, in your opinion, does the majority group perceive you? Does religion often figure in your daily dealings with your peers or others who may belong to the majority group? 2) Have you ever had a feeling of being treated as a `second grade citizen' in your country? If yes, can you give specific examples? 3) What is the general level of awareness among the members of your religious community vis-à-vis social and political issues of the day? 4) What is the level of participation, according to you, of your community, in the national life of your country? Is there any reservation for them either in the national or provincial parliaments or in government and private jobs? 5) What, if any, is the backlash that is faced by your community when communal riots, targeted at those practicing the same faith as yours, occur across the border? 6) Comment on the kind of relationship you share with your relatives who may be residing across the border. 7) Could you comment on why your family stayed back during the partition of 1947, knowing well that in future, they or their descendents may face adverse situations owing to their faith? 8) What is the condition of your places of worship? Does the state or majority community around you help you maintain them and do they partake in your religious festivities? Do you have facilities to dispose off the deceased members of your community? (THIS MIGHT SOUND GROSS, BUT AS I UNDERSTAND, FOR THE HINDU COMMUNITY IN THE PUNJAB PROVINCE OF PAKISTAN, IT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM) 9) If any of you have traveled across the border as the representative of your country or in any other capacity, what has been the reaction of your hosts, most of whom might follow the same faith as yours? 10) Any other comments you may want to make about anything that you feel strongly about. Most of you certainly belong to the "privileged" section of your respective societies. So please be as objective in your outlook as possible while answering the above questions. General questions, specifically intended for journalists and majority groups. Others may want to respond as well. 1) Is it true in your opinion that majority of Pakistanis in general view India as " Hindu India"? Do they know that The Indian construction says that India is a secular state and minority rights are protected? 2) In an analogous manner, does the majority of Indians view Pakistan as a Muslim state with strict Islamic laws? Are the vast majority of those with whom you have interacted in India aware that a sizable Christian population lives in Pakistan? 3) Till many years after partition, Pakistan, though formed on a basis of religion, was a secular state and if I am not wrong, it was only in the 70's that it became an Islamic state? How do you view the "Islamisation" of Pakistan? 4) Please comment briefly on the two-nation theory and its significance in today's day and age. 5) How are Gandhi and Jinnah perceived in Pakistan and India respectively by the civil society? 6) It is often reported in the Indian media that the Pakistani education system reflects some sections of the minorities in a bad light? Please comment. 7) What has been the reaction in Pakistan to the recent appointment of Mr. Singh as Prime Minister and the fact that India has a Muslim President, who was also our chief missile man? 8) Could you give me examples of non-Muslim Pakistanis who may have risen to some of the highest positions in that country? (Justice Patel is one example) These questions are being sent to: Indians: Tavleen Singh, Seema Mustafa, John Dayal, Swapan Dasgupta, Manpreet Singh Gill, Stephen Gill Pakistanis: Amit Pinjani, Khalid Hasan, Donald Joshua, Fiza Chaudhry Warm regards, Aman Malik India [Copy paste these questions into your mailbox and reply them to amanmalik000 @ ]
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 13 2004, 01:43 AM pakee.gif
ISLAMABAD: Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz said on Saturday that the overall public debt had declined from 108.5 percent of the GDP in 2000-01 to 85 percent of the GDP in 2003-04.
In 2002-2001 Pakistan’s GDP was about USD 60 Billion : Thus a Public Debt of 108% Equated to USD 64.8 Billion In 2003-2004 Pakistan’s GDP is USD 95 Billion : Thus a Public Debt of 85% Equates to USD 80.75 Billion. As such Pakistan’s Foreign Debt has increased by about 24.6 per cent in a period of Three Years in Monetary Terms. However if the old method of calculations was used Pakistan’s GDP would have been about USD 72.6 and with this figure the Public Debt of USD 80.75 Billion would equate to 111.2 per cent CON MAN HO TO AISA liar.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 14 2004, 04:46 PM pakee.gif * Violent protests break out at all three stock exchanges * Govt might have suffered Rs 22b loss * Some brokers doubt assurance by Aziz
KARACHI: The Karachi stock market plunged 166.91 points or 3.1 percent in share trade on Monday as violent protests broke out at all three stock exchanges against the imposition of a 0.1 percent capital value tax (CVT) on the purchase of shares. With this plunge in the share trade, Rs 44 billion were wiped out from market capitalisation in a day. It is usually estimated that 50% of the losses are borne by private investors and 50% by the government given the government’s shareholdings in listed companies.
Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Bhootnath Jun 15 2004, 05:20 AM Where would Pakistan, India and South Asia be today had these three things not happened? What if the partition of the subcontinent of British India had not resulted in such a massive transfer of populations between the successor states of Pakistan and India? What if the Kashmir problem had not been created by the way the British chose to partition their Indian empire? What if India had reconciled itself quickly to the creation of a Muslim state on its northwestern and northeastern borders?
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 16 2004, 07:57 AM clap.gif thumbup.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Sunder Jun 16 2004, 08:45 AM WASHINGTON: An official report into the September 11, 2001 attacks said on Wednesday that Pakistan helped the Taliban regime in Afghanistan to give a haven to al-Qaeda in the face of international pressure. The report from the official investigation into the attacks by al-Qaeda on New York and Washington said that Pakistan broke with the Taliban only after September 11, even though it knew the Afghan militia was hiding al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. "The Taliban's ability to provide bin Laden a haven in the face of international pressure and UN sanctions was significantly facilitated by Pakistani support," the report said. Pakistan benefitted from the Taliban-al-Qaeda relationship, as bin Laden's camps trained and equipped fighters for Pak-sponsored activities in Kashmir, according to the report. In another revelation, the panel said that Saddam Hussein had little to do with al-Qaida. Osama bin Laden did meet a top Iraqi official in 1994 but that it found "no credible evidence" of a link between Iraq and al-Qaida in attacks against the US.
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jun 16 2004, 04:45 PM Does not matter what TSP did or whom she screwed around with in the past. It is all nice and fine with uncle and he has presented her the wedding ring- from girl friend to wife she transits clap.gif
Major non-NATO allies are eligible for priority delivery of defense material and the purchase, for instance, of depleted uranium anti-tank rounds. They can stockpile US military hardware, participate in defense research and development programs and benefit from a US government loan guarantee program, which backs up loans issued by private banks to finance arms exports.
We can expect the Momeen to begin their fireworks soon with the weak Indian govt. we may start betting on when Kargil II will begin.
Posted by: Dr. S. Kalyan Jun 17 2004, 02:21 PM
Secy. Colin Powell thinks that US State Department is sarvaprajna and knows everything and can control everything in Paki. What is the use of this 9/11 Commission and the pompous deliberations? Why is the Congres turning the Nelson's eye to the skullduggery of the State Dept.? Good luck, Uncle Sam. Don't weep after a nuclear 9/11. There may not be many left with capability to weep in New York. Kalyanaraman Asia Times, June 4, 2004 Pakistan's forgotten al-Qaeda nuclear link By Kaushik Kapisthalam Novelists Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins, authors of such bestsellers as City of Joy and Is Paris burning?, have just written a new novel titled Is New York Burning? whose plot involves al-Qaeda members, with help from a Pakistan army major, successfully smuggling a Pakistani nuclear device into New York and then using it to try to blackmail the United States into stopping support for Israel. The Pakistani jihadi group that plays a big part in the plot is called Lashkar-e-Tibi. Even fiction writers have now started connecting the dots linking Pakistan's nuclear establishment, its home-grown jihad groups and the possibility of an al-Qaeda nuclear attack overseas. But US authorities seem curiously blase about this threat and still appear to be content with the old shibboleths about the "inviolability" of Pakistan's nuclear program. The ones who met Osama bin Laden In late 2001, US officials investigating the activities of Osama bin Laden discovered that the al-Qaeda head had contacted some Pakistani nuclear experts for assistance in making a small nuclear device. US officials sought two veteran Pakistani nuclear scientists in particular, Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood and Abdul Majid, for interrogation. The two admitted working in Afghanistan in recent years, but said they had only been providing "charitable assistance" to Afghans. Mahmood was no low-level scientist. He was one of Pakistan's foremost experts in the secret effort to produce plutonium for atomic weapons. In 1999 he publicly said that Pakistan should help other Islamic nations build nuclear weapons. He also made some public statements in support of the Taliban movement. After more interrogation, both Mahmood and Majid admitted that they had met with bin Laden and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri during their visits to Afghanistan and held long "theoretical" discussions on nuclear weapons. Then the trail went cold. After months in Pakistani custody, both Mahmood and Majid were quietly released. Fearing that Mahmood's charity organization, Ummah Tameer e-Nau, could be a front for al-Qaeda, the US government placed the entity in its terrorist list and designated Mahmood himself "a global terrorist". Pakistan's government never put the two scientists on trial, and they are free men today. The ones who got away In December 2001, the New York Times reported that while US authorities were investigating Mahmood and Majid, they found some links between al-Qaeda and two other Pakistani nuclear scientists, Suleiman Asad and Muhammed Ali Mukhtar. Both Asad and Mukhtar had long experience at two of Pakistan's most secret nuclear-weapons-related installations. However, before US investigators could reach them, Pakistan sent the two scientists to Myanmar on an unspecified "research project". The New York Times also quoted Pakistani officials as saying that President General Pervez Musharraf personally telephoned one of Myanmar's military rulers to ask him to provide temporary asylum for the two nuclear specialists. In January 2002, the Wall Street Journal reported that Asad and Mukhtar were possibly aiding Myanmar's efforts to build a 10-megawatt nuclear "research reactor". Asad and Mukhtar are still in Myanmar, well away from US reach. The Lashkar-Nuke link Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is a terrorist group based in Muridke, Pakistan. Although founded by the chief promoter of the Afghan jihad and bin Laden mentor, Sheikh Abdullah Azzam, LeT claims ousting India from Kashmir as its main goal. But experts say LeT shared training camps with al-Qaeda and that many al-Qaeda-linked Afghan-Arabs have been found fighting for LeT in Indian-administered Kashmir. The LeT fought on the side of the Taliban in Afghanistan as well. An Australian named David Hicks, who was picked up by coalition forces in Afghanistan and who is now in Guantanomo prison in Cuba, was trained by LeT. LeT has also provided training for jihadis from Southeast Asia, Central Asia and Chechnya. In December 2001, the US banned LeT after it was implicated in a terrorist attack on India's parliament. Pakistan subsequently banned LeT in January 2002, but allowed it to operate under a new name - Jamaat-ud-Dawa. Prior to being banned, LeT used to hold massive annual conclaves in Pakistan, preaching jihad against India, Israel and the United States. Today, it is widely believed that LeT is operating as a global al-Qaeda "franchisee", even though it is still active in Indian Kashmir. In a sensational claim, French journalist and author Bernard Henri-Levy stated that Pakistan's disgraced "father" of the nuclear bomb, Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan, was in fact a member of LeT. What is definite is that Khan did attend the last openly held LeT moot, in April 2001, as an honored guest. Accompanying Khan on the dais was none other than Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, the plutonium expert who met bin Laden. According to the South Asia Analysis Group, bin Laden himself was known to address LeT annual meets over the phone for many years, even when he was hiding in Afghanistan and Sudan. Despite being banned, the Pakistani media have frequently reported that LeT has openly collected funds under its new name. Pakistani authorities have allowed LeT's leader or "emir", Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, to barnstorm Pakistan, calling for jihad against the United States, in particular. In the recent past, Saeed has stated in his public meetings and rallies that Pakistan's nuclear weapons should be used to benefit all Islamic nations and that Pakistan must share its nukes with such nations as Iran and Saudi Arabia. More alarming, in a 2002 statement Saeed released to the LeT website, he claimed that people loyal to his organization "control two nuclear missiles". He is claimed to have said that the two missiles with warheads would be used against "enemies of Islam". In 2002, top al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaida was arrested from a LeT safe house in Faisalabad, Pakistan. Pakistani officials did not, however, arrest LeT leader Hameedullah Khan Niazi, who had housed Zubaida. In late 2003, the brother of Indonesian terrorist Hambali and many of his Indonesian and Malaysian associates were also arrested from a LeT-owned seminary in Karachi. In what is now known in the United States as the "Virginia Jihad" conspiracy, nine terrorist suspects were recently arrested from Maryland, Virginia and Pennsylvania. The men were later convicted on terrorism-related charges. As per the indictment, all were members of LeT and trained in LeT camps in Pakistan. Last October, a French-born terrorist named Willie Brigitte was arrested in connection with his actions in Australia. Brigitte admitted to be a member of LeT. Australian police later arrested a Pakistani architect - Faheem Lodhi, who was also a member of LeT, and was supposedly Brigitte's co-conspirator in a plot to conduct a major terrorist attack in Australia. Reports indicate that Lodhi's and Brigitte's target was supposedly the electrical grid. Other targets considered included the Lucas Heights nuclear research center outside Sydney and various military facilities and natural-gas pipelines. It is also known that both Lodhi and Brigitte received funds and took orders from a mid-to-high-level LeT member in Pakistan named Sheikh Sajid. More alarming, Brigitte told interrogators that he had personally seen a Chechen chemical-weapons expert named Abu Salah experiment with chemical weapons in an LeT camp in Pakistan. Why the Pakistan threat is real Despite all the ominous-sounding facts mentioned above, some readers might wonder whether the Pakistan nuclear-terrorism threat is a credible one. Indeed, some analysts do feel that the idea of Pakistan's nuclear warheads falling into the hands of terrorist groups such as LeT is an exaggeration. After all, it is widely believed that Pakistan's nuclear weapons are under the secure safekeeping of the nation's army, the only institution in Pakistan that is supposedly free of al-Qaeda influence. But is that really so? Just recently, Musharraf revealed that some "junior" Pakistani army and air force officers had colluded with al-Qaeda terrorists in the two attempts on his life last December. The Pakistani newspaper the Daily Times revealed that the "junior officers" referred to by Musharraf may include an army captain, three majors, a lieutenant-colonel and a colonel. This is extremely significant. While many retired Pakistani generals and intelligence chiefs have openly associated with groups such as al-Qaeda, their actions have been glossed over because they weren't in active service. But when we know that serving Pakistani military officers have been conducting joint operations with al-Qaeda, the possibility of a Pakistani nuclear device falling into the hands of al-Qaeda appears more credible. Even if al-Qaeda never gets hold of a Pakistani nuclear warhead, thanks to US technical safeguards, the possibility of it building a Pakistani-designed radiation dispersal device or a "dirty bomb" looks plausible. A recent analysis by US nuclear experts David Albright and Holly Higgins found strong evidence that Pakistani nuclear scientists Sultan Mahmood and Abdul Majid "provided significant assistance to al-Qaeda's efforts to make radiation dispersal devices". Therein lies the most overlooked Pakistani threat - the knowledge in the heads of nuclear experts sympathetic to the jihad movement, and jihadi groups with weapons-of-mass-destruction ambitions such as LeT operating secure facilities and training camps in Pakistan with only the most minimal of restraints. Assuming that the US might be secretly monitoring Pakistani nuclear fuel and weapons sites, such actions would not be enough to prevent, for instance, radioactive materials stolen from the former Soviet Union by Chechen LeT members and delivered to Pakistan, packaged into a dirty bomb designed by a Pakistani nuclear scientist (or an improvised nuclear device based on a Pakistani warhead design) in an LeT compound and delivered by a Pakistani-trained Western citizen taking orders from a handler in Karachi or Lahore. For those who are skeptical of such a scenario it is worthwhile to recall that there have been reports of every one of its individual elements over the past three years, including the smuggling of radioactive and fissile material in to the region. This March, Tajik authorities arrested a man with a small quantity of plutonium that he allegedly planned to sell in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Indeed, Pakistan remains the single most important country of focus in preventing an attack using a dirty bomb or even an improvised nuclear device. Even before September 11, 2001, al-Qaeda had been interested in launching suicide attacks on nuclear reactors, turning them in effect into huge dirty bombs. For instance, in a 2002 interview with alJazeera reporter Yosri Fouda at a secret location in Karachi, September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his associate Ramzi bin al-Shibh claimed that the September 11 attacks were originally going to target nuclear reactors, but they "decided against it for fear it would go out of control". Scientists and engineers from Pakistan's nuclear program could provide essential advice that could make the difference between success and failure. For instance, Sultan Mahmood, who played an important role in the construction of Pakistan's Khushab nuclear reactor, could have given specific tips to terrorists on how to breach nuclear reactors. Unlearning the lessons of September 11 This summer is slated to be a period of high tension for the West, the United States in particular, with multiple threats of terrorist attacks by al-Qaeda and its affiliates, according to US officials. As horrific as the September 11 attacks on the US were, many terrorism experts have been warning that the next al-Qaeda attacks could be much worse. Even as the US struggles to deal with the aftermath of a war to remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq, where the threat from weapons of mass destruction was highly ambiguous, it appears that US policymakers are unresponsive to a more alarming threat from Pakistan. Kaushik Kapisthalam is a freelance journalist based in the United States. (Copyright 2004 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact for information on our sales and syndication policies.)
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 17 2004, 04:01 PM pakee.gif
Before this time, General Ziaul Haq had pampered Afghan refugees scandalously, because they had converted him from a parish for the Western states into their blue-eyed boy.
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Posted by: Viren Jun 18 2004, 11:33 AM
From TOI:
After a long pause, the slogans of Khalistan and venomous speeches against India were once again made by the Sikh hard-line leaders during the religious speeches made from Gurdwara platforms in Pakistan on the visit of Indian Sikh jatha that had gone there to observe martyrdom day of Guru Arjun Dev
Posted by: Ram Jun 19 2004, 11:33 AM
Friends, Back after a long time. But one of the most depressing news I've ever read. Imagine sitting down and talking 'nuclear confidence building measures' with a bunch of abominable Paki terrorist scum. Thats exactly whats going. Please read this India Paki dead equal equal report from BBC
Posted by: Viren Jun 19 2004, 12:29 PM
Mulla Fazal-ur-Reheman (Pak leader of a pro-Taliban party) now on TV interview and he mentions something like: The tribals and foreigners in Wana were finanaced by pak govt for past 20 years. They were armed by Pak Govt for past 20 years. They were given asylum and shelter for past 20 years by Pak Govt. All of a sudden they are now declared as terrorists and hunted down like criminals !! Duh !! BTW, looks like the Bakwasi Querishi is gone the new guy Sultan can articulate better.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 19 2004, 12:34 PM
Ram, Short sightness of Indian politicians, they always want to play defensive. Well it will serve two purpose, India will expose its nuclear programme to rest of world and Paki nukes are already scrapped, So this effort will enhance its H&D.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 19 2004, 04:12 PM Opposition claims poverty on the rise; wants focus on agriculture sector ISLAMAWORST : The opposition parliamentarians targeted Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz in the National Assembly on Saturday and demanded of him to first visit the remote and poor villages of the country and stay there to assess the real level of poverty. One MP even challenged the finance minister to even taste water from district Kasur where people are dying because polluted water. The opposition benches grilled the finance minister and his fiscal policies, which according to them were made on the basis of wrong figures cooked up in the air-conditioned rooms in Islamabad by those who have never visited any village in their life. PPPP MNA Malik Manzoor Ahmed was exceptionally harsh on the finance minister and his policies during debate on the budget. He said how could the finance minister assess the level of poverty by sitting in Islamabad. He said he would not dare to visit a village, what to say spend a night there, among the villagers who enjoy no basic facility. The member lamented that the number of poor in rural areas was on the rise. He said every year 2.5 million young people were being added to the long list of jobless people. So, he said, even if for a moment one believes the tall claim of finance minister that this year one million people will get jobs because of the substantial allocation for the Public Sector Development Programme, it will not make much difference to the situation, as 1.5 million would still be added to the list of jobless. He said almost every second man in rural areas is living below the poverty line. He questioned why the finance minister fail to understand that with agriculture sector performing poorly this year, more rural people would be rendered poor. He elaborated that agriculture had a deep impact on the socio- economic scene . He said only in the month of May at least 137 people committed suicide because of poverty. He said how could we thus claim there was economic boom in our country because of ‘radical policies’ of the finance minister. He warned that if something was not done to arrest the alarming poverty trends, the ruling and privileged classes would face consequences in the days to come. Former president Farooq Leghari taking part in debate praised the socio economic policies of the finance minister. But, he reminded him to do more to achieve the ambitious goals and to focus more on agriculture development. He also expressed his dissatisfaction over the farmers’ package and said that reduction in DAP prices alone would not address the problems of the farmers whose sufferings were terrible. He said the agriculture sector needed more concessions from government. He lamented that the cooperative moment that could help the small farmers was gradually dying due to lack of support from any quarter. Leghari also asked finance minister to execute the corporate farming laws so that new investment and new technology should come to Pakistan. He said actually the farmers were plundered by the ADBP by charging from them higher interst rates. Cheers
Posted by: Arun Jun 19 2004, 08:30 PM
Two excerpts, same article:
Posted on Thu, Jun. 17, 2004 By David Rohde New York Times ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Al-Jazeera, the Arabic-language television network based in Qatar, broadcast Wednesday what it said was a new videotape showing Al-Qaida members receiving military training at a camp in Afghanistan. A leading terrorism expert said the scenes appeared to be authentic, but it was more likely that training was occurring inside Pakistan's remote tribal areas. The video, if genuine, would be the first evidence that Al-Qaida had regrouped sufficiently to carry out training operations inside Afghanistan or Pakistan since the United States toppled the Taliban in 2001. It was broadcast a day after President Bush, welcoming Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Washington, declared that the United States had won a major victory in the war against terrorism by denying Al-Qaida a safe refuge in Afghanistan..........................
Bergen said the nighttime attack scenes might have been faked but that he believed the training was real and probably occurring in Pakistan's remote tribal areas, near the Afghan border. ``It's hard to tell which side of the border, but I think it is more likely to be on the Pakistan side,'' he said. ``I think the U.S. Army has a better grip on Afghanistan than the Pakistani army has on Pakistan.'' ..................
Posted by: Mudy Jun 19 2004, 10:34 PM
Why in tribal area, i can bet they must be getting training in Islama-bad, La-hore, Karachi? Paki Army is busy fooling Amrika for last 3 years.
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jun 19 2004, 10:43 PM
With the Non-NATo al-lie status for TSP, I believe all this has become official. Mushy may have told Bushy that it is only training for a future big bang on Easter borders of TSP. Bushy would have winked and said, great, that fits my 0-sum plans well. Now sources in the army inform us that Sarp Vinash while official over, is still actually underway in full swing and they are busy helping the faithful meet their 72 gals and 18 boys. So all this Al Qaeda training business is hardly surprising.
Posted by: Ram Jun 20 2004, 12:32 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 20 2004, 01:04 AM)
Ram, Short sightness of Indian politicians, they always want to play defensive. Well it will serve two purpose, India will expose its nuclear programme to rest of world and Paki nukes are already scrapped, So this effort will enhance its H&D.
I am not so sure about Pakis being de-nuked. Uncle then looses a big lever to whip India with. After Pakis were caught with their pants down, peddling nukes for missiles, I was shocked to hear the non-proliferation ayathollahs drag India into the cauldron. But on closer examination their strategy made eminent sense. From their perspective, a nuke-nood Pakis would mean that the P-5 would have to deal with India on equal terms. India can then say you big boys de-nuke, and India will too. In other words India would be in the same league. This is something that the racists in Washington, London, Paris, and the commies in Beijing cannot accept, and hence a few nukes in the hands of Paki terrorists who threaten India serves the dual purpose of de-nuking both India and Pakis at the same time. The 'nuclear flashpoint' crap can be repeated ad nauseum whenever terrorist'n chief Musa, remote controlled by Bush, unleash the jihadi scum on India and India cries foul.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 20 2004, 02:53 PM pakee.gif Suspected local tribesmen in south-west Pakistan have wrecked an airport in a rocket attack on the country's biggest natural gas field, police say. The unidentified assailants fired more than 20 rockets at the airport building in the town of Sui in Balochistan province, security officials said. The airport belonged to a state-run gas company, Pakistan Petroleum. Correspondents say local tribesmen are in dispute with the company over royalties from the gas fields. During the raid on Saturday night, the assailants opened fire on paramilitary Frontier Corps soldiers who were guarding the airport and the gas pipeline. They retaliated, but it was not clear whether any of the attackers had been hurt, according to local police officials. The officials said the small two-room airport building was totally destroyed by the rocket barrage. Some reports say the attackers had planted explosives around the wall of the building. The Lotastaanis cannot protect an Airport so how are they going to protect a Natural Gas Pipe Line? Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 20 2004, 05:23 PM
Suspected local tribesmen in south-west Pakistan have wrecked an airport in a rocket attack on the country's biggest natural gas field, police say.
After reading lot of stories about machoo tribals or Balooch or Punjabi or Sindi, Shia of Pakistan or whatever, My conclusion, all belongs to peedi category. All these stories are myth, these people can't do anything. Niether they care about so called H&D. Paki Army made up of elite class exploiting them day in day out, they don't care about them but these so called mythological class walk with tails inside and head down and worshilp Paki elite hero. These peedi class do some little firework here and there and get 72 houris and end of stories. They need Gandhi. I was under impression we will see some action, real action but all are for story books. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 22 2004, 03:44 PM Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 23 2004, 04:14 AM pakee.gif Washington: The United States continues to press Pakistan to tighten nuclear export controls to prevent any future black market proliferation, Assistant Secretary of State Christina Rocca has said. According to Geo, she said Pakistan's nuclear programme still remained under scrutiny after it was linked to a non-proliferation network led by disgraced Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan, adding Washington continued to ask Islamabad for information on the network and investigation was on. " continues and we're working very closely with the government of Pakistan on the investigation," she said in response to a question by democratic representative from New York Gary Ackerman at the House Subcommittee hearing on International Relations. US opposition Democratic legislators have demanded that the Government tie aid to Pakistan with progress it makes on non-proliferation and democratisation Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 23 2004, 09:46 AM
Excellent not to like terrorism with peace talk New Delhi, June 23: The infiltration along the Line of Control (LoC) and international border in Jammu and Kashmir has picked up considerably this month with the figure recording three times the number of 26 witnessed last month.
Posted by: Viren Jun 23 2004, 10:26 AM
Received from Ram Narayanan: There we go again!. Will the US at least desist from offering offensive weapons to Pakistan? If previous history gets repeated, US-India relations will definitely take a zig zag course. Like the Chinese, India will strengthen its economic relations with the US, but forget about any real closeness on other fronts! A pity! It all began in 1954 during the Dulles era!
QUOTE BBC NEWS, JUNE 23, 2004 US rules out Pakistan aid curbs The US State Department has rejected ohmy.gif calls for tighter conditions to be attached to a proposed $3bn American aid package to Pakistan. Opposition Democrats want the aid tied to tighter curbs on Pakistan's nuclear industry after secrets were leaked. They also wanted the aid package to be tied to political reform and closer co-operation in the "war on terror". But the State Department said the US continued to monitor Pakistan's nuclear activities following the leaks scandal. "We don't see any reason - there has been no cause at all for us to have second thoughts about providing any assistance to Pakistan," Christina Rocca, assistant secretary of state for South Asian affairs, told a congressional hearing in Washington. 'Extremely sensitive matter' Democrat lawmaker Gary Ackerman had warned the hearing that the US had failed to extract sufficient guarantees from Pakistan on the issue of nuclear non-proliferation and democratisation. "We are hitching our wagon to a very questionable horse," he said. Earlier this year, Pakistan's top nuclear scientist confessed his role in a black-market network which had enabled countries such as North Korea, Iran and Libya to bypass international controls in their pursuit of nuclear weapons technology. Ms Rocca said the US continued to keep a close eye on Pakistan's nuclear programme. "We're working very closely with the government of Pakistan on the investigation," she said. However, she refused to say whether US authorities had independently interviewed the Pakistani scientist at the centre of the nuclear proliferation scandal, Dr AQ Khan, describing it as "an extremely sensitive matter". Preferred partner US President George W Bush plans to give Pakistan $3bn in aid over five years, starting from 2005. Earlier in June, he accorded Pakistan the status of a major non-Nato ally, making it one of the few countries - alongside South Korea and Israel - that are entitled to generous deals on US military and financial aid. The announcement was widely seen as a reward for Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's co-operation with America's campaign against al-Qaeda and Taleban remnants in the region. In January, Pakistan received a $400m aid deal from the US.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 23 2004, 10:33 AM,00180005.htm
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 23 2004, 02:38 PM thumbup.gif QUETTA (Agencies) - Four explosions rocked Gwadar Wednesday where Chinese engineers are engaged in building a deep-sea port, but caused no casualties or damage. The explosions went off at the gate of port site, a police check post, the officers mess of the Frontier Works Organisation building a coastal highway and the area where a five-star hotel is being built, police officer Mohammed Bashir said. ‘The four explosions in quick succession were heard at about 9:00 am,’ he said adding that the devices contained explosive but no splinters. Residents said they heard large explosions across the town of some 60,000 people. Police were investigating if firecrackers caused the explosions, Bashir said adding that they caused no casualties or damage to the property. ‘The purpose was to create terror in Gwadar,’ he said adding that no arrest had been made so far. Last month three Chinese engineers were killed and nine others wounded when an explosive-laden car blew up as a van carrying 12 Chinese engineers and technicians passed by. China is financing 199 million of the 248-million-dollar Gwadar port project. Police have linked the attack to an ongoing campaign by the people from the less developed Balochistan province for jobs and technical training at the port project. The authorities have detained 15 suspects in connection with the May 4 attack. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 25 2004, 10:32 AM pakee.gif EBRD approves loan for Kazakh-Chinese pipeline link ALMATY: The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) has approved plans for its first loan to Kazakhstan's oil sector, for a pipeline to take oil to China, an EBRD official said on Friday. The EBRD's board has approved lending 81.6 million dollars (67 million euros) to MunaiTas, the Chinese-Kazakh joint operator of the 450-kilometre (280-mile) Kenkiyak-Atyrau pipeline in western Kazakhstan, EBRD spokesman told a foreign news agency. Details of the loan will be made public following its final signing, he said. The Kenkiyak-Atyrau pipeline currently carries oil from western Kazakhstan to the Capsian port city of Atyrau on its way to Russia. In the future, it will become part of a 3,000-kilometer pipeline to be built across Kazakhstan to carry oil from Caspian oil fields to China. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 25 2004, 10:45 AM clap.gif KARACHI: Government of Sindh has imposed ban on the entry of the leader of opposition Maulana Fazalur Rehman and Muttahida Majalis Amal leader Qazi Hussain Ahmed in Sindh. Chief Minister of Sindh, Arbab Ghulam Rahim talking with Geo said the ban was imposed to maintain law and order in the province. “Circumstances are also not ideal in NWFP having MMA government, they should hold peace march there”, Arbab Rahim said. “Peace could not be maintained by the march it needs practical steps”, Sindh CM further said. “Any firing incident during the rallies or processions will create a new problem”, he further said. Replying to a query he said even Muslim League will not be given permission of the march if it gave a call for it. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jun 25 2004, 12:15 PM
AXN, an action channel owned by Sony Pictures Entertainment, said it will launch a search in August for four-member teams from each South Asian nation. They will do battle in an undisclosed East Asian country and the show, called AXN Xtreme, will be broadcast across Asia towards the end of the year. "Competitors from the two teams will face off in a series of challenges that may be held both indoor and outdoor, and which will test the body, mind, spirit, and most of all, the desire to win," an AXN statement said
Posted by: Mudy Jun 26 2004, 08:35 AM,00050002.htm
Potential replacements for Jamali include Commerce Minister Humayun Akhtar Khan, a successful businessman with close links to the military.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 26 2004, 11:06 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 26 2004, 09:05 PM)
Potential replacements for Jamali include Commerce Minister Humayun Akhtar Khan, a successful businessman with close links to the military.
Mudy : I believe Humayun Akhtar Khan's "Phadur" was a "Jurnail" in the Lotastaan Army However as per the BBC Article Chaudry Shujait Hussain has been nominated by Jamali as his interim successor : pakee.gif Jamali is quoted as He said he had been "authorised" to announce Chaudry Shujat Hussain's name. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 26 2004, 10:37 PM
biggrin.gif June 27, 2004 01:37 IST
Hussain confirmed Ahmed's remarks, telling state-run PTV that he has been asked to take over as prime minister until Aziz, who is currently a senator, gets elected to the national assembly. He said Aziz (54), a former Citibank executive, would shortly contest from one of the safe national assembly seats but, until then, would serve as finance minister in his cabinet. "His election could take some time until then I would be the prime minister," Hussain said
Striking similarites between India and Pakistan India's Pupeteer = Sonia Paki's Pupetter = Mushy Extra Consitutional Leader = "Italian" No Consitutuion power = "American" Both are Pupeteers are shameless, only objective is to retian power to themselves or to family member. One say her "inner voice" other says "Allah's voice" biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 29 2004, 03:48 PM ISLAMAWORST : Pakistan Muslim League (PML) Information Secretary Muhammad Siddiqul Farooq on Monday accused Prime Minister in-waiting Shaukat Aziz of providing photographs of Khan’s Research Laboratories (KRL) to the Pentagon and CIA. “The nation does not expect Shaukat Aziz, who represented the United States and provided the CIA and Pentagon with photos of Khan’s Research Laboratories, to promote Pakistan’s national interests,” he said in a press statement. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jun 29 2004, 04:12 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jun 29 2004, 06:48 PM)
Shaukat Aziz of providing photographs of Khan’s Research Laboratories (KRL) to the Pentagon and CIA.
If true, what's this world coming to sad.gif There's no honor among theives! mad.gif wink.gif laugh.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 29 2004, 04:19 PM Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 29 2004, 04:21 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 30 2004, 04:42 AM)
If true, what's this world coming to sad.gif There's no honor among thieves! mad.gif wink.gif laugh.gif
Viren : Of course. In Lotastaan Honour is considered as Haraam. Cheers
Posted by: Arun Jun 30 2004, 01:58 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 27 2004, 11:07 AM)
Striking similarites between India and Pakistan
And IMO some nuanced dissimilarities : Sonia Gandhi : surrendered the citizenship of her country of birth and yet declined to take up a constitutional position in her new country of citizenship. Shaukat Aziz : surrendered the citizenship of his country of birth and yet proposes to take up a constitutional position in his country of birth. Irrespective of my political orientations vis a vis Indian politics, I for one will not feed the Pakistani appetite for equal-equal. And lastly may I say that the last line of your post is truly a zinger!
Posted by: Arun Jun 30 2004, 02:05 AM
Moving onward to other things, CBS News
CBS News Correspondent Bob Orr reports the Department of Homeland Security has issued an alert that warns customs officers at six of America's busiest airports to watch for travelers of Pakistani descent who show physical signs of preparing for terror attacks against the U.S……………
CNN confirms with the appropriately titled story : However report on the same subject is much more explicit on the content of the alert, or as they term it, bulletin, issued by the Department of Homeland Security and helpfully provides these direct quotes :
"recent terrorist activities in other parts of the world document that persons of Pakistani descent are increasingly being identified with many of these extremist activities, including supporting [and] protecting the operations of terrorist training camps in Pakistan." It adds: "Recent police raids and military operations in Pakistan also documents the terrorist-related threat posed by individuals traveling to train at terrorist camps in Pakistan," specifically in the northwestern tribal areas of Waziristan. The bulletin goes on to say that the U.S. government believes that "many of the individuals trained in the Pakistani camps are destined to commit illegal activities in the United States."
Appears the Department of Homeland Security is not buying into the story of Pakistan and Pakistani’s being either moderate, enlightened or major non nato ally. Kudo’s to the Department of Homeland Security for calling a spade a spade.
Posted by: Peregrine Jun 30 2004, 02:37 AM
Two Articles quite similar : Same Writer, but, Different Rag
More importantly, the Musharraf regime, obviously lacking a firm domestic constituency other than the military, needs to capitalise on Mr Aziz’s self-created image as the ‘turnaround’ financial wizard, even though the modest economic achievements of the past five years are more the desert for services rendered by the regime in the war on terror. If, however, the choice of Mr. Aziz is predicated on the vain hope that he would outsmart his Indian counterpart, Dr Manmohan Singh, in either economic savvy or political subtlety, there’s grand disappointment in store for Pakistani kingmakers.
]However, the general is content to let his multi-millionaire finance minister bask in false glory for the sake of advancing military's more vital interests. If, somehow, the general is under the illusion that Mr. Aziz is likely to be a match for the latter's Indian counterpart, Dr Manmohan Singh, in either economic savvy or political astuteness, he should be prepared for a shock.
Posted by: ramana Jun 30 2004, 08:53 AM
Link: EERIE SIMILARITIES - Recent changes in Delhi and Islamabad have not been dissimilar Diplomacy / K.P. Nayar Government changes in south Asia often remind us how dissimilar are the political cultures and practices in the subcontinent, especially in India and Pakistan. This week’s change in government in Islamabad, however, has been different. It has eerie similarities with the recent political changes in New Delhi. Pakistan’s new prime minister, Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain — howsoever interim he may be — is the scion of Pakistan’s third most important political dynasty after the Bhuttos and the Sharif brothers. Like the Nehru-Gandhis on the other side of the border, but quite unlike India’s foremost political dynasty in background or upbringing. Chaudhry Shujaat’s father and the political deity of the family, the late Chaudhry Zahur Elahi, was a mere assistant sub-inspector of police until he realized that serving the “land of the pure” through politics was his real calling. He became what his biographers unanimously call a “seasoned parliamentarian”. Amnesty International named him a “prisoner of conscience” some time before he was murdered in 1981. But along the way, the assistant sub-inspector-of-police-turned-politician also became one of the richest men in Pakistan with ownership of textile factories, sugar mills and agricultural farms. After the senior Chaudhry’s assassination, the now-incoming interim prime minister donned the joint political family’s leadership. His political instincts and cunning surpassed that of his father. After Pakistan’s elections, carefully choreographed by Pervez Musharraf in October 2002, Chaudhry Shujaat was the natural choice for prime ministership. He became president of the “King’s party”, as the Pakistan Muslim League (Qaid-e-Azam) is derisively known in Pakistan, because it was formed by defectors from Nawaz Sharif’s party to support “King” Musharraf in acquiring the fig-leaf of democratic respectability. Chaudhry Shujaat was elected leader of the parliamentary party, making him the obvious choice for prime ministership. Above all, Chaudhry Shujaat showed Musharraf how good he was at splitting his opponents and creating a majority in the national assembly. Therefore, everyone expected Chaudhry Shujaat to be the prime minister of Pakistan in November 2002. Then, out of the blue, he addressed the nation on October 24 that year because he believed he owed the nation an explanation on why he was renouncing the prime ministership of Pakistan when “I have been elected as the parliamentary leader of the single largest party”. He acknowledged that “there has been unrelenting pressure from across the nation and from all quarters that I, being the natural and logical choice to head the new government” should become prime minister. “My family elders saw politics as a vehicle for public service and not for the naked pursuit of power…Today, Pakistan stands at the crossroads. It is time for wisdom and sacrifice. If the larger national interest requires a personal sacrifice, then so be it. For the sake of Pakistan, I am giving up the right to be prime minister of Pakistan when the tradition in the past has been to sacrifice Pakistan for personal political power,” he told a stunned Pakistan. “Lust for power led to the break-up of Pakistan in 1971 and in the continuing jump from crisis to crisis… Make no mistake, I treat this as an amanat. The sole consideration will be the supreme national interest of Pakistan … I hope to see a new dawn of decency and democracy in Pakistan, Inshallah.” More often than not, Pakistan has followed India’s lead in many areas — especially after the end of the Cold War and the collapse of socialism — for reasons that are geographic, economic and geo-political. But as Pakistan gets a new government, and researchers and analysts across the world dig up details about its new prime minister — albeit interim — there will be a realization in foreign offices across the world that for a change, the political process in India after the last elections followed that of Pakistan after its October 2002 poll. Sonia Gandhi’s renunciation of prime ministership in her speech to the Congress parliamentary party on May 18 was eerily similar to Chaudhry Shujaat’s speech to the nation on October 24, 2002. But the recent similarities in the political processes of India and Pakistan do not end there, although, in some respects Pakistan is following India’s lead. In May, India elected an economist who does not fit the traditional mould of a politician as its new prime minister. Pakistan will do the same soon, once its finance minister, Shaukat Aziz, now a senator, is elected to the national assembly: Pakistan’s constitution does not allow a member of the upper house to become prime minister. Like Manmohan Singh a decade ago, Aziz has been instrumental in reforming Pakistan’s economy under Musharraf. No one talks of Pakistan any more as a failed state in economic terms, and the credit for this goes largely to Aziz. Another similarity in the political process, though, is not a source of comfort for Indians. About 10 days ago, The Economist published a story about India, which must have acutely embarrassed a regular Indian reader of that magazine: the prime minister, Manmohan Singh. The story is titled, “India’s tainted ministers: the boys from Bihar”, and chronicles, with more kindness than they deserve, the allegations of corruption, crime and abuse of power by Laloo Prasad Yadav and his ilk. Chaudhry Shujaat and his family could easily match Laloo and his fellow politicians on this score. A documented example of the abuse of power by Chaudhry Shujaat’s family was brought to Musharraf’s attention by the cricketer-turned-politician, Imran Khan, nearly two years ago. Nothing happened. The case cited by Khan involves a loan of Rs 22.792 million written off by Pakistan’s Muslim Commercial Bank four years ago. According to Khan, the State Bank of Pakistan was allegedly involved in a similar write-off of Rs 218.598 million. Both loans were given to Punjab Sugar Mills, where Chaudhry Shujaat, his uncle Chaudhry Mansoor Elahi and cousin Chaudhry Pervez Elahi, the chief minister of Punjab, were all directors. A case filed in Lahore high court by Mian Sajid Pervez, president of Khan’s Tehrik-i-Insaf party, alleged a similar loan write-off by the National Bank of Pakistan to the tune of Rs 37.987 million. Under Pakistani law, if a politician, his spouse or any dependents have not repaid any bank loan of Rs 2 million or above, he would be disqualified from being elected to national or provincial assemblies. It is a testimony to the immense clout of the Chaudhry family that one of its defaulting members has thrived as Punjab’s chief minister while another has become the country’s prime minister. Meanwhile, typifying subcontinental politics, there is no shortage of new, emerging dynasties in Pakistan. Waiting in the wings for Aziz to either fail or become expendable is the trio of sons of former generals. They are Ejaz-ul-Haq, son of Zia-ul-Haq, Gohar Ayub, son of Ayub Khan, and Humayun Akhtar, son of General Akhtar Abdur Rehman, Zia’s ISI chief who was killed along with him in a plane crash. All three sons are suspected by Pakistan’s National Accountability Bureau of having stashed away billions of dollars abroad in ill-gotten wealth, obviously bequeathed to them by their fathers. Of these, Humayun Akhtar, a former commerce minister, is said to be Musharraf’s favourite, who missed being prime minister this time because Chaudhry Shujaat wanted the job and preferred Aziz to succeed him when he goes abroad again shortly for medical treatment.
Posted by: Sunder Jun 30 2004, 01:11 PM (Jun. 30) -- Six major U.S. airports are now under more surveillance by the Department of Homeland Security because of a terror threat. An anonymous source at Homeland Security says they're looking for Pakistanis with physical signs of terrorist training, namely men with rope burns, bruises and scars. This story first broke last night on the CBS Evening News. The network reports customs inspectors are on alert at Newark, Washington Dulles, New York JFK, Detroit, Chicago O'Hare and Los Angeles international airports. Homeland Security officials say they've come up with a list of 38 terrorist connections through background checks of foreign airline crew members and truckers licensed to haul hazardous materials in the U.S. pakee.gif
Posted by: Viren Jul 1 2004, 07:24 AM
B Raman's latest article.
Amongst the controversies which have dogged Aziz since he took over as the Finance Minister in November,1999, are those relating the following: * His nationality: His critics allege he is an American national of Pakistani origin. So was Moeen Quereshi, who became the caretaker Prime Minister after the dismissal of Nawaz Sharif in 1993. Quereshi made no secret of his American nationality. Aziz does not admit it. * His religious background: His critics allege he comes from a family of Ahmediyas, but this is indignantly denied by those close to him. * His proximity to Musharraf: His critics allege that he had helped Musharraf's brother, son and wife in acquiring property in the US and that is how he came to the favourable notice of the General. Neither Aziz nor Musharraf have commented on this. * His proximity to the US: He is projected as the USA's cat's paw. His being used by Musharraf since last year for exercising ostensible civilian supervision over the Kahuta uranium enrichment plant has come in for considerable suspicion as to the real reasons for it. The question often posed is: Did Musharraf himself entrust this task to him or was this suggested wink.gif by the US? * His overseas assets: While filing his nomination for election to the Senate, the upper House of Parliament, in 2002, Aziz had declared his overseas assets as follows: A flat in the UK worth Pakistani Rs10.84 million, an apartment in New York worth Rs10.1 million, a bungalow in the Defense Society, of Karachi, worth Rs3.5 million, a plot in Karachi worth Rs500,000, a bank account in the UK with a balance of 310,000 pounds and another in the US Citibank with a balance of three million dollars. With the help of statements from real estate experts in New York, his critics have allged that his New York flat must be worth at least between five and 10 million US dollars as against the value of US $ 1,75,000 declared by him and demanded an enquiry by the National Accountability Bureau set up by Musharraf to investigate political wrong-doing. They point out that while Musharraf has been getting political leaders belonging to the parties of Benazir and Nawaz harassed by the Bureau on charges of false declaration of assets, he has ignored the charges against Aziz.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 1 2004, 08:59 AM
Musharraf says Pakistan to conduct nuke test Thursday July 1 2004 11:27 IST IANS ISLAMABAD: President Pervez Musharraf has said Pakistan will conduct another nuclear test within the next two months, Xinhua reports. Addressing a news conference at the Presidential Palace here on Wednesday evening, Musharraf said: "I am giving you breaking news that Pakistan will conduct an important nuclear test in the next two months." He, however, refused to give further details and dismissed that Pakistan was engaged in rolling back national nuclear arms program. "Those who think so are just mad, we will never roll back our nuclear programme and would continue developing credible deterrence and missile program," News Network International agency quoted Musharraf as saying. Pakistan had conducted five nuclear tests in May 1998, immediately after India carried out similar tests. International concern on the safety of Islamabad's nuclear programme has been on the rise since a scandal, involving the father of the country's nuclear programme, A. Q. Khan, broke out earlier this year. Khan had confessed to having sold nuclear secrets to Iran, North Korea and Malaysia. URL -
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jul 1 2004, 09:00 AM
Hello all ... Long time..., ANYWAY ... DID YOU GUY'S HEAR ABOUT THE NEWS THAT MUSHY IS PROMISING THE MOTHER OF ALL NUCLEAR TESTS? what is this about ? ohmy.gif unsure.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jul 1 2004, 09:05 AM
Mushy is losing his mind. Well he want to dispel coup attempt. Empty promise on same line "there is terrorist camp in Pakistan".
Posted by: Viren Jul 1 2004, 09:06 AM
From TOI link posted by SSRamachandran (welcome back):
Addressing a news conference at the Pakistan Presidential Palace on Wednesday evening, Musharraf said, "I am giving you breaking news that Pakistan will conduct an important nuclear test in the next two months."
All other news sources are quoting 'big missile tests'. What's going on? Is TOI quoting him verbatim or just making it up on the fly. I trust there's a big difference between the 'big missile tests' versus 'important nuclear test'. Gola's putting on weight that he's to go back on the grass diet again? biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jul 1 2004, 09:08 AM
All news source are quoting "Xinhua reports". Some translation problem here.
Posted by: Viren Jul 1 2004, 09:42 AM
A local news agency admitted Thursday that misinterpretation led to its incorrect report that Pakistan planned to conduct a nuclear test rather than a missile test as mentioned by President Pervez Musharraf on Wednesday President Musharraf said in a press conference Wednesday night that "in two months time Pakistan will conduct a major test." When asked what kind of a test, the president said a missile test. But a reporter for the News Network International reported that Musharraf disclosed Pakistan would conduct a nuclear test
AFAIK, NNI is US based Paki news service
Posted by: sridhar k Jul 1 2004, 08:13 PM
Somebody in BR who saw mushy's interview on TV said that Chief Terrorist mentioned about missile test, while mentioning that there will be no rollback of nuclear weapons program. Dorky media just upped the ante.
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 2 2004, 01:06 AM Another nail in the “Pipe Line through Lotastaan” Coffin Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jul 2 2004, 05:27 AM
Pakistan was accepted into the ARF fold after it assured not to raise Kashmir and other Indo-Pak bilateral issues at the forum.
rolleyes.gif There's a sucker born every minute - P T Barnum
Posted by: Mudy Jul 2 2004, 11:14 AM
It is my Quote - biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Posted by: acharya Jul 2 2004, 01:56 PM
India, Pakistan should prevent arms race: U.S. By Sridhar Krishnaswami WASHINGTON, JULY 2. Taking note of the statement of the Pakistan President, Pervez Musharraf, that he will continue the nuclear programme and test a large missile within two months, the Bush administration is urging both India and Pakistan to take steps to prevent an arms race and to guard against a possible nuclear use. "... We remain deeply concerned about the dangers that continue to be posed by both nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles in South Asia," the State Department's deputy spokesman, Adam Ereli, said in response to a question on the latest comments of Gen. Musharraf. "We continue to urge Pakistan and India to take steps to prevent an arms race and to guard against a possible nuclear use. I would note in this regard we are encouraged that India and Pakistan have just agreed to work towards a number of measures to reduce risks in the region, including a more advanced agreement on notification of missile tests," he said. The spokesman was asked why he was bringing India into the picture for it was Pakistan "that seems to be rattling the cage again;" and if there was anything that India had done recently to elevate Foggy Bottom's concerns. "... There is no marked change in our level of concern regarding this issue. It is an issue we continue to raise with both countries and that I would note that both countries discuss between themselves... and that is a good thing. It is something that we see as a positive development in the sense that sources of tension are being addressed in a bilateral and cooperative way, and that's to be welcomed," he said.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jul 2 2004, 02:29 PM
Hain ??? blink.gif Adam Ereli pe Nutwar ko chood do.. That will teach the b@stards.. argue.gif
Posted by: Krishna Jul 3 2004, 09:32 PM
.................. Referring to the improved sports ties between New Delhi and Islamabad, Tariq said: "It all began with the initiatives of (former Indian prime minister Atal Bihari) Vajpayee and (Pakistani President Pervez) Musharaf, which led to the cricket series earlier this year. "This (golf) tournament is an extension of this initiative," he said. "The trip is self financed by us, except in Himachal Pradesh where we are the guests of the state government," Tariq said. Tariq was born in the Sikh holy city of Amritsar and migrated to Pakistan when India was partitioned in 1947. "I am an avid reader of the Mahabharta and the Gita as these inspire me," Tariq said.
Posted by: Viren Jul 4 2004, 11:12 AM
QUOTE (Krishna @ Jul 4 2004, 12:32 AM)
"I am an avid reader of the Mahabharta and the Gita as these inspire me," Tariq said.
See the Paki generals don't have 'secular' media to worry about while saying such things wink.gif
Posted by: Kumar Jul 4 2004, 01:03 PM
Seems like Pakistanis are more secular than the Secular Nerds in India. tongue.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 6 2004, 11:53 PM
Some Articles need to be posted in Full – This is one of them : Sitting in the midst of an idyllic tropical forest by a white sandy beach on Koh Samui in Thailand, one can almost forget the ground realities at home and across the globe. But the TV is there and thoughts continue to turn to Pakistan with two contrasting moods dominating: One, anger alongside a deep sorrow, and, two regrets of the most profuse kind. The first mood is brought on by the news one hears here on the electronic media. For instance on the 3rd of July, one was confronted with the BBC’s Asia Today programme on deported Pakistanis from the US. The Pakistani official who was responsible for overseeing their return was clearly upset because of the manner in which the US government insisted these people return: handcuffed and tied to their airplane seats even though the Pakistanis in charge felt no threat from them. Now, most of these deportees are not terrorists or evil minds. They are poor souls who went looking for what they thought would be a better life in the US — given that those who now rule that country were also immigrants and perhaps the families of some were also illegal. In any event, some of the Pakistani deportees overstayed, some forgot to register and some were desperate enough to sustain an illegal status. Whatever their "crime", surely basic human dignity should not be denied them. Clearly, the desire for revenge against all Muslims pervades the US psyche deeply even now — after the trauma of 9/11 — and therefore every petty act of vengeance such as shackling Pakistani deportees on their way home offers some satisfaction for this highly disturbed super power. But that is not the major cause for one’s anger — since one now expects nothing better on that count — given the continuing abuse of all international law and human rights on Guantanamo Bay. No the anger surges forth, especially being so far from home, because country people back home are prepared to accept all this with hardly a protest. Our media barely refers to these deportations — in fact the international media has done more to highlight this issue — and officialdom is seemingly quite uncaring. This was reflected in the Jamali cabinet’s (since one is not updated about the new cabinet on this Island!) Foreign Minister’s remarks, which were also included in the same programme referred to above. He expressed regret, but objected to the use of the term "plane loads of deportees" because he felt that he had met thousands of Pakistanis in the US who were living there happily with no discrimination post-9/11. Perhaps he meets only the affluent migrants but the real issue here is that how many will it take for us to say "enough is enough" and we will not tolerate the inhuman treatment of even one of our citizens. If anyone is guilty of breaking the law, there is a civilised procedure that should be followed. And if Pakistanis have to be deported, they must be allowed to retain their basic human dignity. When will we have the commitment to object to even one of our citizens being mistreated by a foreign government? This is our tragedy and that is why one’s anger is accompanied by sorrow — sorrow not only at the tragedy of these deportees who risked their all for hope of a better life, but also for the nonchalance of the Pakistani nation towards the way Pakistanis are treated by supposed allies. Unless we can care for each and every Pakistani — not just the affluent abroad — we will never coalesce as a strong nation despite our power potential. And we do have that, but we are unable to realise it because we have not developed a passion for Pakistan. Now, coming to the second mood relating to the homeland faraway — that of a profuse regret. Why? Because one is overwhelmed by the manner in which a country like Thailand has made the most of its resources to lure the global tourist to its land. Every inch of the country — and especially the small islands — has been developed while retaining the natural charm so that the place is truly like a global village. The locals clearly have a stake in all this and so they become part of the charm and lure of the land. Local material has been used to build the small villas and hotels — no massive high rises on the islands — and the services and shops are all small, local entities that one sees in our own hill stations, but clean and welcoming. As in Malaysia, the locals retain their heritage and traditions but facilitate the visitors searching for their varied holiday notions. It is, therefore, only natural to feel an intense regret that we in Pakistan have failed miserably on this count, despite our almost limitless natural bounties. With our seacoast and our rich historical plains and our world famous mountain ranges, we have untold wealth but we continue to squander it. We could make it a paradise for the global tourist — who now is not primarily from the US but from countries like Japan and China — but our petty insecurities and penchant for land grabbing make this impossible. For instance, if the locals in and around Gwadar had been allowed to have a stake in its development, who would have objected? Instead, land speculators ensured local unrest. Again, this was the year that we were going to celebrate the first K 2 climb — but the political unrest in the Northern Areas led to the cancellation of many European groups who were coming for this occasion — especially from Italy. Despite an almost total lack of basic tourist comforts, including some places for evening relaxation, our mountains and surrounding valleys continue to attract some tourists — but our law and order situation and our fear of the extremists in our midst continues to undermine our tourism potential. It is amazing how we feel our religious commitment and culture will immediately be under threat if we provide the basic tourist necessities! We really need to visit Malaysia to see how the Islamic identity and commitment of the Malay nations thrives within a heterogeneous and diverse population and a liberal "live and let live" polity. The result is that their country thrives on tourism and our rich and diverse national heritage remains undiscovered by the world. That is one major reason why the world is so ready to accept the misperceptions formulated about Pakistan. After all, tourism is not just valuable in terms of economic rewards; it has a far wider and long term benefit in that it allows the world to understand what Pakistan is truly all about. This has a multiplier effect that continues to expand an understanding of the nation abroad. Also, increasing exposure to the rest of the world with all its diversity allows our own people a greater understanding of the world beyond governments. There are people to cultivate and interact with — and influence, if we are prepared to welcome them. Surely, after over fifty years of existence as an independent Islamic state, we should have enough confidence in ourselves not only to survive global diversity, but also to enrich ourselves with it while bolstering our own national identity. In Thailand we are picking up some understanding of Thai culture and habits and the children are learning about Thailand as a country. Not intensive knowledge but at least a basic awareness. There is an inherent "Thai-ness" in all the tourist resorts amid all the global amenities that are provided. It is up to us to be able to do the same in our country — tourism is one of the most lucrative ways of projecting Pakistan. At the end of it all then perhaps the two moods really merge into one in that what really angers one and makes one feel sorrowful and experience regret is our inability to evolve a national pride and dignity that gives us the confidence to welcome the world in our midst while making it clear to the world that each and every citizen is precious to us as a Pakistani. The views expressed by the writer are her own Cheers
Posted by: k.ram Jul 7 2004, 06:46 AM "But all this obfuscation is ultimately self-defeating: with the root causes of terror left unaddressed, the terrorists are still free to recruit and proliferate. Let Musharraf speaks about the real roots of Islamic terror, and he’ll actually deserve that Churchillian mantle."
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 7 2004, 10:01 AM user posted image Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf has fled his country and has sought asylum in Chile. The desperate action came after Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali resigned. United States President George W Bush has announced that American troops have landed at Karachi airport and would take control of the situation shortly, to prevent rioting and bloodshed. Pakistan’s neighbor India said it would not intervene, but would not mind sending its troops to patrol the country, if asked to by the US. In Chile, Musharraf said he had fled ‘my beloved country’ after a man flashed a Swiss knife at him, at a public meeting. ‘I feared for my life,’ he admitted. On why he chose Chile, Musharraf laughed and said, ‘Everybody has the impression that it is hot in Chile, as they associate the country’s name with pungent chillies. In fact, it’s a cool place. It’s quite chilly here.’ The general said he had no intention stage a military coup in Chile. Initial reports on had stated that Musharraf had staged a coup in Chile. In Washington, Bush said he would fly down to Chile to convince Musharraf to return to Pakistan, as the country needed him very badly. Meanwhile, unconfirmed reports coming in said former Indian prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee would be approached to be Pakistan’s new president-cum-prime minister. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jul 7 2004, 10:10 AM
Posted by: Mudy Jul 7 2004, 12:17 PM
What a logic? His DNA confirms when Islamist tried to kill his ancestors, they embrace Islam to survive and not to fight back. But they managed to save Haveli in old Delhi
Posted by: Sunder Jul 7 2004, 12:44 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jul 8 2004, 12:47 AM)
What a logic? His DNA confirms when Islamist tried to kill his ancestors, they embrace Islam to survive and not to fight back. But they managed to save Haveli in old Delhi
I think he actually means to say that if the International community Supports Bin Laden, and embraced him wholeheartedly, the twin-towers might have been spared.
Posted by: Viren Jul 7 2004, 02:46 PM
His complaint will sound familiar to anyone who's been single: "Noble, honest, smart and well-educated," he lamented, "are not available." No eligible woman in his small extended family fit that bill. He's not allowed to interact with women at work or meet them socially. So, at his parents' urging, Iqbal-Naz called "Shaadi Online."
Happened to catch one episode of "Shaadi Online" on GeoTV while flipping channels - nah don't pay for this they had some freebies going on for a weekend couple weeks ago. They had some interesting characters - one guy was working in some auto company in Korea (didn't meniton which - South or North tongue.gif ) and he's looking for a 'Begum' who might have been a good fit in a Talibanic society - at home, no movies/TV, Islamic values etc... Then got to wonder as if there's a girl out there for this guy, would she be watching TV??
Posted by: k.ram Jul 7 2004, 03:16 PM
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 7 2004, 04:04 PM
THREATS GALORE pakee.gif thumbup.gif Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: k.ram Jul 7 2004, 04:32 PM
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 8 2004, 02:04 AM pakee.gif How stupid can the Lotastaani Sindhis get? Expecting any thing “Unadulterated” in the “Land of the Pure” is an exercise in futility. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jul 8 2004, 06:38 AM
A third source, an official who works under ISI's director, Lieutenant General Ehsan ul-Haq, informed tnr that the Pakistanis "have been told at every level that apprehension or killing of HVTs before [the] election is [an] absolute must." What's more, this source claims that Bush administration officials have told their Pakistani counterparts they have a date in mind for announcing this achievement: "The last ten days of July deadline has been given repeatedly by visitors to Islamabad and during [ul-Haq's] meetings in Washington." Says McCormack: "I'm aware of no such comment." But according to this ISI official, a White House aide told ul-Haq last spring that "it would be best if the arrest or killing of [any] HVT were announced on twenty-six, twenty-seven, or twenty-eight July"--the first three days of the Democratic National Convention in Boston.
Posted by: k.ram Jul 8 2004, 08:14 AM grenade.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jul 8 2004, 09:34 AM
If they force me to go back to India I will have to convert back to Hinduism," she said. That is a prospect that does not appeal to Dr Hafsa, who comes from a conservative Hindu family. "I only spoke a few times with them, but my parents would kill me if I go back," she said. "They are not happy with my decision."
Posted by: Viren Jul 8 2004, 07:43 PM
What's going on blink.gif URL changes..
QUOTE THE ASIAN AGE, JULY 6, 2004 BYLINE M.J. AKBAR Shimla Mirchi - By M.J. Akbar Shimla Mirchi - By M.J. Akbar It is of course entirely coincidental that Pakistan will soon join India in making an IMF alumni its Prime Minister. While reasons vary, this reflects, at least partly, a growing urge in the developing world to place men at the top who are honest, efficiency-driven and committed to economic reform. At the top, but not at the very top. The political class that has permitted them to rise has given them the responsibilities of office but denied them the privileges of political power. Both Shaukat Aziz, when he becomes PM, and Dr Manmohan Singh, who has already been sworn in, have bosses. One is the President of the country, and the other is the president of a political party. In Pakistan this works, because there is no confusion about the limits of democracy. Power in Islamabad grows out of the barrel of the Army gun, and therefore remains clearly in the grasp of President Pervez Musharraf and the corps commanders who keep him in the chair. If the Pakistan Prime Minister wants to set policy, he knows whose permission he must take. Delhi is different. The Prime Minister is the fountainhead of power because he, or she, is in office by virtue of a popular mandate. But since the last general election threw up a complex jigsaw puzzle, Dr Singh got the job that should have gone to Mrs Sonia Gandhi. Ideally, a Prime Minister in India should be the first among equals in his Cabinet. But for some of his senior colleagues, Dr Singh is less than equal. They believe that he is a transitional figure, or even a figurehead, the winner of a lottery that he does not quite deserve. They do not accord him the courtesy, or accept the necessity, of consulting him. This has led to what could be the first gaffe of the new government. Traditionally, the Prime Minister plays a much larger role in the exercise of foreign policy than he does over other departments not directly in his charge. The reason is obvious; foreign policy deals with state to state relations. Relations with Pakistan are particularly sensitive, and there has never been a Prime Minister who has not overseen this aspect of state policy. There are indications that foreign minister Natwar Singh chooses to keep his own counsel even on Pakistan policy. If he had consulted the Prime Minister’s Office, the joint statement at the end of the foreign secretaries’ conference in Delhi in June might have been formulated with more care. But Mr Natwar Singh believes he knows more than anyone else on his subject, and that he is accountable to his party president rather than his Prime Minister. Mr Natwar Singh’s motives were not very complex. He wanted to establish a new framework for the dialogue between India and Pakistan for three reasons. First, he wanted his personal signature on policy. Second, he is keen to suggest that the BJP’s approach was inadequate, if not amateur. Third, he wanted to pay homage to the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty that has given him his present job. And so he brought into play the idea that the Indo-Pak dialogue should be based on the Shimla pact, signed between Mrs Indira Gandhi and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in 1972, which brought the 1971 war to a formal end. The Shimla pact did end the war, but it did not initiate a peace. Many commentators have noted that Mrs Gandhi won the war against General Yahya Khan in 1971 with adroit skill but lost the peace against Bhutto in 1972 with inexplicable feebleness. One prominent individual to hold such a view is Mr Natwar Singh’s colleague in the new government, Mr J.N. Dixit, foreign secretary under Mr Narasimha Rao and national security adviser under Dr Singh. He might have warned Mr Singh about the quicksand at the centre of the Shimla pact. Bhutto came to Shimla with nothing in his hand except perhaps a wild card or two. He was leader of a nation that had been physically divided and psychologically decimated. The Pakistan Army was shattered after the humiliating surrender to India, and nearly 100,000 of its personnel were prisoners of war. There was a strong view in India that this was a moment to resolve the status of Jammu and Kashmir through a treaty that Pakistan would have to honour. Instead it was Bhutto who had reasons to smile after the Shimla pact. The positions of the two countries on Kashmir are too well known to need much reiteration. Jawaharlal Nehru went to the United Nations in 1947 in the hope that the UN would be an honest broker. It was partly out of idealism and faith in the newly-formed world body, and partly naiveté: the world was still young after the bloodletting of the Second World War and the consequent collapse of colonialism. Pakistan seized on this mistake and has insisted that a UN-sponsored plebiscite is the only way out. India says that a plebiscite is now out of the question, since the Pakistan Army never vacated the territory it seized in the first war of 1947-48, and that a bilateral dialogue is the only way forward. Pakistan, conversely, has insisted on a reference to the United Nations Charter. So what happened at Shimla in 1972? The reference to the United Nations Charter was retained in the pact: "That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern relations between the two countries." More important, the accord said that the clauses would be without prejudice to the recognised positions of either side pending a "final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir". This is unambiguous. Pakistan agreed to respect the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir, but then so did India. This becomes a restrictive clause when any suggestion is made to cross the line to stop cross-border terrorism. A post-accord theory was floated in Delhi that the Shimla Accord is tantamount to a final settlement on the basis of the Line of Control. Perhaps Mr Natwar Singh believes that. If so, all one can say is that he has not read the details of the Accord in a long long while. Bhutto did agree at Shimla to find a peaceful solution to the Kashmir problem through negotiations. He was in power for five effective years after the Accord. How many times did he visit India for such negotiations after he had got the signature on the Accord, all his PoWs back and peace on the western front at a time when the Pakistan Army was in its worst shape? Naturally, not once. Instead, he rebuilt the strength of the Pakistan military services with much help from his nation’s friends, and secretly initiated the nuclear programme that has enabled Pakistan to become a nuclear power. The consequences of the Shimla Non-Agreement have been evident in the last three decades: insurrections in Punjab and Jammu and Kashmir, Kargil and a heavy price paid in blood. As for the talks, we are still talking about them. Atal Behari Vajpayee made three attempts to break this blood-stained deadlock; in effect, to move beyond Shimla. His first, in Lahore, was sabotaged by Kargil. His second, at Agra, was destroyed at the last minute by either deliberate will or poor planning. The third, initiated in 2003, held the most promise because both India and Pakistan indicated that they had learnt from mistakes and still retained the will to carry the idea of peace forward. It was a work in progress when the Vajpayee government was defeated. The talks between the foreign secretaries were part of the structure constructed between Mr Vajpayee and President Musharraf during their historic meeting in Islamabad in January. A quiet but consistent effort of Indian diplomacy has been to play down, if not entirely negate, any reference to the United Nations. This has not been easy, because it means convincing Pakistan that there is hope outside the UN, and that a plebiscite is now a non-starter. This was not easy, for the idea of a plebiscite has been fundamental to Pakistan’s Kashmir policy. It is a tribute to Mr Vajpayee that he managed to persuade President Musharraf to drop the demand for a plebiscite. The latter first tested such a radical change in his country’s position a little before the Islamabad meeting, and has been carefully encouraging Pakistani public opinion to think out of the box. There are many reasons to regret the failure of the Agra Summit. The most important one, from the Indian perspective, is that if the Agra Declaration had been signed it would have been the first time that Pakistan had inked a document without a single reference to the United Nations. It was, in that sense, a historic departure from past Pakistani positions. There was no mention of the United Nations at Islamabad in January this year. By a kind of unspoken consent both countries were moving away from the past that had held them back. Suddenly in June Mr Natwar Singh has agreed to a reference to the UN Charter in a joint statement just because he wanted a wholly unnecessary mention of the Shimla Accord. The Pakistan delegation must have been laughing all the way back to Islamabad. They gave away nothing on either Jammu and Kashmir or on bilateral relations, as we have seen, when agreeing to make Shimla the framework while restoring what was being quietly, but effectively, denied to them — a reference to the United Nations. ohmy.gif Diplomats are meant to achieve win-win situations. This must go down as a classic defeat-defeat situation. Does a change in terminology do substantive damage? It may not, but diplomats fight over every word only because it can. Relations between India and Pakistan rest on such a fine balance that even a memory can tip the scales.
Posted by: k.ram Jul 8 2004, 08:21 PM
(fwd mesg - no URL) ---------------------------- Erotic Politicians and Mullahs' by: Hanif Kureishi Hanif Kureishi's first visit to Pakistan in the early 1980s is confusing. Everywhere the influence of Islam is growing yet the wealthy liberal elite drinks smuggled whisky; and apparently, 'England just won't go away'.' Thanks Arun for the link..
Posted by: Arun Jul 9 2004, 08:45 AM
QUOTE (k.ram @ Jul 9 2004, 08:51 AM)
(fwd mesg - no URL) ---------------------------- Erotic Politicians and Mullahs' by: Hanif Kureishi
Kram, It is from the magazine Granta, specifically, No. 17 (Autumn 1985 ): Page 139-151. The
Posted by: Viren Jul 9 2004, 09:58 AM
subscripton site - posting in full: from NY Times Editorial:
QUOTE THE NEW YORK TIMES, EDITORIAL Pakistan Without Illusions Published: July 9, 2004 Pakistan's military dictator, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, has done such a good job of repackaging himself as a vital American ally against radical Islamic terrorism that it is easy to forget how alarming Washington rightly found so many of General Musharraf's policies not very long ago. He crushed Pakistani democracy, was, at the least, recklessly indifferent to safeguards against the proliferation of nuclear weapons and supported the Taliban and the terrorist groups active in Indian-ruled areas of Kashmir. General Musharraf publicly broke with the Taliban almost three years ago, but there has been inadequate progress on many of the other issues, and Pakistan has recently appeared to be backsliding on the Taliban. Many of the biggest dangers America faces over the next few decades are present in General Musharraf's Pakistan, starting with the way arbitrary dictatorships like his have become dangerous pressure cookers of discontent across the Muslim world. Ever since he seized power in a 1999 coup, General Musharraf has promised an early return to electoral democracy. Almost five years later, he still shows no inclination to share or yield power eventually, and he still derives his authority solely from control of the Army. Leading civilian politicians remain banned. Even the powerless prime minister named to add a veneer of electoral legitimacy to military rule was fired last month for proving insufficiently docile. The spread of nuclear weapons to a lengthening list of erratic and belligerent countries rightly terrifies Americans. Now we know that the man who helped develop nuclear weapons for Pakistan, Abdul Qadeer Khan, was the international godfather of rogue nuclear programs, helping countries like Iran, Libya and North Korea acquire nuclear bomb technology and materials. Earlier this year, under strong American pressure, Pakistan questioned and then pardoned Dr. Khan. This questioning yielded important clues about several countries' secret nuclear efforts. But there is no way of knowing for sure how high Dr. Khan's protection went and whether his nuclear arms bazaar is now truly closed. Pakistan's relationship to radical Islamic terrorism remains dangerously ambiguous. Historically, military leaders, including General Musharraf, openly used the Taliban and terrorist groups in Kashmir to advance Pakistan's strategic objectives. That is now supposed to have stopped. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, General Musharraf broke ties with the Taliban government and let Washington use bases on Pakistani soil to support the invasion of Afghanistan. Recently, he sent Pakistan's Army into the tribal territories bordering Afghanistan, in a not tremendously successful effort to hunt down Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters. But General Musharraf still lets Taliban leaders operate and recruit elsewhere on that border. This year, General Musharraf promised to end the infiltration of insurgents from Pakistani territory into the Indian-ruled part of Kashmir. He seems to be keeping his word, but he has not taken on the groups that train and arm these militants. General Musharraf is not an apocalyptic zealot like Osama bin Laden, an erratic recluse like North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, or a public vilifier of America, like Iran's ruling clerics. But neither is he a convinced or convincing ally in the struggle against radical Islamic terrorism, nuclear weapons proliferation and destructive dictatorship.
Posted by: k.ram Jul 12 2004, 11:52 AM,0015002200000093.htm
Posted by: Arun Jul 13 2004, 05:43 AM
Hamid Karzai in an interview with Carlotta Gall and David Rohde in the :
Mr. Karzai, who will visit Pakistan this month, said he was concerned about the training in Pakistan of militants, who then cross over and carry out attacks in Afghanistan. Afghan troops recently captured a militant who said he had been trained in Pakistan, Mr. Karzai said. The government raises the issue with Pakistan "on a daily basis," he said, adding that he would like for Pakistan to do more.
Meanwhile back in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, President Bush had this
............."President Musharraf is a friend of our country," he told a large gathering in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, amidst prolonged applause. President Bush said: "Pakistan is an ally in the war on terror, and the American people are safer." In his speech, President Bush pointed out how the US changed the course of events and how it had become safer. He said: "Three years ago, Pakistan was one of the few countries that recognized the Taliban regime. Al Qaeda was active in recruiting in Pakistan and was not seriously opposed. Pakistan served as a transit point for Al Qaeda terrorists leaving Afghanistan on missions of murder." "Today, the governments of United States and Pakistan are working closely in the fight against terror." "President Musharraf is a friend of our country who helped in the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, the operational planner behind the Sept 11 attacks, and Pakistani forces are rounding up terrorists along their nation's western border." "Today, because we are working with Pakistani leaders, Pakistan is an ally in the war on terror, and the American people are safer." The US president referred to the global situation prevailing three years ago....................
Hamid Karzai from his interview appears to be less than impressed with the bit about "Pakistani forces are rounding up terrorists along their nation's western border".
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 13 2004, 04:15 PM Cheers
Posted by: k.ram Jul 13 2004, 07:47 PM
NCJP's Monitor 2004 about human rights in Pakistan Asia July 12, 2004 Faisalabad (AsiaNews) - National Commission for Justice and Peace has released its eighth Human Rights Monitor "A report on the situation of religious minorities in Pakistan". The 105 pages Report covered all aspects of life of minorities in Pakistan. Regarding Social Discrimination and Religious Intolerance the report said, that all governments, whether civilian or military, made promises and high claims of building religious tolerance and working towards non-discrimination in Pakistan. Regimes changed and decades passed but this goal remained an illusive dream. It was so because they failed to qualify their claims with concrete steps. In the political arena restoration of joint electorate improved inter-community relation visibly but the incidence of intolerant commissions was painfully high and common. Prisoners The discriminatory attitude towards religious minorities finds its way in jails in Pakistan too. The jail laws provide for a remission of six month for Muslim prisoners in their sentence on learning Holy Quran by heart. Such facility is not available to non-Muslim prisoners except in Sindh province. Labours Addressing to the labour situation in Pakistan the report says that the labour rights condition in general, is bad in the country. Non-Muslim labourers, be they domestics, factory or farm workers, are an easy target of the malice of profit hungry employers. The human rights violation and unequal treatment as workers at times, is even worse in the government services than private sector. The existing safeguards lack implementation and there is need of more appropriate legislation. However it is not coincident that sectors having bonded labour, low wages and a lack of, or no social security also has a high concentration of minority labourers. It is so in the agriculture, brick kiln factories, sanitation work, carpet weaving and domestic servitude. It is also reported that during 2003, 24 non-Muslims committed suicide. Hindus were 19 and 5 Christians (Men: 11, Women: 13). Freedom of religion, expression and legal rights Talking about Religious Freedom the report says that with Hudood Ordinances, Qisas and Diayat and blasphemy laws, etc. as part of the penal law and a thoroughly biased Constitution of Pakistan it is difficult to imagine religious freedom available to any citizen. Moreover the religious minorities face a number of problems regarding their Personal Laws that govern matters concerning marriage, divorce, guardianship and inheritance. The Personal Laws for Muslims (and their interpretation) have an overriding effect on the Personal Laws of non-Muslims. A duly solemnized marriage under Christian or Hindu rites ceases to have effect or value if one declares oneself a Muslim. The marriages solemnized under Family Laws of non-Muslims stand dissolved with immediate effect, according to a decision by the Federal Shariat Court. The decision further said that the marriage of a non-Muslim woman stands dissolved after iddat (three menstrual cycles) if during this period her husband does not embrace Islam. About hate speech in Pakistan report says, that Pakistan Television's serial Mohammad Bin Qasim, Shaheen and Tipu Sultan were clear misrepresentation of historical events to the disadvantage of non-Muslim minorities. And education policy has gone from bad to worse over the years. The syllabus does not base at democratic values and the behaviour of teachers is also discriminatory towards the non-Muslim students. The religious minorities in particular suffered many injustices in the particular area falling under the administration of justice, report said. Report says that several laws and regulations, especially the Articles and provisions of the Constitution of Pakistan discriminate against religious minorities. Like Islam is the state religion… Art. 2. The head of State has to be a Muslim… Art. 41 (2). The oath for Prime Minister in the third schedule of Art. 91 (3), suggests that this office is also reserved for a Muslim. The decline of the political institutions affected the performance of the whole state machinery in the past 55 years. The role and scope of various departments in service delivery and safeguarding the rights of the people was reduced. Governance gave way to corruption and nepotism. The Council of Islamic Ideology neither had representation of religious minorities nor it bothered to take the sentiments and interest of religious minorities into account in its recommendations. Yet the consequences of its actions and its expenditures are borne by the whole nation. A non-Muslim can neither be judge nor can appear as a lawyer and witness in the Federal Shariat Court. Regarding blasphemy law, report says, no other law in the name of religion had more devastating and at massive scale effect in the recent years than the blasphemy laws. The blasphemy laws infringe right to free expression, cases have been registered against the editors, journalists and other staff and some newspapers had to face ban on such allegations. Women Pakistani society, which still has to recognize women as a full human being, is prone to multifaceted crimes against women. Women belonging to minorities despite their emancipative role unfortunately face a double jeopardy, leading to gender specific injustices. As an acknowledgment of the seriousness of the issue, the law in Pakistan has recently been amended to introduce the death penalty for gang rape. Its effectiveness and impact is yet to be seen, report said. Recommendations NCJP strongly recommended that: -An independent and permanent commission for (religious and other) Minorities be instituted, with the powers of a Tribunal, which can entertain complaints and redress can be provided on urgent basis. - It urges the government to constitute an impartial and independent Commission of Inquiry to study the situation of religious minorities and make recommendations to the government and people of Pakistan. - The recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry for Women be implemented without delay. - NCJP also strongly recommended that the government should invite UN Special Rapporteur on Religious Tolerance, to observe the state of affairs with regard to his mandate and the developments on his recommendations in UN document. - The Constitution of Pakistan and statutory laws (articles and sections thereof) that discriminate against religious minorities and are source of communal disharmony must be repealed without delay. - All sanitary workers be regularized in their jobs. Their wage structure be improved with the provision of regular medical care by the employing agencies. - An affirmative action is recommended to include religious minorities in the services in order to ensure their rehabilitation in the national mainstream. NCJP demanded that Pakistan should take a clear stand that all religions are accepted and respected for envisaging a meaningful journey towards social development. - Education should be compulsory and free for all. The syllabus for the children should be revised thoroughly with the purpose of removing material that promotes religious biases.
Posted by: Praneet N Jul 14 2004, 09:34 AM
Terror infrastructure still exists in Pak: Armitage US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage on Wednesday said terrorist infrastructure still exists in Pakistan and stressed that infiltration into India from across the border must end. Addressing a press conference in New Delhi before leaving for Pakistan, he said: "Clearly, all the infrastructure that supports cross-border terrorism has not been dismantled. Some has been dismantled." On India's concerns about continued infiltration, he said: "Any level of infiltration is too much from our point of view. There is infiltration. You get various opinions here about whether it is up or down. It is down probably. But the point is not to have it at all." On the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, he had said, after his meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh earlier in the day, that "people are still dying. It is not acceptable." MORE :
Posted by: Viren Jul 14 2004, 09:55 AM
QUOTE (Praneet N @ Jul 14 2004, 12:34 PM)
Addressing a press conference in New Delhi before leaving for Pakistan, he said: "Clearly, all the infrastructure that supports cross-border terrorism has not been dismantled. Some has been dismantled."
Well by tomorrow we should hear statements from Islamabad as to how great the 'frontline-ally' TSP is or how 'tight' Bush-Mush are. What's new? Seems like a Groundhog day where we live the same day over and over again.
Posted by: Praneet N Jul 14 2004, 06:29 PM
Couple of things, browsing through the thread, i wonder why no-one in the muslim world ever raises a cry or hue about the fact of Muslims killing Muslims on a daily basis... Places like pakistan...Sunni's are killing Shia's and they're both killing Ahmediyas and then if there's a Hindu about thats managed to raise attention he's shortly made a victim in the ongoing carnage. But do we hear a whimper of why this goes on and not challenged by the Ummah? No instead they'll focus on the attrcities the Kafir Hindus have inflicted in Goojrath...the plight of the palestenians...chechens etc. Nobody says a whimper about the Pakis holocaust of 3 million bangladeshis with their women screaming to improve the genetic makeup of the bangladeshis.... another 500 000 the Iran/Iraq war, tons more under the taliban in afghanistan...but muslim deaths by muslim hands are accepted widely. Being Hindu myself death by any is abhorant....but how to change the minds of a people where killing another is accepted even within the same religion but a slightly different sect. And to the Paki convert above...i wonder why i never seem to find news of the opposite...any muslim women dying to marry a hindu guy for Love...religion it seems is a hell of a lot stronger on that side of the border. Im not sure the mass media in India has something to do with this....somehow our media and recently bollywood has played the romantic notion of hindu girls leaving everything behind them...for the sake of following their Love even to a hell hole country. Its almost fashionable... The grass is always greener on the other side of the border right...paki guys are taller, wheatish colored, and so tight a**ed says Shilpa as she kissed the flag. Fact is we have a powerful tool in our free media....But we keep shaf*ing ourselves with it...
Posted by: Mudy Jul 14 2004, 08:52 PM
When Muslims kill each other IMC/FOIL/SABRANG/SINGH / Ummah or media ignores. It is puzzling why they don't even acknowledge. But Shias or Ahemdiya do complain but their voice is not at global level compare to their cry for Kashmir or Chechnya or Palestine. Revenge against Kuffirs unit them and boundaries between sects disappears
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 15 2004, 06:05 PM
FROM THE TIMES OF ISLAMAWORST : NEW DELHI: Giving credence to police version, Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba has said that Ishrat Jehan, who was killed along with three others in Ahmedabad, was the outfit's activist. In a news report published in Lahore-based Ghazwa Times , mouthpiece of the LeT, Lashkar said "the veil of Ishrat Jehan, a woman activist of LeT, was removed by Indian police and her body was kept with other mujahideens (terrorists) on the ground." "Ishrat was with her husband, sitting on the front seat of the car," said the newspaper report published in the Jamat-ul-Dawa website, the new name of Markaz-ad-Dawa Wal Arshad (parent organisation of the LeT), which was changed after the US banned it in 2002. Two Indians and two Pakistanis, all alleged LeT suicide squad members, were gunned down by the Gujarat police in the wee hours of June 15 on the outskirts of Ahmedabad. Besides Ishrat from Mumbra in Mumbai, others killed were Javed Sheikh of Pune, Jishan Johar alias Abdul Ghani from Gujranwala (Pakistan) and Amjad Ali Akbarali Rana alias Salim of Haveli Diwan (Pakistan). The killing of Ishrat sparked a major debate with some groups claiming her to be innocent. However, the findings of the Gujarat and Mumbai police had pointed to her involvement in militant and anti-national activities. This is confirmed by Dung : BOMBAY: A militant group in India* liar.gif said on Thursday a woman student killed by police, which accused her of planning to kill a hard-line Hindu leader in Gujarat state, was one of its members. A message posted on Lashkar-e-Taiba’s (LT) website said Ishrat Jahan, 19, a Bombay college student gunned down last month along with three men in Ahmedabad was a "Lashkar activist." Police have said they shot dead Jahan and three others, two of whom they identified as Pakistanis, last month as they set off with arms and explosives to kill Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi. Gujarat’s main opposition Congress party** has accused the state government and police of orchestrating the shootout and Jahan’s mother has sought a federal probe into the police statements her daughter was involved in an assassination bid. She said her daughter was not involved in any terrorist activity.*** * : Now LeT is an Indian Militant Group whereas it is a Lotastaani Army-ISI Fundamentalist Terrorist Organization? ** : Are the Congress now going to Apologise to India in General and the Government and People of Gujarat in Particular for fanning Communal Hatred? ***Ishrat Jahan’s Mother was so close to her Daughter that she was unawre that Ishrat was married. One can understand that the Mother says shedid not know about her Daughter’s Terrorist Connections but sure she must have known of her marriage and thereby her daughters Terrorist Connections. Ishrat Jahan’s Mother should be hauled in for being an Accomplice in this Act. Cheers
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:19 PM
> making Shaukat Aziz the Prime Minister is a matter of following the > predefined script. Nevertheless, one has to see, how long Shaukat will serve and how > he will be consumed for the reasons he is being brought in the role of Prime > Minister. > I agree with the comment in South Asia Tribune by Syed Atiq ul Hassan. Shaukat Aziz is being installed as Prime Minister for a purpose. I believe it is to open the option of using Pakistan's soil, forces and resources to invade Iran.If that objective is abandoned, he would be discarded in favour of a popular political dispensation in Pakistan. It could be led by the PPP if Benazir agrees to stay out, or it could be a right wing coalition that the movers and shakers hope would pave the way for early elections in which the secularist/nationalist opponents of Pakistan - (like in 1971 in East Pakistan) make a good showing - winning in one or more provinces. + Usman Khalid +
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:23 PM
> While there might be foreign elements among them and they may be operating > against American forces in Afghanistan, in my view that is what they are: > opponents, of a governmental policy; not enemies, not insurgents, not > terrorists. Thank you Zulfikar for circulating the article. Brigadier Shaukar Qadir is right. General Musharraf claimed that he had a mandate from the people on the basis of a presidential election held when he was in uniform and was the only candidate. No one agreed with him; his legitimacy in power was suspect. He has since secured a vote of confidence from the parliament that does buttress his legitimacy but his insistence on staying in uniform puts a question mark on it once again. That he has employed the Pakistan Army to hunt the opponents of American presence in Afghanistan - the very people we supported and helped when they were resisting Soviet occupation - makes General Musharraf extremely unpopular and the question mark over his legitimacy has reappeared. That he calls the Afghans who resist American occupation 'terrorists' and the Pakistanis who help them 'miscreants' is self-fulfilling. His decision to use force against them has reinforced their legitimacy and increased their popularity and robbed him of both. Wana operation is causing destabilisation of the country unprecedented in its scale. It is times General Musharraf reviewed the situation because the policy of uncritical obedience of America is dangerous for Pakistan. His decision undermines the respect of the people the armed forces must enjoy if they are to perform their role properly; it puts his own life and that of hundreds of thousands of servicemen all over Pakistan in peril. Even the power of America has failed to secure the submission of Iraqis. The Afghans brought the Soviet power to its knees. The armed forces operating without the support of the people always prove to be powerless. So have they in Wana. + Brigadier Usman Khalid + Director London Institute of South Asia P.S. The situation in Karachi is quite different. The wise politicians of Sindh have always realised that they can frustrate the menace of MQM only with the help of the armed forces and the majority people of the Punjab. It is the Sindhi nationalists among them, who neither have patriotism nor wisdom, who undermine them.
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:25 PM
> we can never trust the Afghans as long as the northern alliance is present > and I > don't think they will be going away soon. Dear Basharat, Assalam o alaikum You have a point. The Union of Pakistan and Afghanistan is perhaps not a viable objective. But as a vision, it has sound basis in history. Before the advent of the Sikh and British rule, Afghanistan and Pakistan were one country under the Durrani Empire. The claim of Afghanistan on Pakistan (contrary to what Brother Sarfraz has been saying) is not based on common ethnicity of tribes on both sides of the Durand Line but on the boundaries of the erswhile Durrani Empire. Mine is a vision, not a pressing political objective. The Union of Pakistan and Afghanistan has been an essential featutre every post-imperial vision of our region from Jamaluddin Afghani. Chaudhary Rahmat Ali vision of Pakistan included P for Punjab, A for Afghania (NWFP) K for Kashmir, I for Iran, S for Sindh, T for Tukhristan (Central Asia), A for Afghanistan and N is the last letter of Baluchistan. While Chaudhary Rahmat Ali's dream would remain a dream for some more time, it MUST be the common political objective of Pakistan and Afghanistan that the latter became a bridge instead of a barrier to Central Asia. Sincerely + Usman Khalid +
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:30 PM
> Ittehaadi Force, an alliance of several separatist organisations, today > joined the issue over the results of the parliamentary elections and hoped that > the new government at centre would follow a visionary approach on Kashmir > issue instead of the policy of "suppression and corruption" of the NDA > government. > The hope by Kashmiris for the better is legitimate under Congress Rule. However, the allies of the Congress in Kashmir (National Conference) are likely to dictate the policy of the new government. They are likely to say that with 'secularists' in power in Delhi, the forces of liberation in Kashmir have no case. The Kashmiris have to make their political case with more vigour and focus. In my judgement, they have a viable case if they argued as follows: 1. No country ever becomes great (that the reinvigorated Congress Party wants to make India) when it is hostile to all its neighbours - particularly when they are much smaller than it. India making peace with Pakistan is a prerequisite for India to surge ahead as it dearly wants. 2. Peace without justice is never secure. India knows what is fair and just in each of its disputes with all its neighbours. In the case of Pakistan, the core issue is the exercise of self-determination by the people of Jammu and Kashmir. 3. The main constraint on development of India is the scarcity of energy. India cannot solve this problem without the friendship and co-operation of Pakistan on whose territory all oil/gas pipelines must pass on their way to India. 4. India, beside being a regional scourge (because it bullies its neighbours) is a serial betrayer of promises to its own people, is a persistent violator of international law and human rights and is even contemptuous of the UN. Without honouring its commitment to hold a plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir, it cannot regain honour. 5. Its desire to get away with defying the UN and the world over Kashmir has led India into bed with the devil - with Israel and into supporting the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. India cannot redeem its position of leadership of the NAM and the Third World until it honours its commitment to the people of Jammu and Kashmir. 6. A democracy is often more intractable than dictatorship because it has to await a change in public opinion before a revolutionary change in policy is undertaken. The rejection of BJP in elections marks a shift in public perception. It provides the Congress Party and its allies on the left to unburden India of the burden of military occupation of Jammu & Kashmir. 7. It appears that gradual and phased approach to the Kashmir Dispute is acceptable to Pakistan. In the first phase, free travel without passport astride the line of control and direct links (including common sessions) of elected assemblies of the Indian and Azad Kashmir would allow the Kashmiris to evolve their own agenda, their own priorities and their own strategy. If demilitarisation and union of the two halves of the state is the priority for Kashmiris, I am sure it would be acceptable to Pakistan. It should also be to the new Congress led Administration of India. It would set both countries on a course to peace and reconciliation. + Usman Khalid + Director London Institute of South Asia
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:33 PM
ADVERTISEMENT In a message dated 07/07/04 19:37:51 GMT Daylight Time, mscassociates@y... writes: > I could not understand the closing lines of ur third point as given > hereunder: > > A unique and uplifting sovereign purpose not shared by followers of other > faiths. > > Dear Brother Saleem, Assalam o alaikum A people become a nation when they have a purpose which cannot achieved without being sovereign. That is the meaning and implication of sovereign purpose which is the touchstone to determine if an identity is deserving of sovereignty. Punjabi, Pathan, Sindhi, Baluch, Kashmiri and Mohajir are not sovereign identities because they do not possess a separate sovereign purpose. Sub-nationalists in Pakistan often assert that getting rid of Punjabi domination is a purpose that cannot be achieved without being sovereign. But this is a purpose they share with Kafirs of Sindh, Kashmir, Baluchistan and India not with any Muslim people. The purpose calls for a civil war among Muslims that is clearly NOT uplifting. Hate is never enough as basis for a sovereign purpose; it must be underpinned by objectives or projects that are uplifting. It goes without saying that all the identities that share a common sovereign purpose, as Muslims of British India did, are a part of one nation. It is pointless having a nation divided in several weak states when their purpose is common which can be much better achieved in a large and powerful state. It follows, therefore, that every nation is unique because its sovereign purpose is unique. Yours sincerely + Usman Khalid +
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:37 PM
> In any case this question is preposterous to start with and Indians often > use it as a red herring for distracting from the substance of the matter. Some > Pakistanis buy it unthinkingly. It is like "how come the queen of Madagascar > has three daughters although Madagascar is an island." > Dear Mr Mahmud, Assalam o alaikum I see your point. Why today? That is indeed the propaganda line of India. What message is intended by India saying there are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan? Are they hostages who must suffer because the Muslim majority provinces opted out of Brahmin rule? What does Agha Sahib think? The question asked by Dr Gul Agha is indeed absurd. It like asking why did the chicken cross the road? Any answer is a good one. I suggest, because it was beckoned by a Brahmin? The Two Nation Theory and the Pakistan Movement also liberated Muslim majority Bangladesh which is still a Muslim country despite the subversion and machinations of India and the treachery of Sheikh Mujib and his ilk. The Two Nation Theory is not applicable only to the Muslims of South Asia, it is now universal in its validity. It is the basis of Khalistan and many other movements of self determination all over of India as more and more people realise that the only way to escape caste apartheid and establish an egalitarian society & state is to exit the fold of Hinduism. Sincerely + Usman Khalid +
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:38 PM
> Please enlighten us about where is this "Brahmin" rule: > right now. I see India has a Muslim President, Sikh PM, a Roman > Catholic leader of the ruling party, and an Arya Samaji Sindhi as the > major leader of the opposition. Dear Dr Gul Agha, You know more about Brahmins than I do. The Brahmins are three per cent of the population and yet rule India, exactly like the Jews who are also three per cent of the US population and yet rule America. They both rule by setting the agenda. They decide who is the enemy and who is a friend. Being only three per cent they avoid being in the shop window themselves - in the USA as well as in India. They are not stupid. Judaism as well as Brahmanism are non-proselytising religions (one cannot covert to become a Brahmin or a Jew). They use a very clever technique to increase their numbers. Jews - as the followers and guardians of the 'Old Testament,' - have appended the Christian World to themselves by calling their bible 'New Testament.' It is implied, not very subtly, that the book is the same; it has two editions. Since their edition is 'old,' it is original and authentic and those who revere and guard the old are special - and hence the Chosen People - chosen to be the leaders of the Judo-Christian World, appointed by God Himself. Brahmanism broadens its base by accepting the gods of the target people into the Hindu fold. When they accept a new god (Autar) in the Hindu fold, they assign him a rank in relation to Brahma and Vishnu. The followers of the new god are also accepted within the fold of Hinduism with their rank in the caste system determined by their god. The Muslims and Christains have been offered a place in the fold of Hinduisn as Mohammedan Hindus and Christian Hindus with Mohammed (PBUH) and Chist (PBUH) as Autar of Hindus. The Brahmin method is not the same as that of the Jews because the Brahmin aims at social engineering of the entire society, the Zionists are satisfied with merely dictating the agenda of the West. But both claim to be the 'chosen people' - Jews of God, Brahmins of Brahma - the fountain of godhead. Yours sincerely + Usman Khalid +
Posted by: acharya Jul 15 2004, 07:41 PM
> UKHALID786@a... writes: > > > During the last century when we were struggling to crystallise our > national > > identity and to become sovereign, we defined ourselves as: Muslims (of > British > > India) are a Nation. > > Then how come there are more Muslims who consider themselves citizens > of India than there are people in Pakistan today? Dear Dr Gul Agha, The population of Muslims in India is said to be 125 - 150 million, it is the third largest after Indonesia and Pakistan. But they are still about 15 per cent of the population of India whereas in Pakistan the Muslims are 98 %. All Muslims do not have to live in a Muslim country. Neither you nor I do. It is neither practical nor even an article of our faith. But Muslim statecraft does provide guidance how Muslims should respond to different situations of threat or absence of it. It provides guidance by defining Darussalam (where Muslims enjoy political as well as cultural sovereignty), Darulaman (where Muslims enjoy cultural freedom but not political sovereignty), and Darulharb (where they enjoy neither). When some parts of India became Darulharb, Pakistan did accept with open arms all those Muslims who were displaced. But the welcome could not have been forever. The facility was withdrawn in 1953 and it became unpopular when some of them started to underline their ethnic identity more than their Muslim identity - as Biharis and Mohajir. The rest is history. The answer to your question is: the Muslims do not always follow Islam. We have Muslims like you who doubt if they should follow Islam and seek guidance from it! Yours sincerely + Usman Khalid +
Posted by: Viren Jul 16 2004, 03:03 PM
acharya: Is this the same Dr Gul Agha who champions the Sindh cause much to the discomfort of the TSP die-hards?
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 18 2004, 02:14 AM pakee.gif
He defended SBP’s purchase of $10 billion from Dubai and said that it was imperative to save the country from default. “In 1999-2000 we approached a brethren country to obtain credit for oil purchases, but the country refused to lend the money,” he said.
As such Pakistan’s “REAL” Foreign Exchange Reserves are only USD 2.5 Billion Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Viren Jul 19 2004, 09:03 AM
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 20 2004, 10:55 AM Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jul 20 2004, 11:16 AM
ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif This is true Democracy. One can't do this daring action in India. Congress and commie goondas will burn 100s of buses etc. Pakistanies are much better in this respect.
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 20 2004, 03:12 PM Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Reggie Jul 20 2004, 05:25 PM
I need help. Vivek A. at BR has posted a PakPhoto :hate America, Save Islam yada yada on July 20 at 2:02 p.m in the Pak thread.;f=1;t=006113;p=2 Anybody know the URL. I sent this to Drudge Report and they want a link. help!
Posted by: kedar bhandary Jul 20 2004, 06:19 PM
QUOTE (Reggie @ Jul 21 2004, 05:55 AM)
I need help. Vivek A. at BR has posted a PakPhoto :hate America, Save Islam yada yada on July 20 at 2:02 p.m in the Pak thread.;f=1;t=006113;p=2 Anybody know the URL. I sent this to Drudge Report and they want a link. help!
Try this
Posted by: sridhar k Jul 20 2004, 07:32 PM
Posted by: Reggie Jul 20 2004, 08:27 PM
Thanks Kedar and Sridhar!
Posted by: Viren Jul 21 2004, 07:17 AM
Meanwhile, Bush has consistently ignored the fact that al-Qaida had been largely funded and supported by powerful extremists in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, two "allies" his administration coddled both before and after 9/11. Pakistan was even exporting nuclear weapons technology to "Axis of Evil" countries Iran and North Korea, as well as Libya -- but not to Iraq.
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 22 2004, 03:23 AM pakee.gif
LAHORE: The Committee of Punjab Boards of Intermediate and Secondary Education (BISE) Chairmen has announced that students who passed the Secondary School Certificate in 2004 in F grade will get admission on merit in higher secondary schools and colleges, the Punjab Education Department has announced.
How can you Pass an Examination in F Grade? Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: rhytha Jul 22 2004, 04:22 AM
QUOTE (acharya @ Jul 16 2004, 08:11 AM)
> UKHALID786@a... writes: > > > During the last century when we were struggling to crystallise our > national > > identity and to become sovereign, we defined ourselves as: Muslims (of > British > > India) are a Nation. > > Then how come there are more Muslims who consider themselves citizens > of India than there are people in Pakistan today? Dear Dr Gul Agha, The population of Muslims in India is said to be 125 - 150 million, it is the third largest after Indonesia and Pakistan. But they are still about 15 per cent of the population of India whereas in Pakistan the Muslims are 98 %. All Muslims do not have to live in a Muslim country. Neither you nor I do. It is neither practical nor even an article of our faith. But Muslim statecraft does provide guidance how Muslims should respond to different situations of threat or absence of it. It provides guidance by defining Darussalam (where Muslims enjoy political as well as cultural sovereignty), Darulaman (where Muslims enjoy cultural freedom but not political sovereignty), and Darulharb (where they enjoy neither). When some parts of India became Darulharb, Pakistan did accept with open arms all those Muslims who were displaced. But the welcome could not have been forever. The facility was withdrawn in 1953 and it became unpopular when some of them started to underline their ethnic identity more than their Muslim identity - as Biharis and Mohajir. The rest is history. The answer to your question is: the Muslims do not always follow Islam. We have Muslims like you who doubt if they should follow Islam and seek guidance from it! Yours sincerely + Usman Khalid +
acharya is this usman khalid, the same as the one who wrote a book on "minorties in armed forces in india" which was discussed in BR.
Posted by: Viren Jul 22 2004, 06:59 AM
rhytha: I think that was,Omar.htm and this guy is Brig. Usman Khalid, Leader of Al-Ansaar, London. acharya: Is this the same group that that uploaded the Nick Berg video from London?
Posted by: Mudy Jul 22 2004, 10:08 AM
F grade will get admission on merit in higher secondary schools and colleges
'F' grade and merit. ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Sudhir Jul 22 2004, 11:15 AM After failing in to grab land in India, Bangladesh and Afghanistan the beast is turned inwards. pakee.gif
Posted by: Viren Jul 22 2004, 11:36 AM,,1266317,00.html
There is evidence of foreign intelligence backing for the 9/11 hijackers. Why is the US government so keen to cover it up?
Posted by: Peregrine Jul 22 2004, 03:38 PM The Kargil misadventure in 1999 continues to haunt Pakistan’s soldiers and politicians. When and by whom was the military plan made? Who decided (and why) that the time had come to implement it? Was prime minister Nawaz Sharif sufficiently briefed on all aspects of the operation, including contingencies, failsafe and fall-back positions, tactical versus strategic gains or losses, etc? Who sought American mediation when the conflict was spiraling out of control? What are the current legacies and future ramifications of Kargil on Indo-US-Pak relations, on the issue of nuclear deterrence, on the status of the Kashmir conflict, and on the civil-military relationship in Pakistan? We know that the Kargil plan was dusted off the shelves and updated for discussion following a change in government or army high command. On each occasion the core argument in favour was that a successful seizure of the Kargil heights would lead to a significant tactical advantage for Pakistan over the only ground supply route Indian forces can use to bring in supplies to the most remote eastern part of Kashmir. By advancing onto these mountaintops overlooking the Srinagar-Leh highway, it was argued that Pakistan would be in a position to weaken Indian control over a significant part of the contested province. On each occasion, however, the idea was abandoned for being too provocative or risky since it meant breaking the traditional ground rules governing the withdrawal of both armies from their most advanced positions in the mountains to avoid the difficulties of manning them during the winter and then returning to them in the spring. But this changed in late 1998 after four particularly hawkish army commanders and one remarkably dim politician came to form the core constellation of power in Islamabad. SSG Commando extraordinaire, General Pervez Musharraf, was appointed chief of army staff; a future coup maker, DG-ISI to-be and Taliban-supporter, General Mahmud Ahmed, became corps commander, Rawalpindi; General Javed Hasan, an opinionated former Military Attaché in Washington, was put in charge of the Force Command Northern Areas; and General Mohammad Aziz Khan was transferred from heading the Kashmir Division in the ISI to the elevated rank of Chief of General Staff in GHQ. The icing on the cake was PM Nawaz Sharif with an attention span of three minutes. The plan to go ahead was probably clinched by this military clique on or about the time of the Lahore Summit between Nawaz Sharif and Atal Bihari Vajpayee in January 1999. That would explain the visible hostility of the brass to the Indian prime minister’s visit and the provocative attitude of the Jama’at-e Islami in Lahore. Mr Sharif was thereafter conned into accepting its need partly by the deceptive argument that a successful operation in Kargil would strengthen his hand in negotiating a pro-Pakistan solution to Kashmir with the Indians (during one ‘briefing’ he is said to have actually asked how far Srinagar was from Kargil and whether there was any possibility that Pakistani forces could actually seize it by surprise) and partly by denying him a full and unequivocal brief on the cons of the operation and its possible aftermaths and repercussions. The fact that the operation was kept logistically secret even from the chiefs of the air force and navy in its planning stages confirms this line of reasoning. In other words, the prime minister of Pakistan and the two other service chiefs were treated strictly on a “need-to-know basis”. The Kargil operation was brilliantly executed because most of the Kargil heights were seized without a shot being fired. But, as in 1965, the brass didn’t adequately reckon on the Indian response. When the Indians woke up and tried to retaliate, they got the worse end of the deal, as anticipated. But as their casualties mounted, the demand grew for mobilising and throwing the full force of their military machine, including the air force, into the battle, including the idea of opening other more advantageous fronts against Pakistan. The Pakistani military had hoped that the conflict would be limited to the LoC at worst (where its position was favourable) while the nuclear deterrent was expected to stop India from precipitating full-scale war. In other words, it was presumed to be a win-win situation for Pakistan. Unfortunately, however, the potential role and assessment of the United States was not correctly sufficiently inputted.“The United States was alarmed from the beginning [by] the conflict because of its potential for escalation into nuclear cataclysm”, writes Bruce Reidel, the special National Security assistant to President Bill Clinton who had a ringside view of the 4th July 1999 talks between Nawaz Sharif and the American President in Washington. “The nuclear scenario was obviously very much on our minds. Since the surprise Indian tests in May 1998 the danger of a nuclear exchange had dominated American nightmares about South Asia… In the new post-May era we confronted the reality of two nuclear tested states whose missiles could be fired with flight times of three to five minutes from launch to impact. One well-informed assessment concluded that a Pakistani strike on just one Indian city, Bombay, with a small bomb would kill between 150,000 and 850,000 alone Given these consequences for escalation, the US was quick to make known our view that Pakistan should withdraw its forces back behind the Line of Control immediately. At first Rick Inderfurth and Undersecretary Thomas Pickering conveyed this view privately to the Pakistani and Indian ambassadors in Washington in late May. Secretary Albright then called Sharif two days later and General Tony Zinni, who had a very close relationship with his Pakistani counterparts, also called Chief of Army Staff General Musharraf. These messages did not work. So we went public and called upon Pakistan to respect the LOC. I laid out our position in an on-the-record interview at the Foreign Press Center in Washington. The President [Clinton] then called both leaders in mid-June and sent letters to each pressing for a Pakistani withdrawal and Indian restraint.” In consequence, he concludes, “the Pakistanis and Indians were both surprised by the US position: Pakistan because Islamabad assumed the US would always back them against India and India because they could not believe the US would judge the crisis on its merits, rather than side automatically with its long time Pakistani ally. Both protagonists were rooted in the history of their half-century conflict and astounded that the US was not bound by the past. The unprecedented American public tilt in favour of India upset the grand Pakistani plan. General Musharraf and Nawaz Sharif were obliged to seek a face saving retreat from the LoC. That is when the Pakistan army’s casualties soared. The question then arose of who would take the rap for a failed politico-military operation. That was when the seeds of irreconcilable discord were sown between the prime minister and his advisors and the Kargil generals led by General Musharraf. Each feared the other would oust and disgrace them. Therefore each began to manoeuvre for his safety. When Mr Sharif tried to meet with certain corps commanders, General Musharraf sidelined or ousted them. In a last ditch effort, prior to launching his coup against General Musharraf, Mr Sharif dispatched Shahbaz Sharif to Washington in September 1999 where he extracted a public statement from a senior unnamed American official that “a military takeover in Pakistan would not be tolerated” by Washington. Then Nawaz Sharif struck. But he hadn’t reckoned on the fact that with General Musharraf away in Sri Lanka the “Kargil boys” – Generals Aziz and Mahmud – were ready and waiting to counter him. Kargil has left a significant clutch of legacies. First, as a deterrent against full-scale war, the nuclear bomb on the shelf actually emboldened the Pakistanis to launch an aggressive incursion in Kargil. However, the fact that the United States didn’t recognise the deterrent value of the nuclear bomb and could compel its counter perception to prevail on Pakistan, meant that the bomb had no effective or operational deterrent value in certain strategic circumstances such as in Kargil. Second, it brought the Pakistan military back to power in a domestic and international environment ill-suited to it (the economy was in a bad way, President Clinton lectured General Musharraf for five hours in 2000 and the Commonwealth booted Pakistan out) and by a strange twist of events (9/11) enabled it to extend its stay in the new environment best suited to it. Third, it enabled India and the US to strike an unprecedented strategic long-term bargain which is likely to transcend the current favourable US-Pakistan equation to be reviewed after the worst of the war against terrorism is over. Fourth, it has compelled a significant shift in the Pakistan military’s approach to and attitude towards India and Kashmir. The military establishment has come full circle by going back to the Simla Pact of 1972 in trying to resolve Kashmir by means of a bilateral dialogue with India rather than by means of jihad or multilateral diplomacy and third party mediation. In other words, Kashmir is no longer the core issue for dispute resolution as fervently argued by the military establishment in the last fifteen years. Fifth, Kargil has definitely pricked the bubble of the Pakistani military’s propagandistic and self-induced triumphalism over the “cause” of Kashmir. The world is in favour of the status quo on the LoC and even China has abandoned Pakistan on this front. If Kashmir was the unalterable internal “solution” for the cause of military paramountcy in Pakistan until Kargil, it will henceforth have to be seen as the external “problem” to which a compromise resolution can be found. General Pervez Musharraf’s military takeover was a direct result of Kargil. But it was a reactionary act by desperate men in suspicious times. It could not have been sustained if it had not been for a chain of events unleashed by 9/11. Fortunately, however, the combination of Kargil and 9/11 has compelled the powerful Pakistani military establishment to finally countenance a necessary paradigm shift abroad. The beneficial consequences of this are already apparent on the external front. But Kargil is destined to compel another paradigm shift at home. This will become obvious on the domestic political front once the overriding benevolence of the international community towards the Pakistani military leadership begins to fade in the aftermath of the war against terror. In the event, General Musharraf will be compelled to redress the political imbalance in civil-military relations and harmonize it with the rest of the world. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jul 22 2004, 05:11 PM
Must read....
Posted by: k.ram Jul 22 2004, 07:35 PM
Soft Borders with Pakistan: A Certain Suicide for India There has been a recent and unrealistic euphoria over the possibility of a sudden dissolution of historical hatred in South Asia, with India possibly opening its arms and borders to embrace the failed state of Pakistan that has been trying its level best to destroy India. Until now there exist no serious analysis that discusses the potential outcome of this move – whether it would be a win-win situation for all countries or it would lead to Islamic extremism moving beyond Pakistan and further consolidate and destroy India through soft borders. My analysis outlined here indicates that soft borders with Pakistan would be suicidal for India and for the rest of South Asia. I discuss an alternate vision of achieving peace and prosperity in South Asia. The EU Model is Inappropriate Those who profess “statesmanship” or “vision” suggest a European Union (EU) type arrangement in South Asia. Few suggestions could be more inappropriate! Almost all countries in the EU have a Christian majority and they all strive toward progress, not jihad. Now, for over ten years, the EU has declined Turkey’s application for membership. Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim majority nation with a large and growing population. A letter of mine published in the Washington Times on Dec. 18, 2002 tells us the EU’s concerns: Why the EU does not want Turkey In their column "Road map to a Western Turkey" (Commentary, yesterday), John C. Hulsman and Brett D. Schaefer have glossed over an important concern many Europeans have about Turkey's inclusion in the European Union: namely, giving Turkey's Muslim population easier access to settling in Europe. European Muslims, including second-generation ones, have difficulty assimilating and are among the largest recipients of welfare. They also have high crime rates and poor education levels. While the native white population in the European Union is barely reproducing itself, European Muslims have among the highest birth rates. If Turkey were admitted to the union, Europe's Muslims could jump from about 4 percent to 20 percent of the population. Furthermore, there is the obvious issue of pan-Islamic extremism sweeping the world, including Europe, with the burgeoning of the immigrant Muslim population. It also must be acknowledged that, given its deep Islamic roots, Turkey is at best an experiment in democracy and modern development. Its admission into the European Union could portend the devastation of Western Europe through a massive influx of Muslims who have little in common with Europeans. To this day Pakistan continues to be the primary incubator of worldwide terrorism, with many generations of its people passionate about waging jihad. It is a far more Muslim extremist nation than Turkey. Even if the military establishment in Pakistan is willing to embrace India, the Islamic religious power structure in Pakistan is committed to Islamizing South Asia by nook or crook. The Muslim clerics wield enormous influence across the spectrum of the Pakistani society. The clerical outlook towards India continues to be hostile and belligerent. These beliefs are rooted in ancient religious teachings, -- not subject to negotiation or rational discussion. If some people think that soft borders and closer, people-to-people interaction with India will lead to a reformed Pakistan, how come India’ own Muslim population, living day in and day out in a secular and democratic nation has not merged into the mainstream but is also increasingly getting jihadized ( Conclusion: Already reeling under an escalating Islamic fundamentalism, soft borders with Pakistan will speedup the irreversible destruction of India. Reforming Pakistan If India and other nations want to see a moderate and reformed Pakistan that focuses on nation-building rather than jihad, they must first identify why Pakistan got itself into this mess in the first place. A letter of mine published in the Washington Times on Nov. 22, 2002 explains why: Pakistan's undemocratic underpinnings The conclusions found in "Studies say elites spurred to terror" (Business, Wednesday) are incomplete. The question should be, what causes political repression? Pakistan and India were created from 1947 British-ruled India. When the British left, both of these nations inherited democracy. Hindu-majority India has remained secular and democratic, but Muslim-majority Pakistan couldn't sustain democracy and is now a dictatorship. Pakistan also has become a dominant source and sponsor of Islamic terrorism. Pakistan couldn't sustain democracy because the retrogressive political indoctrination taught in its mosques does not allow the separation of church and state. This has led to political repression amid a flowering of Islamic fundamentalism. This conclusion tells us that if the United States wants to make any Islamic state a model nation for democracy, it must first address the issue of the hateful and retrogressive preaching in its mosques. This observation, in combination with the plight of Muslims in India and even in developed European countries, and extremism among wealthy, educated Muslim Arabs make us come to the following inevitable conclusion: Islamic ideology is solely responsible for the plight of Muslims and Muslim majority nations. Islam’s shortcomings must be addressed first before Muslims are given free reign to move about. Otherwise, freedom to travel will be exploited by Pakistani extremists who dominate Islam in Pakistan to wage jihad on infidels such as Hindus. With regard to reforming Islam, it is notable, even within secular, multiethnic and democratic India there exist no reformed version of Islam ( We now reach an even more significant conclusion: To expect reformed Pakistan or even expect Indian Muslims to move away from extremism on their own is unrealistic for a foreseeable future. An Alternate Vision One should view Pakistan and even sections of Indian population as being inflicted with a social disease called Islamic extremism. The right approach here is to quarantine India with respect to Pakistan - the worldwide sponsor of this infection, and eradicate the disease within India and then work to eradicate it in Pakistan and Bangladesh. This should be a win-win situation. However, the act of opening India to Pakistan will lead to this disease further consolidating and expanding into India and eventually destroy it, -- just like the way it is destroying Pakistan and Bangladesh. In the mean time India should focus on wealth creation through continued economic reforms, improved stability, and investment ( Decisions can Wait Many well-educated and capable visionaries leading Indian corporations in the areas such as software and pharmaceutical industries have enabled their companies to compete successfully with companies based in developed nations. However, this level of competence is yet to permeate the ruling class and the media, which appear to be still rooted in the “developing” world category. India will get a leader at some point in near future that reflects this new emerging nation. Such a person should be capable of making world-class decisions. A reminder: China saw a phenomenal growth under President Jiang Zamin -- trained as an engineer. While not discounting the current leadership, which has performed admirably in many ways, I think among the best decisions it can make is to groom the next generation leaders of India and not rush into any major decision vis-à-vis Pakistan at this point. With India finally taking off, risky decisions that could undermine its future must be avoided. It is high time the industry leaders of the emerging India also realize and work toward electing the future generation leaders who can aid wealth creation, promote India’s interests confidently, and make it secure. (The views expressed here are author’s own. The writer is a nuclear physicist based in America. He is also a director of Indian American Intellectuals Forum, a New York-based non-profit organization. His contact address:

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