India Forum Archives
Thursday, July 15, 2004
  Caste And Tribe Based Reservation
Posted by: nachiketa Feb 5 2004, 06:41 PM
I am starting this thread for members to post their opinions on reservations in educational institutions/govt. jobs for SC/ST/OBC. Right now, I feel these reservations are ok. Though it is abused a lot if times, I think it makes a difference. Of course it is also some kind of reparation for the centuries of tyranny over the lower castes. But it must eventually go away. Please don't flame if you do not agree with my views. For the record, I am not eligible for these reservations.
Posted by: mitradena Feb 5 2004, 07:57 PM
I agree with your view. Reservations for OBC/SC & ST should continue. It is our duty to ensure that the common suffering folk of India be given some kind of boost. Also all persons unable to feed themselves properly should be given a basic ration of rice/wheat, dal & at least 1 nutritious vegetable like spinach. But the most important thing is to ensure that the actual people in need get these benifits. Right now there are many rogues who are looting the system with fake ids etc...
Posted by: Krishna Feb 5 2004, 08:37 PM
SC/ST/OBC type reservation quotas are a big No-No. If there has to be anything, to help out the poor I would go with an American system of Financial Aid. But no reservations based on caste/race/religion.
QUOTE
Of course it is also some kind of reparation for the centuries of tyranny over the lower castes.
Dude, WTF you pulled that out from? Why should we pay for something which our forfathers did (Notice my wordings very carefully - I'm accepting it that some bad might have been done in the past, instead of denying it)? By the same logic WTF gonna pay for the centuries of tyranny over us?
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 5 2004, 09:09 PM
Let me give you a very practical reason for allowing reservations If you notice muslims and xtians are constantly agitating for extension of SC benefits to 'Dalit' muslims and 'Dalit' xtians The reason being, reservation has kept 99% of Dalits within hinduism for the last 50 years while slow reform is happening among hindu society There has also been significant amount of reconversions of Dalit muslims and Dalit xtians I saw an article in milligazette about this The so called Dalit leaders , Udit Raj and Ram Vilas Paswan both married upper caste women and yet hypocritically blame the bad upper castes Upper caste hindus need to realise the demographic structure of hindu society Upper caste = 13% OBC = 44% Dalit = 16% Tribal = 8% Even after Mandal, 50% of seats are open to the general category In south India, upper castes are 5%, and still 30% of seats are open to the general category Coming from a tamil brahmin background, tamil brahmins reacted knee jerk to reservations and instead of trying to get a quota for poor brahmins, went against reservations and Dravidianists and missionaries made hay of anti-brahmin propoganda Any time upper castes oppose Mandal, it gives an opening for M-Y type politics The correct posture is to try to get a quota for poor upper castes It is true that only the creamy layer gets reservations, Yet the dalit masses feel that it is their turn to enjoy benefits and even though they dont personally get benefits, they support reservations Reservations are a social contract in effect telling the Dalits that the forward castes are making an attempt to make amends for past discrimination Ask yourself, what is worse Some forward castes working as clerk instead of doctor or mass conversion of dalits to abrahamist religions and later murdering the 'meritorious' upper caste doctor Reservations have created a Dalit middle class for the first time in centuries Opening the economy will create more job opportunities for all Over a few decades as the Dalit and Mandal movements work off steam, reservations will become irrelevant
Posted by: Mudy Feb 5 2004, 09:15 PM
Now there is discremination against higher caste. No college admission, job , plot, house , promotion reservation for higher caste. No one can prosecute them. If they do, then it make headline.. Poor should get financial aid. Education should be for every one. Qualification should be basis for job, education.
Posted by: nachiketa Feb 5 2004, 09:18 PM
QUOTE (Krishna @ Feb 6 2004, 09:07 AM)
SC/ST/OBC type reservation quotas are a big No-No. If there has to be anything, to help out the poor I would go with an American system of Financial Aid. But no reservations based on caste/race/religion.
QUOTE
Of course it is also some kind of reparation for the centuries of tyranny over the lower castes.
Dude, WTF you pulled that out from? Why should we pay for something which our forfathers did (Notice my wordings very carefully - I'm accepting it that some bad might have been done in the past, instead of denying it)? By the same logic WTF gonna pay for the centuries of tyranny over us?
Krishna, As I said, that is just my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine. Of course, I am not in favor of them continuing indefinitely. You may think that you are not getting reparations for injustice done to you, therefore you won't pay reparations for the injustice done by your forefathers. Thats your view and is fine with me. I feel that it is fair to provide reparations for a while.
Posted by: Krishna Feb 5 2004, 09:34 PM
QUOTE (nachiketa @ Feb 5 2004, 10:18 PM)
QUOTE (Krishna @ Feb 6 2004, 09:07 AM)
SC/ST/OBC type reservation quotas are a big No-No. If there has to be anything, to help out the poor I would go with an American system of Financial Aid. But no reservations based on caste/race/religion.
QUOTE
Of course it is also some kind of reparation for the centuries of tyranny over the lower castes.
Dude, WTF you pulled that out from? Why should we pay for something which our forfathers did (Notice my wordings very carefully - I'm accepting it that some bad might have been done in the past, instead of denying it)? By the same logic WTF gonna pay for the centuries of tyranny over us?
Krishna, As I said, that is just my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine. Of course, I am not in favor of them continuing indefinitely. You may think that you are not getting reparations for injustice done to you, therefore you won't pay reparations for the injustice done by your forefathers. Thats your view and is fine with me. I feel that it is fair to provide reparations for a while.
Nachiketa, Leave me out of the discussion for a while i.e. don't worry about what I think! Please explain why you 'feel' that it is fair to provide reparations for a while? You said what you feel, but I fail to see any justification for your feelings! Also what are your views on reparations for us? Does that fit into the equationl?
Posted by: Rajita Rajvasishth Feb 5 2004, 09:35 PM
I first came to India only when I was in 8th std and saw reservation first time on joining med school. I knew nothing of reservation till then other than my parent occassionally ranting about it. The OBCs were applying in both open and reserved category and other reserved categories were applying in reserved only. The reason for this is that OBC categories generally had students who got marks in the range of the open category while people in the other RCs never got marks anywhere near the OBCs or opens. This was a govt college so no donations were permitted. The highest OBC in our class had 96% while the highest non-OBC RC had something like 88%. Now the cutoff for open was 94%. All teh OBCs in the class were from eduated medium to well to do families having vehicles other than bicycles. Most non-OBCs reserved were lower middle class or worse. I hence feel that the real trouble was the OBCs- they apply in both categories and they have no deficiency in financial terms. In my interactions with OBCs it was clear that they did have a social low position either, rather they were far more dominant than Brahmins and vaishyas. Real kshatriyas were very rare in my class. So why reservations for them- the more you encourage them the more they will get entrenched and prevent the system from changing because in India the power lies with the OBCs. Now the BCs in my class were all very poor in their academics. The pass marks for the RC was lower than the open so they kept passing. Then end result was nobody really bothered to improve their educational situation. More attention should be payed to providing educational aids for the non-OBC RCs in education than just passing them. These problems are definitely affecting India's productivity. The BC is not being pressured to show academic improvement because they pass anyhow. They would sometimes mock the opens as how much less they need to study to pass and move on. My intention is not hurt any one but these were just observation of the reservation system in my class and may not be general.
Posted by: nachiketa Feb 5 2004, 09:53 PM
QUOTE (Krishna @ Feb 6 2004, 10:04 AM)
QUOTE
Please explain why you 'feel' that it is fair to provide reparations for a while? You said what you feel, but I fail to see any justification for your feelings! Also what are your views on reparations for us? Does that fit into the equationl?
Krishna, Lets leave reparations for you out of the picture. You agree that your forefathers repressed the lower castes. Is it not fair to give them a chance to catch up? Is it not fair to give them a chance to quickly ramp up to the levels that were denied to them? I feel it is fair to provide reservations to help in this ramp up. Now if you still want me to justify that "feeling", I don't know what to else to say. It is simple morality. GSubbs has provided a number of other obvious tactical and strategic reasons to do this. Now coming to reparations for you, I have nothing to say. Maybe we can ask the descendents of the Afghans/Mughals/Europeans to pay up.. but again if they have no pangs of guilt and do not want to pay up.. hmm.. I don't know what to do.
Posted by: Krishna Feb 5 2004, 09:56 PM
QUOTE (nachiketa @ Feb 5 2004, 10:53 PM)
Krishna, Lets leave reparations for you out of the picture. You agree that your forefathers repressed the lower castes. Is it not fair to give them a chance to catch up? Is it not fair to give them a chance to quickly ramp up to the levels that were denied to them? I feel it is fair to provide reservations to help in this ramp up. Now if you still want me to justify that "feeling", I don't know what to else to say. It is simple morality. GSubbs has provided a number of other obvious tactical and strategic reasons to do this.
That's a fair enough explanation. I can take that!
Posted by: kautilaya Feb 6 2004, 07:32 AM
nachiketa, The question is not whether it is good to help BCs to come up, as I am sure most people will agree that we need to help backward sections of the society to come up. But, the question is whether reservations are the right way to help. I don't think so.
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 6 2004, 10:31 AM
Agree with kautilaya. One way to reform the system is to make it self-sufficient. Students/Clerks/etc can take advantage of reservations but when they start working a percetage of their taxation will go towards funding other backward class students and institutions. It should be upto the person to contribute to a particular institution - preferably out of his/her district/state. As technology advances and becomes cheaper we can make this system work. For example, an OBC candidate gets a job in an office. Out of his taxes lets say the income tax department issues a gift certificate that can be redeemed by institutions that work towards upliftment of backward classes. The person can take this gift certificate and give it to any such instituion outside his home state.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 6 2004, 01:09 PM
I think that there are essentialy just two classes of people in any societey. The haves and the have nots. The have-nots think that there are lots of classes and bicker and fight amongst themselves. I also think thatthe only way to uplift a societey is by education. Education brings self-respect, courage, a degree of financial independence and enables the person/societey to fight dis enfranchisement. A poor brahmin boy in the streets of Mylapore has no better chance of getting a good education than a poor sudhra boy in a village in Tanjore district. A rich sudhra boy in Tanjore district has a better chance than a poor brahmin living right next to IIT madras. The point is we cannot uplift a societey by hack-job policies. This policy of reservations may work very well for vote bank politics , but that is where it stops. The only way to do it is to help those who do not have an opportunity to even "have a shot" at success , to have an equal opportunity to have a shot at improvement. The key phrase is "have a shot"...if one guarantees success even to those who are dis enfranchisied , it is nothing but pandering and patronizing. Ultimately , it causes dissent amongst the most eligible because they feel cheated. I think students who are poor be of any caste , any race any colour need to be given financial and educational aid. Make them as good as they can be as a human and then let them free. Then it is survival of the fittest. The job quota , in my opinion , is destroying the country. "Money cannot buy happiness, but it sure can make life a lot less miserable" .
Posted by: Pradeep Feb 6 2004, 04:23 PM
SSR:
QUOTE
I think students who are poor be of any caste , any race any colour need to be given financial and educational aid. Make them as good as they can be as a human and then let them free. Then it is survival of the fittest. The job quota , in my opinion , is destroying the country.
Perfectly put. Couldn't agree more. Imagine the plight of a poor hardworking UC boy pipped at the post by a LC boy simply by belonging to a different caste. In the new millenium there is no room for reservations of any kind. We need a system like in the US that is 'need blind". If you are able to get into a college on the basis of your merit, the college will pay for your educaiton if you cannot. If you are rich, tough, you will have to pay your way but at least your will not be dropped in favor of someone else with a special birth certificate. It is time to level the playing field for all, in all walks of life. Let's hear it for a Uniform Civil Code, abolition of Article 370, no more mollycoddling of a privileged class, let's put India on the superhighway of progress.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 6 2004, 05:41 PM
I am going to say again From a utopian perspective merit alone sounds good However in reality, Jealousy is a powerful emotion especially if exploited by cunning enemies Hindu society has 3 main segments, Forward castes, OBC, SC/ST Xtian missionaries have been trying for 150 years to split hindu society at these faultlines Reservations is one of the key weapons they use Forward castes being more educated need to think of the big picture Whether it is better to live as lower middle class or stand on merit and get killed by abrahamists when their numbers swell In Tamil Nadu, xtian missionaries used OBC castes against brahmins in the Dravidian movement and reservation was one of the tools used and the foolish brahmins fell into the trap of opposing reservations In Maharashtra, xtian missionaries are trying to split off the OBC castes into a new religion Shiv Dharma ( Shivaji = God ) The Sambhaji brigade is part of this Anytime a forward caste stands on merit, it becomes easy for missionary agents to split OBC. Given the demographic structure of hindu society the only sensible option for forward castes is to try to get a quota for forward caste poor Even in the USA, it is not pure merit There are quotas against Chinese, Indians etc in top univs Ramachandran used the word Shudra In Tamil Nadu, using that word will get you a public lynching A rich Dalit is in some ways worse off than a poor brahmin The poor brahmin will never suffer indignities such as being banned from temples and prevented from well water in rural areas These days, private engineering and medical colleges are open Many engineering seats are vacant As the economy grows, the private sector is the future Civil war with abrahamists is coming within 30 years So it is better not to make a big deal about TEMPERORY reservations and keep every hindu within the fold In my previous posts I had pointed out tactical advantages of reservations There is casteism within muslims and xtians As backward caste muslims and xtians see that backward caste hindus are getting a better deal, there is tendency to reconvert
Posted by: Mudy Feb 6 2004, 06:06 PM
QUOTE
As backward caste muslims and xtians see that backward caste hindus are getting a better deal, there is tendency to reconvert
Yes, it make sense. But now muslim and xtian also claming to be OBC or BC in their religion. Whether they have reservation or not?
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 6 2004, 06:14 PM
Dalit muslims get classed among Hindu OBC in Mandal list In practise few of them are able to out compete hindu OBC Dalit xtians dont get any benefits SC list is open only to Indian religionist Dalits
Posted by: Mudy Feb 6 2004, 06:29 PM
Dalit muslims I was under impression muslims don't have any caste. All are equal. From where these Dalits muslim came.
Posted by: Krishna Feb 6 2004, 07:09 PM
GS, Could you xplain it in a li'l more details.......what's this dalit x-tians & muslims thing? n' why does these so-called dalit-muslims come under Hindu OBCs ??
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 6 2004, 07:21 PM
Per the Indian constitution, only Dalits of Indian religions Hindus, sikhs, jains are eligible for Dalit reservations Dalits of non-Indian religions are eligible for backward class benefits OBC hindus are eligible for backward class benefits Hence if a Dalit converts to an abrahamist religion, he then has to compete with hindu OBC, whereas if he stays in Indian religions he has to compete with hindu dalits ( much easier ) Xtian and muslim conversionists find that reservation benefits prevent mass conversion of Dalits Hence they are trying to expand the Dalit list to include muslim and xtian Dalits Hence any forward caste who complains about Dalit hindu reservations is a greedy, short-sighted XXX who does not see the big picture I repeat it is better for the forward caste hindu to stay alive as a lower middle class than be killed by abrahamists when their numbers increase In muslim society, caste stresses are showing up between Dalit muslims and upper caste muslims In xtian society same thing is happening Visit Dalitchristians.com Keeping reservations for hindu Dalits enables reconversion
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 6 2004, 07:25 PM
Dalit muslims Dr.Ambedkar rejected islam since he felt that islam had caste and all other drawbacks of hindu society and unlike hindu society that had reformers, islamic society had no reformers Indian islam has 3 main castes 1. Ashraf - Foreign invaders and high caste hindu converts 2. Ajlaf - OBC hindu converts 3. Razil - Dalit hindu converts Intercaste marraige is defacto banned All the muslim leadership - Bukhari, etc are Ashraf Hence by hindus reforming caste system, there is scope for Dalit muslim and Dalit xtian reconversion
Posted by: mitradena Feb 6 2004, 09:14 PM
G. Subramaniam, Are you sure majority of Indian muslims are Hindu converts? If so then why do they all have a middle eastern semetic look? I thought the Ajlaf & Razil were descendents of poor low class muslims who accompanied the Upper class muslim invaders into India.
Posted by: Pradeep Feb 6 2004, 09:34 PM
Mitradena: Most of the IMs are hindu converts. Read Prof. KS Lal's book 'Indian Muslims Who are they?' available from Voice of India. There has been so much mixing of the blood and genes that nobody can claim descendance from the original invaders. As far as the fair complexion goes, Kashmiri Pandits, Sindhis and many Punjabi Hindus are also very light skinned. GSubramaniam: Yes, i see the concern about keeping the Dalits in the Hindu fold. However, xtians do enjoy the privileges of OBC even after conversion. Most of the xtians in my college were from the SC/ST category. I don't mean that ALL dalits benefit, but some must be 'cos how else do you explain so many of them in one of the top colleges of the country?
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 6 2004, 09:35 PM
99% of them are ex-hindus Even the pathans used to be hindus until about 950 AD To understand their behavior pattern we have to look at the example of Maoists in China, Nepal, and Cambodia These people are brainwashed from birth, that they are replacing the bad old culture with a new utopian culture and violence is justified to get the utopia ( or 72 virgins ) Polpot went back to 'Year Zero', all traces of Cambodian culture was eradicated Mao did the Cultural revolution wherein much of historical chinese artifacts were destroyed and in Nepal the Maoists are uprooting sanskrit etc Consider muslims as a form of brainwashed naxalites The prophet vandalised Saudi Arabia so much that hardly any hard data on the pre-islamic people survives Saudi Arabia discourages archeologists in the fear that they may prove that the pre-islamic arabs were more civilised than current muslims Just as Indian commies look to China, an Indian muslim looks to Saudi Arabia Any foreign muslim was given high status as soon as he entered India Barani, a muslim scholar asks that Indian muslims be kept in a degraded state Muslims kill each other over inter-caste marraiges in Pakistan
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 6 2004, 09:43 PM
OBC privileges are much less than Dalit privileges Only hindus, sikhs, buddhists are eligible for this About 80% of Indian xtians are Dalits The Indian church leadership is OBC In tamil nadu, the xtians have inter-caste riots often OBC xtians practise untouchability to Dalit xtians Thanks to the large western funds, the church can compensate for the lack of Dalit privileges If a hindu / sikh / buddhist Dalit converts, he is no longer eligible for Dalit privileges, only for OBC privileges But as I read xtian and muslim missionary literature it is clear that reservations for Dalits has prevented mass conversion into abrahamist religions
Posted by: muddur Feb 7 2004, 07:44 PM
We had a BIG or a HUGE discussions on this topic some time back on BRF, probably 2 years back. I am sure Sunil Sainisis and other members there remembers the discussions. Reservations for any reasons is not justifiable. They have to go out of Indian lives and from the Indian politics once and forever, for good. Reservations is nothing but just another form of the continuation of tyranny, misery, ill treatment of people and a form of suppression of the people. No reason but the political reasons and the vote bank politics, can justity reservations. In fact any attempt to divide or draw a line among the Indians by creating legal divides within the social life of Indian people should not be accepted. In the name of reservations all that is happening is that the GOI has tried to create a division within the Indinas based on the people's belief on their gods or the religion, I say it is utter Rubbish and Garbage. GOI should stay away from religion and gender politics. But pity for Indians, it is not the case.
QUOTE
Of course it is also some kind of reparation for the centuries of tyranny over the lower castes. But it must eventually go away.
Islamic invaders ruled India ruthlessly from almost after the Gupta's till the British took over. How do you plan to repair the Islamic tyrannic rule over the Indians ? Also explain me the special status that community enjoys, regardless of the history India has with Islamic invaders. Sharmaji, Don't make BAD history as a cause to justify the inequalities created within the societies, by the politicians.
Posted by: mitradena Feb 7 2004, 07:57 PM
Muddur, Your argument sounds good in theory. But the practicality is very different. Subramaniam has pretty much outlined the best reason why reservation should continue. The backward castes in India form 68% of India's population. You cannot expect them to remain quiet and tolerate injustice for long. Forward Castes who are only 13% of the population need to understand the demographic reality. If the Forward Castes were stupid enough to not become a majority in India despite ruling it for the past 8000+ years, then they themselves are to blame for it. How come before the British came no F.C. ever bothered to conduct a census to find out what the composition of India was? The F.C. needs to wake up to the reality in India & stop complaining.
Posted by: muddur Feb 7 2004, 08:04 PM
QUOTE (mitradena @ Feb 8 2004, 08:27 AM)
Muddur, Your argument sounds good in theory. But the practicality is very different. Subramaniam has pretty much outlined the best reason why reservation should continue. The backward castes in India form 68% of India's population. You cannot expect them to remain quiet and tolerate injustice for long. Forward Castes who are only 13% of the population need to understand the demographic reality. If the Forward Castes were stupid enough to not become a majority in India despite ruling it for the past 8000+ years, then they themselves are to blame for it. How come before the British came no F.C. ever bothered to conduct a census to find out what the composition of India was? The F.C. needs to wake up to the reality in India & stop complaining.
GOVT should be a neutral body and should be trying to treat each Indian as EQUAL. If you say that it is not practical, I can't argue anymore ! Again, if you think that by being 68% of the total population of India, BC/BT or the majority people of India should be allowed to SNATCH the rights of the minority, in this case it is the FC as defined by you, then you should rethink what you just posted. Again, you must then also re define the Indian constitution which gyarantees equal treatment or equal rights to all the Indians. Then go ahead and change the constitution to something like, majority can do what it wants and minorities should keep quiet and understand the realities. Indians never learn, even with the history and the past we have behind us. Reservations are nothing but the BLATANT violation of the Indian constitution. Indian constitution assures and gyarantees the equal rights to all the Indians. Indian politicians did it and created caste based reservations to get 'political' or 'personal' gains in the elections. Which is known as 'vote bank' politics. Fight to correct the mistakes of the past. Don't fight to defend the mistakes of the past.
Posted by: mitradena Feb 7 2004, 08:35 PM
Morally, technically and legally you are 100% correct. The Indian Govt. should treat everyone equally. However the reality in India is that the Govt. has no power to enforce any of its laws. The Mob rules in India. This is an absolute fact. When mobs of backward castes take to the streets armed with swords, guns, knives & pitchforks then no F.C can do anything. All the F.C. will be massacared within 10 minutes. The position of the F.C. in India is the same as that of the whites in south africa, zimbabwe or Latin America. Also note in Bihar what happened. The backwards were armed by the Communist Party and they went on a rampage looting and taking over F.C. lands & property. The F.C. are still alive because they formed armed brigades like the Ranvir sena. The F.C. needs to swallow some pride & accept the new ground realities in India. This is the only way to keep the peace. There is no other choice.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 7 2004, 08:47 PM
Let me add to this Per the Tehelka expose, 30% of Dalits are on the verge of converting to xtianity and only reservations keep them as hindu Want to lose 50 million hindus in 1 day, then stop reservations The US has anti-Indian and anti-Chinese quotas No country has pure merit
Posted by: muddur Feb 7 2004, 10:43 PM
QUOTE
99% of them are ex-hindus Even the pathans used to be hindus until about 950 AD To understand their behavior pattern we have to look at the example of Maoists in China, Nepal, and Cambodia.
ABSOLUTELY ! I have no doubts about this. If one looks at the history of India, Indians knew nothing about Islam until the Islamic plunderers invaded India. One of their major aim and achievement was to spread Islam by hook or Crook. They used force to convert Indians into Islam. People either got converted into Islam or they were killed. To understand this part one should read the Sikh history and understand Guru Gobind Singh's preachings.
Posted by: muddur Feb 7 2004, 10:50 PM
QUOTE (mitradena @ Feb 8 2004, 09:05 AM)
Morally, technically and legally you are 100% correct. The Indian Govt. should treat everyone equally. However the reality in India is that the Govt. has no power to enforce any of its laws. The Mob rules in India. This is an absolute fact. When mobs of backward castes take to the streets armed with swords, guns, knives & pitchforks then no F.C can do anything. All the F.C. will be massacared within 10 minutes. The position of the F.C. in India is the same as that of the whites in south africa, zimbabwe or Latin America. Also note in Bihar what happened. The backwards were armed by the Communist Party and they went on a rampage looting and taking over F.C. lands & property. The F.C. are still alive because they formed armed brigades like the Ranvir sena. The F.C. needs to swallow some pride & accept the new ground realities in India. This is the only way to keep the peace. There is no other choice.
Now you are getting somewhere. If you agree that the mob rules India (whom I claimed as the BAD politicians who created divisions among Indians to create vote banks), then what is your sugestion to change the mob ? The guidelines should come from the TOP and they should be CLEAR ... not to discriminate one Indians against another for any reasons. You don't need POWER to change. You need will power and that comes with tough decisions. At times tough decisions had to be made. It is never too late. Before the divisions get along too far, there should be a time line to put an end to the reservations and every community leaders in India will have to be told to accept EQUALITY among Indians. BIHAR is an exception, It is a Pakistan within. But if all other states change, then people like Lalloo will be forced to accept and adopt to changes. I don't think we should be comparing India with the Zimbabwe or any other nations. Our goal is to move forward. When we do move forward, we must understand that we should rectify the mistakes and not pacify the mistakes. Simple example ... Assume a a family of 10. Out of which 6 people were killed by using brute force a few generations ago. Now how do you recrtify the problem with the past ? Do you want to allow this family which suffered a few years back to kill the people who belonged to the next generation ? No ... the solution is to provide adequate protection and security now. Because we must remember one thing clear. That is we are all Indians. You can't make the son responsible for his father's sins. But one should also make sure that the son will not follow his fathers foot steps. This can only be ensured by providing adequate protection and equal status to both families and also by ensuring that the son is not abused for his fore fathers sins. That's the way to move forward. If it is anything else, then you will be entering a vicious cycle of suppression and opression of one community people at all the times, which you must try to come out of IT when ever possible and as earlier as possible.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 8 2004, 05:55 AM
The world operates on Darwin, not Dharma Xtian missionaries exploit every faultline within hindu society The churning of the backward castes will take a few decades to settle down until then, it is best not to rock the boat You can of course stand on principle and get killed when the backward castes convert to abrahamism We are not talking about killing the forward castes, just that some forward castes may have to settle for lower middle class lifestyle
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 8 2004, 07:39 AM
Currently thanks to privatisation of education, engineering college seats are vacant
Posted by: Pradeep Feb 8 2004, 03:40 PM
GSubramaniam:
QUOTE
The US has anti-Indian and anti-Chinese quotas No country has pure merit
Absolutely untrue! There is NO anti-Indian or anti-anything quota in the US college admission system. There are so many things that determine who gets in - the SAT scores, recommendations from the school, personal statements, interview, and very importantly, what extra-curricular acheivements the students has had. Race figures, but not on paper. There are NO mandated restrictions or preferences like in India where in a given year, it clearly states that of the 6 seats, 3 are reserved for certain people only. In certain situations, it may say that this year in MD admissions in say Pediatrics, only two seats are available, and BOTH are reserved! It is a preference in the US to have as diverse an admission policy as possible, so in some instances, a black woman candidate will get in, provided she is equally capable, the bar is NOT lowered for her. In one of the top Ivy League colleges in NY, four Indian kids were taken last year who ALL belonged to the same graduating class of the same high school. Now, that is unique, and goes to prove that there is indeed no anti-Indian quota. If an Indian kid is good, he gets in. You only have to go the campus of say NYU or Columbia and see for yourself. I am sorry, but I simply do not buy your argument about losing millions of dalits to xtianity if reservations are abolished. I am a strong believer in equal opportunity, and in India's case this has hitherto worked against people with merit.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 8 2004, 06:18 PM
I spent many decades in california and there is an open anti-Chinese and anti-Indian quota in many University of California campuses and a pro-black, pro-latino quota All US colleges have affirmative action and in this the favored groups are blacks and latinos and the disfavored groups are Indians, Chinese and whites Regarding the Indian scenario In tamil nadu, when the system originall operated on pure merit, the 3% brahmins got 80% of seats This led to intense anti-brahmin feelings, exploited by missionaries and grew into the Dravidian movement The Dravidian movement degenerated into anti-hindu movement and muslims and xtians were classified as dravidian Among hindus, caste is a stronger feeling than religion Missionary literature repeatedly laments that Dalits are unwilling to convert since they lose reservations
Posted by: Pradeep Feb 8 2004, 07:15 PM
QUOTE
the 3% brahmins got 80% of seats
This is precisely the reason why there is this perception of anti-Indian and anti-chinese quotas in the US. Asian kids get into college in proportions greater than their percentage in the population. The unwritten bar to admission is thus to facilitate others getting in, thus promoting diversity. In India OTOH, seats are reserved for dalits even when there aren't any available to fill them, the reservations extend not just into the college admissions but in every walk of life including promotions at the highest levels of service. How do you justify an incompetent person becoming a neurosurgeon simply on the basis of caste? The systematic disenfranchisement of a large section of the population simply on the basis of who they are born as (i.e. the reverse of what was done to the dalits historically) is what I object to .
Posted by: muddur Feb 8 2004, 09:30 PM
The churning of the backward castes will take a few decades to settle down until then, it is best not to rock the boat You can of course stand on principle and get killed when the backward castes convert to abrahamism. FYI: Already more than 5 decades have passed. The question is not what the reality is. If you want to talk reality, every TDH knows it. The question is where one must move.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 06:58 AM
Civil war with the abrahamists is coming within 5 decades and you need every hindu on our team If we can put up with reservations for 5 decades, put up with them for another 5 decades Think of reservations as a form of financial aid to backward castes that neutralises missionary money power Take for example kerala, a 100 % literate state The backward castes are led by Natesan, who is against the creamy layer exclusion for OBC Natesan is a millionaire and has blind following among OBC Natesan sees the need for hindu unity against islam and xtianity, yet he cant give up his casteism As the economy expands and privatisation of medical and engineering colleges takes place, reservations are slowly becoming irrelevant
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 11:23 AM
GS, Lot you are saying make sense. But as I belong to higer caste a most most disadvantage caste now in India. Why higher caste numbers are less now, because we were most persecuted people on earth. When ever invaders attacked us, we were always first on line to be killed. Because, we were either belongs to fighting force or priest or traders class. Brahmins were always target of invaders, other religion. We were least converted class also. If you read Arthashastra, most conservative rules were imposed on Brahmins then kshastriya then Vaishya and least restriction on shudras. Even in modern times it is same, now it is conversion blackmail. I salute my ancestors, who survived all type of assaults and kept our Dharma intact. My sole reason to move abroad was biased Mandal commission. I agree we are spreading Dharma abroad now especially in Paataal lok.
Posted by: Krishna Feb 9 2004, 11:41 AM
I think at the end it comes to a decision where we have to use our heads instead of heart. Instead of contemplating what's right or wrong, IMO, we just have to do what is 'right.' I don't agree with GS' points at all, but there is nothing with which I can refute his args.
Posted by: k.ram Feb 9 2004, 11:55 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 9 2004, 11:53 PM)
GS, Lot you are saying make sense. But as I belong to higer caste a most most disadvantage caste now in India. Why higher caste numbers are less now, because we were most persecuted people on earth. When ever invaders attacked us, we were always first on line to be killed. Because, we were either belongs to fighting force or priest or traders class. Brahmins were always target of invaders, other religion. We were least converted class also. If you read Arthashastra, most conservative rules were imposed on Brahmins then kshastriya then Vaishya and least restriction on shudras. Even in modern times it is same, now it is conversion blackmail. I salute my ancestors, who survived all type of assaults and kept our Dharma intact. My sole reason to move abroad was biased Mandal commission. I agree we are spreading Dharma abroad now especially in Paataal lok.
Mudy, you are absolutely right. It is conversion blackmail and well intentioned hindus who want to rectify the past (as they were told) fall for it. From this comes ideas such as 90% reservations, or make a dalit a sakaracharya (no matter what the qualification is) etc etc. Even if all the above are done, missionaries and mullahs are not going to stop and will find something else to assault hindus and sanatana dharma. Pray how many yadavs did Laloo help? Why can't they just make everything caste blind (as far as the Indian quota system goes) and based it on "economic conditions of their families" as well as "merit"? Further any family or person avails of such facility should be given only ONE time in his/her life and not dole things through out their lives. They should remove "caste" things in applications, much as they should remove "race" in US. No matter who satisfies this condition. Of the 3% brahmins or FC, I am sure there are more than 50-60% who cannot afford basic things in India, let alone education. Yes, even I came to US because of mandal commission etc etc.
Posted by: rhytha Feb 9 2004, 12:13 PM
Very nice , since you guys have suffred because of caste reservations and stuff, u are whining that caste's should go or all reservations should be done with etc. tongue.gif Well what happens to all lower class plp who were suffering because of the same castism all these years. They were not allowed to enter temples and learn vedas or get educated or whatever, but now since the wind is blowing in thier direction all u guys have started "yes caste is bad, we should abolish it", lol, because its not in you favor laugh.gif
Posted by: k.ram Feb 9 2004, 12:22 PM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Feb 10 2004, 12:43 AM)
Very nice , since you guys have suffred because of caste reservations and stuff, u are whining that caste's should go or all reservations should be done with etc. tongue.gif Well what happens to all lower class plp who were suffering because of the same castism all these years. They were not allowed to enter temples and learn vedas or get educated or whatever, but now since the wind is blowing in thier direction all u guys have started "yes caste is bad, we should abolish it", lol, because its not in you favor laugh.gif
NO not at all Rhytha, I think you misunderstood me and the others. But I will speak to myself. Yes they should be rectified, Yes we have to acknowledge past things, but everyone in INdia suffered not just a segment of people. If anything, let it be equitable. That is all I am trying to say. This pigeon-holing people into different segments is exactly what caste system did, didn't it? So why can't we improve the model further? That's all.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 12:49 PM
rhytha, I have been to hundreds of temple in North India, no one ever asked me, my caste. I don't know about south. I learnt about my caste when I was in 10th class, while filling admission form. No one taught me atleast, to discrimnate. But yes, now I don't see any doctor who comes from reserved quota. Frankly, I don't have confidence on them. In my graduated.gif class, upper caste lowest admission cut off marks were 79% and for reserved quoto, some were waiting for compartment result. Highest marks among reserved quoto was 41% and he was son of rich Judge. Reserved quoto student were more confident of becoming IAS or IPS officer, atleast never hesistated to show our place in modern Indian society. Yes, we got bullied by them.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 01:09 PM
Why not 49% reservation for women, who are in worst condition than any caste of India? Are reserved caste condition are worse than women of India? If women of India is fighting against all odd, why can't others do. Very soon Indian women will be an extinct group. the way utlra sound business is a boom in India.
Posted by: Viren Feb 9 2004, 02:19 PM
QUOTE
Very nice , since you guys have suffred because of caste reservations and stuff, u are whining that caste's should go or all reservations should be done with etc.
R: You might notice that most who have responded in this thread are not in India and don't have a personal stake in how reservation is decided in India. Indians and India have to decide as to what kind of India they want for the future. Do you want to promote meritocracy or some kind of caste based whatever-cracy? Like others in this thread, I too moved out of India - seeing kids immolate themselves in Delhi over Mandal was the last straw for me. As a minority in a foreign land, till date I have not requested for any favors from the majority - though there are plenty available (yes there are if you know where to look). When you go out and buy some service would you buy it because it has the best value and quality or would you buy it because it was made by a Hindu/Muslim/Dalit/or someone from SC/ST/OBC? If reservations should be allowed because one community was suffering in whatever age - then lets apply it across the board. Let us reserve seats and jobs for all those Hindus who were masacared during the 600 odd years of mughal rule. How about reservation for all those hindus who lost their lives and belongings when they had to flee from their own homeland coz a handful decide to crave our nation in two halves. How about reservations for the kids of jawans go gave up the life so that the tomorrow is safer for other Indians? How about those lacs of Kashmiri Pandits? How about reservations for those 60 odd people in Sabarmati Express or those thousand Muslims in Godhra or those thousands or Sikhs affected by '84 riots in Delhi. I could go on till the time we reserve 99% of all seats and jobs.
QUOTE
Well what happens to all lower class plp who were suffering because of the same castism all these years. They were not allowed to enter temples and learn vedas or get educated or whatever, but now since the wind is blowing in thier direction all u guys have started "yes caste is bad, we should abolish it", lol, because its not in you favor
Which temple are we talking about? In Mumbai I haven't across any temple that would prevent access to someone because of his faith? Who's preventing anyone from reading vedas? In this day and age of information access, if someone complains of not being able to learn vedas, it plain BS - they just can't blame others for not being able to get off their sorry behind. I have no arguments against the injustices against the 'lower castes' for couple centuries. But for this generation to claim that they are oppressed or subdued just dosen't hold water. Helping the economically backward in terms of free education/books etc is one thing - but having some incomptent handle critical issues just because he is a son or daughter is something else. Would it be fair to say that we should in that case even let Rahul/Priyanka run the country - after all their father/grandma were killed in line of duty - surely those poor souls have suffered a lot. And if I'm not mistaken, they too can't read vedas since it must have been someone's fault. smile.gif In this day and age of gobalization the best and brightest will succeed only if their talent and skills are not held back because of some reservations. Else we'll keep complaining as to why India dosen't have its own Microsoft or Intel or Pfizer. Of course we can keep driving into future with our eyes glued to the rear view mirror too - our paki neighbors are experts in this.
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 9 2004, 02:47 PM
Caste based politics and policy is not going to go away. We must accept that. What we can do is . (1) make it irrelevant in a positive way. As GS has said earlier private colleges and privatisation is making caste irrelevant anyways. A balance can be maintained here where all people from all castes can keep the old traditions alive. All dalit temples, dalit festivals, festival of dalits must be encouraged. The idea is NOT to erase the heritage of dalits but to promote it while not according any special advantage to a section of society as codified in law. OR (2) make it work in a positive way. Change the system so that a person who has benefitted from such a system gives something back to the society. Even better would be a system where I as a non-dalit member will be able to provide my resources to the cause of dalits DIRECTLY and NOT INDIRECTLY. BTW... from this article from Prof R Vaidyanathan - one of my favorite sulekha columnist. http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305860
QUOTE
Social Changes What is more important is the significant social changes that have taken place in Indian trade and commerce and which has not been fully understood or debated. A survey by the CSO (Economic Census-98) based on enterprises reveals an interesting picture. The number of enterprises surveyed was 30.35 millions, employing around 84 million, and out of this, 45 percent of the units are owned by SC/ST/OBCs employing 14 million. Nearly 8 percent is owned by SCs, employing 2.3 millions, and 4 percent of the total units employing 1.2 million were owned by STs. Huge churning is taking place in the `community' composition of business at the bottom of the pyramid. More interesting is that nearly 80 percent of this are self financed. This shows that not just banks and FIs but community and caste based financing is also an important part of our economic markets and growth. The empowerment of social groups, which comes out of their participation in business and commerce rather than in government jobs, is slowly taking place. This empowerment through business and commerce, even though at the bottom of the pyramid, gives raise to political power at lower levels. Unfortunately, this has not been adequately discussed or focused on. Not only that, in the educational sphere, substantial changes are taking place with the number of years of schooling in the 5-14 age group for males going up from 2.71 years to 3.46 years and, more importantly, for females going up from 1.91 to 3.11 years between 1983 to 1999 (based on NSS survey). Among SC/ST females, it has gone up from 1.27 to 3.05, and among Muslim females, it has moved from 1.62 to 2.71. This implies that the gender and community gap in the educational sphere is getting reduced in the last decade. This creates another type of empowerment among girls belonging to these groups.
Posted by: Viren Feb 9 2004, 02:58 PM
QUOTE (rajesh_g @ Feb 9 2004, 05:47 PM)
(1) make it irrelevant in a positive way. As GS has said earlier private colleges and privatisation is making caste irrelevant anyways.
Rajesh: This solves the problem only partially. Private engineering and medical colleges costs serious money which most people from middle class (hindu/muslims/christians/jews/sikhs and of course dalits/sc/st etc) can't afford. Besides how do you tackle reservations with respect to promotions. I personally know of a case back in our anscestoral village where a no-good guy who was student of an able headmaster in a school was made principal of that same school ranking over that very same headmaster who used to beat the crap out of this guy when as he was always upto some mischeif. Was one of the ultimate irony. I'm sure there are thousands across the country like this.
Posted by: Viren Feb 9 2004, 03:02 PM
Correct me here - if you are a hindu or say sikh or jew in India and don't have some serious dough to shell out or any "connections" or IQ of 180+ - tough luck eh?
Posted by: k.ram Feb 9 2004, 03:15 PM
No temple in S.India I have been have discrimated as well. If things like that happen it is more of exception than a rule, no matter what happens. I went a Baptist Church in US and they cold shouldered me, as I told them I was a hindu and did not want to convert (as they were tying to convert me). Pray tell me, what kind of caste/class/religious system is that? I just went there for a recital of a colleague's daughter's recital of Carmena Burana.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 03:17 PM
What thousand, I know someone, who is highly qualified Phd, through out gold medalist, writer of over 100 books, was supersede for position of Chairman by graduated.gif (third class) with only 6 years of experience only degree he had was SC. Yes, he quit his job and decided to take teaching as profession. Even then he is well respected in his area and most sought person. He is still working at the age of 72.
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Feb 9 2004, 03:19 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 9 2004, 03:09 PM)
Very soon Indian women will be an extinct group. the way utlra sound business is a boom in India.
Off topic, but what you say has some truth to it. The sex ratio in India is dangerously skewed and the consequences of this could be disasterous for for India. I already fear we may see certain dangerous consequences of this in the near future. Its impact may simply not be realized in various problematic situation, beacuse it is largely overlooked. Certain subtle issues with Indian women are also further crunching the situation in terms of number of fertile women available in society. At the same time I think reservation for women is also problematic for Indian society due to certain fundamental changes in other directions.
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 9 2004, 03:21 PM
Viren, I come from a brahmin family and I have seen reservations at work. I know the system needs reform. And I am not even trying to lay out some grand policy in one small post. You are free to come up with better suggestions. We need solutions because the problem does exist. My main point(s) were.. - the current reservations system needs large-scale reform and NOT complete abolishment. - as things are upper caste hindus do infact have a better chance of coming out good in life then lower castes. the tide may be turning but serious work needs to be done. - most of all , what is seriously required is a "feel good" with dalit flavour, kinda like "dalits shining" campaign. until that happens (a) the rhetoric will persist in the old sixties language. (cool.gif one will have to admit that there has been some kind of unfair practice in the past. A self-confident dalit is as important to the future or hinduism as a confident brahmin is. - in general, goverment must start privatising social sectors also. some way of having tax payers directly contributing their taxes to social-service institutions will instill more integrity as also force government to withdraw from such divisive(?) policies. This will free up our public discourse from such divisive categories as also make way to more national integration. This govt. as proxy/mai-baap for the entire nation leads to many such problems .
Posted by: Pradeep Feb 9 2004, 03:54 PM
Rytha, we all defend the laws/customs we benefit from and wish to change the ones that are against our interests. Human nature being what it is, I understand and respect your opinions. This is what led the majority of white people to condone slavery, exterminate Native Americans and grab their lands, all in the name of divine sanction and secret (sometimes overt) greed. This same attitude continues to fester like a wound in our secular fabric. Ennui, inertia, fear of the unknown, call it what you will, there is vehement opposition to changing the status quo. This is slowly stifling our education system. So many people on this forum and elsewhere have left India to pursue careers abroad. Yes, a part of this brain-drain is surely due to the frustration at finding that your talents and hard work are not appreciated in your own country, while you can shine amongst the best in a foreign land. I also understand the need for upliftment of the down and out in rural areas of India. However, most of these dalits never make it to high school, far less college and postgraduate education. I say help these people rise beyond the daily grind of poverty. In urban India OTOH, there is no reason why dalits should be treated any different. As I have said before, in many instances, you can't tell who is a dalit in the first place. You can live with someone, go out and drink, see the movies, drive around etc., in other words live the same life-style and suddenly find that this guy gets the coveted promotion because unknown to you he belonged to the dalit class all the time. Amercan blacks have a reason to complain even today because they are visible as black from a mile off, not so with the urban dalits in India. As others have said, it is not just the dalit who suffered historically, the brunt of the savagery fell upon the higher castes in most invasions, as these were symbolic of the native culture. In any revolution from within or without, it is the intelligentsia and the elite (be it higher caste or higher status) who suffer the most. Witness the French revolution, PolPot, Stalin, Mao and so many others. GS does make a point about the xtian proselytizers but somehow I am not convinced keeping the dalits in the Hindu fold is going to make a difference. What is REALLY going to make a difference is the entire Hindu population waking up and smelling the coffee. Read my posts in the 'temples' thread in response to Rytha again. Naysayers, negationists, apologists - if we can wake up these apathetic Hindus, we need fear nothing.
Posted by: Viren Feb 9 2004, 04:51 PM
I'm Hindu and I don't come from a Brahmin family and all I have to do is look around in our anscestoral home to see that we have not "benefited" from anything in any century including this one. Yes we enjoyed the tranquility and peace of the temples or read Gita or sang a few bhajans now and then - but that was about it. And to be honest, most other friends in India that I know of (or those who are abroad) come from a similar background. So in a sense, I don't feel that I owe anyone anything much less some fast tracked career previliges over those deserving ones.
QUOTE
the current reservations system needs large-scale reform and NOT complete abolishment
This quota/reservation were all created for vote-banks. Remove the vote banks, you'll see as to how quickly this nonsense disappears. For starters (talking through hat here as I know it'll never happen) we should get our politicians to reserve 80% of the MLAs, MPs seats to SC/ST/OBCs - only 20% for all other Hindus/Muslims/Christians/Jews/Sikhs You think if the shoe is in the other foot these fools will give up all that they have worked for? Why should an other average Indian?
QUOTE
A self-confident dalit is as important to the future or hinduism as a confident brahmin is.
I think true solution will come when both a dalit or hindu or muslim starts viewing themselves as Indians first.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 06:20 PM
Sorry no sympathy for Mandal victims ---- Even after Mandal, 50% of the seats are open for general category In south India we have had 70% quota for 30 years and only 30% for open general seats And except for MBBS, Engineering all other seats are open and there are many career options with privatisation As far as Mandal- NRIs already these upper castes were upper middle class, else they could not have migrated abroad These upper castes were not facing persecution but rather the prospect of a lower middle class lifestyle As far as muslim invasions go, it was the backward castes that rolled back islam The army of Rana Pratap in his exile was made up of bhils In south India, there is an inscription of Vema Reddy, who led the revolt to expel Islam from south India 1330-1340 "I, Vema Reddy, a member of the fourth Varna, after the kshatriyas were killed by the evil turks, in order to protect cows and brahmins, took up arms and expelled the invader " In the meantime. the rajputs of UP, Bihar gave their daughters to muslims The banias financed Aurangzeb When the Marathas were liberating India, the bania leaches extracted high amounts of interest from Peshwa Baji Rao ( RC. Majumdar ) A good many Dalits are ex-kshatriyas The Paswan caste used to rule a kingdom in India and after the muslim invasion fell into poverty and took up menial jobs Many of the so called criminal castes and tribes used to be martial castes who were disarmed by the british
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 06:32 PM
Affirmative action vs Quotas, need for diversity etc --- In practicality this is just a play on words both mean the same At least in India, the Dalit candidate has to pass the exam In US, functionally illiterate blacks are admitted to college The US had official anti-jewish quotas until about 1950
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 06:38 PM
It typically takes 2-3 generations for a family from Dalit background to catch up Thats why I said this should settle down in another 50 years
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 06:40 PM
Rural India Here Dalits are banned from temples, well water etc A rich Dalit faces handicaps a poor brahmin will not
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 06:52 PM
Mandal formula vs Karpoori Thakur formula Karpoori Thakur formula was 27% extra reservations of which 5% for women, 5% for forward caste poor, 17% for male OBC Mandal was 27% for OBC ( no special sub-quota for women or poor of the forward castes ) Mandal was a more hostile formula and was deliberately adopted by VP.Singh in consultation with mullahs and missionaries to permanently fracture hindu society Foolish upper caste hindus in north India took up the bait and reacted violently to Mandal which in turn led to abominations like M-Y, run by Mulayam and Lalloo Uma Bharti, Vinay Katiyar, Modi, Togadia are all OBC Going back to Tamil Nadu, after 50 years of dravidianism, anti-brahminism is slowly going down The Kanchi Mutt has many Dalit sponsors and many OBC sponsors Think of what happens when you shake a pepsi bottle and then open it The fizz is initially strong and then it weakens and disappears As far as muslim atrocities go, the upper castes made a foolish decision in following Gandhi and preventing population exchange
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 06:53 PM
QUOTE
Rural India Here Dalits are banned from temples, well water etc A rich Dalit faces handicaps a poor brahmin will not
That is the main problem when people give one our two incidence to justify what they believe. I haven't discremenated anyone in my life, never asked anyone their caste etc, But i was bullied in college by lower caste. 10 upper caste girl get raped in Delhi, it never make news, But one lower caste girl get raped, whole parliament stands still. Whole media fill with news etc. This is discrimination against Higher caste. You gave some incidence about higher caste being traitor. Well could you explain me where are all ashram, where are all vedic scholar now. All are vanished from earth. Whole culture not existing at all disappeared. If you were familiar with Gurkul, they never used last name, just to hide caste. It is politician and people with own aganda come up with this theory and justify. Do you know during Islamic period Brahmins were burnt alive? Traderes lost their hands and Kshatryia were fighting most of the time to save king and public (lower caste).
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 07:07 PM
I can assure you that in 50% of villages in tamil nadu, Dalits are banned from village temple by OBC Missionaries are making hay of this I work with hindutva groups in tamil nadu and re-educating OBC villagers regarding Dalits is main issue In my ancestral village, we renovated the temple and faced problems from OBC who did not want Dalits to enter temple The vedic scholar disappearance dates only after british rule and even more rapid decline during secular rule When Shivaji was figthing the mughals the mughal armies were led by Rajputs Rape is rape and should be exposed
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 07:32 PM
IQ and quotas ---- In my engineering college days, we had OBC quota, open seats and SC quota The SC candidates averaged roughly an IQ of 100 The OBC candidates averaged roughly 120 the Open candidates averaged 130 Since IQ follows a bell curve, some OBC candidates were brighter than some open seat candidates I would have to say that any OBC candidate who graduated.gifd was on the whole just as competent as an open seat candidate who graduated.gifd A few of the SC candidates did not graduated.gif
Posted by: k.ram Feb 9 2004, 07:47 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Feb 10 2004, 07:02 AM)
Affirmative action vs Quotas, need for diversity etc --- In practicality this is just a play on words both mean the same At least in India, the Dalit candidate has to pass the exam In US, functionally illiterate blacks are admitted to college The US had official anti-jewish quotas until about 1950
Sorry GS, I do not understand your logic at all. But this my last post on this thread.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 08:10 PM
I am not explaining logic I am explaining reality Life is unfair, get used to it All countries have quotas Minorities who shine face reverse discrimination in all countries This goes by different names quotas, affirmative action, diversity, what not bottom line, merit gets shelved
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 08:17 PM
QUOTE
Foolish upper caste hindus in north India took up the bait and reacted violently to Mandal
Well, that agitation worked, A****ole SOB VP.Singh resigned and that brought end to his political career also. He is suffering from Cancer, well God is watching, i hope and wish he should also suffer like youths who self immolated and their family.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 9 2004, 08:34 PM
Mandal is still here What that did was alienate OBC hindus And thanks to the privatisation drive, the economy is booming and Mandal has not become the calamity that upper caste north Indians thought it would be As I said the key is free markets, and a growing economic pie
Posted by: Viren Feb 9 2004, 09:00 PM
GS:
QUOTE
Rural India Here Dalits are banned from temples, well water etc
Now does this rural India have a different law and order than rest of India? I'm sure that there are thousands of Indian women who are denied some basic rights too, so should we reserve say 75% of seats for women - I sincerely don't mind. After what our women have undergone with female infanticide, dowry, sati etc for past thousand years, I say more power to them.
QUOTE
As far as Mandal- NRIs already these upper castes were upper middle class, else they could not have migrated abroad These upper castes were not facing persecution but rather the prospect of a lower middle class lifestyle
Well I guess I'll have to ask you for the defination of upper middle class here! The upper caste who are rich (by whatever your standards of defining rich) would easily pay for private medical/engineering college and all family wealth could have kept him a comfortable life style in India right? Now for a lower middle class guys who's taken all those loans to pay for the privatisation, what's his incentive to live in India and work for rest of his life just to repay a loan? Not everyone who goes abroad comes from a rich background. Nor is a SC/ST/OBC guy who gets a engineering or medical seat any poorer than the person whose seat he steals through the backdoor. So let's stop stereotyping as to who is rich or poor. I knew of rich underserving people who have used caste to push ahead of the deserving poor.
QUOTE
Even after Mandal, 50% of the seats are open for general category
So are you complaining that only 50% were reserved or the 50% that are in open general category are going unclaimed?
QUOTE
And except for MBBS, Engineering all other seats are open and there are many career options with privatisation
So why is the reservation limited only to those pursuing medical and engineering degrees? Why not reserve say 70% seats for law or CA or other streams? I say let's put quota on every elected office - let's see our politicians will put their money where their mouth is. As far as your claim about privatisation, what does is cost to get into a private medical or engineering college? Why should a perfectly deserving candidate go pay through his nose to private institutions when another lesser competent person is given a free ride? Basically you are asking this guy to pay for the others education.
QUOTE
In US, functionally illiterate blacks are admitted to college
Now which college is this? Under what program are such illiterates admitted? Any figures of non-black illiterates who are admitted.
QUOTE
The US had official anti-jewish quotas until about 1950
Yes. And this very US, in early 1800s there used to 'Irish need not apply' signs on business. In this very US, the blacks who were promised couple hundred dollars, piece of land and four mules for slavery reparations are still waiting.
QUOTE
Life is unfair, get used to it
Well, that's the chalta hai attitude. We might as well throw all sense of fairness out of the window and start devying up stuff based on color or skin or last name.
QUOTE
All countries have quotas
I'm sincerely interested in knowing about how quotas in other countries work? Surely there are oppressed masses in other parts of the world too. Mudy: Well said about VP Singh - it's Karma.
Posted by: mitradena Feb 9 2004, 10:22 PM
Well the question I have is are these quotas they same in all parts of India? In parts of North India FCs are a very high percentange: Jammu = 40% Uttarakhand & himachal = over 60% Uttar Pradesh = 20% Rajasthan = 24% So here the quotas are clearly unfair for FCs?
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 9 2004, 10:28 PM
10 upper caste girl get raped in Delhi, it never make news, But one lower caste girl get raped, whole parliament stands still Is the above statement based on facts? Or is this a rhetorical BS. Many upper caste people are pissed with the reservations, since they were not good enough to clear the entrances. And yes many of you left India because of Mandal. Good riddance! My o my, how much you guys sound like the white people who whine against affirmative action. I fully support reservations. Except for GS few of you can see the bigger picture of how reservations have foiled the design of the soul hunters and is leading to the consolidation of the Hindu society. Disclaimer: I was not eligible for reservations.
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 9 2004, 10:37 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 9 2004, 11:53 PM)
Why higher caste numbers are less now, because we were most persecuted people on earth. When ever invaders attacked us, we were always first on line to be killed. Because, we were either belongs to fighting force or priest or traders class. Brahmins were always target of invaders, other religion. We were least converted class also. If you read Arthashastra, most conservative rules were imposed on Brahmins then kshastriya then Vaishya and least restriction on shudras.
When it comes to the sufferings of the "upper caste" ancestors many are willing inheritors of the legacy but not of the sins. Three cheers for reservations!
Posted by: rhytha Feb 9 2004, 10:46 PM
Viren your are comparing only the dalits and forward casts in metros and citys. Here you might find some(or all dalits) richer or equal to forward caste's.
QUOTE
Now does this rural India have a different law and order than rest of India?
Thats true. All you have to do is step into villages and take a look. Most of dalits don't own any land(some dalits do, and few dalits do own a lot), work on upper caste fields, and live on hand to mouth existance. To educate them and lift them out of thier generational lifecycle, u need to give them enough incentives and subsides. This is a case of few suffering for the larger good. Also casteism and reservations are here to stay. smile.gif I don't know about other states, my father worked in backwards classe's department and said it did have marked results in last 30 yrs, with atleast some percentages of the SC getting educated and breaking thier generational lifecycle. As usual he said there is miles to go. smile.gif
Posted by: Krishna Feb 9 2004, 10:58 PM
QUOTE (vijnan_anand @ Feb 9 2004, 11:37 PM)
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 9 2004, 11:53 PM)
Why higher caste numbers are less now, because we were most persecuted people on earth. When ever invaders attacked us, we were always first on line to be killed. Because, we were either belongs to fighting force or priest or traders class. Brahmins were always target of invaders, other religion. We were least converted class also. If you read Arthashastra, most conservative rules were imposed on Brahmins then kshastriya then Vaishya and least restriction on shudras.
When it comes to the sufferings of the "upper caste" ancestors many are willing inheritors of the legacy but not of the sins. Three cheers for reservations!
Just because u see something 'good' in someone and decide to replicate it.....it doesn't mean you have to take the 'bad' as 'Buy 1 get 1 free' type deal!
Posted by: rhytha Feb 9 2004, 11:05 PM
QUOTE (Krishna @ Feb 10 2004, 11:28 AM)
QUOTE (vijnan_anand @ Feb 9 2004, 11:37 PM)
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 9 2004, 11:53 PM)
Why higher caste numbers are less now, because we were most persecuted people on earth. When ever invaders attacked us, we were always first on line to be killed. Because, we were either belongs to fighting force or priest or traders class. Brahmins were always target of invaders, other religion. We were least converted class also. If you read Arthashastra, most conservative rules were imposed on Brahmins then kshastriya then Vaishya and least restriction on shudras.
When it comes to the sufferings of the "upper caste" ancestors many are willing inheritors of the legacy but not of the sins. Three cheers for reservations!
Just because u see something 'good' in someone and decide to replicate it.....it doesn't mean you have to take the 'bad' as 'Buy 1 get 1 free' type deal!
Kris, vijnan_anand was talking about "inheritance" not replication smile.gif
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 11:14 PM
QUOTE
Is the above statement based on facts? Or is this a rhetorical BS.
It is a fact and not BS.
QUOTE
nce they were not good enough to clear the entrances
We were able to clear entrance test and successful without any resevation. You , How many SC, OBC students you can see? Question is equality. Indian consitution talk about equal right to all citizen. I don't see it. You are for reservation? How about reservation for Indian women? I will ask 49% for women. Indian women situation is worse than any SC or OBC. Lack of education, worst health benefit, discremanation from centuries, even today.
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 9 2004, 11:43 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 10 2004, 11:44 AM)
QUOTE
Is the above statement based on facts? Or is this a rhetorical BS.
It is a fact and not BS.
Please tell us more about the incident in which ten upper caste girls were raped in Delhi and the press/parliament remained quiet?
Posted by: Mudy Feb 9 2004, 11:48 PM
vijnan_anand, It happened in Dec. 1996 ( I can't recall exact date).
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Feb 10 2004, 12:00 AM
One thing people should realize is that a stratified society is the reality of human existence. I have mentioned this many times on other forums and people from Bharata have reacted violently. Let us face some issues of life squarely: 1) people do not possess equal abilities- the evidence for this is very strong. It is not clear if the differences can be attributed to genetics, or peri-natal environment. 2) People with similar views, appearance and/ or language tend to group together. This statement may be debated but a number of surveys support it. In the US it is highly contentious issue. 3)People would like establish security for their kids. After all life is all about passing ones genes on. The result of these forces is that stratification will exist and will continue to be perpetuated. Nepotism definitely plays a major role in life. So if we equalize society artificially today, then a new varNa system will automatically come in. So we must aim for equity but force equality.
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 10 2004, 12:35 AM
QUOTE (Hauma Hamiddha @ Feb 10 2004, 12:30 PM)
So if we equalize society artificially today, then a new varNa system will automatically come in. So we must aim for equity but force equality.
H^2 : I am not arguing that all people have equal abilities. I am not clear about your point regarding reservations though. Are you suggesting that the "lower" castes are intellectually inferior and reservations will not make much of a difference? Do you share the views of Herrnstein and Murray? I am yet to be convinced that the caste system is the best way to stratify society
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 06:19 AM
Viren --- Blacks in US colleges about 20 years ago, I was a grad student earning money as part time tutor of black students who were admitted to a top US college Many of them were not even at 9th grade level and thanks to 'affirmative action' they had been admitted and then to cover it up, were given lots of additional tution In many inner city schools, the education levels are below 9th grade even after passing high school Life is full of tough choices I would rather that some 'deserving' upper caste students live a lower middle class life, than being murdered when the abrahamists take power by mass conversion
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 07:27 AM
Quotas in muslim countries All muslim countries have quotas for muslims and against talented minorities Eg being Malaysia
Posted by: Pradeep Feb 10 2004, 08:38 AM
GS
QUOTE
All muslim countries have quotas for muslims and against talented minorities Eg being Malaysia
Off topic: For all the talk about reservations, think about this for a moment: India is the MOST secular country in the world. Perhaps too secular. Even in the bastion of democracy that the US is perceived to be, there are no holidays for any religion other than xtianity. Yes, the NY jews take off during passover etc and the schools are closed but there is no national holiday for any religious day other than Christmas. All the states do not observe Martin Luther King day either. The Mormons who have a very different system of beliefs still have no sanction for polygamy. Contrast that with India where every religion is blessed with their holy days and holidays, where their founders are respected by everyone. The separate civil code however is an anachronism that should be booted out ASAP.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 09:27 AM
Per Konrad Elst, UCC will defang the mullah and this will lead to riots on scale of 1947 and at least 100 x more than Ayodhya riots The day hindu society gets the spine to enforce existing laws on muslims, which they openly flout, we can discuss UCC Repeat the Gujurat model of hindu cohesion all over India, and UCC then becomes feasible
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Feb 10 2004, 11:04 AM
QUOTE (vijnan_anand @ Feb 10 2004, 02:35 AM)
Are you suggesting that the "lower" castes are intellectually inferior and reservations will not make much of a difference? Do you share the views of Herrnstein and Murray? I am yet to be convinced that the caste system is the best way to stratify society
Not really. The main premise of M and H was that there is an inheritence of low intelligence (they do not press that this inheritence is genetic). So the children of low intelligence people will have low intelligence and so it will be with their chlidren. Over small time windows this pattern may have some truth to it but that is not at all the thrust of my point. Secondly M and H introduce a racial factor in distinguish the low intelligence section as being predominantly black and the high intelligence section as predominant white-"Asian". This latter point is one of the highly contentious issues of their claims, and is not relevant to India. Evidence suggests that while there is indeed some molecular divergence between the Indian castes they are still quite deeply connected by a noticeable degree of gene flow. I am not at all suggesting that something makes the Indian lower castes of lower intelligence. As Rajita and Subramanian mentioned the OBCs at least fare as well as opens. The Dalits do somewhat worse, but that perhaps arises due their much lower access to cutting edge education the higher castes can procure. Once this is taken care of they appear to rise closer to the rest. The point I was making is: imagine we remove all preexisting socio-economic inequities (that is we artificially make whole of Indian society really equal opportunity by removing any effects of inheritences; remove all tags like brahmin, shudra etc and mix them up). Then still intelligence will follow a bell curve in this mixture. So the high end will start segregating from the low end and imposing a new stratification. So even if we rest all pre-existing inequities innate inequality of humans will cause new division.
QUOTE
I am yet to be convinced that the caste system is the best way to stratify society
I do not know for certain, but one should understand that one cannot reset the what has come through complex social evolution without understanding it.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 10 2004, 11:54 AM
Conversion doesn’t take away ST status ‘ The Supreme Court has ruled that a person embracing another religion does not loose his Scheduled Tribe status if he continues to follow his customary practices. A bench comprising Chief Justice V.N. Khare, Justices S.B.Sinha and S.H. Kapadia said a court should decide wheather a person ceases to be a member of ST on the basis of his social status and customs even after his conversion to another Religion. Referring to an earlier SCF decision, the bench said a person does not generally loose his ST status under the law even if he embraces another religion. But it is said a court should examine the facts of each case before determining the question. The ruling followed an appeal by the Kerala Government, Which challenged the high court judgement quashing charges against an accused under the scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act on the grounds that the victim’s parents had lost their ST status as they converted to Christianity. The Chief judicial magistrate took cognizance against the accused under the Act and section 509 of the IPC for outraging the modesty of minor girl in 1992. The Police, after registering the FIR against the accused under the IPC, had slapped another case against him under the scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act since the victim’s parents belonged to ST.
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 10 2004, 12:21 PM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Feb 10 2004, 11:16 AM)
I don't know about other states, my father worked in backwards classe's department and said it did have marked results in last 30 yrs, with atleast some percentages of the SC getting educated and breaking thier generational lifecycle. As usual he said there is miles to go. smile.gif
I know people who benefited immensely from reservations and are now in the private sector doing well.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 03:57 PM
ST status is open to all tribes Since Untouchability is / was a specific hindu problem SC benefits were restricted to Indian Religionists When the constitution was being written, muslims and xtians who also practise some form of this, in order to attract converts by claiming to be egalitarian, asked not to be put into this
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 03:59 PM
Thanks to SC reservations there has been large scale re-conversion of Dalits in Andhra away from xtianity and back to hinduism
Posted by: nachiketa Feb 10 2004, 06:22 PM
Where can I find the actual schedule of castes and tribes and OBCs? Also, I am interested in the schedules at the state level.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 06:25 PM
The naxalism problem ---- The leaders of the naxalite movements are often upper castes However, 80% of the rank and file are SC / STs Reservations provide a way to soak up educated SC / STs who otherwise would be recruited to naxalism In the Dailypioneer newspaper, there is a Dalit correspondent Chandrabhan Prasad, who earlier flirted with naxalism, he however writes that he turned away from that path since he felt that the Indian state was non-hostile to Dalits thanks to reservations etc
Posted by: muddur Feb 10 2004, 07:01 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Feb 9 2004, 07:28 PM)
Civil war with the abrahamists is coming within 5 decades and you need every hindu on our team If we can put up with reservations for 5 decades, put up with them for another 5 decades Think of reservations as a form of financial aid to backward castes that neutralises missionary money power Take for example kerala, a 100 % literate state The backward castes are led by Natesan, who is against the creamy layer exclusion for OBC Natesan is a millionaire and has blind following among OBC Natesan sees the need for hindu unity against islam and xtianity, yet he cant give up his casteism As the economy expands and privatisation of medical and engineering colleges takes place, reservations are slowly becoming irrelevant
I get your point. You want to give the fruit and ask me to look at it as though it is money. BTW, even going by your logic, when Indians have put up with reservations for 5 decades, INDIA was a POOR nation. But not any more. We have money $$$$. Hence time to clean up the social inequalities, not to put up with for another 5 decades. Sacrifices have been made by some, with good fruits. Now time to eliminate social inequalities, based on caste, race, religion and gender. Give the poor the actual $$$ benefits, like free education / tutions, lunch for those who go to school, interest free student loans etc .... But when it comes to the final evaluations, all Indians should be treated EQUAL. You can not ask one guy to run the 100 meter sprint race from 90'th meter line, while others run the whole 100 meters. That's plain injustice.
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 10 2004, 07:08 PM
QUOTE (muddur @ Feb 11 2004, 07:31 AM)
BTW, even going by your logic, when Indians have put up with reservations for 5 decades, INDIA was a POOR nation. But not any more. We have money $$$$. Hence time to clean up the social inequalities.
Maybe a section of the "upper" castes had to put up with reservations but some did not put up with it, some deserving candidates benefited. Reservations took the sting out of missionary propaganda.
Posted by: nachiketa Feb 10 2004, 07:08 PM
QUOTE (vijnan_anand @ Feb 10 2004, 01:05 PM)
I am yet to be convinced that the caste system is the best way to stratify society
The way I see the varna system is as follows. Shudra : A person who is inert/automaton. Eat food, work and sleep. Basically one with predominating Tamas. Vaishya: Shudra who is no longer content working, eating and sleeping. Develops ambition. Starts gathering material wealth/well being for himself/herself and immediate family. Rajasic tendencies are overcoming some of the tamsic tendencies. Kshatriya: Vaishya whose ambition to gather wealth/well being is no longer restricted to immediate family, but expands to include the community/kingdom/country. Tremendous rajasic tendencies. Brahmana: Kshatriya who is done/tired with all the activities of ambition/wealth/gathering/collecting etc and looks beyond. What is beyond this collecting/gathering etc. The one with tremendous Sattvic tendencies. So the varna system is basically moving along the bell curve. But the x-axis is not mere physical or intellectual capabilites, but is a progression from tamasic to sattvic qualities at ones own pace and level of realisation. Ofcourse, the time frame for the evolution makes sense only if you axiomatically assume punarjanma or multiple rebirths. It is the idea of privilege that screws up the varna system. If the Brahmana forgets that he was a Shudra once, the problems start.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 07:15 PM
Let me go further The saviors of hinduism has to come from the backward castes The english educated forward castes are half xtian, respect jesus more than ganesha Look at the big picture, reservations re-directed 35% of the least talented of the forward castes from an upper-middle class lifestyle to a lower middle class lifestyle ( MBBS etc ) These days with private job market booming, anyone with BSC can find a job in software, BPO, Call centers, whatever
Posted by: muddur Feb 10 2004, 07:17 PM
QUOTE (vijnan_anand @ Feb 11 2004, 07:38 AM)
QUOTE (muddur @ Feb 11 2004, 07:31 AM)
BTW, even going by your logic, when Indians have put up with reservations for 5 decades, INDIA was a POOR nation. But not any more. We have money $$$$. Hence time to clean up the social inequalities.
Maybe a section of the "upper" castes had to put up with reservations but some did not put up with it, some deserving candidates benefited. Reservations took the sting out of missionary propaganda.
Maybe a section of the "upper" castes had to put up with reservations but some did not put up with it, some deserving candidates benefited. Same other way ... Some millionaires miused the reservations as well ... I have seen a poor GM student failing to pay his tution fees dropped higher educations, while the millionaire SC / ST students who enjoyed the benefits by indulging in misuse of what they got from the GOVT, got admissions for higher educations in to good colleges, flunked and moved back to their family business. Countering the missionary ??? When India was poor missionaries were attractions because they showed $$. Now time to send them back to other places. India should kick them out. We don't need them anymore. Bring in laws which make these missionaries to channelise $$ only through govt identified sponsors and limit it to an X amount for each organizations. Let the missionary money be shared between all Indian communities. Or ask them to get the hell out of India. NO VISA's for foreign religious workers, as long as the money doesn't reach the real needy, with out using the conversion or religious card.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 07:17 PM
Who does reservations actually affect these days 1. Govt job 2. MBBS other than that the coast is clear for any 'deserving' forward caste A growing economy is the best cure for this
Posted by: muddur Feb 10 2004, 07:21 PM
A growing economy is the best cure for this EXACTLY ... as the economy grows, the govt should try to reduce the injustice within the society. GOVT should stay away from the people's beliefs in the GOD and religion, while countering foreign religious propoganda with proper laws.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 07:32 PM
Muddur --- The poor Dalit identifies with a rich Dalit he feels that its his turn to loot the system Guess why Lalloo, Mulayam and Mayawati get block votes from their castemen Their castemen know they are corrupt *India is still poor over 200 million *Missionaries dont use religious visa, read the tehelka report, they come in as tourists, bribe cops *Tehelka report says that in practise the only thing that deters missionaries is Dara Singh Anyone who goes to college is already lower middle class and college fees are subsidised For really poor, visit http://www.foodrelief.org The so called poor forward caste who drops out is nowhere as poor as the people shown in foodrelief In anycase, the forward caste with IQ > 130 always gets through
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 07:43 PM
Think of the propoganda that missionaries will do if there is any attempt to remove reservations Next think of your physical safety The 68% militant backward castes will massacre the 13% non-violent brahmins and banias Think of the filip to naxalism and tribal separatist movements All this so that some 2nd tier forward caste wants to get into medical school As I said the 1st tier forward caste will always get through In these days of call centers, the 2nd tier forward caste can make a decent living in call centers, BPO, whatever I read that the actual number of jobs and seats affected by reservations is small
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 10 2004, 07:50 PM
QUOTE (muddur @ Feb 11 2004, 07:47 AM)
Same other way ... Some millionaires miused the reservations as well ...
People will exploit loopholes in any system, one can try to make it difficult for the creamy layer to exploit the sysytem, I also know of a few upper caste guys who got fake caste certificates made,no point in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Reservations are a good policy, the missionaries hate it.
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 10 2004, 07:51 PM
In any case, removal of reservations would just amount to political harakiri by ANY administration - aint gonna happen. What can be done is #1 for the person who has received the benefit give it back to the community AND #2 make the person who receives the benefit realise the cost of the benefit - use these things to build a cohesive hindu and an integrated India.
Posted by: Rajita Rajvasishth Feb 10 2004, 08:09 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Feb 11 2004, 08:02 AM)
In anycase, the forward caste with IQ > 130 always gets through
Do you know what section of the Indian population has IQ greater than 130. I can tell you that only 5-6 people had IQ above this in my class of 12th std (supposedly an elite class). Most of the educated Indian elite have IQ in the range of 118-127. So discriminating against the bulk of the elite is a dangerous aspect of your solution. Though I generally agree with the need for Hindu identity and unity- it is dangerous to have the Hindu elite leaving the country in droves.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 10 2004, 08:30 PM
Ok here goes There is a corelation between GRE scores and IQ MENSA in fact accepts GRE scores To be in MENSA, you need an IQ > 130 I did not study in an IIT In my days the cream of the crop went into Engineering and Medicine In my college, most of the GRE candidates got GRE scores around the 130 IQ mark I would expect IIT, AIMMS grads to be about 140-145 This is one of the reasons that Indian engineering grads ace the US system Those who did not get Engineering went into commerce, science etc and you could extrapolate an IQ of 115-125 2% of the Indian ( any ) population has an IQ > 130 Mean = 100, SD = 15 Bell curve As I said the elite always get in Affirmative action affects the 2nd tier To put it in crude terms In Tamil Nadu, circa 1975, a brahmin needed 95% , an OBC needed 90% SC/STs needed 75% to get Engineering So the brahmin who got screwed by quotas, got betwen 90% and 95% Still the brahmin representation was 5X the population There was an overlap too Many OBC got more than 95% too As I said, opening the economy and allowing private colleges helps fix this I feel educational talent is a question of family culture A first generation learner will have handicaps This should go away in 2-3 generations Recently I read an article in Outlook about some OBC village in the cow belt where the kids are winning seats on merit in IIT
Posted by: mitradena Feb 11 2004, 11:01 AM
G. Subramaniam, I have started a new topic "race & IQ". Can you give your opinion there? thanks, mitradena
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 11 2004, 11:42 AM
More on the OBC-Forward caste variance in Tamil Nadu As I mentioned earlier, OBC had a 90% cut off and forward castes had a 95% cut off I had also mentioned that there was some overlap even at intake in that some OBC scored as high as forward castes Then move forward 5 years By the end of the course, there was NO observable difference between OBC and forward castes Which meant that the gap had closed for OBC
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 12 2004, 06:07 PM
How Hindu Dalit reservations are unravelling xtianity As hindu society reforms, there is ample scope for reconversion from Xtianity which has internal caste problems too, despite their so called egalitarianism http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/DCLMtocbci.htm First of all we wish to emphasise that the oppression and discriminations suffered by Dalit Christians within our Church is as serious and appalling as the persecution of minorities in our country. With this perspectives we have to approach the problem of Dalits in the Church. This has to be a top priority as they are a majority in the Catholics population. Broadly speaking, we face the problems of untouchability, marginalisation in our institutions (in admissions and appointments), marginalistion in vocation, in of sharing of power and authority in the Church. Each problem needs specific attention, policy changes and action programmes. The external forms of untouchability and their practice still exist among Christians, within the Church, in the graveyard, in the festivals, in marriage alliances, etc. The most unfortunate thing is that the caste Christians, practising these inhuman acts are often supported by their own caste-priests and nuns, who even encourage them to attack Dalit Christians. That is the main reason for caste-practice continuing in the Church. Incidents in the past and also in recent years prove that in those areas and villages where large number of priests and nuns have been ordained, (few example: Thatchoor in Madras diocese, Eraiyur in Pondy diocese, Varadarajanpet in Kumbakonam diocese) the Caste-Christians are more active in oppressing Dalit Christians and resisting vigorously when they demand dignity, equality, and justice. Most of the caste priests, nuns and some in hierarchical positions use their money, authority and institutional power against Dalit Christians at the times of crisis, instead of supporting their just cause. We are saying this from many experience. The marginalisation of Dalit Christians in our Christian minority institutions (in admissions and appointment) all along the several decades has very severely affected their social and economic mobility and progress. The degree of marginalisation is alarming and appalling since Dalits are a majority in the Catholic Church, but they are only about 6% as students and employees in most institutions. Their exclusion or marginalisation in employments has caused enormous economic loss to the community over decades. If this continues how can poverty be alleviated in the community? The marginalisation in appointments is very severe in our Girls Schools and Women Colleges and needs specific attentions. It will take decades to improve this situation for Dalit Christians even if the institutions now take a policy of reservation for them and sincerely follow up. So, what is needed in a vigorous and strict implementation of reservation. is worse than in society as the minority caste-Christians enjoy the bigger share of the cake and the majority Dalit Christians get too little. So the policy of reservation is all the more needed for Dalit Christian in the church. So, the church cannot put the whole burden on the government, because she is owning institutions, properties, financial and material resources, powers and authority of secular nature for helping minorities, but from which Dalit Christian are excluded and alienated. The reservation we ask from the government is a case of constitutional equality irrespective of religion. But reservation for Dalit Catholics in the Church is necessary as there is a clear case of inequality within. Our elegant preaching for equality and liberation to the oppressed only goes to strengthen the plea for reservation to the oppressed • We appeal to the Bishops to see that the priests, nuns and authorities stop supporting their caste Christians against Dalit Christians and instead they openly oppose any practice of casteism and close down the churches and services in those places. It is not right to think that it is the responsibility of only the Dalits to oppose these. • The number of Dalit Bishops among the Indian Bishops is alarmingly negligible and it is seen as a grave injustice at the higher level itself. It is a matter of conscience for us to see now itself how many among the nearly 140 gathered here are Dalit Bishops. It is doubtful whether it will be even 6%. But the Dalit Catholics are a majority among the Catholics. So, we strongly appeal that special drive is made to see that about 85 Dalit Bishops are appointed in the next 5 to 10 years to bring equality. To enable this, some socially conscious Bishops, committed to Dalits cause may go in for voluntary retirement. • We request that Dalit priests are appointed in bishops vacancies that already exist, especially now in Tamil Nadu. (We may note here with regret that Dalit priests were not considered for the post of Auxiliary Bishops appointed recently in Tamil Nadu). We are not asking for Dalit Bishops with any narrow sense of possessiveness, but for the dignity and credibility of the Church in truly upholding equality in the caste-society. It is also hightime that a Dalit Bishop is appointed as Cardinal. A co-ordination between the CBCI, the Apostolic Nuncio to India and the Vatican can be evolved for the special drive and time-bound steps. • Similarly in the religious congregations, there has to be equitable number of superiors, provincials etc. and heads of Institutions appointed from Dalit priests and nuns. We have appealed to the CRI regarding this and we request the intervention of the CBCI for the same. • We request the CBCI to take steps to constantly follow up the congregations and institutions and see that the dalits are given priority in admissions and appointments. About 60% of the Catholics admitted to courses or appointed to various posts in our institutions have to be Dalit Catholics, which is a fair and just target. Whenever representation is made by the Dalit Christians or their movement, the Bishops can take it with the concerned heads of institutions or congregations and intervene to help. If necessary they could take up the matter with the respective world superiors or Generals to seek remedy. There has be insistence for policy formulations on these lines. We expect CBCI to come up with its own policy statements that are appropriate and adequate so that others can follow the model. • As a special case we request that considerable number of seats are reserved for Dalit Catholics in St. John's Medical College, Bangalore and any other Catholic Medical Colleges. A large number of Doctors (even second generation of doctors) have come up among the other Dalits, thanks to the reservation for them by the government. We could rarely see doctors among Dalit Catholics. Other Catholics have been fully benefiting so far from St. John's Medical College, as only Catholics are admitted. Now it is time that Dalit Catholics get more chances there. • We request that primary (or) basic education is made free for Dalit Catholics in our institutions just as the government does. CBCI may give necessary directions to all our institutions and Religious congregations. • Educational Scholarships and fee concessions for rural Dalit Catholics is very necessary to make any considerable progress. Without this their entry in the educational field, especially higher courses, will be very slow and they end up at the fringe of our institutions. Many of our institutions are well established and rich with buildings and facilities. But the Dalit Catholics cannot have access to or benefit from these without supplementary financial assistance to them. We request that in our hostels and orphanages 50% concession is given for poor Dalits. • We wish to recommend to the kind consideration of all the bishops and superiors that hereafter only technical institutes are started, keeping in mind the interest and scope of the rural Dalits. Mere academic courses may be given less priority. • Power sharing with Dalit Catholics is a crucial issue today and no reason will be accepted by them for their continued exclusion in this respect. They can no more depend on the charity, generosity or benevolent action of others. What is relevant is empowerment of Dalits which essentially means sharing power for them at all levels. The marginalisation in vocations to priesthood and religious, in the hierarchical posts of Bishops and diocesan officials/administrators, heads of institutions, in the national organisations such as NBCLC, in vital or strategic organizational positions, etc. is a matter of serious concern today. In particular, in the diocesan social service societies, organisations such as IGSSS, CARITAS India which are dealing with funds, in the management of local and foreign funds, the representation of Dalit priests, nuns and Dalit lay people is almost nil. The general complaint is that resources have not reached the Dalits proportionately. These must be quickly attended to. At least 50% representation to Dalits will be a just situation. How long can the majority Dalit Catholics remain marginalised, suffer and be at the loosing end? Why should they alone suffer forever? Power Sharing with Dalits is a vital step for long-term changes and for sustaining the change process. • Enforcing and reinforcing are important but, that is what is lacking in the matters regarding Dalit Christians. The line of communication, authority and mechanisms to enforce must be clearly known. • We request the CBCI to constitute an apex body representing CBCI and CRI officials, Dalit leaders, Dalit priests and nuns, which can take up the issues of Dalit Christians, follow up and resolve them. It can have regional bodies to deal with representation of local issues. These bodies should have mandatory power to take action or impose some sanctions wherever needed. These bodies, the line of communications, action and enforcement of decisions have to be transparent, with due representation of Dalits, so that solving problems will be possible. The whole difficulty in finding solutions and making progress is that each Bishop, diocese, congregation, institution and authority functions as separate kingdom with each one's own interpretation of Dalit Christians issues and the solutions. Our greatest frustration is running from pillar to post with no one responsible to us. So we have to make this important practical suggestion
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 12 2004, 06:11 PM
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15112001/24.htm SC/ST Commission insists on reservation in AMU Aligarh: National Commission for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (SC/ST) member, Mr Jalpatan in a meeting with the AMU authorities recently wanted to know in detail the implementation of reservation policy with regard to the appointment of teachers and employees and admission of students in the university. It may be recalled that the problem of notified SC/ST reservation is a long standing dispute between the Commission and university management. The Commission insists that the reservation policy should be implemented in the university. The stand of the university, however, is that AMU being a minority institution, there is no scope for the implementation of this policy in this university. The Vice-Chancellor, Hamid Ansari and other senior authorities apprised Mr Jalpatan about the policy being followed by the university with regard to the appointment of teachers and employees and admission of students.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 12 2004, 06:16 PM
Hindu Dalit Reservations unravel Indian Islam, the Ummah is getting frayed between the backward caste muslim masses and the Ashraf leadership http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01082001/26.htm Backward class Muslims & reservation – does end justify means? By N. Jamal Ansari, Aligarh Muslim politics is going to turn upside down, if the claims of some individuals and organizations are to be believed. In a recent statement Dr Ejaz Ali, National convener of All India Backward class Muslim Morcha declared that, ‘if the government of Uttar Pradesh concede the demand of backward class Muslims for reservation under Article 341, then we are ready to support the BJP in coming assembly elections of the Uttar Pradesh’. He further announced that nearly 64 backward castes of Muslims will come forward in support of BJP. Going beyond the limits, Dr Ali declared that, ‘the Morcha will cooperate with BJP on all the three controversial points, Article 370 & 371, Common Civil Code and Construction of Ram Temple in Ayodhya, if they consider our demand for reservations’. (Amar Ujala, June 21). Before going into merits or demerits of the proposed support, we must analyze the demand for reservation objectively not emotionally. This demand is as old as independence itself. In fact a constitutional flaw or lacuna is responsible for the plight of Muslims and Christians alike. At the time of drafting the constitution, Ambedkar was convinced by some Muslims that Indian Muslim society has no caste system although such a system was prevalent. Under Article 340, 341 and 342 Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Backward classes have rights to reservation. But constitutionally that ‘Right’ was limited to the believers of Hinduism only. This limitation itself is against the spirit of the constitution, which forbids favourism on grounds of religious affiliations. Perhaps this limitation was imposed by some ulterior motives. There was every possibility that dalits and backward classes of other religions will cross over to Hinduism for availing the fruits of reservations. In 1956 Sikhs fought for their rights and they were included with Hindus. Again in 1990 Buddhists were accommodated with Hindus and Sikhs. After 1990, the picture became more clearer. Only Muslims and Christians were left outside the reservation Umbrella. Is not this a constitutional fraud? No doubt that this outdated reservation policy should be modified by amending the constitution or scrapped totally. From 1990 to 1993, Muslim Indians were totally pre-occupied in facing the violent politics of BJP. But after 1993, the demands of backward class and dalit Muslims for fair treatment in reservation policy gained momentum. Conferences on this burning issue were organized at different places. In one such conference held at Aligarh on August, 3, 1997 under the banner of ‘All India Backward Muslim Representative Meet’, Prof Humayun Murad simply said that, ‘We strongly advocate the demand for including all backward Muslims who have not been included in the existing list of OBS’s. This was done is case of Sikhs and neo-Buddhists. There is no reason why a similar step should not be taken in case of all backward Muslims’ (TOI, 5 August 1997) I think this is the factual and normal statement straight out of heart. The demand of reservation for backward class and dalit Muslims has always been supported by the community. But there is some urgent need to re-examine the issue as whole. In response to one of my articles, ‘The logic of discrimination’ (The Pioneer, 16 January 1999) Syed Shahabuddin wrote back that, ‘even if some Muslims sub-communities which have common ancestors with Hindu Scheduled Castes and are engaged in common professions, are included, it will make negligible impact on the overall development of the Muslim Community’, (letter entitled ‘Scheduling Castes’, The Pioneer, January 25 1999) Syed Shahabuddin was right. I accept that we must take into account Muslims as one community because fragmentation of the community into Ashrafs or Ajlafs will lead us nowhere. On the other hand, this tendency will provide Sangh-Parivar opportunities to implement its plans. Dr Ejaz Ali’s statement shows that he is prepared to barter away community’s interests. The question of supporting BJP, just to get reservation is totally misguided and miscalculated. The crimes of BJP or Sangh Parivar are not such that they may be condoned. This is not the question of just reservations but of dignity, individuality, rights and identity. Philosophy of the Sangh-Parivar is a threat to Muslim culture, religion and self-respect. It must be remembered. Secondly, there will not be much government jobs left as a result of liberalization and globalization. Already BJP led central government is turning India from a social welfare state to capitalist one despite the opposition from masses. In these circumstances, the demand for reservation is nothing but only a political game. I don’t see any merit in it. On the other hand, such demands will make gulf with in Indian Muslims society which will be exploited by the Sangh Parivar. Just consider, if a riot took place, any Bajrangi will leave me, just because I belong to a backward caste of Muslims and a BJP supporter. No, Dr Ejaz Ali, he will not. Your proposed support to the BJP will be suicidal. Hence, all those who talk to support BJP should reconsider their approach in the light of ground realities. Muslim masses will not compromise on shariat or Babri Mosque. It will be appropriate that Dr Ejaz Ali go through the Bible of BJP-wall as entitled Bunch of Thoughts (By Guru Golwalkar) before considering any support to it. Conclusion Reservation will be welcomed but not by surrender of Muslim community’s interest. No doubt ends and goals are important but so are means. There is no question of supporting BJP, just for reservation.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 12 2004, 06:23 PM
Dalit muslims reconvert to get reservations http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01012001/Art21.htm Now let us think about the dangerous consequences that will emerge on account of non-inclusion of Dalit Muslims in the category of scheduled castes. Just think: Hindu sweeper is SC, whereas a Muslim sweeper is OBC.; Hindu juggler is SC (in Bihar), Muslim washer-man is OBC; Hindu ‘Paasi’ is SC, Muslim ‘Paasi’ is placed in the OBC category. There are dozens of such examples where despite similarity of social standing and profession, Muslims have not been included in this list only to deprive them of the privileges and facilities. Harmful consequences of all such policies are now cropping up. There are dozens of families of Nuts, Bhatyaras and Bhant etc in the suburban areas of East Champaran, Siwan and Vaishali districts in Bihar whose forefathers converted to Islam, but there was no perceptible difference in their way of life. But when their later generations became somewhat literate, they realized that the constitutional privileges and facilities were not available to them because of being Muslims and these could be readily available to them if they revert to their old religion. The number of such people in Bihar is increasing who are going for government jobs from the category of scheduled castes. How serious this problem is from the Muslims' point of view, can very well be imagined. The problem is how to prevent this trend of conversion?
Posted by: Sunder Feb 12 2004, 06:51 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Feb 13 2004, 06:53 AM)
Dalit muslims reconvert to get reservations
Without taking away focus from the main topic, could we henceforth refer to it as REVERTING instead of re-converting ? This rightfully takes into consideration the fact that their ancestry was indeed Sanathana Dharma. Having said that, it's quite sorry that they are reverting back with an eye on the government jobs. I would like to know if this will not be a loophole for someone to suddely "revert" to hinduism, take a government job, and then pursue his agenda of their earlier faith.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 12 2004, 07:13 PM
Islam requires strict discipline Beard, Namaz, Fasting , beef, halal, id, etc He will lose his job if he is no longer a hindu So even if this is for greed, over a few years he will be heavily de-islamised and vulnerable to hindu assimilation He will want Dalit promotions etc and all this time, islam is getting eroded Your concern are more valid in the case of xtians
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 14 2004, 04:02 PM
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=327078 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/496862.cms Dalit Christians demand equality IANS[ SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 2004 07:19:26 PM ] NEW DELHI: A Christian organisation representing Dalits or the socially underprivileged on Saturday questioned the church leadership for demanding special treatment for them and accused it of exploiting their economic and social backwardness. Stating that Dalit Christians accounted for about 70 percent of India's Christian population, the Poor Christian Liberation Movement (PCLM) accused high-caste Christians of exploiting them. The church leadership wanted to exploit the poverty and unemployment among the Dalit Christians to demand reservation of government jobs for them by getting them classified as scheduled castes, PCLM president R.L. Francis said in a statement. People belonging to the scheduled castes benefit from reservations in educational institutions and government jobs. "It is worth mentioning here that when they (Dalit Christians) were in Hindu society, they were the victims of the caste system . The foremost reason for their coming to the fold of Christianity was that there would be no discrimination and they would be treated as equals. "But despite a wide network of (Christian) missionary schools and colleges, most children of Dalit Christians have not been able to rise above the literacy level because these convent schools are busy catering to the educational needs of upper and high caste people. The neglect of Dalit Christian children by these institutions is the root cause of the problem. "The same is the case with job opportunities and entrepreneurship development. Dalit Christians are being denied all these facilities while the church leadership continues to flourish by usurping vast foreign funding and real estate resources," Francis charged. Demanding a Dalit Christian Development Board, he said that in the coming parliamentary elections, members of the community would only vote for parties which supported this.
Posted by: muddur Feb 15 2004, 11:46 AM
GS, Read this article here ... and also read the Hamid Gul's recent interviews on rediff .. While I say that the reservations have served their utilities, One should also look into the -ve sides of the caste system. People can use the social divide against Indians and divide us further. So before it is too late, we should work twards eradicating these in equalities. Now, to counter foreign missionaries, bring in the laws that prevent any religious activities within the subcontinent by foreign people. We are democracy, if agreed upon you can make it a law. Bharat-Israel alliance By Imtiaz Rafi Butt http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en54053&F_catID=&f_type=source We need tension-free Pak-Bharat relations. The partition of India was agreed on as a solution to the communal problem. The bigoted and intransigent Hindu nationalists - most of them high caste Hindus - were responsible for the division. They went so far as to repudiate the very existence of a thousand-year old Muslim civilisation. Some of them even had the temerity to say that they had jettisoned this period from their own 5000-year old history. Appalled by such a perverted psyche, the Quaid-i-Azam had no choice but to demand Pakistan to protect the rights and the culture of the Muslims. In their blind prejudice, the Hindu nationalists not only forced the division of the Subcontinent but also destroyed the tone and tenor of age-old Hindu-Muslim relations. The Quaid had visualised good neighbourly relations between India and Pakistan similar to those that existed between the United States and Canada. By seizing Kashmir, the Hindus thwarted that dream and instead sowed the seeds of hate and animosity. In 1971, they separated East Pakistan through intrigue and armed might. It was only the fear of a nuclear war that held them back from eliminating West Pakistan. Today, the same high caste nationalists straddle the BJP and toil away on their agenda under the watchful eye of LK Advani. Some years ago they forged an alliance with Israel and are since working together against Pakistan. How did this partnership come about? Mr Yehodya Haim, a former Israeli intelligence officer, was Israel's ambassador to India from 1992 to 2001. He was well versed in Arabic and Islam. It was he who placed Indo-Israel relations and their anti-Pakistan alliance on a firm footing. In the year 2000, Advani paid a visit to Israel where a decision was taken on the target to be achieved. Advani's delegation comprised the following: Shyamil Datta, Director, Central Intelligence Bureau; RK Raghvan, Director, Central Bureau of Investigation; EM Ram Mohan, Chief, Border Security Force; K Pandey, the powerful Home Secretary, who not only coordinated the work of RAW and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs but also that of RAW agents working covertly in Indian embassies. The delegation also included a very senior officer from the Indian military intelligence. These members held extensive discussions with Israel's high-ups and finalised the programme after consultations with Israel's Home Ministry, intelligence agencies and the notorious Mossad and Sabak. The secret details of the said programme which came to light through various sources are given below. Mr Advani set up joint Indo-Israeli espionage cells in Indian embassies in Pakistan and some other key Muslim countries. He allowed Israel complete freedom to establish a vast spy network in India to bridle Islamic fundamentalists and Kashmiri freedom fighters. Advani's most crucial meeting was with the chiefs of the secret service agencies, which was chaired by Yahuda Wilk, the chief of secret police. It was decided that the two countries would work in tandem to counter the dangers facing them. (Israel, by the way, considers Pakistan a strategic threat because of the latter's nuclear and missile capability). In the 14 June meeting Yahuda Wilk assured Advani that Israel would offer sizable support to India in Jammu and Kashmir. India submitted a long list of sophisticated modern instruments it required to combat "terrorism" in Kashmir. The decision to provide Phalcon radars to India was part of that long-term deal. Israel requested access to the reports supplied by RAW agents posted in Indian embassies in Pakistan, Libya and Iran. Bharat accordingly granted them access to the Central Intelligence Processing Unit (CIPU) in New Delhi. The recent actions against Libya and Iran were taken in the light of these reports. Israeli experts came to India soon after Advani's visit. They briefed the Indians at the 15 Corps headquarters in Srinagar on the Fencing Project. The said project is being currently implemented. These military experts surveyed the LoC and photographed the Pakistan areas. A large Israeli cell was established soon after at 15 Corps headquarters in Srinagar and is fully operational. It is, therefore, clear as day that the BJP and Israel are hand-in-glove against Pakistan and other key Muslim states. This partnership has since made considerable headway. The thaw in Indo-Pakistan relations and the friendly process initiated by Prime Minister Vajpayee's visit should certainly be carried forward. Some solution or the other must be found to the Kashmir problem to alleviate the sufferings of the Kashmiris and also bring some benefit to Pakistan. But a Kashmir solution would not lead to friendship between India and Pakistan. A resolution of the Kashmir problem, though unlikely, may reduce the dangers of war but would not eliminate them. It may lower the level of tension but would not remove it. The main cause of Pak-Bharat hostility is not Kashmir but the partition of India. The high-caste Hindus, the 'hawks', have had a major say in Indian affairs since day one. It is they who are responsible for creating the Kashmir problem and also obstructing a solution. This powerful lobby wants to undo partition and implement its agenda of Akhand Bharat. It wants to convert the Indian Ocean into a Bharati lake and become the biggest power in Asia. It were these grandiose dreams that led to the rift between India and China and to the friendship between China and Pakistan. It is primarily to check India's ambitions in Asia that China has extended generous military, nuclear, economic, political and diplomatic support to Pakistan for the last forty years. China wants a resolution of the Kashmir issue. As far as Pak-Bharat friendship is concerned it cannot come about without the mutual consent of China and Pakistan. China, not the United States, is the chief determinant in this respect. The rulers of Bharat are so puerile as to think that they could compete with China. The Soviet Union had also extended unlimited aid to Bharat for forty years. The fact, however, is that the defence budget of China alone almost equals the total national budget of Bharat. Otherwise, too, China has now emerged as the Crown Prince of global economy. If Bharat persists in its present policy it too would meet the same fate, as did the Soviet Union in its contest with the United States. As for Israel, it has embarked on a highly myopic policy in its infatuation for India. It should ponder the point that by displeasing Pakistan it cannot please China, the up and coming superpower. Our rulers should defeat the alliance between Bharat and Israel. But they can do so only if they make enormous strides in economics, science, engineering and technology.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 15 2004, 04:18 PM
GS, Read this article here ... and also read the Hamid Gul's recent interviews on rediff .. While I say that the reservations have served their utilities, One should also look into the -ve sides of the caste system. People can use the social divide against Indians and divide us further. So before it is too late, we should work twards eradicating these in equalities. Now, to counter foreign missionaries, bring in the laws that prevent any religious activities within the subcontinent by foreign people. We are democracy, if agreed upon you can make it a law. ---- Sangh parivar is doing casteism eradication In the meantime, reservations hold the missionary at bay It also improves the lot of backward castes who still probably need 5 decades more Take a look at rural India For Foreign missionaries, laws dont work In India, laws are flouted anyways The only way to stop a missionary is if a hindu assaults a family member who becomes an apostate Muslims do this and this is very effective China has anti-missionary laws, but in the last 10 years, 100 million chinese have converted Most Xtian missionaries are Indian, the money comes in hawala route from abroad If reservations are removed, ISI will have ready made recruits among Dalits
Posted by: rhytha Feb 22 2004, 10:14 AM
Genetic Study Confirm Origin of Hindu Caste System Latest genetic research supports the anthropological and historical theory that the Hindu caste system and the link between the Europeans invasion from west. Those born into higher castes in India may be more related to Europeans, while lower castes may be more similar to Asians, the research finds. The original Hindu caste system is said to have started when Indo-European nomadic groups called Aryans invaded India about 5000 years ago. They set themselves as priests and then divided the society they encountered into a four-part caste system -- Brahmans (priests and teachers), Kshatriyas (rulers and warriors), Vaisyas (merchants and traders) and Sudras (workers and peasants) who were born to serve the other three. There also are castes within castes; in all, there are more than 1,000. Lowest in the social order are the Harijans or Untouchables. They did all the dirty work. Researchers from the United States, the United Kingdom, and India studied the linkage between the Europeans and high caste in India by DNA. "We've been working in India, asking questions about the origins of the caste system and tribal populations," says Dr. Michael Bamshad, an assistant professor at the University of Utah's Eccles Institute of Human Genetics in Salt Lake City. "We were also interested in the effects of social forces on biological variations." Bamshad and his colleagues conducted their research by drawing blood from eight different populations in the lower, middle and upper castes. They compared five different types of genetic data, Bamshad says. "Two of those types are inherited only from your mother -- called mitochondrial data -- and two of those types are from the Y chromosome, so they come only from the father." The researchers compared the data to about "750 Africans, Asians and Europeans and then compared the affinities of the castes of different ranks with those continental groups," Bamshad says. The genetic data from the mother shows "some evidence of European markers," Bamshad reports. The higher the caste, the "higher the frequency of those European markers," he says. But genes passed on from the father show a more striking pattern. "When we looked at father markers, we see that the castes are more similar to Europeans than Asians, again with the upper classes being closer to Europeans than the lower classes," Bamshad says. Though discrimination against the ancient caste system was declared illegal by bothe Nepalese and Indian government, it still continues as part of day to day life in both countries. The findings, which appear in the May issue of Genome Research, support the historical data showing that India was in part populated by people from Turkey, the Middle East, the Caucasus or Eastern Europe, Bamshad says. "And it also suggests that those who migrated from Europe often left their descendents in the higher castes rather than the lower castes," Bamshad says. "The evidence from the Y chromosomes shows that it was the men who married into the upper castes, and it appears that more men than women moved into India, and that certainly is consistent with the concept of a marauding army." Bamshad's research falls under the rubric of molecular anthropology, says Peter Underhill, senior research scientist in genetics at Stanford University. "The main thrust of this research project is to better understand the Indian population, where it came from, how it developed." "This research, which attempts to correlate genetics with the historical record, provides good genetic evidence, and such correlations are reassuring," Underhill says. "What's particularly nice about this paper is that it doesn't emphasize one slice of the genome. It weaves in genetics from both men and women." While Bamshad's research has no direct relevance, "it would be of some interest to medical genetic studies. It's another piece of the puzzle that might help scientists understand certain traits within the Indian population," Underhill says. http://www.pravidhik.com/news/nw/n0001.htm
Posted by: rhytha Feb 22 2004, 10:16 AM
Indian Caste Origins: Genomic Insights and Future Outlook Partha P. Majumder Anthropology and Human Genetics Unit, Indian Statistical Institute, Calcutta 700035, India http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/6/931 The main feature of Indian society, seen at its strongest in the rural areas, is caste. A caste is a collection of people who share similar cultural and religious values and practices. Members within a caste generally marry among themselves; intercaste marriages are a cultural taboo. These social regulations governing the institution of marriage have resulted in a substructuring of the Indian gene pool. There are also elaborate social regulations of avoidance of marriages within castes, and thus there is genomic substructuring even within a caste. The origins of the castes in India remain an enigma. Many castes are known to have tribal origins, as evidenced from various totemic features that manifest themselves in these caste groups (Kosambi 1964). The caste system in northern India may have developed as a class structure from within tribes: As agriculture spread from the Indus River valley to the Gangetic basin, knowledge and ownership of the means of food production may have created hierarchical divisions within tribal societies (Kosambi 1964). Karve (1961) has also argued that "something very like castes were in India" even before Aryan speakers entered India. The Aryan world comprised three classes (varnas): priests, nobles, and commoners. Aryans as the conquering people possibly placed their three classes on the indigenous Indian society. The varna organization is hierarchical. Initially, the system had names for two ranks, Brahma (Brahmin) and Kshatra (Kshatriya), Brahmin being of a socially higher rank than Kshatriya. The third rank was made up of Vis, that is, all the subjects. To this society, a fourth rank was added: Shudra, who had no rights to Aryan ritual. In southern India, the menial workers, the so-called "untouchables", were placed in a new varna, Panchama (meaning fifth). It is conceivable that the Aryan speakers had greater contact, including genetic admixture, with the Brahmins, who were professionally the torchbearers and promoters of Aryan rituals. The Aryan contact should have been progressively less as one descended the varna ladder. The genetic expectation, therefore, is that the proportions of those genes (or genomic features, such as haplotypes or haplogroups) that "characterized" the Aryan speakers should progressively decline from the highest varna to the lowest and a reverse trend should be observed with respect to those genes that "characterized" the indigenous Indians. Although some previous studies have sought to test this expectation, the observed trends were equivocal. The primary reason was the lack of data on a large uniform set of markers from populations of India and central/west Asia (the region from which the Aryans speakers who entered India originated). The study by Bamshad et al. (2001), who have also sought to test the above expectation, is clearly a landmark. Using a very large battery of genomic markers and DNA sequences, spanning autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosomal genomic regions, they have shown that the observed trend of genetic admixture estimated from castes belonging to different varnas is congruent with expectations. This trend was observed in each of the three data subsets. The only exception was in respect of mtDNA restriction site haplotypes, which was also noted in a recent study conducted by us (Roychoudhury et al. 2000). However, after combining these haplotype data with DNA sequence data, Bamshad and colleagues were able to capture the expected trend. Thus, this study not only provides a wonderful genomic view of the castes and of their origins, but also underscores the need for careful statistical analysis of genomic data for drawing appropriate inferences. The use of "upper", "middle", and "lower" to designate caste hierarchy is much more recent than the use of varna. Whereas varnas are traditionally defined, different anthropologists have used different definitions of upper, middle, and lower castes, in terms of the castes that they included in each of these clusters. Sometimes these differences in definitions have stemmed from socio-cultural similarities or differences as noted or perceived by different anthropologists, and sometimes ranked caste-cluster compositions were altered for convenience, such as pooling to adjust for small sample sizes. As noted earlier, in studies such as Bamshad et al.'s, the most appropriate classification is by varna. As the reader will note, the authors have analyzed their data using different compositions of hierarchical caste-clusters and have obtained homologous results. However, it needs to be emphasized that traditional varna system is the only unequivocally accepted hierarchical system. In studies pertaining to the origins of castes, one is liable to draw incorrect inferences by including castes belonging to different varnas in the same ranked cluster. Bamshad et al. have chosen to study caste populations drawn from a restricted geographical region of India. They have rightly emphasized the need to replicate their findings. This is absolutely essential because, as Karve (1961) has noted, "it is not generally realized that the caste society in a sense was a very elastic society." Indeed, a caste bearing the same name may have very different origins in different geographical regions. There are examples in which a tribe dispersed over a large geographical region, took up different occupations in different sub-regions, and "fitted" itself into the caste hierarchy on different rungs. Karve's work has also indicated that each of the different Brahmin castes (Chitpavan, Sarasvat, etc.) in Maharashtra probably has a different origin. Thus, the origin of caste populations may not be uniform over the entire India geographical space, and it is crucial to undertake studies to replicate Bamshad et al.'s findings. Finally, I would also like to suggest that in future studies bearing on the origins of the Indian castes, it would be a good idea to include tribal populations inhabiting the same region along with the caste populations. http://www.genome.org/cgi/reprint/11/6/994.pdf
Posted by: vijnan_anand Feb 23 2004, 02:36 AM
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/articles_aryan_invasion_theory/35.htm
QUOTE
Caste and Science: Hot Air and Cold Fusion N.S. Rajaram http://www.organiser.org/10june2001/news5.htm In an article titled "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations", eighteen authors, mainly from Utah in the US and Vishakapatnam in India, led by Michael Bamshad of the Department of Pediatrics from the University of Utah make the claim that there were several waves of immigration into India, the last of which (from Europe) was responsible for the caste system. In their words: "In the most recent of these waves (of immigration), Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently, they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves in castes of higher rank." In his press statements, Bamshad has gone much further claiming: "We are able to demonstrate unequivocally that the upper castes are more similar to Europeans than lower castes..." This finding, they claim, is based on genetics. To a scientifically informed person knowledgeable about the field, it is apparent even at first glance that it is the Aryan invasion theory all over again along with its associated Aryan-Dravidian conflicts. This is now presented as the product of 'genetics research', protected from scrutiny by opaque jargon-filled language. Genetics of course cannot tell if some people living thousands of years ago were Aryan speaking or 'Dravidic-speakers'. What Bamshad & Co are presenting is simply their presumption that they are trying to pass off as 'scientific findings' using some samples-all from near Vishakapatnam-and some numerical measures that they claim indicates the nearness of Indian population groups to the people of Europe. Their specific claim is that the upper caste Hindus are genetically closer to Europeans whereas the lower and middle castes are Asiatics. All this of course is part of the Marxist claim- that 'class' became 'caste' in India, imposed by the Aryan invaders. And now all this is 'proved' by the magic of science! So at one stroke, this Utah pediatrician and his Dravidian colleagues, aided by samples from Vishakapatnam, have shown that both the Colonial-imposed Aryan invasion-part of the "White Man's Burden" but now adopted by Indian Marxists-and the Class-to-Caste transition propounded by Indian Marxists (and Dravidian politicians) are supported by genetics! But the sheen was off the claim almost immediately after it was made. The same week, Bryan Sykes, a professor of genetics at Oxford University, made exactly the opposite claim: The British White population carries African and Asian genes. (The same must hold for other European populations.) But unlike the Utah researchers, he made no claims about their relationship to upper and lower class Britishers and their ancestry. So what does all this mean? It means that over tens of thousands of years, human populations have moved over large areas, and it is impossible to reduce it to simplistic models favoured by invasionists (successors to the "White Man's Burden") and Marxists. Further, it is misleading to use terms like "European" and "West Eurasian" to people so long ago, when they may not yet have moved into Europe or Eurasia from their original home in Africa-or even possibly India as Indian records indicate. (So Europeans could be carrying Indian traces rather than vice versa.) There is also a fundamental scientific fallacy in the Utah study. Caste and language-like religion-is a man-made classification, not a law of nature. It is absurd to assign laws of nature to them, although Marxists believe that their classification is also a scientific law of history. Actually, Sir Julian Huxley warned against it long ago: "In 1848 the young German scholar Friedrich Max Muller (1823-1900) settled in Oxford. ...About 1853, he introduced into English usage the unlucky term Aryan as applied to a large group of languages. ...Moreover, Max Muller threw another apple of discord. He introduced a proposition that is demonstrably false. He spoke not only of a definite Aryan language and its descendants, but also of a corresponding 'Aryan race'. The idea was rapidly taken up both in Germany and in England." Now, thanks to Bamshad & Co, this discredited notion as well as the Marxist Class-to-Caste Law has become scientific! If their theory (based on a sample from Vishakapatnam) has any validity at all, then Brahmins and Kshatriyas all over India must have some common physical features indicating their European ancestry. But they do not. For example, Brahmins and Kshatriyas in Kerala look like Keralites, those from Assam look like Assamese and those from Kashmir look like Kashmiris. This diversity goes to show that the Indian population is ancient, having lived in the same region long enough to have adopted to the environment by natural selection. What they have in common are certain cultural traits modified by regional factors like language, dress and food. These are acquired characteristics that have nothing to do with genetics. These Utah researchers should perhaps next apply their methodology to Christians. They can then discover Catholic genes and Protestant genes. And among Protestants they may further find Anglican genes, Lutheran genes, Methodist genes, Baptist genes-all the way down to Mormon genes in the Mormon capital of Salt Lake City, Utah. Their methodology is the kind of numerology that can be used to prove anything anywhere. In plain English, their science is just so much hot air. Academic prestige: image and reality At the heart of this approach is a belief that academic prestige can overcome unsound scholarship. The goal of some of these academics, especially in the West, is not so much to make or present true scientific discoveries, but use the prestige that goes with their position to bluff and bulldoze Indians, in the hope no one will dare question them. This was also the thinking behind a recent propaganda campaign launched by a couple of 'Indologists' that tried to bluff their way with assertions like "no horse at Harappa, and any evidence to the contrary must be faked". To some extent, their faith in the servility of the Indian intelligentsia is justified: Indian journalists in particular rarely question any statement by a Western scholar. They believe that anything coming from the West must be true, and it is not for any Indian to question it. As a former US academic I have the unhappy duty to shatter this illusion: the University of Utah and many others in the US are by no means distinguished for research excellence. Some may recall that more than ten years ago a couple of electro-chemists from the University of Utah (Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman) claimed that they had created 'Cold Fusion' in a bottle. This amounted to the claim that they could create and control an unlimited energy source like a hydrogen bomb in a bottle, which would eventually solve the world's energy problems. It has not turned out that way. California is having daily blackouts. The work reported by Michael Bamshad and his colleagues-also from the University of Utah of Cold Fusion fame-falls in the same category. The message of all this is that any claim should be subjected to critical scrutiny and not accepted simply because it happens to come from a person and/or institution that enjoys prestige. To take an example from the other extreme, the mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujam was working as a clerk in the Madras Port Trust when he made some of the greatest discoveries in modern mathematics. And Albert Einstein was himself a "clerk, third class" at the Swiss Patent Office in Bern when he discovered the Special Theory of Relativity. Yielding to prestige is the response of an illiterate. Institutional problems What is happening in academia for such extravagant claims that fail to stand scientific scrutiny to be becoming increasingly more frequent? One might almost say, the less substantial the research, the more extravagant the claim made for it. It is a complex issue, but may be summarized as deriving from polarization of academic life in the US. There is a severe shortage of technically qualified people. As a result, US is forced to import scientists and engineers in large numbers. Soon, teachers will be in short supply. This shows that American universities, especially research universities, are just not graduating enough scientists and engineers-or even science teachers. The feeling is widespread in America-among the public as well as in official circles-that universities are neglecting the educational needs of the country in the name of research. This has reduced the flow of money into universities, forcing them increasingly to seek funding from outside for their research: all they have to sell is their 'research', not their usefulness to society or meeting its educational needs. The demand for such funds is always greater than the supply. As a result, these researchers have also to be salesmen. This has resulted in an explosion of journals and other publications, recently supplemented by electronic journals (websites). To be heard in this cacophony of claims and demands, one is forced to make more and more extravagant claims. Quality becomes secondary and quantity becomes all-important. This is called "publish or perish", it is not entirely new, but now it has assumed unmanageable proportions. In such an environment, survival takes precedence over concern for quality or even truth. So almost anything is published as long as it adds to the researcher's bio-data. This is what is behind publications like the one authored by Bamshad & Co. In the final analysis, what we are witnessing is a struggle for survival by a disenfranchised academic priesthood that will resort to any means to ensure its survival. And this includes hot air and Cold Fusion. Writing as far back as 1939, Sir Julian Huxley, one of the great natural scientists of the century, observed: "In England and America the phrase 'Aryan race' has quite ceased to be used by writers with scientific knowledge, though it appears occasionally in political and propagandist literature. In Germany, the idea of the 'Aryan' race received no more scientific support than in England. Nevertheless, it found able and very persistent literary advocates who made it appear very flattering to local vanity. It therefore steadily spread, fostered by special conditions." (1887-1975), British biologist and author, who achieved renown both as a scientist and for his ability to make scientific concepts clear to the public through his writings. He served as the first director-general of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). Huxley was knighted in 1958.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Feb 24 2004, 04:26 PM
EPW is a leftist weekly This is issue dated 2/14/2004 1999, NFHS-2 data What this shows is that the most poor are SC / STs Abject Deprivation by caste ----- SC = 5.2% ST = 4.6 % Others = 1.7% Abject Deprivation by religion ----- Muslims = 3.5% Hindus = 2.9% Others = 2% Moderate Deprivation by Caste --------------- SC = 28.6% ST = 32.2% Others = 14.3% Moderate Deprivation by Religion --------------- Muslims = 19.4% Hindus = 20.1% Other = 15.8%
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 25 2004, 12:05 AM
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=327775 http://www.deccan.com/Nation/NationalNews.asp#Goswami%20died%20jobless New Delhi, Feb. 24: Rajiv Goswami, who grabbed the headlines when he attempted self-immolation protesting the Mandal Commission’s recommendations in 1990, died here on Tuesday after a prolonged illness at the age of 33. Goswami, survived by his wife and two children, died at a private hospital He was suffering from liver problem and was hospitalised since February 13, they said. Doctors attributed his death to failure of his liver and kidneys, the family members said. Goswami had attempted self-immolation outside his South Delhi College in October 1990 to protest job reservations for backwards as recommended by the Mandal Commission. His action sparked a series of self-immolation by college students and led to a formidable movement against the reservation. Goswami was virtually jobless since the agitation and was sustained by his parents
Posted by: Kaushal Feb 25 2004, 06:16 AM
One person can accomplish a lot even in a large country like India, when he has the courage of his convictions. Two wrongs do not make a right and reservation and quotas are not the answer.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 25 2004, 10:04 AM
QUOTE
New Delhi, Feb. 24: Rajiv Goswami, who grabbed the headlines when he attempted self-immolation protesting the Mandal Commission’s recommendations in 1990, died here on Tuesday after a prolonged illness at the age of 33.
Very sad. I can still recall that day when he attempted self-immolation near Kalkaji and Nehru Place corner. Everyone were just in shock. Its sad day.
Posted by: rajesh_g Feb 25 2004, 05:13 PM
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=327846 http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20040220&fname=shankaracharya&sid=1 Slumming It Out The Kanchi Shankaracharya, last heard questioning the Dalai Lama's credentials to mediate in the Ayodhya dispute, now has the political circles abuzz with his peregrinations in the slums of Chennai. Tamil Nadu's top Dalit leaders are already lining up to negotiate tickets for the elections. S. ANAND Time was when Dalits in this country fought battles for temple-entry. Today, Jayendra Saraswati, the head of Kanchipuram Shankara math, is staging temple-entries of a different kind. In the past few weeks he has walked into the Dalit-dominated slums of Chennai and offered puja in temples run by Dalit priests. If his zeal for the construction of a Ram temple in Ayodhya made him travel far from the silk town and hold talks with mullahs, today Jayendra Saraswati is walking the slums of Chennai -- a world far removed from the material and spiritual universe that the Shankaracharyas usually inhabit. And at a time when Tamil Nadu's top Dalit leaders are meeting him to negotiate tickets for the forthcoming elections, the Kanchi Shankaracharya's interest in Dalit issues assumes political significance. On February 8, he launched the 'Ambedkar Makkal Sabhai' (Ambedkar People's Forum), an outfit of some 20-odd fringe Dalit community leaders who look up to Jayendra Saraswati as their liberator. One such Dalit bhakt of Shankaracharya is P. Viswanathan Kakkan, brother of the late Congress leader P.M. Kakkan, Tamil Nadu's only Dalit to serve as home minister during Kamaraj's chief ministership. Viswanathan was in fact instrumental in getting Jayendra Saraswati to offer worship at the Veerakali Amman temple in Thumbaipatti near Melur in Madurai district in November 2002. The temple in Kakkan's birthplace is served by a Dalit priest. Says Viswanathan, lawyer at the Madras high court: "We welcome the Shankaracharya as a welfare officer who represents our problems in the echelons of power. He has good contacts with the power-that-be, both at the central and governments. He uses his power to solve the basic problems of Dalits." It is this belief in Jayendra Saraswati's ability to get things done that reportedly brought Tamil Nadu's most prominent Dalit leader K. Krishnaswamy, president of Puthiya Tamizhagam (PT), to his doorsteps. Sources in the Kanchi math confirmed that Krishnaswamy had met with the pontiff. Ironically, in December 2002, the PT leader had sent a lawyer's notice to Jayendra Saraswati demanding that he apologise for having allegedly asked the Dalits "to take bath before entering the temples". In fact, a judicial magistrate had issued summons to Jayendra Saraswati in March 2003 acting on a petition filed by the circle secretary of the Puthiya Tamizhagam under the Protection of Civil Rights Act. Such a Dalit leader is today warming up to the Shankaracharya. Says Punitha Pandian, editor of the magazine Dalit Murasu: "Jayendra Saraswati wields tremendous clout with both the BJP and AIADMK. He is unabashedly playing the role of a political broker and the saddest part is Dalit leaders are queuing up for his darshan hoping that he can facilitate an MP seat or even ministership." Pandian thinks these visits to slums will not have a serious impact, but is more concerned about the role Jayendra is assigning himself this election season. Ravikumar, activist-theoretician of the Dalit movement, is not too perturbed by Jayendra Saraswati slumming it out: "If he is coming out of the cocooned existence of his math and visiting slums, these trips may give him an opportunity to humanise himself. He certainly is no well-wisher of Dalits, but in a land where both the Dravidian parties and the Congress have rejected any truck with the Dalit political outfits, his role may indirectly offer some breathing space for Dalits. Jayendra Saraswati may treat Dalits as untouchable, but for Dalits he is not an untouchable." Ilavazhagan, a slum-dweller in Chennai, confirms this perception: "Let the Shankaracharya smell our gutters. Let him know our reality." Jayendra Saraswati has visited about 12 slums since February 1. Outlookindia.com followed him during his visits to the Nehru Nagar slum in Vyasarpadi and the Aseervadhapuram slum in Broadway. In Aseervadhapuram, he first headed towards the Karumariamman-Munseeswaran temple and offered flowers to the deity. He then sat on a stage and addressed the small gathering of mostly women and a few old men. His message: "Though belonging to different communities, we must live together like Rama and Lakshmana, and must not fight like Vaali-Sugreeva. Nor should you be like Ravana or Kumbhakarna. There are no Ravanas amongst us now, but there are several Kumbhakarnas who just eat, drink and sleep. You must arise and be like Vibhishana. You must keep your surroundings clean and bathe before you visit the temple." A similar message is delivered in every slum. But his gratuitous advice irks young, thinking Dalits. Asks Martin Johnson of Aseervadhapuram, "Is he a health inspector? Why does he ask us to be clean and have baths? Will he offer such advice when he addresses the Brahmins in Mylapore? Why does he presume we are all dirty?" Such anger comes only with comprehension. However, most Dalits do not comprehend the mythic references that the pontiff's speech is filled with. "Who are Vaali and Sugreeva? Who is Vibhishana," asks a group of women. In the Nehru Nagar slum, Simhakural Gurusamy, the Dalit priest at the Karumari temple is happy that Jayendra Saraswati has consecrated their temple, but is unhappy that he wanted them to refer to the deity not as 'Karumari' but using the Sanskritic 'Parasakti'. Though the slum-dwellers are happy that for the first time a prominent Hindu religious leader visited their slum, they are watchful of Jayendra Saraswati's body language. Says K. Ranjendran: "An old man with folded hands went towards the Swami. But he was pushed away and this hurt the feelings of several believers. Till now, only pastors visited our slums. The Shankaracharya's visit was good and necessary, but he must mingle with us more freely and not treat us indifferently." Some are content to look at the material benefits that accrue. "The potholes on our street have been filled," says one. "If he had not visited, would Outlookindia.com have come and written about our slum," asks another. But priest Gurusamy is bothered by a spiritual question: "Why did these Shankaracharyas not visit us earlier? Why did they not accept us one thousand years ago? Then some of us would not have gone to other religions." Conversion is indeed a crucial issue for the Kanchi math head. It was only after the Tamil Nadu government passed the Prohibition of Forcible Conversions Act in October 2002 that he began campaigning among Dalits starting with prayers to Kakkan's village deity. Asked if Shankaracharya's activism in Dalit localities is a challenge to the caste system, N. Narayanan of the Tamil Nadu Brahmins Association (Tambras) says: "The Swami's moves are not in that direction. There's no need to eradicate caste. Casteless society is nonsense and Shankaracharya is not for varna-samkhara (intermixture of castes). His only plea is for harmony among all castes. If there's no caste, we'll become a chaotic society like America." Era Sezhiyan, former MP and founder-member of DMK in 1949, has other concerns: "What is bothersome is not his visiting slums. Just as we do not want politicians to invoke religion, religious leaders should also not dabble with politics. Jayendra Saraswati recently inaugurated the BJP's election office in Chennai and virtually launched their campaign. He should keep off politics." Sezhiyan, who spoke at a meeting organized to criticise Jayendra Saraswati's political activism, also seeks to score a philosophical point: "Adi Shankara believed in advaita and the Kanchi pontiff must technically belong to this school of thought. In the monistic worldview, the entire world is maya, unreal, and atman is the only reality. According to Shankara, there's no need to pray in temples since the Brahman dwells in every individual. Then why is this Shankaracharya keen on temples and consecrations, in slums or other places?" Looks like from Ayodhya to Dalits, Jayendra Saraswati has been succumbing to the materialistic pulls of dualism (dvaita) rather than engage with the abstract monism (advaita) that Sezhiyan points to.
Posted by: Viren Mar 22 2004, 04:07 PM
A little desparate aren't we biggrin.gif http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/575804.cms
QUOTE
Anxious to win back the support of Muslims, tribals, and dalits who once formed the core of the Congress’ electoral base, the party has promised reservation for Dalits in the private sector and seperate quota for socially and educationally backward Muslims
I wonder why it's not extended to sikhs, christians, parsis, jews too? thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
Posted by: Mudy Mar 22 2004, 05:07 PM
They should also declare 100% quota to Cong workers in Parliament and leftover in Private sector especially in IT industries. They should make complusory for all private company board must contain atleast one Cong-I worker or their family member with criminal record. Yes, by this we will be developed by 4000 AD. Jai Hind.
Posted by: muddur Mar 22 2004, 06:00 PM
Yes, by this we will be developed by 4000 AD. That's exactly what the Indian enemies wants, hence the Italian mole into our parliament. sad.gif
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Mar 24 2004, 05:54 AM
Quotas in the US http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12702 UC Discriminates Against Asians By John Moores Forbes | March 24, 2004 When Governor Gray Davis appointed me to the Board of Regents of the University of California in 1999, I recognized the university's responsibility to extend the opportunity for academic achievement to as many capable students as the resources of the nation's premier public university allow. Sadly, today's UC admissions policies are victimizing students--not just those unfairly denied admission but also many with low college entrance exam scores who were admitted and can't compete. The California electorate voted to stop racial preference in college admission in 1996. Since then UC administrators have been manipulating the admissions system and, I believe, thwarting the law. (Although I have been the board's chairman since 2002, I'm just one vote.) UC, Berkeley, the top school in the UC system, is admitting "underrepresented minorities" with very low SAT scores while rejecting many applicants with high SAT scores. Prompted by many complaints from parents whose high-scoring children were rejected by Berkeley, I started probing admissions records. I learned that 359 students with combined SAT scores of 1,000 or less were admitted to Berkeley in 2002, accounting for 3% of the 10,905 students admitted that year. (The national SAT average is about 1,000.) Of those 359 students, 231 were from underrepresented minorities--meaning blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans. Only 19 of the low scorers were white. Some 1,421 Californians with SAT scores above 1,400 applying to the same departments at Berkeley were not admitted. Of those, 662 were Asian-American, while 62 were from the underrepresented minorities. How did the university get away with discriminating so blatantly against Asians? Through an admissions policy with the vague term "comprehensive review." The policy includes factors like disabilities, low family income, first generation to attend college, need to work, disadvantaged social or educational environment, difficult personal and family situations. This means that a student from a poor background whose parents didn't go to college is given preference over a kid raised by middle-class, educated parents--all other things being equal. Nobody believes that the SAT is a perfect predictor of academic success, but it's silly to pretend that very low scoring applicants should be admitted to one of America's premier universities with the expectation that somehow these students will learn material that they missed in K-12. Needless to say, there is no hard weighting system at Berkeley for any of the fuzzy factors mentioned above. The result is an admissions system that is impossible to audit and that offers a cover for university administrators who don't want the media hounding them over declining minority enrollment. The university is saying it is tilting the balance in favor of disadvantaged students as opposed to merely engaging in racial discrimination. Whatever the truth of that assertion, any good that comes from giving disadvantaged kids a leg up is undone if the tilting goes too far. It goes too far when kids who struggled with eighth-grade math have to compete with kids who aced advanced-placement calculus. Another disappointment is the many "outreach" programs that were funded post-1996 to create more diversity at the university. As I see it, hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on encouraging poor, often minority, high school students to apply to UC even if they have very low SAT scores. But the outreach programs have had perverse consequences. The victims are the kids who should have gone to one of California's outstanding community colleges, where they might have had the possibility of success and a chance to grow intellectually. California's public higher education is the best in the world. UC should ensure that its policies are consistent with its well-deserved reputation. The university's admission process should be legal and fair, and the criteria for admission should be transparent to the public. Students should understand that the path into UC is pretty straightforward: Work hard, take demanding courses and demonstrate academic success.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST May 12 2004, 03:36 PM
Hello Gurus, what do you think about the Muslim demand for inclusion in the backward class? I am seriously thinking in favor of it. (you know that I am not a liberal pinko idiot). In fact, I think it would be a great idea to include many more groups into the BC pool as long as we keep the reservation percentage to a reasonable level - say 50-60 %. What do you think of this?
Posted by: Viren May 12 2004, 03:46 PM
Can state give special BC status to one community over another? I thought all reservation related rules applied at national level.
Posted by: rajesh_g May 12 2004, 03:56 PM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ May 13 2004, 04:06 AM)
Hello Gurus, what do you think about the Muslim demand for inclusion in the backward class? I am seriously thinking in favor of it. (you know that I am not a liberal pinko idiot). In fact, I think it would be a great idea to include many more groups into the BC pool as long as we keep the reservation percentage to a reasonable level - say 50-60 %. What do you think of this?
Why are you in favor of this ?
Posted by: Mudy May 12 2004, 03:56 PM
Abhijit_ST, Not a bad idea, 80% of India is backward class mentally anyway. Those who call for secularism, anti casteism are first to promote excellent ideas to divide country and continue old system. They don't want progress. There is another thread on reservation, we can continue there.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST May 12 2004, 04:10 PM
Hi Rajesh, Continuing the discussion on reservations based on my post in the Poll thread. I haven't read the reservation thread - so i will do it and post my thoughts on any interesting aspect. Now about why I think I am in favor of including the Muslims in the reservations pool - As long as you keep the % reservations same (which is already pretty high at over 50 %), the more number of participants in the reservations pool, the better the quality of those who actually get benefits. Think of it this way. In the 70's the admissions to Govt engg colleges for OBC's was available at < 70 % while in the 80's with the inclusion of sundry caste groups into the OBC pool, the min. % for admission shot up to over 85% in PCM. It is the same case with SC/ST admissions - I say, include Muslims as SC/ST and let them avail of the SC/ST pool of reservations. There is another angle to this thinking and I need not explain it but you can extrapolate this thinking. The best bet would be if Congress goes ahead with the inclusion of Muslims into SC/ST categories. But it should be all Muslims and the reservation % should be kept constant.
Posted by: Prof. Godbole May 12 2004, 06:13 PM
Shri. Abhijit_ST, Very nice idea! It is good to know that orginal, creative ideas still always emnate from "us". But the only problem is the guys you are trying to screw already know about such schemes, and how to deal with them!
Posted by: Abhijit_ST May 12 2004, 06:19 PM
Prof. Godbole, if you would be so kind as to educate me how I am trying to 'screw' and whom and how they would 'counter' that, I would be grateful. Sincerely,
Posted by: G.Subramaniam May 12 2004, 06:53 PM
Abhijit --- 75% of Indian muslims are included in the Mandal list wherein they compete with hindu OBC However even in this limited pool, their performace is dismal and they want specific muslim quotas In Karnataka ( 6% ) and Kerala ( 12%) , congress has given muslim only reservations
Posted by: vijnan_anand May 13 2004, 03:34 AM
IMHO, we should have Muslim only quotas in ministries too. The constitution should be amended to create the post of a Muslim DPM. The Muslim DPM should have veto power over every act of govt., other than that he should also be responsible for promoting dawah, since so many are still in darkness.
Posted by: Sudhir May 13 2004, 07:37 AM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ May 13 2004, 07:23 AM)
75% of Indian muslims are included in the Mandal list wherein they compete with hindu OBC
Where Christians not in that Mandal list? Why thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif What about Parsis? Or Sikhs?
Posted by: fanne May 15 2004, 05:15 PM
Ok guys, I am jumping in straight!! Without going into the merit of the assertion, let me state -- the caste politics in India is a reality and here to stay. And in my opinion it is good in many respect (with some obvious pitfalls). The way caste is distributed in India among the 85% of population (of Hindus at least) is 15 % forward, 48% BC and MBC caste and 15% SC and 7 % ST. Clearly, no political party in India can ever rule without the support of BC and MBC group. All the above mention 3 groupings are highly fractured, but a general observation would be that BC and MBC catse ar loyal voter to their respective parties, yadavs to lallo and Mulayam, Kurmis to Samta, Reddys to congress, Jats to BJP in Rajasthan and Ajit Singh in UP...Marathas to Sharad Pawar in Maharastra., Vokkalings to Devegowdas The point I am asking is, and without being emotional or a mart alec, just dispassionate objective analysis, why are forward caste so unloyal to the party, I mean why in Bihar or in UP they deserted BJP in big number this time. WHY ? Case in point is --Rajnath Singh got Kalyan Singh kicked out, destroyed Lodh (8% vote in UP) VOTE consolidation and apparently these lodh voters did not return back to BJP, but in the bargain, I guess except for him he did not bring any Rajput votes to BJP, they went en mass to SP. What are the prospects that now the congress is resurgent, the forward caste will desert BJP and go congress way (is already happening in Varanasi area WITH REGARDS TO Brahmins). Can anyone who knows or understand, why is this happening or what is happening....what, why, how etc of this phenomenon. The last point is if BJP wants to rule India, it has to capture a large chunk of MBC, OBC vote bank, a vote bank arguably more loyal, more religious, less egoistic. Anyway I want this thread and inputs from you guys regarding the voting preference and why they are the way they are. rgds, fanne
Posted by: G.Subramaniam May 15 2004, 05:54 PM
Modi is a OBC Uma Bharati is a Lodh Katiyar is a Kurmi Brahmins are very disloyal to hindu causes in UP and bihar Muslim vote banking was started by UP-bihar brahmins WB commie leaders are brahmins There are a subset of very loyal brahmins in Sangh etc, but much of the psec class is brahmins Reason I think is convent education Further, Thakurs gave their daughters to muslim kings, so how can one expect loyalty Govindacharya of RSS wanted social engineering, In the same breath we have many forward caste posters complain about Mandal The Mandal beneficiaries are OBC Either lump it reg Mandal or lose the OBC vote
Posted by: G.Subramaniam May 15 2004, 06:01 PM
In southern states xtians are on reservation list Sikhs are included in reservation list Buddhists are included in reservation list
Posted by: fanne May 16 2004, 06:57 AM
'cmon guys give me your honest answers!! thanks and regards, fanne
Posted by: Mudy May 16 2004, 08:25 AM
In UP, booth capturing was main reason for such a debacle, but UP higher caste don't vote in number like lower caste. Initially, they were under impression, who ever will come we will rule. Now, whoever will come they will not care about us, we can't change, so don't vote. They don’t vote as block. Only after Ram Mandir, they voted in big number. It is a pathetic situation of higher caste; slowly they will be extinct race in India. They are the most hated group in India.
Posted by: siddhartha_shukla May 16 2004, 08:54 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ May 16 2004, 08:55 PM)
In UP, booth capturing was main reason for such a debacle, but UP higher caste don't vote in number like lower caste. Initially, they were under impression, who ever will come we will rule. Now, whoever will come they will not care about us, we can't change, so don't vote. They don’t vote as block. Only after Ram Mandir, they voted in big number. It is a pathetic situation of higher caste; slowly they will be extinct race in India. They are the most hated group in India.
QUOTE
In UP, booth capturing was main reason for such a debacle,
Do you have any reports or articles to suggest so ?
Posted by: Mudy May 16 2004, 08:59 AM
Ya, Khursheed of Cong-i want investigation on booth capturing by SP and BSP in UP, including biased counting as his wife lost election. It was in TOI - I have stopped checking Indian Newspaper for now.
Posted by: Mudy May 17 2004, 07:15 AM
TMMK asks Cong to implement reservation for Muslims Press Trust of India Coimbatore, May 17 Tamil Nadu Muslim Munnetra Kazhakam (TMMK) on Monday has asked the new Government to be formed by Congress at the Centre to fulfill its election promises to provide reservation for Muslim community and also to withdraw the 'draconian' POTA immediately
Posted by: kautilya May 17 2004, 10:04 AM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Feb 22 2004, 10:44 PM)
Genetic Study Confirm Origin of Hindu Caste System Latest genetic research supports the anthropological and historical theory that the Hindu caste system and the link between the Europeans invasion from west. Those born into higher castes in India may be more related to Europeans, while lower castes may be more similar to Asians, the research finds. The original Hindu caste system is said to have started when Indo-European nomadic groups called Aryans invaded India about 5000 years ago. They set themselves as priests and then divided the society they encountered into a four-part caste system -- Brahmans (priests and teachers), Kshatriyas (rulers and warriors), Vaisyas (merchants and traders) and Sudras (workers and peasants) who were born to serve the other three. There also are castes within castes; in all, there are more than 1,000. Lowest in the social order are the Harijans or Untouchables. They did all the dirty work. Researchers from the United States, the United Kingdom, and India studied the linkage between the Europeans and high caste in India by DNA. "We've been working in India, asking questions about the origins of the caste system and tribal populations," says Dr. Michael Bamshad, an assistant professor at the University of Utah's Eccles Institute of Human Genetics in Salt Lake City. "We were also interested in the effects of social forces on biological variations." Bamshad and his colleagues conducted their research by drawing blood from eight different populations in the lower, middle and upper castes. They compared five different types of genetic data, Bamshad says. "Two of those types are inherited only from your mother -- called mitochondrial data -- and two of those types are from the Y chromosome, so they come only from the father." The researchers compared the data to about "750 Africans, Asians and Europeans and then compared the affinities of the castes of different ranks with those continental groups," Bamshad says. The genetic data from the mother shows "some evidence of European markers," Bamshad reports. The higher the caste, the "higher the frequency of those European markers," he says. But genes passed on from the father show a more striking pattern. "When we looked at father markers, we see that the castes are more similar to Europeans than Asians, again with the upper classes being closer to Europeans than the lower classes," Bamshad says. Though discrimination against the ancient caste system was declared illegal by bothe Nepalese and Indian government, it still continues as part of day to day life in both countries. The findings, which appear in the May issue of Genome Research, support the historical data showing that India was in part populated by people from Turkey, the Middle East, the Caucasus or Eastern Europe, Bamshad says. "And it also suggests that those who migrated from Europe often left their descendents in the higher castes rather than the lower castes," Bamshad says. "The evidence from the Y chromosomes shows that it was the men who married into the upper castes, and it appears that more men than women moved into India, and that certainly is consistent with the concept of a marauding army." Bamshad's research falls under the rubric of molecular anthropology, says Peter Underhill, senior research scientist in genetics at Stanford University. "The main thrust of this research project is to better understand the Indian population, where it came from, how it developed." "This research, which attempts to correlate genetics with the historical record, provides good genetic evidence, and such correlations are reassuring," Underhill says. "What's particularly nice about this paper is that it doesn't emphasize one slice of the genome. It weaves in genetics from both men and women." While Bamshad's research has no direct relevance, "it would be of some interest to medical genetic studies. It's another piece of the puzzle that might help scientists understand certain traits within the Indian population," Underhill says. http://www.pravidhik.com/news/nw/n0001.htm
I used to have a series of genetic papers that said the other thing, i.e. Aryans as a race does not exist and I once long back posted them on BR. I will see if I can find them. By the way even this paper says the difference is only in kshatriya and brahmins are same as everybody else. And, I remember that when I read the paper, I did not feel that even among the kshatriya the difference was that big statistically speaking, and even insignificant in some cases. So, the brahmins the highest caste are genetically indistinguishable between north or south, high caste or low caste, and not much difference between kshatriya. Even that diffeence is more pronounced in North. Make your own conclusions about misrepresentation.
Posted by: rajesh_g May 27 2004, 04:07 PM
From common minimum programme from UPA
QUOTE
SOCIAL JUSTICE: The UPA will urge the state to make legislation for conferring ownership rights in respect of minor forest produce, including tendu leaves on all those people from weaker sections who work in the forests. All reservation quotas, including those relating to promotions will be fulfilled in a time-bound manner. The UPA government will launch a comprehensive national programme for minor irrigation of all lands owned by Dalits and adivasis. Landless families will be endowed with some land through proper implementation of land ceiling and land redistribution legislation. The UPA administration will take all measures to reconcile the objectives of economic growth and environmental conservation, particularly as far as tribal communities dependent on forests are concerned. The UPA is concerned with the growth of Naxalite violence in different states. This is not merely a law and order problem but a far deeper socio-economic issue, which will be addressed more meaningfully than has been the case so far. The UPA government will immediately review the overall strategy and programmes for the development of tribal areas to plug loopholes and to work out more viable livelihood strategies. In addition, more effective systems of relief and rehabilitation will be put in place for tribal and other groups displaced by development projects. The UPA government will immediately initiate a dialogue with industry and other parties on how best the private sector can fulfill the aspirations of scheduled caste and scheduled tribe youth.
http://in.rediff.com/election/2004/may/21cmptext.htm
Posted by: Mudy May 27 2004, 06:40 PM
Quota for Muslims in government jobs mooted By Our Staff Reporter www.hindu.com/2004/05/28/...430600.htm HYDERABAD, MAY 27. The State Government plans to set up a commission, on the lines of the one headed by Puttuswamy, to provide for 5 per cent reservation for Muslims in employment in the Government sector, according to the Minister for Information and Public Relations, Mohd. Ali Shabbir. Addressing a get-together organised by the Andhra Pradesh Union of Working Journalists here today, he said that the Chief Minister, Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy, had given an assurance regarding implementation of reservation for Muslims while addressing a meeting of ulemas in the morning. Mr. Ali Shabbir said the setting up of the commission had to be approved by the State Assembly. He said the Puttuswamy Commission, although in office for nine years, did not do much for the benefit of the people. The Muslims already had reservation in education vide GO 86 issued 10 years ago. He would instruct the A.P. Minorities Finance Corporation to sanction liberal loans for Muslim youth to solve their unemployment problem, he said. The Minister promised steps by the Government to streamline the working of the Journalists' Welfare Fund, to implement orders on use of Urdu as second official language and to resolve the dispute in a Telugu daily by holding discussions with the management. While stressing the important role played by the media, Mr. Ali Shabbir appealed to journalists to take closer to the people the welfare measures taken up by the Government, particularly farmers, in the context of their increasing number of suicides. The media should help the Government generate confidence in farmers and make them understand that resorting to the desperate action was not a solution to the problems faced by them. He appealed to NRIs and corporates to come to the aid of farmers. He criticised the Telugu Desam government for focussing attention on an individual and neglecting the rural areas. According to a press note issued by the Chief Minister's office, Dr. Rajasekhara Reddy assured the Muslim community at the ulemas' meeting that the Government would do everything for its welfare. It would revive the Puttuswamy Commission and, if necessary, examine the possibility of setting up a fresh commission for a deeper study of the problems of Muslims. He directed the Minister to look into the representation seeking rebuilding of the Hashmi mosque dismantled at the Secretariat.
Posted by: Mudy May 30 2004, 11:10 PM
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/709348.cms
Posted by: Mudy Jun 2 2004, 01:10 PM
"YS RajaSekhar Reddy, Andhra CM has ordered the officials to recognize Muslims as BCs and support them with various welfare programmes. He said that 5% reservations should be provided to Muslims in all such welfare programmes. He said that, in allotment houses etc., Muslims should be given priority. He also said that Minority economic welfare organizations should be strengthened, and granting of loans should be made easier and loans should be given for less interest rate." Source: Telugu News Paper : EENADU (2 June, 2004)
Posted by: Viren Jun 2 2004, 01:17 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 2 2004, 04:10 PM)
He also said that Minority economic welfare organizations should be strengthened, and granting of loans should be made easier and loans should be given for less interest rate."
Who is paying for all this? Is this coming out of personal YSRs or Cong kitty? When there are still poverty stricken farmers committing suicide our Nero is distributing wealth based on caste/religion grenade.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jun 2 2004, 01:22 PM
QUOTE
Who is paying for all this?
Those who gave him vote. Those who were too lazy to move their butts to polling station. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Viren Jun 2 2004, 01:40 PM
Mudy:
QUOTE
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury." -- Alexander Tyler, Scottish historian
So in a way I guess the majority are voting themselves out.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 2 2004, 05:45 PM
The more I look at the current government in India, the more scared I am about India's future. It almost look like a party of thieves. I mean look at the kind of ministers they have. For e.g. Laloo -- the less said the better, and Tamaludin is actually a murderer and kidnapper. Why is it that people in India vote for people like these? I would really like to figure this out. Is it apathy? or is it ignorance? or do I not know something that they know? Ofcourse another bogey that they have thrown out is the new call for reservations in private sector. If they manage to implement that, I think we are definitely screwed. How can India be made a meritocracy rather then a casto-cracy? (that is a new term I think ??)
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 2 2004, 05:49 PM
Casto-cracy ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 3 2004, 06:41 PM
http://us.rediff.com/money/2004/jun/03jobs.htm Videocon, Taj, LG face jobs quota BS Bureau in Mumbai | June 03, 2004 08:10 IST Companies that seek to renew land leases in Maharashtra or seek aid from the state government, face the prospect of being told by the government to reserve 52 per cent of all new recruitments every year for the backward classes. The Maharashtra government is implementing a job reservation law for creating employment opportunities for the backward sections of society in the private sector. "One of the first major corporates to be impacted by the new legislation will be Indian Hotels Company. The Taj hotel property in south Mumbai is housed on land leased from the government, which comes up for renewal in 2005. When the group approaches the state government for renewing the lease, the state will seek a written undertaking on job reservations in the hotel for backward classes," a senior official at the state government's law and judiciary department said. However, when contacted, a senior Indian Hotels executive said, "We haven't received any notification to this effect and so we would not like to comment on it." The Maharashtra State Public Services (Reservation for Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes, Denotified Tribes) Act may also have a bearing on other companies that have, or intend to set up plants at the Maharashtra Industrial Development Corporation-created industrial townships, besides those eligible for major incentives such as sales tax exemptions. The Videocon group, which has three plants at Aurangabad on land obtained from the government, will be affected also. So will LG Electronics India, which is seeking to establish a plant at Pune. Videocon group Chairman Venugopal Dhoot said, "We welcome the move and will follow the law." YV Verma, head of human resources at LG, said, "I'm not aware of this."
Posted by: Mudy Jun 3 2004, 06:44 PM
They should pack higher caste in container and dump them in sea. All ills of society will be solved in one shot.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 4 2004, 11:36 AM
http://in.rediff.com/money/2004/jun/04quota.htm Govt to pursue job quota in private sector: Paswan
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 4 2004, 11:47 AM
One can see a pattern. When a govt comes to power with a shaky coalition it immediately tries to consolidate its vote bank expecting early elections. Whether they are destabilising for the country or not, doesnt matter. If and when this legislation happens, expect some major turbulence with everybody in a mad rush to consolidate and/or expand its constituency.. sad.gif
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 4 2004, 12:38 PM
Can the Govt introduce a private sector reservation bill without a constitutional amendment? This pvt sector resrvation thing is extremely scary. How do you define private sector? Does the roadside chaiwalla have to employ his sidekick from the reserved category? is it only SC/ST or the whole shebang? you can introduce pvt sector reservation only if the following conditions are met - Complete privatization of all public sector undertakings - complete labor reform - a hire/fire policy. Sometimes I feel that India is becoming like the state depicted in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. How long can the meritorious keep producing only to be denied any fair play and on top of that, the fruits of their work being taken away from them to be distrubuted to the undesreving and to top it all, to deny a legitimate future to their offspring? Why should an upper caste graduate unemployed feel any love for his country if he has no share in the governance or economics of the country?
Posted by: Mudy Jun 4 2004, 01:13 PM
Look at Bihar and UP run by so called low caste, where these states are heading. Same future is stored for rest of India. Give more power to Yadav, Mahar and whateve... They should implement SC/ST 75% and minority 25% reservation in media. I will be happy to support them. biggrin.gif Lets see whether rediff will print my letter--- biggrin.gif I agree with Mr. Paswan. There is a lack of representation of SC/ST/OBC in private sector, especially in media. To overcome lack of representation in media, for next 10 years there should be atleast 75% reseveration for ST/ST/OBC in media. I hope great leader of India will fulfill promises he had made. I hope rediff will set good example and will be showcase for everyone. specool.gif
Posted by: Viren Jun 4 2004, 01:39 PM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 4 2004, 03:38 PM)
Can the Govt introduce a private sector reservation bill without a constitutional amendment? This pvt sector resrvation thing is extremely scary. How do you define private sector? Does the roadside chaiwalla have to employ his sidekick from the reserved category? is it only SC/ST or the whole shebang?
I guess the business forces have the muscle reject this ridiculous notion. If they haven't built that clout yet then it's really sad. It's a price they'll pay for looking the other way all these years.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 4 2004, 01:46 PM
I think govt. can implement reservation by giving tax insentive to Private sector, at this moment treasury is overflowing, to retain power they can use these type of cheap goodies. What about promotion on caste basis? Are they going to implement reservation on top position? I hope they should. Anyway, this govt will try to bring bill in parliament. This idea was first given by our last Indian Pres. Narayan.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 4 2004, 04:57 PM
The point is, the private sector has to actually make profit in order to survive unlike the public sector. If the reservations pose a threat to profits, then pvt sector will have to take steps to counter such a threat. But the fact of the matter is, a large no. of jobs in pvt sector also do not affect the ultimate profit potential. If this horrendous idea is forced down the throat of the industry, then the industry will treat it as an additional tax burden - thus if u need 10 smart guys to do a project and due to reservation, you are left with 5 good, 2 medium and 3 faaltu members, the company can't jeopardize the project and will add 1-2 more good guys and will burden the team of 6-7 good plus the baggage people to complete the task. In the short run, there may be adverse effect on companies' ability to sustain a competitive adge but eventually, the company will hire more people, give them higher salaries and discriminate against the bad ones through salaries - thankfully in India you can't sue an employer for giving you less salary compared to your peers. There may be a jump in the hiring to offset the deadwood and eventually the inflation will rise because the industry will try to compensate the cost of deadwood by raising prices. Of course, an export industry such as IT may not be able to pass on the cost increase. Also it will not let the incompetant candidates anywhere near the customer - imagine call centers having to hire the incompetant people - they will be ruined if they let such worthies anywhere near a phone. So such candidates will become ball-boys and elevated peons. This move will simply increase rather than decrease the discrimination. CUrrently the professionals in any industry do not discriminate aginst any candidates (generally speaking) - because even if they have been educated through a reservation system, the company has hired them only after verifying their skillset. Now if it is forced to hire incompetants, the professional class wil perforce introduce an untouchability-like attitude - exactly the opposite of what is needed.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 4 2004, 05:19 PM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 5 2004, 05:27 AM)
The point is, the private sector has to actually make profit in order to survive unlike the public sector. If the reservations pose a threat to profits, then pvt sector will have to take steps to counter such a threat. ......
The simple fact is however it is put forward, it will increase the cost of business. In an economy increasing the cost of business has a simple effect -- a) either business shuts down, or b) it expands less or c) increses the price it charges the consumer. In all th cases the economy looses, and is less efficient then it could have been. Frankly, having seen how the people who came into my undergrad college through reservation struggled to even pass the exams, reservation only really fool them. What they need is better education, not reservation in education on jobs. Do SC/STs feel that they have less brains? If not then they should demand equal opportunity in education through loans/scholarships etc., and that should be the extent of it. Anything more is an impedement to creation of a society with equality.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 4 2004, 05:41 PM
At the outset let me clarify that Modi is a backward caste and he has done an excellent administration in Gujurat, scam-free, jihad-free and pro-business We should not be knee-jerk anti-backward caste There are thousands of forward caste scumbags including the brahmin CPM politburo There are 2 ways for a backward caste leader to operate 1. Operate as a leader for all, like Modi and work to increase the pie so that everyone gets lifted out of poverty 2. Operate as a caste leader like Lalloo and loot the state for your caste A lot of commies and missionaries actually promote the Lalloos over the Modis since it serves their aim to disintegrate hindu society
Posted by: kautilya Jun 4 2004, 06:00 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Jun 5 2004, 06:11 AM)
At the outset let me clarify that Modi is a backward caste and he has done an excellent administration in Gujurat, scam-free, jihad-free and pro-business We should not be knee-jerk anti-backward caste ......
I don't think anybody is anti-backward caste here. All we are saying is we need to create a society that is based on meritocracy and not casto-cracy. Also, we are against people like laloo because they use the caste card to play with the future of other people and the country, and actually end up dividing people based on castes, and not because he is a yadav/backward caste
Posted by: mitradena Jun 4 2004, 06:09 PM
Is laloo looting for himself or for his caste also? Have his caste members benifited from his rule? If yes, then in what ways?
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 4 2004, 06:34 PM
GS has a point. We should try to manage this situation probably as no matter what we think/say this is bound to happen. Thinking along those lines, incentive based reservation (tax breaks) might not be such a bad idea. However many things need to be worked out. 1. there is definitely going to be a backlash. not only in terms of business but some kinds of agitations etc. This as all parties will immediately feel the urge to consolidate their constituency and do some pretty stupid things. 2. promotions, hire-fire policies, HR costs just to find the right candidates, etc can become logistical nightmares ? 3. some industries will start to feel artificial labor shortages due to unavailability of candidates ? To counter this businesses should try and extract out atleast some kind of hefty tax incentives in order to stay competitive. I think it should be left to state governments to open bus enclaves specifically for this purpose and let businesses decide whether the incentives (free land, power etc) can cover up for the costs that might be incurred ? Also for candidates who are selected on these basis should be required to fund these incentives with an extra tax (5% say) which would prevent indiscriminate use of such facilities ? And most important of all - NO RESERVATIONS FOR MINORITIES - you convert you loose all prvileges. This would probably be the biggest counter to mullah/missionary ?? PS : Whatever happened to women's reservation ??
Posted by: Mudy Jun 4 2004, 06:48 PM
QUOTE
And most important of all - NO RESERVATIONS FOR MINORITIES - you convert you loose all prvileges. This would probably be the biggest counter to mullah/missionary ?? PS : Whatever happened to women's reservation ??
Slowly for votes, minorities will also get reservation. Woman, who cares ? Indian women are better than any SC/ST, whatever, They know how to fight, and will survive with all odds, infact will do better. They have more pride, brains and energy to fight all odds. No reservation for women. biggrin.gif RESERVATION will kill India's private industry except Indian media. Are they going to implement reservation in household help? Before Private industry they should try in Indian armed forces also.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 4 2004, 07:11 PM
Lalloo and Yadavs ---- Yes, Yadavs have benefited a lot from his rule With one exception The biggest beneficiary is muslims, next yadavs Let me clarify, a lot of Yadav Goondas have benefited the common yadav who numbers in millions has not benefited from the disintegration of bihar a few lakh yadavs have benefited Overall a non-casteist efficient rule say JJ or CBNaidu or Modi or SM.Krishna would have benefited all of bihar including Yadavs, but unfortunately too many of the Yadavs are still in the grip of casteism and feel benefited if their casteman loots the state even though they personally starve Yadavs feel happy they can bash up bhumihars and Rajputs For this they allow Muslim Don of Siwan and other muslims to kill yadavs
Posted by: kautilya Jun 4 2004, 07:41 PM
QUOTE (rajesh_g @ Jun 5 2004, 07:04 AM)
GS has a point. We should try to manage this situation probably as no matter what we think/say this is bound to happen. .....
I would be totally against reservations of sny kind, for the simple reason that once you get a foot in the door, then it opens the gate for a flood of new reservations. I think it is a completely stupid idea, and should be nipped in the bud. Also, when has reservations ever benefitted any politician? VP Singh tried it, and lost power. I think th ebiggest problem among today's politicians is tha tthey don't understand what people want. They simply want good governance, but that is too much hard work for these bunch of morons we have for leaders.
Posted by: vijnan_anand Jun 5 2004, 01:59 AM
India is being ruled by the mob, the mob wants more reservation, they will get it. Today, only companies that accept govt. incentives will be forced to accept reservations, tommorow, all will be. Indian is Flush.gif
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 5 2004, 11:17 AM
Inciting hate is a lot easier than telling the uncomfortable truth 1. It is easier to incite hatred against brahmins , upper castes whatever than to ask backward castes to put emphasis on education and showing meritocracy benefits all 2. The missionaries are behind this, using this to evangelise Keeping 2, in mind, missionaries are baiting the forward castes to over-react and then appear as savior to the backward castes It then behoves us from falling into the missionary trap
Posted by: Mudy Jun 5 2004, 11:57 AM
GS, What people should do, sit quietly ?
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 5 2004, 04:09 PM
For any political party to come out against reservations would be a political suicide. Parties are not going to take any public stand against it. Media commentators, political pundits, economists of all variety will have to bring the debate to public before it starts in the parliament. Murthy, Ambani, Premji, Bajaj, Tatas etc should be made to come out with their viewpoints on this. Their viewpoints as to what kind of accompanying measures will help business to cope with productivity falls should be brought out in public. Its bound to happen - its too much for politicos to resist - especially with the current 'mandate'. We will have to make it more manageable. somehow..
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 5 2004, 07:24 PM
Mudy -- The street agitations of the anti-Mandal must be avoided Next This was planned 2 years ago by Congress and Digvijay Singh with the help of missionaries As an alternative offer a backward caste loan bank to start businesses on their own During congress rule a 500 crore minority ( muslim ) loan bank was created to offer loans just for muslims Next , in the interests of hindu unity, private companies must do outreach programs to backward caste hindus As I said, the final civil war with the abrahamists is coming within 50 years Finally in the real world, what will happen is that private businesses will bribe inspectors Next insist that this rule apply to all private businesses, for example enforce it on muslim companies, xtian companies Finally the option of bribing to get false caste certificates
Posted by: Mudy Jun 5 2004, 10:09 PM
Do you think these girls need reservation ?- Nope user posted image Cadets of the National Cadet Corps learn to use rifles during a 12-day training camp
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 6 2004, 07:13 AM
I agree that meritocracy is ideal Singapore does only meritocracy In the real world, inciting jealousy is easier than telling someone to work hard Missionaries are using this as a wedge issue To avoid being on the wrong end of this, have your caste produce lots of babies and be violent Welcome to the real world
Posted by: Mudy Jun 6 2004, 10:19 AM
GS, Why we have to kill each other, when thing can be changed by using other tactics? In place of seprating them by quota etc. If remove all restriction and let them compete on equal footing. e.g Relax age limit for lower caste, put restriction if they have more than 2 kids etc. If UPA decides to go ahead with its plan it will be disaster for contry.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 6 2004, 10:23 AM
There has to be a middle way. 1. upper limit for reservations to disadvantaged classes. 2. part of the cost to born by the person who avails of the benefit. 3. a common reservation pool to be shared by all disadvantaged classes. PS : Cool photo Mudy thumbup.gif PPS : Everybody please focus on practical solutions. Moral outrage aint gonna cut it - lets face it populism is very attractive.. sad.gif
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 6 2004, 01:40 PM
Mudy of course it is disaster for the country thats why the missionaries are promoting this, so that out the increased fragmentation and poverty, they can pick up more converts The commies also support this since a weaker India benefits China
Posted by: mitradena Jun 6 2004, 03:47 PM
I would like to point out that the Brahmana exists because of the backing of the so called backward castes. If they did not want the Brahmana to exist, he would have been finished long time ago. Even in in Communist ruled kerala and DMK ruled Tamil nadu the others jatis refused to remove the Brahmana temple priests. That being the case the Brahamana must rely on his sharp intellect to defang the islamic/christian brigade. He must not fall for their propoganda & attack his own hindu brothers.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 6 2004, 03:59 PM
mitradena, I agree with you, we need deep reform in Hindu soceity not war. Reform doesn't not mean dilution of Hinduism but taking back to Vedic ideology. First step, remove last name, start using some other system (Ramputra, Aryaputra etc depends on father name) In gurkul, last name is not used with any name. When student leave Gurkul they use vidyalankar, vachaspati or vedalankar.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 7 2004, 09:14 AM
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_810402,00080001.htm New Delhi, June 7 Former disinvestment minister Arun Shourie said on Monday the new Government's proposal for reservation in the private sector would have an adverse bearing on the investment flow in the country, in an increasingly competitive global environment. "Naturally investment will be more uncertain in an increasingly competitive world... If jobs are given on the basis of my birth and not on the basis of my capability...," Shourie told reporters here. President APJ Abdul Kalam in his address to the joint sitting of Parliament on Monday had observed that the Government was sensitive to the issue of affirmative action including reservations in the private sector and committed to faster socio-economic and educational development of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 7 2004, 02:58 PM
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jun082004/c5.asp Flush.gif BANGALORE, DHNS: The Mysore-based Akhila Bharat Janajagruti Maha Sabha has threatened to launch a Statewide agitation, to demand that no Brahmin should be given any constitutional post in the country. It has decided to stage a seven-day dharna at K R Circle in Mysore from June 14, in support of this demand. Addressing a press conference in Bangalore on Monday, the Maha Sabha President Mantalingaiah said Brahmins were not the original inhabitants of India, and hence should not be given any constitutional post in the country. Distributing copies of an interview of genetic scientist Dr Spencer Wells, conducted by rediff.com, Mr Mantalingaiah said Dr Wells, claimed to have genetic evidence to prove that Aryans, the ancestors of Brahmins, came from outside India. Mr Mantelingaiah claimed Dravidians were the original inhabitants of India with a history of over 50,000 years ago.
Posted by: Viren Jun 7 2004, 03:16 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 7 2004, 05:58 PM)
Addressing a press conference in Bangalore on Monday, the Maha Sabha President Mantalingaiah said Brahmins were not the original inhabitants of India, and hence should not be given any constitutional post in the country.
Now would that qualify as a "communal" statment or a "secular" one blink.gif
Posted by: Sunder Jun 7 2004, 03:17 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 8 2004, 03:28 AM)
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jun082004/c5.asp Flush.gif
QUOTE
Addressing a press conference in Bangalore on Monday, the Maha Sabha President Mantalingaiah said Brahmins were not the original inhabitants of India, and hence should not be given any constitutional post in the country.
He's got the right idea but the wrong target.. Mantalingaiah should target christians, moslems and Greeks (if possible) for they were the ones that invaded Bharat. Next, no English speaking person should be give constitutional post. Finally, anyone who who abides by the constitution should be ousted from his/her hold a constitutional post.
Posted by: mitradena Jun 7 2004, 03:37 PM
G. Subramaniam, Who is this Mantalingaiah? Is he a christian?
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 7 2004, 07:04 PM
Funded by xtians and muslims Many so called Dalit leaders are funded by the 3-m axis
Posted by: Viren Jun 9 2004, 10:01 AM
http://us.rediff.com/money/2004/jun/09dt.htm?headline=What~are~job~quotas~in~pvt~sector~about?
QUOTE
Question: Haven't quotas for scheduled castes and scheduled tribes been around for a while? Yes. But only in the government sector. The private sector has never been brought under the reservation regime. In 1990, Parliament passed a law reserving more than a quarter of all government jobs for the so-called backward castes. The private sector has, however, always been free to choose who it hires. Question: What do corporates think of it? Corporates are terrified of the idea. Industry says while it supports the idea of a solution that will help the so-called backward castes move upward socially and economically, implementing job quotas in the private sector is not the answer. If Indian industry has to be globally competitive, companies say they should have the freedom to hire based on merit, rather than any other reason. Question: Will this scare off foreign firms? Most likely, say economists. Any kind of reservation affects efficiency, which in turns adversely impacts growth. If foreign enterprises do not have the freedom to choose who they can hire and are forced to take in people just to fulfill quotas then they will not come to India as they cannot remain competitive and maintain quality, the economists say. Question: How soon is this likely to be implemented? Right now, the first step being suggested is a dialogue between politicians, industry and trade unions. If a consensus is arrived at, the government can draft legislation and then get it passed in Parliament. The entire process will take a considerable amount of time. One can safely say that job quotas won't be implemented in the private sector in the next couple of years. Question: Are only a few politicians at the Centre pushing for this? Currently yes. But since the idea of reservations has great potential to garner votes, politicians across the spectrum are scared of speaking out against it. In fact, states like Maharashtra now want to take up the idea of reservations in the private sector aggressively. Question: What exactly does Maharashtra want to do? It wants all private employers to have at least half their employees from the so-called backward castes. Maharashtra's legislature is debating a law that could mandate companies to employ up to half their staff ohmy.gif from scheduled castes and scheduled tribes.
Posted by: Viren Jun 9 2004, 10:04 AM
QUOTE
Maharashtra's legislature is debating a law that could mandate companies to employ up to half their staff from scheduled castes and scheduled tribes
I had sometime back talked to friend who owns business in Mumbai about this 'reservations in private sector'. He had cooly replied that if this happens he'll outsource jobs to US tongue.gif
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jun 9 2004, 11:27 AM
I am sure some people would not like what I say, but I have to say it. A part of this problem is the brahmins failing to organize, especially in south India. The brAhmaNas have this foolish baseless guilt syndrome- I have talked to many brahmins of this and they would meekly say we have oppressed the BCs and so we are paying for it now. That is the extant of the subversion of their minds. So I fear that unless they get politically savy they face a dire danger in the near future.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 9 2004, 11:48 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 9 2004, 10:34 PM)
QUOTE
Maharashtra's legislature is debating a law that could mandate companies to employ up to half their staff from scheduled castes and scheduled tribes
I had sometime back talked to friend who owns business in Mumbai about this 'reservations in private sector'. He had cooly replied that if this happens he'll outsource jobs to US tongue.gif
Viren, I dont think that will happen. Its just that people have to bribe some more to get a clearance that they employ enough SC/ST candidates eventually increasing the costs of running business - one more babu to deal with. rolleyes.gif Instead if big business come out with voluntary measures automatically - preempting any move by govt that would be better. Initially a company can have reservations in non-skilled area only - so limiting damage to businesses but the bottomline is this should be without legislation. As I said earlier its bound to happen - some serious damage control needs to be done.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 9 2004, 12:05 PM
My suggestion to GOI 1) All private business must be 50% owned by SC/ST. Those who don’t comply should be asked to close down business. Should be named as “equal opportunity employment and ownership”. 2) Upper caste should be given 10 years to leave India or convert to some other religion or face prosecution. 3) During 10 years Upper caste should be moved to segregated complex and deprive from any further education. These measures will bring prosperity in India and upper caste will not suffer from any syndrome.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 9 2004, 01:58 PM
From viren's post
QUOTE
Question: How soon is this likely to be implemented? Right now, the first step being suggested is a dialogue between politicians, industry and trade unions. If a consensus is arrived at, the government can draft legislation and then get it passed in Parliament. The entire process will take a considerable amount of time. One can safely say that job quotas won't be implemented in the private sector in the next couple of years.
It seems like they want to get political milage out of it, but it will be stalled long enough, that it may not matter. I don't think this govt. is going to last for two years.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 9 2004, 02:07 PM
With due respect, please look at the enormous saleability of the idea. Once again, it is bound to happen, if not now then a few years down the road. Lets try to figure out a way to make it work in the best way for India. And one more time, moral outrage aint gonna work.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 9 2004, 02:21 PM
QUOTE (rajesh_g @ Jun 10 2004, 02:37 AM)
With due respect, please look at the enormous saleability of the idea. Once again, it is bound to happen, if not now then a few years down the road. Lets try to figure out a way to make it work in the best way for India. And one more time, moral outrage aint gonna work.
If we wait for a few years, then following things will be most probably true-- a) Economy will no longer be in hands of govt. Huge amounts of foreign money will be involved and invested here. so, if govt. even makes a sound of doing it, their will be a whooosh sound of all the money being sucked away and millions loosing the jobs in a few days. No govt. can withstand that. Right now the govt. may be able to do it, but by that time the integration with world economy should many times then now. Also, at that time "foreign pressure" will be against it, as it will also effcet their economies. b) hopefully the current govt. will not last that long, and bjp will just let it die through the standard process of committe/study groups etc. b) In any govt. waiting for a couple of years for a committe means indefinite wait. so, this may just be buried by the thsi and the next govt. in committes like the women reservation bill. I am optimistic smile.gif P.S. even china has been successfuly "pressured" by "foreign govt.s" take back decision. never underestimate the greed and power of a capitalist. wink.gif
Posted by: Viren Jun 9 2004, 02:32 PM
rajesh_g: Companies are in business to make money - dosen't get any simpler than that. With world wide globalization, shrinking markets, increasing competition and pressures to get the best out with least, business can't get into implementing social reforms on behalf of govt. Current govt wants someone else to foot this bill. Why can't they take a dose of their own medicine and start at the top. My suggestion: atleast 95% (nothing less) of every Lok Sabha, Rajya Sabha seats to be put on reserved list. Think any of those 'Boston Brahmins' elected from W Bengal on Left ticket will accept this? If not, why should they force it down someone else' throat? Private companies can voluntararily fund charities, give scholarships etc to needy (irrespective of caste/creed/color/religion). As far as them running the business they ought to have a free hand. Otherwise we might as well start regulating business the old Soviet style.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 9 2004, 03:02 PM
Viren/Kautilya, I do understand the outrage and agree with all that you guys say. However all this will come back as soon as there is an election round the corner. This issue is not going to go away. I have been hearing this politics ever since i was a kid. In gujarat INC practically thrives on the KHAM lobby (Kshatriya-Harijan-Adivasi-Muslim). In absence of emotive issues where do you think these people are going to go to ? The pull is irresistable. We can say this or that but the lobby that these guys cater to is HUGE. And if we as a population are not going to take control over it the govt and netas will take it out of our hands. Just look at the last election - do you think india shining helped in any way ? What about greed of these votebanks ? We have to do something first before netas get to do something. Simple things like Infosys saying we will employ backward classes if they donate 5% of their income to the "infosys foundation" or something like that will send the right message. There has to be preemption or we will be left behind expressing moral outrage at this and that. What I am saying is that we should not allow commies/yadavs/mayawatis to be the sole voice for this. Lets be practical.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 9 2004, 03:59 PM
QUOTE
Lets be practical.
Why we should encourage discrimination at any order? This is reverse discrimination. Something which is wrong should be discouraged at any cost. First they should fix existing reservation. Put a restriction, each family can use once; it should not be passed as father to son. People who use reservation should donate 5% income to SC/ST national fund. Singapore govt deduct some percentage of salary for "my race" national fund, which is used for scholarship for "my race". [my race =Indian or Malay or Chinese or White]
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 9 2004, 04:05 PM
QUOTE
People who use reservation should donate 5% income to SC/ST national fund
This is being practical. specool.gif While asking "why should be encourage discrimination" is impractical. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif No matter how right/wrong it is - its going to get people votes - and as long as that lure remains there will be casto-cracy, casteist parties and what not. sad.gif
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 9 2004, 06:34 PM
Mudy, inciting jealousy is the easiest thing in the world Again missionaries are behind this It is easier to set up anti-brahmin quotas than ask the backward castes to emulate the brahmins in studying hard The real world is unfair If any caste feels it is unfair, then simply over-produce babies to be a significant vote bank and get their caste listed as backward BTW, Malaysia has quotas in the private sector too As Rajesh says, moral outrage wont work in the real world In all probability it means false caste certificates and bribes to govt employees
Posted by: kautilya Jun 9 2004, 07:21 PM
I feel that if they wait two years in committes etc. as they are saying, then even if it is implemented it is going to be heavily watered down version. Maybe they will end up implementing sonething like sffirmative action in USA. But, most probably it won't be.
Posted by: mitradena Jun 9 2004, 07:22 PM
The thing to remember here is that India is huge complicated mess of a nation. Imagine having to run such a diverse nation of languages, castes, tribes etc... So we need to work to preserve India's unity & hindu unity. Lots of people hate India and hinduism. They are trying to attack us and divide us so they can kill all of us. So remain calm & don't get worked up. The Brahmana is not the cause of India's problems or the backwardness of other communities. He is just being made a scapegoat. Why Brahmanas did not raise an army to defend themselves during islamic attacks? Why did they not bother to have at least 1 state in India which they could call their own land? Who is to blame for their indifference, laziness & stupidity? They are only a scattered minority living in isolated corners, barely 1% of the population in most states. And in Uttar Pradesh, the original Brahmana homeland they are barely 10%. So who's fault is it that the Brahmana is getting kicked left and right by everyone today? It is his own fault. It is his laziness, procrastination that has led him into this dire situation. Time for the Brahmana fools to wake up or get wiped out.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 9 2004, 07:49 PM
QUOTE
Why Brahmanas did not raise an army to defend themselves during islamic attacks? Why did they not bother to have at least 1 state in India which they could call their own land? Who is to blame for their indifference, laziness & stupidity?
They are most punished group of Indian society. Every invader came and destroyed temples. During those days temples were not only place of worship but attached to schools and asharams. All invaders destroyed Asharams, murdered Brahmins and their family. Now Commies are doing same. If you read Arthashastra, for a crime Brahmins were punished severely then other group, there were restrictions for remarriage even for Brahmin widower. During British period ridiculing Brahmin became prominent and after freedom it is still continuing. What you are saying is exact propaganda spread by britishers and now it is called facts. Have you seen rich Brahmins except those who are in business? Brahmins are now less than 9% of total population of India and majority of them are poor. Now it is a fashion every other person gets up in morning and start cursing Brahmins for their own sins. What commies/Kangress are doing destroying education system, and then control minds of rest of population, same other invaders did, destroy educators and seat of education and subjugate rest of population.
Posted by: mitradena Jun 9 2004, 09:50 PM
A lot of people on this planet want to do to Brahmanas what has been done to the zoroastrians of Iran or what has happened to the Kashmiri pandits. Our "moderate" enemies want us end up like the 2 groups above. Our more "extremist" enemies want us to end up like the jews at auschwitz. So the question before every Brahmana today is what he going to do about it? The answer requires some deep thinking...
Posted by: Sunder Jun 9 2004, 10:03 PM
QUOTE (mitradena @ Jun 10 2004, 10:20 AM)
So the question before every Brahmana today is what he going to do about it?
In Chess, when you develop your pieces, you never attack the king first. You only develop in such a way that you eleminate the pieces that 'Defend' the king.. Individual ideas here and there are not enough.. If you have watched the Chanakya's strategies, he always approached the decision makers. Gain sympathisers who are go-getters. YOU are the primary influence. YOU have to get in touch with anyone who can lend you media time. YOU have the ability to mobilize a small group. I get media time from my local TV shows, where I talk about Sanathana Dharma.. Another venue to gather like minded people is the Mandir. Dont know how strong the mandir culture in US is, but in Canada, it's pretty good. Get the local businessmen, and media members from amongst Hindus. I am not sure what can be done in India without help from RSS/VHP. But if someone can act, it will have to be people like them. Also, it's high time that Shaiva gurus and Vaishnava gurus put aside their personal viewpoints, and unite under the Vaidika Dharma flag.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 9 2004, 10:33 PM
Sunder, Some of us like minded people have to come together and work behind the scenes to make sure that media understands and supports our point of view . Some western groups which have been very successful at this have always worked behind the scenes to do this. Being behind the scenes is essential. Some examples of what these powerful groups have done is -- a) Make sure through funding etc. that the people who support their opinions are at crucial positions in the media. But, the person who gets this position may never know that he has been helped by this group, or may only know an individual member, but not the group or its existence. b) Obfuscate the issues of the other groups by putting FUD against them. All done behind the scenes. c) Take young, upcoming, brilliant but needy people who support the opinions and help them in the studies, career etc. to become powerful and hold the right positions. The crucial part is to do it behind the scenes, so that the other side has no visible target to attack and label "hindutava/bjp/rss etc." . As somebody famous said --" you can do anything in the world, as long as you do not care about the credit". And, the main charter of this group should be to work behind the scenes to get media support etc.. So the members have to be committed people who do not care about credit and only about rise of India and Indic culture. There is also another reason for working behind the scenes, and being publicaly groupless. Let us say a person from the group approaches some crucial media /opinion-maker person to get support in individual capacity. If the person approaching the media guy is not visibly associated with people belonging to a specific visiblke party, it makes the task of convincing much easier. Basically what I am calling for is a group of facillitators, which make the task of whoever is supporting our opinions easier by helping the behind the scenes. P.S. this is also chanakyan strategy. Working behind the scenes in the enemy camp to make sure things go your way.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 10:09 AM
There are way and means of circumventing the pvt. sector reservation stupidity. The CA is one profession where there is no reservation. This is because CA is a certification exam and (so far) there is no reservation in any certification (to the best of my knowledge). Pvt sector has to resort to this kind of certification as a minimum requirement for offering skilled jobs. Thus the industry can set up a certification board that will be in charge of certification of graduates passing out of engg or other professional colleges. The board should provide an intensive exam (including written and oral) with strict passing grades - it is kind of like a bar exam in US - if you get a law degree in US, you still can't practice law unless you clear the bar exam. Similarly all skilled graduates who do not pass the certification requirement will not be considered for any skilled job because they simply do not qualify for it. Even the reservation idiots can't claim that skilled jobs be given to non-qualified candidates. Another way is to stop hiring full-time and outsource most of the non-skilled jobs to local companies that will be paid based on their delivery and service performance. Another thing is to hire contract employees rather than permanent ones. All said and done, even for the opportunistic reservation proponents in pvt sector, it will become abundently clear that you can't kill the goose that is laying golden eggs. The cost of admitting below-standard students in professional colleges, in Govt jobs etc. is being borne by the rest of the society that is efficient and produces wealth - which in turn pays for the inefficiencies of the substandard. So far, the society is creaking along at such sub-optimal rate but hasn't sufferd a reversal in its wealth-producing ability (the output could have been far greater, but at least currently the net effect is till positive). If the idiots go ahead with this policy, they will seriously hamper the output. It may even be easier to just pay an upfront tax that will be distributed to the SC/ST without them having to work. The effect of a substandard employee is sometimes more deletarious than simply paying off this guy his wages while he stays home.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 10 2004, 10:16 AM
Abhijit, I like your idea of certification. Also, the tax idea is better then the actual reservatiions because it will make the cost of helping SC/ST obvious and thus controllable.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 10:29 AM
It's not practical to comeup with some kindof a standardized certification process across the whole nation for each and every skillset. Might help with certain professions like CA, physicans, lawyers or say those in IT. What about those vast majority of say working as salesman, security, weaver in the mill or that call center operator? Every place that you'd go to work for has already it's own screen methods - banks have their exams, police, insurance, pilots etc. all have their own techniques of screening by say national exams, personal interview, group discussions etc. Coming up with an alternative nationalized govt run 'certification' process is not an answer. At best it'll end up "certifying" along caste lines since merticroacy would have gave been dead anyway by then.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 10:38 AM
Since I am on a dreaming spree, let me take it to the hilt smile.gif - There should be a registration program for all the purported beneficiaries of the reservations in pvt sector. - there should be clear cut demakation of which pvt companies (based on their size, revenue, no. of employees etc.) are expected to comply with the reservations. Even the most idiotic proponents of reservations in pvt sector (henceforth termed as RPS) cannot force a small roadside chaiwalla or bania to hire sc/st nor would the sc/st like it. they are, after all, after the plum ones like the tatas, infys, mncs etc. - once the list of RPS beneficieries and providers (victims) is compiled, a formula should be derived for the amount of money that each company must shell out to support the rps. This should take into a/c the profits, revenues, manpower costs etc. of the past 4-5 years (any co. less than 4-5 yrs old should be exempt), such that the burden of this support should equally felt by the rps victims. - then these companies should shell out this money to a central fund - lastly, this fund should simply distribute this money every yr directly to the rps beneficieries (RPSBs) in an equitable manner - better still, dustribute it equally - this should get the support of marxists because after all they believe that an engr and a sweeper are basically equal. so the RPSBs, irrespective of their qualifications, will get a direct cash allowance without having to work and are free to spend their time politicking and agitating for increasing the RPS tax %. This will be the most equitable and most beneficial system of pvt sector reservations.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 10:39 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jun 9 2004, 06:59 PM)
People who use reservation should donate 5% income to SC/ST national fund.
Despite this people used to free stuff will complain that he/she is getting paid 95 paise compared to the rupee he'd have made because of the accident of birth. The problem is much deep-rooted and there are no political solutions. Also, accomodating to do the 'popular' thing versus the 'right' thing was tried before. Didn't work then so why will it work now? If it did work, why fix something that's not broken?
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 10:48 AM
QUOTE
What about those vast majority of say working as salesman, security, weaver in the mill or that call center operator?
Viren, those working at any skilled job should be subjected to the cerification process. If a security needs to have some skills as a se3curity guy, then you can't expect a handicapped 100 lb weakling to do the job. The vast majority that is working in small sector, will have to be exempt from reservations because even the RPSBs are not after this segment. Why would they be when there is no job safety, no high salary, no perks etc. IMO, the RPS proponents are after the lucrative sector that actually makes money and takes care of its workforce. In such a scenario, it is not difficult operationally to device certification programs for all those job types that actually affect the bottomline. Politically it is a different ballgame.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 10:48 AM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 10 2004, 01:38 PM)
- once the list of RPS beneficieries and providers (victims) is compiled, a formula should be derived for the amount of money that each company must shell out to support the rps. This should take into a/c the profits, revenues, manpower costs etc. of the past 4-5 years (any co. less than 4-5 yrs old should be exempt), such that the burden of this support should equally felt by the rps victims.
Abhijit: Big companies like Tatas, Birlas, Wipros, Infy etc have on their payroll a small army of accountants who'll make the numbers make it look whatever they want to make it look to take advantage of this situation. They might even comply to this ridiculous scheme if there's some tax holiday thrown in. Small business really can't afford this. Nor can the tax payer since he'll be footing the bill now matter how - either as increased tax or increase in cost of goods/service.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 10:53 AM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 10 2004, 01:48 PM)
If a security needs to have some skills as a se3curity guy, then you can't expect a handicapped 100 lb weakling to do the job.
Agree Abhijit. The security guy who's handles company gate doing a salam to their boss in the car is the one I was referring to. Not the kind who screens your bags at the airport. Understand it's different for different skills.
QUOTE
The vast majority that is working in small sector, will have to be exempt from reservations because even the RPSBs are not after this segment
Haven't seen anything to the contrary to believe that the RPSBs are going to exempt anyone. It's a political ploy to croon during the next campaign - "hey I forced your local lala bania to give you a job". Doubt if the size of the business matters.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 10:57 AM
Say, 5 % of the topline. How much legroom does an accountant have over this? How much of revenue can you hide? Operationally I am confident that this can be done - politically also, it can be tried. Who doesn't want free money? This can chnage the reservation paradigm. The RPSBs don't even have to become engrs - they will still get some money - this is just another way of redistributing the Babu power directly into the hands of the people. After all, the babus and govt are supposed to spend the tax rupees in an equitable and efficient manner so that the weaker sections get some benefits - we all know that they fk it up royally and loot the treasury now this method is a direct one where the inefficient redistribution of tax rupees will be corrected by directly giving it to the intended beneficiery.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 11:01 AM
QUOTE
The security guy who's handles company gate doing a salam to their boss in the car is the one I was referring to
This guy, and peons and class IV employees in a govt etc. do not need any skills. And meritocracy does not apply to these non-skilled jobs. And they do not have any effect on the company bottomline. the industry does not care if the reservation is kept limited to these non-skilled jobs - it is the skilled ones that they are scred witless about.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 10 2004, 11:03 AM
Another India report: I talked to a few people in India(Delhi and around), and found this The effect of all this pvt. sector reservation noise made by kangress is that middle class absolutly hates the idea. In Delhi which has proven itslef to be a kangress suppoter this year, even the kangress supporters seem to hate the idea. Also, almost all middle/lower-middle class youth seem to hate it. Kangress will loose a lot of these votes in next elections. The middle class swing can easily add a few percentage points to BJP. All BJP has to do is start a low key non-mainstream media campaign that makes people aware of what kangress is trying to do. Also, as shown by VP singh, reservatiions make middle class hate you, and does not increase you vote share among the poor part of sc/st that much. This is so because the poor sc/st see that it never benifits them as much, and their vote is hopelessly divided among multiple parties. A few percent points can imply a huge difference in number of seats bjp can get in next elections.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 11:09 AM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 10 2004, 02:01 PM)
This guy, and peons and class IV employees in a govt etc. do not need any skills. And meritocracy does not apply to these non-skilled jobs.
As far as I know (open for correction), even peons and lowest cadre workers in say banks or insurance have to appear for exams from what I've heard (again no links to prove this) are atleast graduates holding some sort of BAs, BComs etc.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 11:12 AM
QUOTE
Doubt if the size of the business matters.
IMO it does matter. Not because the RPSBs are kind-hearted to the local lala but because there is no way to enforce this at the micro level. It will simply become an additional 'hafta' to the local cops - RPSBs are only after those that can be legally forced to comply with this (should it come to pass) and are big enought o shell out (in RPSB's opinion) some of their profits. The SSI barely survives in today's envmt. It will simply collapse under this directive and that will benefit nobody. Even the RPSBs understand this that there is no golden goose in the small sector. hence they will train their guns on the big ones only.
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 11:29 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 10 2004, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 10 2004, 02:01 PM)
This guy, and peons and class IV employees in a govt etc. do not need any skills. And meritocracy does not apply to these non-skilled jobs.
As far as I know (open for correction), even peons and lowest cadre workers in say banks or insurance have to appear for exams from what I've heard (again no links to prove this) are atleast graduates holding some sort of BAs, BComs etc.
Viren, IMO, the battle is not to be made ideological. If the so-called upper castes are deprived of these non-skilled jobs, it is not going to affect the business of India Inc. Yes, it will affect the upper castes but can they do anything about it? If this RPS thingy is kept confined to these non-skilled jobs only then I would take it as a major victory because at least the industry will be free to do business and can extract some concessions for this generosity. I say, let the RPSBs take 50 % of non-skilled jobs and let's be done with this highway robbery.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 12:06 PM
QUOTE (Abhijit_ST @ Jun 10 2004, 02:29 PM)
I say, let the RPSBs take 50 % of non-skilled jobs and let's be done with this highway robbery.
Abhijit: The way I see it, it's opening a pandora's box and there's no going back. Was tried about 50 years ago in certain sections like education and govt jobs. Now it's creeping into other areas. We can say let's reserve x% here and y% there if only it exceeds z% of company revenue and be done with it. And I'll bet our vote pandering-neta on shaky ground will stump us again, and again and again. Note on all these pages of the threads, there's not a single post (unless I've overlooked) which discuss the raminfications to those millions whose ancestors were never the oppressor nor the victims but are paying price for living in a castrocracy instead of mertiocracy. It is indeed a idealogical battle (that's all we can do in fourms). If we are for a society where we want individuals to be treated as individuals or citizens of India first and everything else next then we can't really accept this populist schemes of dividing the nation. If we are accepting this form of unequality then we might as well start accepting that fact that things like pligrimage subsidy to certain communities are okay too. I like Mudy's suggestion of expediting the whole process asking majority to just close the shop and get out of India. We can inject some fresh blood in this discussion by trying to get hold on some facts/figures such as: (i) What has been the benefits of reservations in past 50+ years - figures and perception (ii) Does reservations affect vote share? (kautilya's post mentions it does not) (iii) Who's actually asking for reservations increase at this point (people on the street or just some politicians (iv) What's the contribution of those who benefitted by reservations in past 50 years (v) How many deserving candidates saw their careers squashed because of this or what's been a $ figure in terms of loss (vi) GS had mentioned of Malaysia's example, would love to see how it's worked there etc..
Posted by: Mudy Jun 10 2004, 12:42 PM
>>>GS had mentioned of Malaysia's example, would love to see how it's worked there Malaysia, it is in favor of majority, minorities can't own more than 49% of private company. They have to take Malay Muslim as partner. Because of one of these discrimination lot of Chinese and Indian origin people have and still moving out of Malaysia.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 10 2004, 01:10 PM
Viren, Good idea, but a study needs to be funded to really get good statistics.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 10 2004, 02:17 PM
Viren, That does look like a good study to do but still wont stop a politico from making a pitch for reservation. And whether reservations are helpful or not people will find it hard to come out against it due to loss of votes while the likely beneficiaries will just think of this as something that gives an immediate bang for a vote. Do you think free power to farmers really helps andhra farmers ? Forget Andhra, in gujarat the reason Modi is going is a power tariff hike - which was being opposed by BKS (BJP affiliate) - they launched a 2 month agitation until Modi threw them out of their office, now they say modi is a hitler and needs to go. Andhra farmers are probably poor - gujju farmers have money (relatively speaking) and they still cannot bear to loose their free previleges. Look at the mad rush amongst all the states to provide free power. The same will happen with reservations. If a politico thinks he doesnt have enough numbers of SC/ST candidates - then his next step would be to find some other caste and make a promise that this caste wll be included as SC or ST or OBC. My guess is that this kind of politics needs to be defeated from within the supposed beneficiary communty - SC/ST that is. A 5-10% additional tax on a candidate who gets a job on SC/ST quota which goes to an SC/ST fund will make people think before they take advantage of some scheme. And it wont be resisted by neta-log as the fund will help SC/ST in the end. The number of SC/ST candidates rejecting SC/ST quotas and going for general quotas will keep on increasing. And more importantly will provide companies/govt some money for better training of SC/ST candidates - the assumption being that since a candidate needs quota protection to get a job he/she needs some extra training to perfomr on par with others ? No matter what we think populism has a lot of supporters. sad.gif
Posted by: Abhijit_ST Jun 10 2004, 02:40 PM
A rational argument based on real-life data that shows that reservations have not beneftted the sc/st/obc masses is like Lata Mangeshkar singing in wilderness. It has zero chance of even stimulating a debate in the society, forget about any change in the policy. That is because the masses do not take decisions based on rationality - otherwise we would never have a kaangress/left govt. The fcat is that this monster is here to stay. If you accept that then the only ways open to you are non-ideological - based on cold hard realpolitik. Even if you want to achieve the final goal of meritocracy, if 90% plus janata does not believe that they have the merit to advance, you get a non-starter. Meritocracy is not achievable - you will need to buy an island like Singapore and populate it with smart people and call it Meritoria and declare independence (i seriously thought about this idea in a younger age) The fact of the matter is, a large no. of resrved candidates do pass out of engg colleges successfully, come to USA on so-called merit and make money. A large no. of so-called skilled jobs in corporate are nothing but repetitious tasks that anybody with average intelligence can do without screwing up. How else would you explain the family succession in a large no. of Indian businesses? do you think businesspeople's scions who run the companies are the best people for the job? They are not but they do run companies and unless they are really screwed up, the companies do run fine. Tell me, do you find any large correlation between a college degree and corporate success? Of coyrse there are really hi-tech areas where you do need to be an expert in your field - but a very large % of jobs do not require very major skills and can be done by reasonably competant people and I do not believe that there is such a total dearth of competence in resrved candidates - I am talking from my own observations - I have seen numerous resrved candidates who passed out of IITs and IIMs successfully and made it big in the corporate world. The battle cannot be won on the basis of ideology because today's routine jobs do not require very great intelligence and 95% marks in PCM (medicine is a different matter though). The question is of social justice - the injustice that is being perpetrated on the so-called upper castes by denying them opportnities that using a biased and flawed criteria Suppose there are only about 20-25% of population that is not a part of sc/st/obc etc. crowd. Then democratically you can never claim that the fruits of Indian entrepreneurship be enjoyed by only these 20-25% because democratically you will always lose. If you are looking for correcting the injustice heaped upon the upper-castes then you have to play the game or look for a meritoria.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 10 2004, 03:03 PM
The data is not going to be for masses, it is going to be for intelligencia and the opinion makers. This class of people has a huge hold over middles class and decide pretty much 100% of the vote of fence sitter part of the middle class. Any data that shows to the middle class fence sitters that -- a) kangress is making a stupid decision b) reservations are bad and don't benefit anybody c) they harm the economy will help. This swing of middle class vote can make a huge difference in the final results. In India most lower class vote is fractured and based on the local isses, so the fence sitters in middle class are very important and can decide the fate of many many seats. In this election the middle class did not come out to vote becase the impression was that it is going to be "more of the same". With this data the middle class can be shown that it is not going to be "more of the same" if kangress is given majority. This will help us bring middle class out to vote. The data will also help to change the mind of some politicians if it can be shown using data that reservations are not benefitial politicaly, but that the effect will be neutral or negative, and they will definitely loose the middle class vote. That will divide the political parties hopelessly on the issue. Also, in this case although they will not openly oppose the reservations, it will be allowed to die a silent death. P.S. Of course my belief is that the issue will be used for political mileage and then allowed to be stuck in committes etc. even in the natural course of things.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 03:24 PM
QUOTE (kautilya @ Jun 10 2004, 04:10 PM)
Viren, Good idea, but a study needs to be funded to really get good statistics.
kautilya: Even if funding is available, the answers to the questions are not so easy for most of us in the forum. But I'm sure there are people who have worked in this area (might not be here on this forum) and can provide a best guesstimate on this. But such things can be brought to the limelite by our media who has a far far bigger voice than we do. Until they start asking some common sense questions that goes against the grain, we are not going anywhere.
QUOTE
Do you think free power to farmers really helps andhra farmers ?
rajesh: Believe it or not, in present circumstance/situation, I do support some temporary relief for farmers. When we have some 3000 farmers who have comitting suicide, it does tell us something. There's a another forumite here from AP who's written to me personally in depth on this; some posted on this forum across different threads. Again, there's nothing against temporary relief under extreme circumstances (kind of like what FEMA does whenever there's a disaster). Nothing permanent. The problem is that a temporary relief soon is mistaken for a god given birth right (case and point look at the farm subsidy here which was once doled out during the depression era to help farmers - today after 70 years it's percerived as their right, lawyers/lobbyist have made a career in DC ensuring that it can't be rolled back)
QUOTE
No matter what we think populism has a lot of supporters. sad.gif
Agree and am also under no illusions that this change will take not years but couple decades. Compare this issue with others that are dividing Indians or putting walls within India. At a high level, how different is this from rooting for Uniform Civil Code or say repealing Article 370? Abhijit:
QUOTE
It has zero chance of even stimulating a debate in the society, forget about any change in the policy. That is because the masses do not take decisions based on rationality - otherwise we would never have a kaangress/left govt.
Don't forget that when this debate hit the streets in early 90s, VP Singh Govt collapsed. Don't underestimate the Indian voter - at least based on this results I won't.
QUOTE
I do not believe that there is such a total dearth of competence in resrved candidates - I am talking from my own observations - I have seen numerous resrved candidates who passed out of IITs and IIMs successfully and made it big in the corporate world
Nor do I and my observation is similar. I believe people are smart/competent/hardworking etc... because of who he or she is. Not because he's from whatever caste/tribe/race. Argument (idelogical/philosophical) is not against the individual, but the system that's trying to divide Indians.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 10 2004, 04:15 PM
Viren, Lets summarise what we are saying here. Agreements : (1) Meritocracy is the best. (2) There will be a definite backlash from people who dont benefit from reservations. (3) There will be productivity loss for businesses. (4) There will be artificial labour shortages if cos are forced to employ a certain percentage from SC/ST. (5) Longer term (a few decades) we would all like to see all kind of populist measures to go. (6) Anything else ? Lets forget about these points. We are all in total agreement here. Disagreement : Short term there should/shouldnt be any kind of reservations in pvt sector. You and some others say there should not be any - period. Others amongst us say the only way one can achieve the long term goal of meritocracy is thru a temporary implementation of pvt sector reservations - because we dont have the numbers - the best we can do is direct in a direction that it encourages people to reject populist measures while at the same time help people who are in need of this. So if we can come up with a scheme that helps people in need in short term while its got built in measures so that its better for beneficiaries to go the merit route then we will all be in agreement. Right ? PS : You might be right about Andhra farmers. But my guess is that the only reason something is being done is because of the numbers (votes) not because of any genuine sympathy.
Posted by: Viren Jun 10 2004, 07:22 PM
rajesh: This thread was pretty much sunk to the bottom of the pile around the 3rd week of March. Around mid-May election results time, the thread came back to life. What has changed? Is there any outrage across any section of the general public stating that whatever we have is not working and more is needed? Some elected fool high with new found power shot off his mouth and here we are trying to accomodate him without asking why. That's the real issue.
Posted by: kautilya Jun 10 2004, 08:11 PM
Viren, Believe me, as far as I can see, this issue is going to be put in endless committes and study groups, in other words shelved. So, this thread is also going to die down in a few days at the most.
Posted by: Bhootnath Jun 11 2004, 06:10 AM
Hello forumites Good posts here, how ever let us keep onething in mind there is undeniable need to work out temper prff procedures to uplift ppl. Otherwise everything is useless.
Posted by: Bhootnath Jun 11 2004, 06:11 AM
oops shld be read "temper proof procedures"
Posted by: Viren Jun 11 2004, 08:46 AM
QUOTE (kautilya @ Jun 10 2004, 11:11 PM)
Viren, Believe me, as far as I can see, this issue is going to be put in endless committes and study groups, in other words shelved. So, this thread is also going to die down in a few days at the most.
Thread has to be active because of the discussion we like to have on issues. I was merely pointing to our politicians raking up issues where non exists and we following it gently like a sheep. On page five of this thread we have :
QUOTE
"YS RajaSekhar Reddy, Andhra CM has ordered the officials to recognize Muslims as BCs and support them with various welfare programmes. He said that 5% reservations should be provided to Muslims in all such welfare programmes
No come on - can it get any crazier? What about muslims in say TN or Maharashtra or Rajashthan? Then we can say - hey why not other minorites too? We've got to start questioning the real motives of the policies being forced down.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 11 2004, 09:18 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jun 11 2004, 07:52 AM)
Some elected fool high with new found power shot off his mouth and here we are trying to accomodate him without asking why.
Viren, Dont we know the answer to "why" ? The fool(s) got elected on such platforms ? Real issues : (1) India aint shining for a lot of people. Thats the perception atleast. (2) Given the assumption that the competition is capitalising on this and is crazy enough to not care what kind of damage that is going to cause to the country - how do we minimise the damage and turn it into a good opp to capture some mindshare. There is one other point where you/Kautilya and i differ. You think this (reservations) can be avoided. I think it is inevitable. If not today then some time later. Regards.. PS : am going to be away for wknd so might not able to respond until next week.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 11 2004, 02:01 PM
ABVP activists stage dharna Staff Reporter/ Lucknow The Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) staged a dharna at the Lucknow University on Friday. ABVP member and LU Students' Union general secretary Shiv Bhushan Singh said that their main demand was provision of scholarships to upper caste students living below the poverty line from the current session. The ABVP also demanded that the university fee be rolled back to the level prevalent in 1995, 25 per cent increase in seats in graduate and post-graduate courses, implementation of the announcement regarding free education to girls in universities and degree colleges from the current academic session. Among those who participated in the dharna included Vijay Kumar Singh `Tintu', Indresh Mishra `Shintu', Vinod Kumar Tripathi and others. LU Notice: Director of Under-graduate Admissions, UD Mishra said that the following subject combinations were not permitted in BA-1. 1- Ancient Indian History, Asian Culture, History and Arab Culture. 2- Arabic and Arab Culture, 3- Sociology and Social Work. 4- Psychology and Education. 5- History and Ancient Indian History.
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 12 2004, 12:34 PM
Dailypioneer An article by Dalit Journalist Chandrabhan Prasad on private sector reservations Myths about private sector reservation The Congress' "national level dialogue" slogan, and the Maharashtra government's legislation on job reservations in the private sector have infused new blood and hope among the unemployed Dalit youth. Many senior citizens of the community are Dalits are elated. And why not? The Dalits' legitimate right to reservations goes beyond the realm of the government sector. How can the private sector justify its existence without adhering to the objectives of the Indian Republic, which insists on restructuring Indian society on the lines of justice? The day India's bourgeoisie allows itself to be persuaded to comply with the Republic's objectives, half of India's social tensions would wither away. What is, however, missing in this euphoria over "private sector reservation", is the limitation of the "emancipatory" role these jobs can play. According to the Union Ministry of Labour (1999), the total work force in the organised private sector was 86.98 lakh or close to nine million. At a conservative estimate, low skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled workers add up to more than three-fourths of the workforce of the Indian private sector. The Dalits may be having a sizable presence here which is proportionately more than their share of the national population. Thus, in effect, the Dalits' claim can be located in some two million white collar jobs - their share through reservations being about five lakh. These are the jobs (supervisors, clerks, professionals and managers) where the Dalit presence is likely to be too little to write home about. The current position, insofar as these five lakh jobs is concerned, is that they are already taken by non-Dalits. Will the private sector, if it abides by the policy of reservations, calculate the backlog and fill the vacancies? Well, the government of India has not been able to calculate the backlog vacancies for even primary level teaching positions in central schools. So it would be far fetched to expect the private sector to excel in terms of filling the Dalit quota where even the government has failed. What can be expected from the private sector is that when it comes to making new appointments, the share of the Dalits should not be overlooked. The number of such vacancies would easily run into a few thousand in the best of times. If we explore the business area, as we have been advocating, and which has been dramatically removed by the Congress coalition, we find an altogether a different scenario. By September 2003, there were 4,200 licensed liquor shops in Maharashtra. If the Sushil Shinde government is really honest in empowering the Dalits, it can allot 22.5 per cent of the licenses to Dalits, which comes to close to a thousand. These 1,000-odd Dalits liquor shop owners can earn more than an equal number of IAS officers. In addition, each Dalit liquor shop owner can give additional employment to at least five other people to run his business. Andhra Pradesh has 75,000 licensed liquor shops. If the present Reddy governmt is serious on Dalit issues, it can allot about 1,700 liquor shops to Andhra Dalits. Similarly, the PWD, Irrigation and Municipal departments farm out construction projects worth tens of millions in construction to private contractors. Even if the smaller contracts, which run into a few lakh each, are reserved for Dalit contractors, thousands of Dalits in each state can become economically powerful. So is the case with the Department of Health, where hospitals buy medicines worth several crore annually. If a proportion of such purchases is set aside for Dalit chemists, hundreds of Dalits in each state can rake in big money. The Agra Dalits were the first to enter into manufacturing and made big money. Many turned into millionaires by supplying shoes and belts to the British army during World War II. That continued after Independence as well. Agra became the centre of the Dalit movement in northern India. By the 1970's or so, non-Dalit traders entered the field. They began to bag Army tenders by buying in bulk from Dalit manufacturers. Slowly, they themselves became manufacturers, forcing the Dalits to retreat. Dalits now supply raw material to non-Dalit manufacturers. Why can't the Manmohan Singh government revive the policy and set aside a portion of the Armed Forces' requirements to the Dalits? The million-strong Indian Army and paramilitary and police buy shoes and belts worth several hundred crore every year. All the above measures put neither any extra-financial pressure on the treasury nor require any legislative action. The public sector oil companies reserve 22.5 per cent of their petrol, diesel, kerosene and LPG dealership for the Dalits. All the nine PSUs could stimulate employment for lakhs of Dalits by introducing Supplier-Dealership diversity for Dalits even in the areas of office equipment, electrical gadgets and furniture. Sadly though, during its earlier four-and-a-half decades of rule, the Congress couldn't envision creating a strong business class from within the community. And now, when the opportunity came, it has betrayed the Dalits in a most ruthless manner. Now the party leadership is selling the "private sector job quota" dream, a repeat of the previous experience when it did not allow Dalits to move beyond government jobs and become partners in the market economy. An economically strong Dalit community can be a headache for the mainstream polity, this they understand better than the Dalits.
Posted by: Viren Jun 12 2004, 12:49 PM
QUOTE (rajesh_g @ Jun 11 2004, 12:18 PM)
There is one other point where you/Kautilya and i differ. You think this (reservations) can be avoided. I think it is inevitable.
rajesh_g: You may be right and I hold a open mind to listen to both sides. I've not seen much evidence to believe the claim that it's inevitable or even otherwise. Whenever I hear about reservations, all I can recall is how the system was abused in metros or how kids were immolating themselves in Delhi during during Mandal agitation.
Posted by: Viren Jun 12 2004, 12:51 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Jun 12 2004, 03:34 PM)
The Agra Dalits were the first to enter into manufacturing and made big money. Many turned into millionaires by supplying shoes and belts to the British army during World War II.
Was there reservations/quotas prior to '47?
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 12 2004, 02:43 PM
Yes in legislature and govt jobs for dalits
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 12 2004, 06:23 PM
In South India, under the anti-brahmin movement, there were anti-brahmin quotas since at least 1920 and Ambedkar in his pact with Gandhi in 1932, got some Dalit quotas The british patronised the anti-brahmin movement Toadies of the british got titles such as Rao Bahadur, Raja, etc Lots of DMK leaders parents used to have these titles In effect in South India since at least 1920, there has been an anti-brahmin quota which originally started at around 30% and by 1980 went up to 69% Brahmins are 3% of south India and non-militant
Posted by: jay_dk Jun 12 2004, 09:32 PM
Guys, I think INDIA is NOT for people who believe in merit but freebies, every one is got used to getting stuff free. I doubt the people who were thinking of going back to india even if they had a choice will go back b'cosue of this kind of fuc* policies.In fact more poeple will come out of india at the very first chance they'll get it . I have given up on india, but don't have any option but to go back so far. I think India need more federal autonamy, where the central gov only looks for defence/finance/foriegn and rest leaves with state govts (Like US) every stae can have their own flags along with the Indian Union flag, that way marathi/gujarati/bangali/tamil/UP/Bihari can live the way they want. I don't care if the UP/Bihar gov. reservs 100% for mullas, implement sharia if they want. Let the companies go to the states where they can find profit/good labour laws. I'm very frustated and feeling sad about the current state of India but can't help it but can't help thinking about it sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif
Posted by: acharya Jun 15 2004, 07:41 PM
I think India need more federal autonamy, where the central gov only looks for defence/finance/foriegn and rest leaves with state govts (Like US) every stae can have their own flags along with the Indian Union flag, that way marathi/gujarati/bangali/tamil/UP/Bihari can live the way they want. I don't care if the UP/Bihar gov. reservs 100% for mullas, implement sharia if they want. -- Bigger GDP and growth rate wull change things but this is not the way to go/. Worldview and national/civilizational idenity should remain the same.
Posted by: Bhootnath Jun 16 2004, 06:05 AM
> every stae can have their own flags along with the Indian Union flag Did I miss a scientific breakthrough , since when having a flag solves any problem ? > that way marathi/gujarati/bangali/tamil/UP/Bihari can live the way they want And they still do , dont they ? > I don't care if the UP/Bihar gov. reservs 100% for mullas, implement sharia if they want Well then why shld ppl care abt your opinion then. Are you okay if gujarat govt forces sharia as in saudi on Muslims ? > I think India need more federal autonamy. CM Naidu ( much hailed! and rightly so but only in some ways ) got so much funds, grants, freebies from Centre, had he done something with that stuff, he wouldnt have lost. What will happen when they will have to raise their own resources and truly justfy their expenses ? This "autonomy" as of now is a bogey .. more autonomy means give us more funds and dont ask for accountability. and by no means Central ppl are angels. there are none. > Worldview and national/civilizational idenity should remain the same. Kaushal has said something similar before , what he said was "Many a problem exists because of LACK of National/Civilixational identity/focus"
Posted by: Mudy Jun 16 2004, 01:27 PM
BJP accuses Centre of forcibly reversing NDA Govt's decisions Pioneer News Service/ New Delhi Training its guns on the Congress regime for reversing the decisions of the NDA Government, Bharatiya Janata Party on Wednesday accused the UPA Government of trying to disband the commission of economically backward classes and forcing its chairman to resign. The reaction came after The Pioneer reported the Government decision to seek the resignation of the commission's chairman. "The Central Government is trying to disband the commission and its chairman BP Singh has forcibly been made to resign," party vice-president and spokesman Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi told reporters. He said the NDA Government had set up the commission by a Cabinet decision on January four, this year following a country-wide demand and with a view to look into the possibility of providing reservations in Government jobs to the economically backward among the forward castes and those sections uncovered by the reservation policy.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 16 2004, 01:31 PM
QUOTE
Did I miss a scientific breakthrough , since when having a flag solves any problem ?
In US every state have their own flag. And US flag honor them with one star. Every state have their own laws but they have to follow federal law also. Greater autonomy will solve local issue. In place of national budget which decides every state future, make state more accountable by autonomy.
Posted by: Viren Jun 16 2004, 01:50 PM
QUOTE (Bhootnath @ Jun 16 2004, 09:05 AM)
This "autonomy" as of now is a bogey .. more autonomy means give us more funds and dont ask for accountability.
Example: Kashmir. I think it was Rajeev Srinivasan or Arindam who had lighted this issue with figures at Rediff
Posted by: jay_dk Jun 16 2004, 05:41 PM
QUOTE
This "autonomy" as of now is a bogey .. more autonomy means give us more funds and dont ask for accountability.
. When I said "Autonomy" I did not meant more money/NO Accounting/Succession, there has too be accountablility and every state has to be equal. What I has in mind was US type federal strucutre.
Posted by: jay_dk Jun 16 2004, 05:54 PM
QUOTE
This "autonomy" as of now is a bogey .. more autonomy means give us more funds and dont ask for accountability.
. When I said "Autonomy" I did not meant more money/NO Accounting/Succession, there has too be accountablility and every state has to be equal. What I has in mind was US type federal strucutre. Since We (All Indian States) follow different Indeaologies - Bangla/Kerla (Communism), Maharastra (Socialism/Capitalism) , Gujarat (Communalism ;-), Capitalism) , UP/Bihar (????these are confuse lots),etc etc, More Autonamy will give all the staes enough space to practice whatever they follow but AS INDIANS. We are More like EU , Hindus with different cultures.Hindues are NOT known to be united on the basis on Religion, but as cultural group YES we are ONE as Maharastrians/Tamil/Telgu/Gujrati. Unless some one has magic formula which will unite us on the basis of religion NOTHING LIKE IT. and sure it'll be labeled as COMMUNAL as per our great seculers. BJP tried doing the same they promoted Hindu culture/hindu tourist places with out abusing the otehr religion but they have branded as communal.I don't see a change in the Secular fundamantalists behaviour unles they bottom get whipped by some so called secular people (read mullahs).(I won't add chirstans even though they believe in One god are NOT that agressive or brain washed as Mullas are, just my thoughts)
Posted by: kautilya Jun 17 2004, 01:09 AM
If you notice the talk of reservations has died down in the newspapers. Nobody including politicians seem to be talking about it. Also, as posted in one of the previous news items, a committee has been formed to look into it. A committee in govt. parlance means nothing will happen for at least next 2-3 years, if it happens at all. My belief is that either nothing will happen, or an extremely harmless watered down act will be introduced, or a compromise will be made and social programs for improving the lot of backward castes will be started. The reason for this is very simple ---The govt. has realized that the day it declares this policy, the very next day the stock market will tank, exchange reserves will go down by a $100 billion or more in a few days, foreign companies will threaten to pull out their investments or freeze them or delay them. Also, people like Bajaj, Ambani etc. have told the govt. in no uncertain terms that they would shift a large part of their new investment to China and other countries if that happens, and also possibly cut down the existing investments. Also, as BPO jobs and IT jobs will be cut, the golden era where each college graduate can get a job in the bigger cities will abruptly end, which implies a mandal multiplied by 10. No govt. can afford this mayhem, when anybody can easily see that when VP singh did something similar with govt. jobs, he did not gain anything in terms of number of votes. By the way this will happen if it is done now, but because it seems like they will wait 2-3 years in the committee(if the govt. lasts that long), at that time it will be totally impossible to introduce such a law, because the Indian economy will be even further integrated into the global economy. So, if they even give a whiff of doing something like this 2-3 years from now, expect the above stated disaster multiplied by 5. Added Later Also, increasing influence of big business can be seen on the govt.. Ambanis, Malyas etc. all seem to be joining Rajya Sabha. India is getting into an era, where we will get the best govt. decisions that the money can buy. So, no need to worry about reservations. smile.gif P.S. by the way I don't want to get into a long drawn discussion here, but these are my feelings on the issue, and only time will show what really happens. Ofcourse we will have to wait 2-3 years at the current pace for the committee to come back with a decision. sleepysmileyanim.gif
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jun 17 2004, 04:53 AM
I would not be so optimistic The Mandal report was originally done in 1960 VP.Singh latched onto it in 1990 as a means to win casteist bloc votes
Posted by: Bhootnath Jun 17 2004, 06:49 AM
> In US every state have their own flag US is "a nation of mostly legal, educated & welcomed migrants" and I *suppose* they have diff value systems and attachments. In India if this flag crap is allowed, tomorrow my neighbour will want his flag and if denied talk abt human right, state suppression. Its a possible recipe for political disaster. > Greater autonomy will solve local issue. Give me an Indian example pls. A serious overhaul of civil services is the most effective solution. An example: Indian politician's fighting/sloganing capacity is truly amazing , but his intellectual capacity is very doubtful, Gulam Nabi Azad said yesterday while sitting in Delhi Metro train " When I was not a minister, I had apprehensions as to why spend so much money in one city , But today I feel satisfied" So untill one becomes *minister* who cares . Who cares, first DTC killed ppl , then worst kind of pvtistaion happened, RED-Line buses killed so many ppl that even Indian Media called it BLOOD-Line Buses, so BRAND change was forced , we had Blue Line buses ( eveyrthing else same ) .. ppl still died and Nabi Azad thought Metro idea was too much, excuse me this is the bloody ( sorry for the pun ..) capital of India. Focus shld be to produce more Shouries , Chidambarams, Pandas. So that there are good people when thss autonomy etc is thought abt. Other wise we will have Marriage Act of J&K everywhere . Do we want that ? > In place of national budget which decides every state future, make state more accountable by autonomy. > In place of national budget which decides every state future, make state more accountable by autonomy. States already have their budgets. How do you propose to do this "make state more accountable by autonomy." jay_dk > What I has in mind was US type federal strucutre. When we have only poor ppl going to McDonald for a "bite" , we will consider your "idea of India".
Posted by: Viren Jun 17 2004, 02:59 PM
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/18kp.htm
QUOTE
A good indication of how guilt-free minds are ticking on the subject was provided by N R Narayana Murthy three years ago. At the Indian CEO High Tech Council meet in Washington, DC, the Infosys chief mentor scoffed at suggestions for State-imposed diversity at the workplace. But the moment then Karnataka chief minister S M Krishna spoke his mind in its favour, Murthy did a complete about-turn. Yes, he said, reservations could be considered, but the criterion should be economic, not caste.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 18 2004, 09:48 PM
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_835347,0003.htm Strongly opposing the introduction of reservation in the IT industry, Infosys chief NR Narayanamurthy and former secretary to the Department of Electronics, N Vittal said reservation would kill the "golden goose" and lead to a decline in the quality of the IT sector. ..... Criticising the new Cong-led Government's talk of job reservation in the private sector, Vittal said: “Reservation is likely to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs because it is merit alone that counts in the IT sector." He added: “The Government's policy of giving priority to seniority over merit has led to an overall decline in quality.” Narayana Murthy also opposed the introduction of any kind of sops for the IT industry. He said once the Government takes care of primary education for all in the country, quality would automatically go up and reservation would be redundant then. "It is a shame that in this country we take pride in calling ourselves backward," he said in an apparent reference to the job reservation for backward castes. “Once education is provided to all, there won’t be any need for the reservation,” he added. Commenting on why IT has failed to make an impact on the masses and hence, been responsible for the defeat of pro-IT Governments of Chandrababu Naidu in Andhra Pradesh and SM Krishna in Karnataka, Vittal said: “There is a disconnect between policy and implementation. While IT is for transparency, government is for secrecy. While IT is for merit, government is for seniority...therefore, at the operational level quality suffers.”
Posted by: Bhootnath Jun 19 2004, 07:03 AM
> Narayana Murthy also opposed the introduction of any kind of sops for the IT industry What hell is DDM talking abt , IT industry already has lots of sops. > Once education is provided to all, there wont be any need for the reservation, he added. NM is just like any other businessman. Only Profit.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jun 21 2004, 03:22 PM
http://in.rediff.com/money/2004/jun/21cii1.htm
QUOTE
Job quota mere patchwork: CII June 21, 2004 16:52 IST Virtually opposing any move to introduce reservation in the private sector, the CII on Monday said that rather than adopting a 'patchwork' approach, the government should work to upgrade skills of the weaker sections of the society to make them employable. "Merit cannot be compromised. We are not quiet (on the issue of reservation in private sector). We cannot afford to compromise competitiveness in corporates. Rather than a patchwork approach, the government should try to upgrade skills of the backward section," Confederation of Indian Industry President Sunil Kant Munjal said. CII was also trying to help the weaker sections of the society by providing them requisite skills so that they have competitive edge in the job market, he said. "We already have initiated a dialogue with government on the issue but merit will not be compromised," Munjal said. It was unfortunate that many polytechnics were still providing training in areas like typing which has become totally obsolete now, CII said. Counselling and coaching should be provided to the downtrodden to make them confident rather than provide reservation, he said
Posted by: acharya Jun 25 2004, 05:54 PM
http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-sharath200604.htm By S Sharath
QUOTE
For example, see this corporate strategy which may induce corporates to do what is required. 1)Abolish all other tax exemptions. 2)Provide up to 5% tax reduction for corporates implementing affirmative action. A possible matrix may read thus: - For each 10% addition of backward castes to total recruitment for the year, provide a tax relief of 1%. For dalits, each 10% must attract 2% tax relief. The same may be extended to women and other weak sections. - Cap the tax relief at 5% corresponding to 50% addition of backward castes per year. This means a company recruiting at least half of its employees from backward sections will be eligible for full 5% tax reduction. 3)Monitor the program over a period of 5 years to ascertain the progress and introduce changes as necessary. If profit is the main goal, then corporates should jump at this offer. If they are apprehensive that merit shall be tampered with, they are free to abandon the 5% tax cut. If they really believe merit is sparse in the 80% of Indian population, they are free to recruit from the rest 20%. But I don't think they will. The reason being merit is not so sparse among backward castes and the profit they can reap is far more than any other considerations. For example, think of the case of Reliance Industries, which can save a massive 1000 crore rupees per year if they implement the scheme. An Infosys can save more than 100 core per year. Then it gives rise to the corporates pursuing merit amongst backward sections, potently implementing affirmative action on their own. I wonder if Mr. Narayana Murthy will sing the same tune after this is enacted!.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 25 2004, 06:44 PM
QUOTE
For example, think of the case of Reliance Industries, which can save a massive 1000 crore rupees per year if they implement the scheme. An Infosys can save more than 100 core per year
It is interesting to read commies imagination.
Posted by: Mudy Jun 28 2004, 08:51 AM
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story3%2Etxt&counter_img=3?headline=Quota~for~SCs~in~private~sector~in~files~again Subodh Ghildiyal/ New Delhi Amid the hullabaloo over job quota for Scheduled Castes in private sector, the biggest irony of dalit politics lies hidden in the files of Uttar Pradesh secretariat. It was the Mayawati-led state government which examined and subsequently rejected the proposal for reservation in private jobs. In the process, it probably became the first state government to officially explore the idea and reject it. That Mayawati, a dalit icon, had to preside over such a decision is significant. The proposal was mooted by Chief Minister Mayawati when she came to power in 2002 with the help of Bharatiya Janata Party. Possibly enthused by the Bhopal declaration on dalits, she announced reservation for dalits and tribals in liquor shops auctioned by state and PDS outlets allotted by the government. It was accompanied by Mayawati calling for dalit quota in private sector. Highly-placed sources said the announcement in mid-2002 was followed by a proposal initiated by the Chief Minister's Office. But the subject hit a roadblock when it reached the Legal department. Principal Secretary, law, struck down the idea. Sources said AB Shukla reportedly noted on the file that it was not "legally possible" to dictate to private sector to reserve jobs on caste or other considerations. One of the arguments given by the legal department was that the constitutional provisions did not give liberty to interfere in trade and business established on private capital and based on money and work. Realising the file would have been given the desired importance as it was Mayawati's proposal, the CM secretariat did not return the file. The issue died there and then. Mayawati's call, first of its kind from a political leader in power, led to a strong debate and it was generally feared that it will push the private sector away from an already struggling UP. But nothing was heard as the file was lost in the secretariat shelves. The CM never again spoke on the issue. With the sensitive subject finding a prominent mention in the United Progressive Alliance discourse and kicking off a national debate, Mayawati has maintained a silence which is baffling. Sonia Gandhi has articulated the Congress position by asking for such an caste-based arrangement in the private sector. But the Left Front, a principal proponent of the idea besides the Congress, realises that if Mayawati could not push through the idea, it could be not so easy. As Debabrata Biswas, chief of All India Forward Bloc, said, "Reservation in private sector will come at a later stage. What is needed immediately is to strengthen the public sector and create employment opportunities." ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Karkala Joishy Jul 3 2004, 10:12 AM
Whats up with MS? Is he trying to become another VP Singh?? furious.gif This is one of the downsides of having a minority as the main man. He begins to think that he has to redeem himself and that he is the PM only of his community and not the whole of India. India has gotten to where it is purely through the hard work of those who made it on merit. Why does he want religion based reservations? What about Hindus in "Hindustan"? Why would someone like myself be discriminated against for being a Hindu in India?? http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/764143.cms NEW DELHI: Pained by the low representation of Muslims and other minorities in many walks of life, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday mooted quotas in education and employment, particularly for the economically weaker sections among them. This is among the measures to be considered by a national commission to be set up for uplift of the socially and economically backward sections among religious and linguistic minorities, the Prime Minister said in his inaugural address at the Conference on Minority Welfare and Education here. Another commission would directly affiliate minority-run professional institutions to central universities in a bid to upgrade their standards, the prime minister said. He also promised additional funds for the National Minorities Development and Finance Corporation and steps for the promotion of Urdu. "I am distressed by the low representation of minorities, particularly Muslims...in the public and private sector," the Prime Minister said. He said his United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government's priority was to empower minorities socially and economically through greater attention to education and employment. "On our part, I can assure you of the commitment of the UPA government and our supporting parties in the Left in systematically removing barriers that prevent empowerment of minority communities, as well as among the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes," Manmohan Singh said. The proposed National Commission for Minority Educational Institutions would go a long way in ensuring government's plans to promote modern and technical education among all minority communities. The Prime Minister mooted collaboration between the government and minority-run educational institutions for effective delivery of welfare schemes to the targeted population. "Community-based educational institutions can be effectively used as a means to promote a number of other important social objectives, such as provision of primary health care and family welfare. "These institutions can also be used to promote the delivery of better services by the state to segments of the population that otherwise are harder to reach, particularly women and the girl child among minorities," he said. Home Minister Shivraj Patil, Human Resources Development Minister Arjun Singh, representatives of political parties and religious and community leaders were among those who attended the daylong conference.
Posted by: rajesh_g Jul 3 2004, 10:29 AM
Dont we already have a reservation thread ? Shouldnt we merge this thread with that ? Re. linguistic minorities, yes us gujjus are in minority in armed forces. I say we need reservations for gujjus in armed forces. biggrin.gif Seriously though, this move if indeed carried out should strengthen NDA - if they slap themselves into sense, that is.. rolleyes.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jul 3 2004, 10:59 AM
50% reservation for woman is must. Most oppressed section of society on earth. Lot of states are busy in ethnic cleansing. As some are proposing for one child policy, secret plan to eliminate female from India.
Posted by: vijayk Jul 3 2004, 02:21 PM
How do you take India forward? Instead of aiming for high growth in maufacturing, service sector and creating bundle of opportunities the CONmen and garbage COMMIES have a strategy which our beloved WEEPYSingh patented a while ago. Reservations. Right! Do everything to cut privatization/investments, encourage incompetent publci sector/unions and reduce opportunities and let people fight each other for crumbles. While 100 people are fighting for 5 jobs out of which 3 are reserved, CONmen and garbage COMMIES can raise more caste/religious bogies and hold on to vote banks for another 50 years and destroy India completely. I wish BJP/NDA see this and get tehir act together. Tell that moronic A-Holes like VHP to shut their mouths up and concentrate on agitational polictics. These VHP garbage does nothing but talk NONsense. They should just shut up like right wing orgainzations in the US and work quietly fo rhte upliftment of hindus like RSS does. They can influence the BJP Govt on policies by keeping their mouths shut publicly instead of spewing VENOm against minorties which is COUNTER productive. BJP/NDA should get tehir act together and start campaign agianst COMMIE/CONmen nexus to destroy India by pitting muslims against hindus. COMMIEs and CONmen really would like to see more riots in India to maintain their votebanks and they will keep killing India economically by reducing growth and dividing people on religious/communal level using any divisive policies such as reserveation, minority education blha blha ... Advani/Vajpayee should focus their energies to campaign on a set of issues and destabilise this destructive UPA as soon as possible. Otherwise, India will be in great danger of slipping economically back into 4% growth.
Posted by: vijayk Jul 3 2004, 02:31 PM
QUOTE (Karkala Joishy @ Jul 3 2004, 10:42 PM)
Whats up with MS? Is he trying to become another VP Singh?? furious.gif This is one of the downsides of having a minority as the main man. He begins to think that he has to redeem himself and that he is the PM only of his community and not the whole of India. India has gotten to where it is purely through the hard work of those who made it on merit. Why does he want religion based reservations? What about Hindus in "Hindustan"? Why would someone like myself be discriminated against for being a Hindu in India?? http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/764143.cms
MMS is not being a minority PM ! He is following the orders of Italian WOman and her SON. They want to get back UP and Bihar. They want to get the muslim votebank and if possible SC/ST votebank to get the absolute power. MMS is being simply her peon. That is why SONIA loves MMS. She hated PVNR because he did not take her orders and create a muslim voteback for GANDU DIE-NASTY. So she chose MMS to do that so that people can vote her son as future PM with absolute majority. If she had to do this, she knows a lot of hindus and upper caste people will start agitation like they adid against Mandal reservations by WEEPYsingh. People might have questioned her Italian origin also and her motives in splitting the country on religious line. I hope NDA/BJP realize what is going on come up with a plan to start agitations and destabilise this CONmen as soon as possible.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 3 2004, 03:48 PM
What about reservation to followerss of Jainism, Buddhism, Brahamkumari, Arya Samaji, Sikh, Lord Hanuman, Maa Sita, Maa Meera, Lord Krishana, Lord Ram ........
Posted by: Mudy Jul 4 2004, 09:13 AM
http://www.hindu.com/2004/07/04/stories/2004070400800100.htm
QUOTE
The two Commissions had been promised in the Common Minimum Programme (CMP) of the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) Government to "systematically remove barriers that prevent the empowerment of the minority communities, as well as the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes." Steps will also be taken to promote the Urdu language.
thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif Why there is no efforts to revive Sanskrit? Worst moron is running country with puppet joker as PM.
Posted by: Nikhil Jul 4 2004, 09:25 AM
Mudy.. dont worry..these things will come and hit them back, let them make a Muslim as Deputy-PM, muslim quota in jobs, reservation in private sector, and all other things, let them screw up the country, only than our dork janta will wake up from their chalta hai attitude. So let congress make all the mess it wants, at the end its for our good cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jul 4 2004, 09:29 AM
QUOTE
So let congress make all the mess it wants, at the end its for our good
Don't underestimate these swines, with just 144 seats they are screwing whole country and in case they last for another 1 year, damage will be unpresedent.
Posted by: Nikhil Jul 4 2004, 10:58 AM
yaar.. let them do what they want, its not just their fault, they are in power cos our idiot dork janta voted them into power, so regardless of anything we have to listen to their daily crap and bs, i say let them have reservations in everything, even in hotel rooms, road side dhabas, bus (left side seats for women, right side for SC/ST/Muslims, hindus can tk the standing area), on roads, electricity (if u have a muslim name you will get 50% discout rate) and so on.. It will freaking teach a good lesson to our own community, or dork hindus, they are the biggest backstabbers and they should be taught a lesson for voting congress in center. Once they get the lesson, they will know for next time who to vote for.
Posted by: Viren Jul 6 2004, 07:11 AM
http://sify.com/news/othernews/fullstory.php?id=13509582
QUOTE
Amid the hullabaloo over job quota for Scheduled Castes in the private sector, the biggest irony of Dalit politics lies hidden in the files of the Uttar Pradesh Secretariat. It was the Mayawati-led State Government which examined, and subsequently rejected the proposal for reservation in private jobs. In the process, it probably became the first State Government to officially explore the idea and reject it. That Mayawati, a Dalit icon, should preside over such a decision, is significant
Posted by: k.ram Jul 12 2004, 01:56 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jul 12 2004, 11:45 PM)
Sorry can't see it there. We'll see it by tomorrow I guess. Check your PM on the other thing. Thx.
Muslims accorded BC E status http://www.deccan.com/city/cityNews.asp?#Muslims%20accorded%20BC%20E% 20status Hyderabad, July 12: The State government on Monday issued orders giving Backward Class status to Muslims and created a special category of "Backward Classes under Category E". The order will come into force with immediate effect.
Posted by: Sunder Jul 12 2004, 02:01 PM
QUOTE (k.ram @ Jul 13 2004, 02:26 AM)
QUOTE (Viren @ Jul 12 2004, 11:45 PM)
Sorry can't see it there. We'll see it by tomorrow I guess. Check your PM on the other thing. Thx.
Muslims accorded BC E status http://www.deccan.com/city/cityNews.asp?#Muslims%20accorded%20BC%20E% 20status Hyderabad, July 12: The State government on Monday issued orders giving Backward Class status to Muslims and created a special category of "Backward Classes under Category E". The order will come into force with immediate effect.
This definitely is outrageous.. Hyderabad, July 12: The State government on Monday issued orders giving Backward Class status to Muslims and created a special category of “Backward Classes under Category E”. The order will come into force with immediate effect. The State government will also provide 5 per cent reservation for Muslims in all educational institutions and employment in the State over and above the reservations presently provided to the backward classes. Accepting the recommendations of the Commissionerate of Minorities Welfare, the GO Ms No. 33 states, “Muslims in the State will be provided with 5 per cent reservations in educational institutions and employment in the state, over and above the reservations presently provided to the backward Classes and be treated as Backward Classes under category E in addition to the existing A,B,C,D categories.” The orders come on the basis of an in-depth study on the socio-economic and educational conditions of Muslim community in the state by the Commiss-ionerate. The study focussed on the living conditions, occupational profile, income and literacy levels and participating in social activities. According to 1991 census the population of Minorities in the AP, Muslims make up a 8.5 per cent of total population. Minister for Information and Public Relations, Mohammed Shabbir Ali said the government had fulfilled its electoral promise of providing BC status to Muslims and reservations. He said, it was a historic decision which would help the Muslim community.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 12 2004, 04:59 PM
After ruling India for 800 years they are still backward, I thought they claim Hinduism is backward religion. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif Congrats to citizens of AP by electing congress.
Posted by: Ashish Jul 13 2004, 03:23 AM
Hi all, Read this news item.. http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEA20040712230957&Page=A&Title=Southern+News+-+Andhra+Pradesh&Topic=0 In my views, this is the most heartning news of the month...and the first time (that I know of) Reservation based on Religion Can anyone reach Mr. Reddy....and tell him to do reservations for people whose name starts with 'a' ? Ashish
QUOTE
AP govt orders 5% reservation for Muslims in govt jobs HYDERABAD: In a significant policy initiative, the Andhra Pradesh government on Monday issued an order providing for five per cent reservation for Muslims in government jobs and admissions in educational institutions. The order provides for inclusion of Muslims in backward classes. Currently, as per the Supreme Court ruling in the Mandal case, only certain sections of Muslims classified as “socially and economically backward classes'' get the benefit of reservation. The decision is in tune with the new Congress government's promise to extend reservation for the Muslim community in government jobs and education institutions. The order - which is open to legal challenge - was issued after a comprehensive report prepared by the Commissionerate of Minorities Welfare, which conducted a study on the living conditions, occupations and educational status of the Muslim community in the state. The government had earlier indicated that it would formulate a legislation on reservation for Muslims. But it has been decided to issue a government order in view of the approaching admissions in professional medical and engineering colleges, state Minorities Welfare Minister Fareeduddin said.
Moderator(s): in case this is being discussed anywhere else, please delete this post and direct me the place.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 13 2004, 01:07 PM
VHP opposes reservation to Muslims July 13, 2004 Raipur: The Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) has strongly opposed the Andhra Pradesh Government's decision to give five per cent reservation to Muslims and demanded the order should be withdrawn immediately. "The Andhra Pradesh Government has not only violated the Constitution but also the direction of the Supreme Court while giving five per cent reservation to Muslims," VHP International General Secretary Praveen Togadia said. The decision is not only unconstitutional but also illegal hence VHP would oppose it till it was withdrawn, Togadia said. The decision is against the Constitution as reservation on religion basis was rejected immediately after independence and the apex court has also declared that reservation should not be more than 50 per cent. "The Britishers 1906 decision for religion based electorate had given birth to Pakistan and this five per cent reservation to Muslims would also help some people to materialise their dream of making Andhra another Pakistan," he claimed. By giving Muslims backward status the Andhra Government had put them at par with the status enjoyed by the scheduled caste and scheduled tribes, Togadia said. The state government should instead give reservation to farmers who are committing suicide or poor Hindus or women, he added. ww1.mid-day.com/news/nati.../87669.htm
Posted by: vijayk Jul 13 2004, 03:24 PM
AP thing is outrageous. In an era where the GOvts are supposed to work towards creating an environment where growth creates thousands of opportunities, AP govt is going backwards first by going populist way, ignoring economic growth and opportunities and now creates more reservations to divide the society. This won't stop here. Now UP, Bihar, Maharastra and every COngress/secular Govt. will start this to gather votes. May be this will gather enough momentum to unite real secular minded people to throw out Congress and bring back NDA.
Posted by: acharya Jul 13 2004, 03:47 PM
Narendran panel report: IUML toughens stand By Girish Menon THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, JULY 13. The Indian Union Muslim League (IUML) is trying to resurrect its Backward Class plank in its search for a methodology for the implementation of the Narendran Commission report. The second largest party in the ruling United Democratic Front (UDF) appears to have cautiously shifted its stand on the implementation of the contentious report, converting the issue as a Backward Class problem rather than one confined to the Muslim community alone. The contours of the party's perspectives became evident at an informal chat that the party State general secretary and Industries Minister, P.K. Kunhalikutty, had with mediapersons here today. He said the issue related to the implementation of the Narendran Commission report was connected to the denial of adequate representation for five to eight Backward Class communities, which had not got sufficient representation in government service. The IUML has always considered the reservation issue as an ideological and fundamental one. The party would not hesitate to take a firm stand and is not prepared for any sacrifice on an issue affecting the Backward Classes. The Minister said that several other communities such as the Dheevaras, Vishwakarmas, Latin Catholics and converted Christians did not have sufficient representation and the Muslim community was the worst-affected. Mr. Kunhalikutty said: "Our responsibility is twofold now that the IUML is in power. While in power, we are committed to ensuring that all backward sections get what is legitimately due to them." He said that his party's conciliatory stand should not be considered as a weakness and the legitimate demands could not be ignored. Asked whether the IUML was trying to recreate the Backward Class front it had promoted in the 1990s, he said his party would be in the forefront to get the legitimate demands conceded and being in power was no obstacle to floating such a formulation. Asked for his reaction on the KPCC decision to appoint a sub-committee to study the Commission's report, he said his party had no complaint as the KPCC panel had been given a timeframe. In any case, there is no scope for any discussion on whether the Commission report should be implemented or not. Even the Opposition had favoured the implementation of the report. Mr. Kunhalikutty was not willing to comment on the stand of the Nair Service Society. He also admitted that his party's tone had changed since the Lok Sabha election defeat and it was not willing to wait any longer. He admitted that it would take time to implement the recommendations as the issue would have to be discussed in detail.
Posted by: Ashish Jul 13 2004, 09:48 PM
Hi All, I am sure the next State which is most likely to do it is going to be UP (where the muslim vote bank is the largest in any state of India)..and then there will no stopping to this in states whereever there are some muslim votes. furious.gif My views have come from the pro..muslim stand that SP/mulayam singh/amar singh have always taken...Read the menifesto of Samajwadi Party..in this news item where they clearly mension "reservation for muslims" http://sify.com/news_info/lspolls/manifestos/fullstory.php?id=13457879 I think we must do something..not that it will reverse the AP decision, the public at large and the elected representative must know the facts. Any ideas on what we IFers can do?..I am on for writing a letter to the offices of CM/PM/President ..and whoever Ashish
Posted by: muddur Jul 13 2004, 10:07 PM
If the VHP or RSS is serious about the Hindu rights, they should immediately file a lawsuite opposing the reservations based on religion. This is a blatant violation of Indian constitution. India should move towards becoming a secular nation not a communal nation tht does everything based on religion and caste. Socially the GOI is moving towards another disintegration of India by dividing Indians using the religion and caste based politics, this has to STOP an dthe right way to do it is via the SUPREME court.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 13 2004, 11:04 PM
Ashish, 82% Hindus of India voted these jokers, let them suffer, good lesson for them. Next step, they should dig a big hole and hide. If you see at this moment all top posts (Prez, PM, PMO) are held by non Hindus, even then every jack and harry cursing Hindus.
Posted by: Ashish Jul 13 2004, 11:38 PM
Mudy, I am one of the 82% , does that makes me responsible? sad.gif..and pleeese don't say the rest of the words (and delete if you can)..if I/we keep the attitude..we will continue to suffer maybe for centuries. ..and Don't put me in the hole, I don't like darkness smile.gif Hey Mudy and everyone else, I strongly suggest we do something please come up with ideas on what we should do, given that we are in a hole already (Help! throw me the rope ..pleeease) Ashish Red Alert : AP has done it UP will do it and the menifesto says 10% very clearly
Posted by: Krishna Jul 13 2004, 11:44 PM
Folks, Ever watch Bollywood movies? U know that poor guy / evil Mom-in-law / baniya / evil villain whom everyone just loves to hate. The audience just doesn't hate them because they are bad, but because they are potrayed to be be bad. Now OTOH, you have the Hero whom everyone just loves, u know the guy who gets kicked by the villains, put into trouble by the evil baniya n' all that. Now WTH I'm blabbering about? blink.gif Well, I'm not sure exactly. unsure.gif But whatever little my 2½ lbs brain allows me to think is that Hinduism for so long has been hated so damn much that everyone either runs from it (the ones who are either Hindus or belong to religion - an ofshoot of Hindusim) or just loves to hate it. Hindusim is like that weak guy / Mom-in-law / baniya whom no one wants to associate with till it develops some muscles or starts getting potrayes as the Herrow. Once that happens, then and only then, would Hinduism rightly gain it's rightful place at the top and people who have been subha ka bhoola would come back during the sham time.
Posted by: vijayk Jul 14 2004, 05:08 AM
QUOTE (Ashish @ Jul 14 2004, 12:08 PM)
Mudy, I am one of the 82% , does that makes me responsible? sad.gif..and pleeese don't say the rest of the words (and delete if you can)..if I/we keep the attitude..we will continue to suffer maybe for centuries. ..and Don't put me in the hole, I don't like darkness smile.gif Hey Mudy and everyone else, I strongly suggest we do something please come up with ideas on what we should do, given that we are in a hole already (Help! throw me the rope ..pleeease) Ashish Red Alert : AP has done it UP will do it and the menifesto says 10% very clearly
Ashish Every one who voted for CONmen and COMMIEs are partly responsible for this. This is the tragedy in India. We need accountability form our leaders. Nobody clearly reads a manifesto. They don't believe that the party would follow the manifesto. I saw the point about reservation to Muslims in CON(gress) party manifesto, I argued with freinds and family how dangerous it is for the country and how it will put the country back to chaos. They all dismissed it with contempt and laughed off my face and said no one reads or follows manifesto and I am crazy to do that. So they know that CONmen are COMMIES are liars but they supported them anyway. Now that AP Govt. did it, UPA put it in CMP, Kalam mentioned it in his parliament speech and other sates especially UP, Bihar will follow, all my family members and friends who voted for CON(gress)men are perturbed. Now it is TOO late. If this reservation peacefully without any LEGAL problems, I assure you that CON(gress)men and COMMIES will do this at national level and in PRIVATE sector too. Mark my words! It is going to happen 1 or 2 YEARS before next elections. I hope someone will file a case in AP High court and challenge this. If BJP keeps silence and do not agitate against this, they will be HISTORY.
Posted by: k.ram Jul 14 2004, 05:36 AM
http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?msid=777236
Posted by: Viren Jul 14 2004, 08:33 AM
Anyone from Andhra with pointers or links on information to caste/race/religion demographics and history of Andhra?
Posted by: Mudy Jul 14 2004, 08:39 AM
QUOTE
I am one of the 82% , does that makes me responsible?
Yes, if you went to polling booth and pressed button in front of hand without reading manifesto of party whose symbol is Hand YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE. Too late. biggrin.gif In case you are in India, you can take few actions. 1) Educate your family members and friends about ills of reservation on religious basis. 2) Send mass letters to print media and President, PMO, Extra COnsitutional Power, opposition party. 3) Visit Delhi and try to visit BJP head office in Delhi, try to meet some executive and tell them. 4) Next time before voting try to read party minifesto. 5) Don't vote for jokers who want to divide India. If you have guts, bring back Mandal commision agitation days or leave India for good.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 14 2004, 11:24 AM
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=50934 The AP chief minister’s order on reservations for religious communities must be opposed
Posted by: vijayk Jul 14 2004, 12:13 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jul 14 2004, 11:54 PM)
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=50934 The AP chief minister’s order on reservations for religious communities must be opposed
The Italian Express now opposes AP's reservations to muslims. But before and after elections, they ran a dogged campaign against Naidu, NDA, BJP. They were publishing stories of farmer's suicide every day in the front page before elections. The suicide rate trebled after CoNmen came into power but Italian Express suddenly went blind. They don't see suicides as problem anymore. Suddenly they developed a conscience about reservation. The bankrupt COMMIES, CONmen and DIE-NASTY have benn talking about this before elections. We will see much more worse times ahead. CONmen led by Rahul are on a mission to grab UP. So they will start pushing this "R" card big time now. We will see now what Italian Express and Times Of Italy will feel about it!
Posted by: Mudy Jul 14 2004, 12:18 PM
Seems like this editorial is written by one sane person left in Italian Express, Talveen Singh. Don't expect anything from COmmies and CONgress. Look forward for another partition of India.
Posted by: Mudy Jul 14 2004, 09:04 PM
Quota of discord The Pioneer Edit Desk Andhra Pradesh is turning out to be the microcosmic model of the UPA's 'welfarist' gimmickry. The Congress dispensation's order according five per cent reservation to Muslims in educational institutions and government jobs is populist tokenism at its worst. Quotas have long been used to create and coddle political constituencies. And the minority's devalorisation as a supposedly submissive electoral herd by so-called secular parties is a tale that needs no retelling. The Andhra Government yokes two evils to produce a third: Community-based quotas. The socially divisive potential of its vote-catching agenda appears the least of its concerns. The Congress-ruled State seems the preferred laboratory for the regressive experiment before the UPA relays reservation-related communal politicking beyond its borders. A Bill is to be introduced to give statutory backing to the YS Rajasekhara Reddy dispensation's decision, which would involve including the minority in the backward class category. The ploy is to provide a socio-economic fig leaf to a blatantly communal move, by which a select religious group is made the targeted beneficiary-in return for loyalty. The YSR regime claims it has acted on a report on the poor living standards and low income and literacy levels of Andhra's Muslims. This cannot be accepted even for argument's sake. If helping below-the-poverty-line Muslim families were its motive, it would have to explain its silence on whether well-to-do Muslims would be excluded, or how it proposed to separate the needy from the piggy-backers. The minority is not free from caste differentiation. Hence, lower caste Muslims are already covered by the Mandal scheme. Also, the equation of the community as a whole with backwardness is a fallacy that only keeps minority appeasers in business without their delivering the promised uplift. The Andhra order sets a terrible precedent. Other social groups will clamour for community-based quotas. But, since Muslims are singled out for special treatment for obvious reasons, communal discord will result. Political manipulation of reservations has been so widely decried that it has forced a welcome change in the discourse of affirmative action in favour of the economic criterion. The Constitution itself is flawed in this regard, giving no cover to what is today known as the economically backward classes (EBCs). In 1992, the Supreme Court had held social and educational factors to be the only indices of backwardness, so much so that a bid to accord 10 per cent quotas to upper caste poor did not succeed. Yet, it is imperative to gear quotas to the economically deprived, be they Muslims, Hindus or members of any other community, through a constitutional amendment if required. India's socio-economic landscape is characterised by mobility-a fact stakeholders in caste and communal ghettoisation are loath to admit. Reservations have, in fact, proved a Pandora's box because EBCs across the social board are yet to be recognised as the only sections in need of positive discrimination. Andhra's five per cent minority quota stunt seems to be the beginning of a new-and socially hazardous-trajectory. There is no saying whether a future demand for even proportional quotas for the minority may not be considered by the Congress. Muslims would, however, do well to remember that this is the very party to which they traditionally owe their reduction to a tragically dehumanised votebank. History has shown that the carrots it has dangled have not been worth the self-esteem it has demanded as a price.
Posted by: Ashish Jul 14 2004, 09:47 PM
QUOTE
Every one who voted for CONmen and COMMIEs are partly responsible for this. This is the tragedy in India. We need accountability form our leaders. Nobody clearly reads a manifesto.
Vijayk, I am with you on this except I would replace "CONmen and COMMIEs" with "the parties which talks about reservation on the grounds of religion". (I am sorry I am not in favor of naming the parties in general terms. you see some party can be good today and bad tomm. In Mandal days (when I was studying) we came out on roads and protested in whatever way we could. We were against the very concept of Reservation..it happened neverthiless sad.gif. Yes, I had read the reservation point in the menifesto you talk about..I am also pointing on the Samajwadi Party's menifesto again..I am afraid SP will do it in UP. A ray o hope : I have read today that the decision has been challanged in the court. Mudy,
QUOTE
Yes, if you went to polling booth and pressed button in front of hand without reading manifesto of party whose symbol is Hand YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE. Too late.
If I would have done that..I would not have blown the wistle now in this forum. Thanks for the suggestions...I have noted all the five. ( #4 and #5 I already follow), no harm in repeating the lessons, Thanks Now your point no 2 : Mass letters...."Can I seek the help of the forum to draft letters? ( I don't know if the forun allows)... The point here is : 1) Forum is collectivily more knowledgable than I am 2) There is strength in nos. I wish I could recreate the mondal agitation days (guts no problem)..but a word of caution here..the reservation was implemented despite the agitation. Oh. I will be last one to leave (I love my mother India)..but who knows Ashish
Posted by: Mudy Jul 14 2004, 10:18 PM
QUOTE
Now your point no 2 : Mass letters...."Can I seek the help of the forum to draft letters? ( I don't know if the forun allows)... The point here is : 1) Forum is collectivily more knowledgable than I am 2) There is strength in nos.
That is the main objective of this forum. Write draft, i hope other member will join and polish it. Mass email works, one should try all legitimate route to put some sense in brain dead selfish so called leaders of India.
QUOTE
I wish I could recreate the mondal agitation days (guts no problem)..but a word of caution here..the reservation was implemented despite the agitation.
But with less percentage and VP Singh bacame history, but recently he came out from gutter to mess up India with ralling around all know traitors of India to support Sonia and commies.
QUOTE
you see some party can be good today and bad tomm
Commies and Congress are always bad and now they are in worse category.
Posted by: Ashish Jul 14 2004, 10:55 PM
QUOTE
That is the main objective of this forum. Write draft, i hope other member will join and polish it.
Great! I will work on the draft and put it up by the evening today...we already have the email ids. of all the jokers sitting on the power seats. While the opposition is still silent..BJP says they are still gathering the facts..VHP has decided to do something.. here is some news. http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/002200407151095.htm
QUOTE
Anyone from Andhra with pointers or links on information to caste/race/religion demographics and history of Andhra?
Yes Viren :the information you seek from Andhra fellows should be useful as well, so someone from AP please come up... Ashish
Posted by: Ashish Jul 15 2004, 02:51 AM
Hi all, Here is the first cut on the draft, request every one to review it so that the same can be sent TO; President/PM/Chief Justice of India/Leader of the opposition part (anyone else you can think of...) Referance : Declaration of Reservation for Muslims by AP Govt., is violation of the Article 16 of the Constitution of India. Dear Sir/Madam, We represent a community if Indians (Resident and Non-resident) who are interested that Indian Democracy should prosper, we would like to call upon your good offices to act against the above declation as: 1.This is a clear case of Violatation of the Article 16 of The Indian Constitution, which does not allow reservation based on cast. 2.Reservation itself is a huge fraud as the benefits don’t reach the real needy , and if it has to continue, it must be put to test through a Referendum. That is to say, if the countrymen are willing to go for a reservation-free society, they are entitled to have it in the interst of Democracy. 3.Politicians are using reservation to fulfill their short term goals and are endangering the India's social fabric 4.The reservation policy is a "go to hell" message for those who fall outside the brackets of reservation. A situation like this cannot continue for long. 5.Moreover, where goes the supreame court’s order on the reservation cap of 50%, which also has also been overlooked by the AP Govt., a clear slap on the Apex court. 6.We must also bring to your light that agitation like it happened during the implementation of Mandal commission report can also happen if it is not quickly withdrawn. I have also put online petition on the same subject..request everyone to sign it as well..needless to say, I shall update the petition statement as after we change the draft. the url is as under: http://www.petitiononline.com/res123/petition.html Look forward to your participation Ashish Reservation = inequality
Posted by: Bhootnath Jul 15 2004, 05:01 AM
Vijayk > The Italian Express now opposes AP's reservations to muslims. But before and after elections, Its tactical.. This is just to keep ppl happy, what's wrong in throwig a bone to gullible educated gentry once in a while , next you will see M for Modi and M for Murder ... After all Shekahr Gupta cant make iE into a Ganshakti ..... So Wake up!
Posted by: vijayk Jul 15 2004, 07:58 AM
QUOTE (Ashish @ Jul 15 2004, 03:21 PM)
Hi all, Here is the first cut on the draft, request every one to review it so that the same can be sent TO; President/PM/Chief Justice of India/Leader of the opposition part (anyone else you can think of...) Referance : Declaration of Reservation for Muslims by AP Govt., is violation of the Article 16 of the Constitution of India. Dear Sir/Madam, We represent a community if Indians (Resident and Non-resident) who are interested that Indian Democracy should prosper, we would like to call upon your good offices to act against the above declation as: 1.This is a clear case of Violatation of the Article 16 of The Indian Constitution, which does not allow reservation based on cast. 2.Reservation itself is a huge fraud as the benefits don’t reach the real needy , and if it has to continue, it must be put to test through a Referendum. That is to say, if the countrymen are willing to go for a reservation-free society, they are entitled to have it in the interst of Democracy. 3.Politicians are using reservation to fulfill their short term goals and are endangering the India's social fabric 4.The reservation policy is a "go to hell" message for those who fall outside the brackets of reservation. A situation like this cannot continue for long. 5.Moreover, where goes the supreame court’s order on the reservation cap of 50%, which also has also been overlooked by the AP Govt., a clear slap on the Apex court. 6.We must also bring to your light that agitation like it happened during the implementation of Mandal commission report can also happen if it is not quickly withdrawn. I have also put online petition on the same subject..request everyone to sign it as well..needless to say, I shall update the petition statement as after we change the draft. the url is as under: http://www.petitiononline.com/res123/petition.html Look forward to your participation Ashish Reservation = inequality
Ashish Do you think if any of these points make sense to add to your petition? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is well known fact that caste and religious based reservations are mostly used by the richer sections of these communities which don't need reservations. In addition, "Reservation" issue inflames passions and creates divisions in the society. A better approach would be to aim for high growth would create more jobs which will be available to all sections of society. India would be better served if Government offers seminars and training courses for executives and management teams of public and private industries on the benefits of diversity, anti-discrimination practices and toughening the laws to prosecute any companies practising discrimination based caste or communal lines.
Posted by: Viren Jul 15 2004, 08:13 AM
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=33805
QUOTE
The space for an autonomous Muslim politics has been almost non-existent, caught between political parties that ominously target them, and political parties that cynically use them. And Muslim politics has not been well served by its leaders, who have been reluctant to democratise institutions relevant to Muslims. All of these forces have combined to ensure that Muslims, rather than being integrated as equal citizens, unencumbered by the weight of their identities, are constantly put in the position of being a supplicant minority. Millions of ordinary Muslims have paid the price for this myopia.
Posted by: Spinster Jul 15 2004, 08:35 AM
Well President Narayanan a Christian had got a seat in MMBS for his daughter using BC quota. If they can why not muslims?
 




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