India Forum Archives
Saturday, January 03, 2004
  Pakistan, The Terrorist State
Posted by: Mudy Jan 3 2004, 10:59 PM
Old thread is in Trash can
The following links are background information on Pakistan: The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan MUSHARRAF'S US VISIT: FACTS TO KNOW The Terrorist swamp that is Pakistan - Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha which is a link to this great article: On the Frontier of Apocalypse by Christopher Hitchens (Nuclear Enabler - Pakistan today is the most dangerous place on Earth by Jim Hoagland) "Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency" - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk (This link is to a book called Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. It is a collection of essays by Paks about Pak society and remains one of the finest critiques about Pakistan available on the net. ) Seymour Hersh Interview This is a list of Pakistani businesses that may be aiding and funding terror against India and other countries. Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan Most wanted list requested by India/List of terrorist sheltered by Pakistan Dictionary meaning of 'paki']The Enigma of Military Rule in Pakistan By Dr. Ahmad Faruqui
Posted by: Mudy Jan 3 2004, 11:05 PM Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee on Saturday ruled out any bilateral talks with Pakistan during the three-day South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation summit in Islamabad, which begins on January 4. "We want to give our undivided attention and energy to the success of SAARC," he told Doordarshan in an interview, hours before his departure for Islamabad. "Its success will help resolution of other problems." Asked if the Kashmir problem could be resolved, the PM said efforts were on and should continue. "What is needed to resolve the issue is patience. This is because the issue has different aspects. One part of Kashmir is under Pakistani occupation and there is no talk about it. Another portion in the north is no longer a part of Jammu and Kashmir and has been given to a third country. A question could also raise on that. It is a complex problem," Vajpayee said. biggrin.gif He wanted both India and Pakistan to strengthen friendship and work together to resolve the problems. There should be no slackness, he said. "There is no other way."
Posted by: Karkala Joishy Jan 4 2004, 12:54 AM
This poor Paki sod is seeing the light. Hey, better late than never. Musharraf's Kashmir initiative First of all, let me state that it is absolutely shocking to see the confusion that dwells in the minds of quite a few Pakistanis with regard to the Kashmir issue. The recent hue and cry over President Gen Musharraf's statement provoked me to download the UN resolutions over Kashmir. Much to my surprise, it is stated in the resolution that the Pakistan government agrees to withdraw its forces from 'occupied Kashmir' (now called Azad Kashmir). That would then be followed by withdrawal of Indian troops from the Kashmir valley and the resolution then goes on to ask the Indian government to conduct a plebiscite in that state. Is that the resolution we want the UN to enforce? Certainly not. If the resolution is implemented, won't Pakistan be required to give up Azad Kashmir as well? For ages we have continued to blame the army for not being interested in resolving the Kashmir issue. However, the sorry fact is that our foreign office and our diplomats have thoroughly been outperformed by the Indian diplomatic lobby and now just because of them we find ourselves in a difficult situation. Gen Musharraf's bold remarks should be taken in their true perspective. Yes, Kashmir runs in the blood of each Pakistani, but the fact is that what Gen Musharraf recently stated was a conducive offer. He never mentioned that Pakistan is changing its stance on the issue of Kashmir. He just offered an alternative proposal to the Indians. He need not prove his commitment to Pakistan at each and every stage of his era as head of the state. There's a marked change in Pakistan's global image. We have been accused of supporting terrorism throughout. But the sorry part is that we refuse to accept it. Why on earth is everyone bent upon accusing Pakistan of that? So, let us acknowledge the fact. Hats off to Gen Musharraf for promoting Pakistan on the international front by being a key ally in the war against terrorism. MUHAMMAD SAAD KHAN
Posted by: Mudy Jan 4 2004, 12:57 AM,000600010001.htm Press Trust of India New Delhi, January 3 Delhi police on Saturday claimed to arrest a man who was allegedly trying to circulate fake Indian currency at the behest of some Pakistani nationals. About Rs 1.6 lakh fake currency was also recovered from the person. Ravinder Patel, 29, from Mount Abu, was nabbed after he allegedly tried to purchase a mobile phone using fake notes from a shop in Chandni Chowk area of North Delhi on Friday evening, Deputy Commissioner of Police (North District) Sanjay Baniwal said. Patel was produced before a court and remanded to three days' police custody. He was being interrogated by a joint team of police and intelligence agencies, Baniwal said. He has allegedly told his interrogators that he had visited Bangkok on December 23 and some Pakistanis there gave him Rs 1,60,200 in fake currency for circulation in India, Baniwal said. The Pakistanis told him that if he was successful in circulating the money, he could repay only half the amount, the DCP said.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 4 2004, 05:19 AM [ SUNDAY, JANUARY 04, 2004 12:00:07 AM ] Day-dreaming is becoming a national pastime. How else can one explain the near-hysteria over Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's Islamabad visit and the fantasies being woven around it? Visions of an EU-style South Asia Union are being conjured up when Pakistan has been loath even to establish a normal trading relationship with New Delhi and Bangladesh is hesitant to sell its natural gas to India . Five reasons why the Union is a pipedream... Pakistan or Problemistan Pakistan is not a normal state. It's Problemistan, and is likely to remain so. No nation has more deadly transnational terrorists on its territory than Pakistan — the Al Qaeda, Taliban and assorted Kashmir-jihad groups. While the world worries about terrorists acquiring weapons of mass destruction, Pakistan flaunts both state-supported terrorists and nuclear weapons controlled by Islamist generals. How can any union include a nation engaged in covert actions in breach of international law, including the export of terrorism, narcotics and nuclear materials? Can India , the world's back office for IT, realistically partner with Pakistan , the back office for IT of a different type — international terrorism? Political incompatibility Democracies cannot form a union with autocracies. An EU-style union demands minimal political and economic compatibility among its members. India and Sri Lanka are the only thriving democracies in this mottled region, which shows off a military dictatorship in Pakistan, an Indian-reinstated autocracy in the Maldives, a palace-dictated democracy in Nepal, a monarchy in Bhutan and a flawed democracy in Bangladesh. How can we expect economic and political transparency that a union necessitates when some states do not have an independent judiciary or even rule of the law? Open borders spell trouble When India 's security is being undermined by transborder terrorists and millions of illegal immigrants despite closely-guarded borders, imagine what open borders would bring. Bangladeshi refugees would economically and culturally swamp India . Due to its open border with India , Nepal has already become a happy hunting ground for Pakistani and Chinese intelligence as well as for other foreign interests seeking to undermine Indian security. For India , the challenge is to better manage and control its 15,200 km long land frontier with six countries and its 7,683 km coastline. Geopolitical compulsions South Asia is geopolitically uncongenial to the union concept. The other SAARC members do not border each other. But all of them border India , which they view with innate suspicion because of its dominance. While the EU is the result of equilibrium among several major middle powers, India geographically and economically casts too large a shadow over South Asia . In the SAARC framework, India would have to constantly bend backwards to accommodate others and yet not be able to ease their concerns. India 's natural strategic compass, is much broader than South Asia — a landmass compromising mainly of the former undivided India . SAARC's a small market The SAARC market is small for India . Such is the size and sophistication of the markets of other SAARC countries that Indian IT exports are almost equal to Pakistan 's entire exports. It's only by looking at markets beyond South Asia that Indian companies are becoming competitive. Yet, India needs to attract and influence its immediate neighbours. Having established a general SAFTA framework for liberalising trade and capital flows, India should push for bilateral accords and turn free trade with Sri Lanka into a regional model. With Dhaka , India could start modestly and phase in gradual trade liberalisation so that Bangladesh , rather than illegally exporting its surplus labour, employs them at home to make goods and services for export to India . Such bilateral tie-ups and faster Indian economic growth (not the pursuit of a union pipedream) would arm India with leverage to influence Pakistan 's conduct. Brahma Chellaney: The author is a strategic affairs expert
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 4 2004, 05:22 AM According to Sarerahe in Nawa-e-Waqt, Pakistan’s most well known philanthropist Abdus Sattar Edhi disclosed that he had only one set of clothes which he washed every time he took a bath. But he took this bath only once a month! Edhi also said that had his second wife not run away with his funds he was thinking of marrying one wife in each province to set up a system of human help all over Pakistan under the scrutiny of his wives. But the second wife may have run away because of the bath! pakee.gif I was under the Impression that Lotastaanis bathed “DUR ROZ JUMAY KAY JUMAY”. Now it has been proved that they Bathe “DUR ROZ MAHINAY KAY MAHINAY” This must be causing the ever present stink in Lotastaan causes some people to Puke and so naming it as “Pukistan” Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 4 2004, 07:05 AM Musharraf lost the provincial assemblies’ vote’ By Iqbal Khattak PESHAWAR: A Pakistan People’s Party Parliamentarians (PPPP) leader on Saturday claimed that President Pervez Musharraf lost the vote of confidence on Thursday because he secured 124 value votes, instead of getting 131 out of a total of 260. In an interview with Daily Times, Abdul Akbar Khan, who is the PPPP parliamentary leader in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) Assembly, accused the government of deceiving the nation and the international community by claiming that Mr Musharraf had won 441 votes in his favour. “In fact, Mr Musharraf secured 124 votes if we go by the Constitution. It says the value of the votes of each province are equal for the election of a president,” said Mr Khan. “Since Balochistan is the smallest province and its assembly’s strength stands at 65 it means each province, irrespective of its strength, will have the same value of votes.”“You cannot go by the total strength of each province. If we go by the total strength of each province, Punjab is strong enough to elect a president even if the other three provinces oppose it. This is what federalism is all about,” said Mr Khan. He said it was a mockery of the Constitution to count all votes in favour of Mr Musharraf. “I think a very bad precedent was set. A feeling of hatred may grow among smaller provinces that could lead the country towards disintegration,” he warned. Mr Khan went on to argue that the country was ruled under a federal system and that was why the head of the government needed a simple majority in the National Assembly. “For the president, a different methodology all together was adopted in the Constitution. Every province had an equal share of votes while electing the head of state,” he added. He accused the chief election commissioner of betraying the nation by fixing a time, date and place to dispose of a resolution seeking a vote of confidence for Mr Musharraf. “Where is the resolution? I checked the whole record of the Frontier Assembly and there was no resolution to move,” he argued. “How did the chief election commissioner fix the time, date and place when the resolution was not moved?” he asked. He said the Frontier Assembly was not in session on December 31 and nor was the resolution moved on January 1. He said house rules require that a resolution be moved in all assemblies for a vote of confidence, the senate chairman, and the National Assembly speaker and the provincial assembly speakers must send that resolution to the chief election commissioner. Mr Khan said the agreement between the government and the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal helped Mr Musharraf gain the presidency through referendum, which contravened the basic requirements of the Constitution.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 4 2004, 09:37 AM
Nuke Sales Brochure can be seen here.
Posted by: Reggie Jan 4 2004, 05:55 PM The 'key of Kashmir' Jama'at-I-Islami was credited with intelligence sources and worldwide media as being the primary mover behind a bloody 1992 Islamic jihad that was designed to capture two-thirds of Kashmir from Indian forces to turn it into an Islamic state. The mujahedeen soon lost any sympathy they had had from rural people when activities devolved to include the kidnapping and gang rape of young women and forced induction into the terrorist ranks. The events reached the nadir of depravity when one Mrs. Girja Tiku of Terehgan, Kupwara, was abducted, gang-raped and her body left shredded on the ground. In the end, 1,585 men and women including 981 Muslims, 218 Hindus, 23 Sikhs and 363 security personnel were killed. Among those killed were 12 political leaders and 510 government officials Supporters of the mujahedeen blame Indians for brutal behavior while inter-governmental reports indicated Indians found to be acting in such a manner were in the minority and quickly removed from their posts. Kashmiri women reported that the mujahedeen threatened them in order to force them to accuse Indians of rape. Pakistani representatives of Islamic fundamentalist groups have called for the strategic recruitment of black Americans into their ranks to offset the "venal influence" of the "Hindu-Jewish" vote in the U.S. (also referred to as the "powerful Indian-Israeli lobby"). One young convert from Jamil al-Amin's Atlanta mosque joined Islamic separatists in Kashmir, where he was killed attacking an Indian army post. "Kashmir shall go on bleeding until Kashmiris are given right to decide their future," namely to establish an Islamic state, Hussein has told foreign media. Syed Mahmoodullah, the former Taliban envoy in Karachi, and a supporter of the Kashmiri jihad stressed the global aspiration of the battle in words that echo declarations by Hamas and Hezbollah: "Jihad being a continuous process against apostasy and other anti-Islamic forces, could not stop at a certain point of time and space within or beyond one's borders."
Posted by: raj Jan 5 2004, 01:15 AM Originally posted in BR. The real meaning of Pakistan explained;f=1;t=005934;p=4 manku thimma Member Member # 4143 posted 04 January 2004 11:59 AM Sridhar was the first to "out" the dictionary meaning of 'paki'. as a service to BR, i've posted a scan of the relevant section for laughs. IP: Logged narayanan Member Member # 982 posted 04 January 2004 12:29 PM quote:the dictionary meaning of 'paki'. as a service to BR "Research" in the best traditions. Class! Sheer class! So - now it all comes out (no pun intended..) "Pakiza-stan" would have been: "Land - e- Pure" However "Pakistan" is ... This needs to be added to the list of Immortal Sayings at the head of each Pak Thread from now on, Insh-Admin. specool.gif thumbup.gif
Posted by: Viren Jan 5 2004, 10:04 AM
Peregrine (in old thread):
In this respect India must check the Bon Fides of every Lotastanni Visa Applicant also the Bona fides of their Relatives in India as it seems a lot of Lotastaani visit India without having any Relatives in India and the Illegally Settle Down in India.
I highly doubt GoI implementing this check on bonafides of Lotastanni relatives. Now that PIA has started landing in India, is our Indian govt insisting on any kind of passenger manifest *before* their flight takes off from their swamp? I doubt it. Very recently, US Govt has started enforcing this rule here in US i.e., of getting the passenger manifest sent (running a crosscheck here) before the flight lands on US soil - recent cancellation of flights from UK/France were result of this check. I think GoI could make a start with something like this and then move on to bigger things.
Posted by: Viren Jan 5 2004, 10:22 AM No references to the jihadis who perished in those attacks on Mushy. blink.gif Adds to the conspiracy theory that Mushy has been orchestrating this all along pakee.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 5 2004, 04:29 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 5 2004, 10:04 AM)
I highly doubt GoI implementing this check on bonafides of Lotastanni relatives. Now that PIA has started landing in India, is our Indian govt insisting on any kind of passenger manifest *before* their flight takes off from their swamp? I doubt it. Very recently, US Govt has started enforcing this rule here in US i.e., of getting the passenger manifest sent (running a crosscheck here) before the flight lands on US soil - recent cancellation of flights from UK/France were result of this check. I think GoI could make a start with something like this and then move on to bigger things.
Viren : IMO the Indian Visa Office in Lotastaan should carry out a thorough check on the Bone Fide of the Indian Relatives of the Lotastaani Visa Applicants. The cost of this through check – including a Local Police Check – should be billed to the Lotastaani Visa Applicant. Pure and Simple. Sure Lotastaan can retaliate and do the same to Indian Visa Applicants. This is only correct as Lotastaan does not need any Illegal Immigrants from India even if they happen to be Muslims. I am all for Lotastaani Visitors visiting India and would be the first in the Queue at the Indian Border to Welcome them, but, I also want them to go back after Six Months and would definitely be willing to be the last one in the Queue thanking them for visiting India and spending their hard earned Money thereby helping the Indian Economy. I hope One Million Lotastaanis visit every Year. They should have to bring at least USD 250 per month of stay in India and exchange it for Indian Rupees at the Indian Border point of entry. I would also want the Government of India to ensure that One Million Lotastaanis visiting India go back to their Beloved Lotastaan. The following news Item from the Daily Times is Distressing :
LAHORE: South Asia Foundation (SAF), a non government organisation has announced a scholarship grant of US$ 300,000 for 1,000 brilliant but needy students at the Pakistan Allama Iqbal Open University (AIOU).
Every Year 1,000 Madrassah Educated, Religious Bigots will get further Education to Kill the Hindus according to their syllabus/curricula that has been established in Lotastaani Schools as per the following Articles by Dr. Farrukh Saleem : What has India done to Madanjeet Singh to deserve such a stab in the back? furious.gif frusty.gif Cheers
Posted by: Ajgir Jan 5 2004, 08:51 PM
My First Post : Since the creation of their state, Pakistani politicians have maintained that Kashmir is a national issue, far more important than any other issue, and that the legitimacy of their entity would not be complete without having full sovereignty over the entire Kashmir territory. Additionally, it has been repeatedly said that any Pakistani leader giving up on this issue would be doomed to death. Current debates on Pakistani websites, however, show that such ideas no longer have supporters other than extremist religious groups. Young and educated Pakistanis seem to be more concerned about peace in the subcontinent, as a prelude to development, prosperity and better standards of living, than the fate of Kashmir. It was not surprising, therefore, that the recent assassination attempts against General Pervez Musharraf were solely organised by fundamentalist groups. After years of unsuccessful policies aimed at forcing India to end its sovereignty over Kashmir, Pakistan seems to be yielding to the voice of reason and realism by clearly acknowledging that it is impossible to find a solution to the Kashmir issue through the outdated UN resolutions of 1948 and 1949. It should be noted that Pakistan, not India, created obstacles in the path of the implementation of these resolutions. India was the party which took the case to the UN first, hoping justice would be done. Despite its displeasure with the UN resolutions, India agreed to implement them and hastened to hold several meetings with Pakistan in the early 1950s for this purpose. But Pakistan's reluctance to withdraw its invading troops from Kashmir prior to holding a plebiscite, as stated in the resolutions, complicated the whole situation. Should Musharraf stick to his recent public declaration that he has left aside the concept of a plebiscite to end the Kashmir dispute in favour of other realistic mechanisms, and should he translate this into action before being assassinated or overthrown by fanatic forces, he would be remembered in history as the first Pakistani leader to turn the chapter of the most serious cause of hostility and instability in South Asia. What forced Musharraf to give up a long-held taboo? The simple answer is that Pakistan is currently facing unprecedented internal and external situations, in which its own survival is threatened. Hence, Musharraf probably thought it better for his nation to pursue a more realistic policy towards Kashmir than seizing upon a dream that would never come true in a changing world governed by new strategic equations and norms. In this context, one can point to the following developments: First : There is now a growing tendency towards the notion of independence among Kashmiris rather than a UN plebiscite that only gives them the option to become either a part of India or Pakistan. Should this get deeper, Pakistan could be obliged to abandon the Kashmiri territories under its control since 1947. This, in turn, could encourage separatist sentiments among Pakistan's different ethnic groups. On the other hand, anti-independence Kashmiris increasingly realise that Pakistan is not an attractive state to be annexed to, hence they prefer to remain part of a technologically and economically rising India but under new terms that give them a wider margin of sovereignty. Second: During the last two years, India succeeded in holding fruitful, direct negotiations with many Kashmiri political leaders who until recently were fully pro-Pakistan and refused to talk to the Indians. As a result, Pakistan became isolated with only one or two Kashmiri factions. Third: Pakistan undertook an international campaign against India's security measures in Kashmir to win sympathy from human rights organisations. But these organisations came to the conclusion that crimes committed against non-Muslim Kashmiris by the Pakistan-sponsored Jihadi movements were no different from those allegedly committed by the Indian forces. Thus, Islamabad was deprived of one of its weapons, as far as the Kashmir issue is concerned. Fourth: In recent years, India has successfully forged stronger relations with a number of influential regional powers such as Iran, Turkey and Malaysia. This led to these countries adopting a more neutral stance on the Kashmir. This even included China, Pakistan's long-standing strategic ally. As a result, Pakistan's Kashmir policy came to be only advocated by a number of ineffective international players. Fifth: After the fall of the Taliban, Islamabad lost its influence in Afghanistan. More important was the loss of its northern backyard, which had been used for recruiting, training, and arming Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri fighters prior to their infiltration into Indian Kashmir. Sixth : The military balance in the Indian subcontinent is tipped unfavourably against Pakistan following the security and military agreements between India and Israel and India's success in building up a strategic relationship with Washington, acquiring military bases in Central Asia, developing its naval forces, and winning Moscow's approval to jointly manufacture Russian fighters and tanks. Against such developments, it has become costly for Pakistan to continue its policies of harassing India. Seventh : While India is emerging as one of the world's largest economies, Pakistan's economy is declining and becoming heavily dependent on foreign aid. With such an unhealthy economic position, it had become impossible for Pakistan to continue its old Kashmir policy. Peace
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 5 2004, 10:07 PM
Yesterday , I watched NDTV "The big fight" from islamabad. There were two guys and one lady . The two guys were Fanatic mullah/Army mutants. The other lady was supposed to be some kind of a "human rights" activist. The usual , "pakistan is in our blood" nonsense was spewed by the two guys. But what the human rights lady said was more alarming. It just goes to show how much bigoted even the so called "peace" loving people are. She said that even though pakistan has never been a democracy the people of pakistan are so democratic and secular that there is no need for democracy and even though the Indian people have had democracy all the time they are so gullible and she is not comfortable with the way our democracy is going. It is becoming a little too religion based for her comfort. So she advised us to become more secular, while the country that was formed based on religious intolerance does not need democracy. Made me want to throw up.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 5 2004, 11:14 PM
yes was sareen some thing .... Middle aged woman. It was so scary to see the wolf under the sheep's skin.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 5 2004, 11:24 PM
yes was sareen some thing .... Middle aged woman. It was so scary to see the wolf under the sheep's skin.
She can be seen here also. Have fun biggrin.gif
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 5 2004, 11:26 PM
He ..he..... tv_feliz.gif biggrin.gif That is funny ..... I have a very important question for you . Why do they call them jelebis? ???
Posted by: Mudy Jan 5 2004, 11:35 PM
Every tuesday she spew anti India article in Paki newspaper. Well it is sweet for us, see her frustration. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 6 2004, 12:39 AM .... Indian PM Vajpayee met Pakistan's PM for about 30 minutes and President Musharraf for about 60 minutes, totalling 90 minutes or so. For nearly 1170 million people of both the countries, they have 1 minute for every 13 million people in 3 years. Gosh they are so busy, they don't have time to even just TALK. Sadiq Ali Bohra, Hyderabad, Pakistan No matter how much dialogue is established I don't think there will ever be peace in Kashmir. Just as there will never be peace in Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan. The reason being that nobody wants to lose what they've got and nobody will give up what they have taken. Rizwan Saleem, UK
Posted by: Viren Jan 6 2004, 12:44 AM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 5 2004, 12:37 PM)
she is not comfortable with the way our democracy is going. It is becoming a little too religion based for her comfort.
It's a joke - who gives a rats behind for what her comfort is. I'm sure more Pakis than Indians were pissed at the PISS director being a wimmen and are not comfortable that the potato nose was not hidden in the beekeeper suit. Anyway, why does NDTV telecast such nonsense?
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 6 2004, 01:08 AM
I dont know ...but the guy who was conducting the show was trying too hard to get the pakis say some reconcilliatory remarks. In my opinion , he should have just let them loose and made india see the venom they spew. This guy was trying so hardto put words into their mouths. The name of the program s "BIG FIGHT"
Posted by: Mudy Jan 6 2004, 04:15 AM
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 6 2004, 08:49 AM
I am really concerned of these "peace moves" with the Terrorist State. I fear it is a prelude to another Kargil or worse. History has taught us that Hindus tend to become complacent after major victories and squander away their advantage. People seem to forget that the Pakis killed people in Jammu station even as these "peace talks" were being hatched. I fear the people to people contacts are only going to get in the next batch of Ghazis to attack our interior cities. In effect what I believe is happening is that USA has succeeded in delaying the inevitable end of TSP that we were all hoping for. The time bought by these peace moves would be used the TSPians to improve their panoply of weapons, and rest their army, while continuing to wage the proxy war with pro-Pakistani Moslem 5th column. If true, this new lease of life for the Pukes could prove enormously costly in 2007. When the US is only tightening its security arrangements by the day, we in historical Hindu style are relaxing it. Let us not forget how Rama Raya went down at Taalikota.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 6 2004, 08:58 AM
HH, Read this, you will realized India is full of moron and JAICHAND. ’Tis theatrical Wait for the next govt for real progress on Indo-Pak relations I hope BJP come back with majority MANI SHANKAR AIYAR As I write this morning of Monday, January 5, the SAARC summit at Islamabad seems to be rolling towards new horizons and India-Pakistan relations seem poised to shift gear to a new plane. As an impassioned votary of both a South Asian identity and its essential pre-requisite, a sensible relationship between India and Pakistan, I can only hail the new dawn but regret the needless night into which we have been led these last five barren years. The same Musharraf who was excoriated as the Butcher of Kargil is now regarded as the indispensable bulwark of better India-Pakistan relations. The same military dictatorship that was denounced as the main obstacle on the path to progress is now being trusted as the guarantor of agreements once made being kept. And the same Pakistan that was portrayed as an incorrigible promoter of terrorism and Talibanisation is now being wooed as a partner in peace. Good. But can we have some consistency please? If General Pervez Musharraf was the chief conspirator to undermine the Lahore summit, how is he today our favoured interlocutor? If Pervez Musharraf on October 12 1999, was an illegitimate usurper, how is he legit now? If Musharraf masterminded Kargil then, how is he the Man of Peace now? If Musharraf was the single-minded promoter of the Taliban then, is he now a new convert to secular democracy? If we could not talk to a military dictator then, is the CEO turned Chief of Military Staff and President of the Islamic Republic an elected democrat now? If we then said we could talk only with a democratic government but not a military authority, do we regard the Jamali government as Pakistan Shining? If, as Advani in particular keeps asserting, Pakistan is a theocratic state, then has Musharraf the Mullah now become the high priest of moderation and modernisation? If Musharraf then was the evil genius of cross-border terrorism, is he now the symbol of restraint? Moreover, if the Pakistan government was behind the December 13 2001 terrorist attack on our Parliament, as our government has steadfastly maintained these last two years, have the Pakistanis atoned now for their guilt — or were they never guilty? And if Vajpayee’s great achievement at Agra was, in his own words, sending back Musharraf “khaali haath aur moonh latkaye hue”, then what has fundamentally changed in Musharraf, in the Pakistan armed forces or in Pakistan itself for Vajpayee to now not leave Musharraf behind in Islamabad “khaali haath aur moonh latkaye hue”? The fact is that we are as much prisoner of our frozen mindsets as we love to accuse the Pakistanis of being of theirs. It is our government that has failed to bring on record the full facts of the attack on Parliament on December 13 2001. The country went along with the government in their assertion that this was an officially sponsored Pakistani assault on the citadel of our democracy. As a people, we had no alternative. We assumed the government knew a great deal we did not know, accepting the “need-to-know” principle in regard to national security. Therefore, few questioned the deliberation with which the Government of India after Thirteen Twelve hacked away at one after the other of the links which had been so assiduously put together over decades to keep people-to-people contacts going, whatever our doubts or derision about the Pakistan establishment. It was India, not Pakistan, that banned overflights. It was India, not Pakistan, that stopped the Samjhauta Express. It was India, not Pakistan, that snapped the bus service. It was India, not Pakistan, that withdrew its High Commissioner. It was India, not Pakistan, that asked the Pakistan High Commissioner to leave, then expelled the charge d’affaires. It was India, not Pakistan, that slashed diplomatic staff strength and compelled the other to do the same. It was India, not Pakistan, that mobilised the bulk of its armed forces to go to the frontline and wait there for ten long months on full alert twiddling their thumbs. And it was India, not Pakistan, that said, “No dialogue” till cross-border terrorism was ended and the infrastructure of terrorism dismantled. Of course, Pakistan retaliated. Would India have done otherwise? And thus started the vicious spiral of tension-stoking between two nuclear weapons-armed neighbours, bringing in the world to twist both our arms. The progress made these last few months has been no more than the undoing of the unilateral decisions of our own government. Is this statesmanship? Anyway, now that the excesses of our own government are behind us, can we get on with the dialogue? Or are we still going to insist on an end to cross-border terrorism and the dismantling of the infrastructure of terrorism? If we do not face up to the impracticality of our own conditions, we will remain frozen in previous postures. Cross-border terrorism will be ended when the dialogue reaches a fruitful conclusion. We are making the desired outcome the pre-condition. It has not worked all these five wasted years. It is not going to work now. The only thing that can and will work is a structured dialogue, so structured as to keep the dialogue going, uninterrupted and uninterruptible, till both sides discover the modus vivendi which will enable India and Pakistan and, therefore, South Asia, to live in peace and work together towards prosperity. Quick fix solutions of the kind Vajpayee hankers after will not work, as they disastrously did not work when he made his ill-fated journey to China as foreign minister or, worse, his bumbling initiative at Lahore, an initiative so flawed that Jaswant Singh forgot to mention “cross-border terrorism” anywhere in the Lahore Declaration! If the summit in Islamabad leads to the signing and ratification of long-initialled Indo-Pak accords, such as the agreement on Siachen, that would be real progress. And so would it be real progress for the signal to be given for the commencement of talks about talks. Alas, Vajpayee is primarily interested in theatre and grand standing. We will have to wait for the next government to move forward on India-Pakistan relations.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 6 2004, 11:46 AM By Dan Morrison THE WASHINGTON TIMES ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf met for the first time in two years yesterday, raising cautious hopes that a recent thaw in tensions between the nuclear-armed rivals would lead to talks about the flash-point region of Kashmir. The leaders last met in 2001 during a failed summit in India. Since then, relations have been marked by a near-war in 2002, an escalating arms buildup and continuing Indian accusations that Pakistan is supporting terrorist attacks against its more powerful neighbor. "We should understand the difficulties we face and must find a way out together," Mr. Vajpayee told reporters before his meeting with Gen. Musharraf. Officials took pains to avoid revealing what Gen. Musharraf, Mr. Vajpayee and a group of aides said during the 65-minute meeting at the presidential palace. "The two leaders discussed the positive impact of the recent confidence-building measures and hopes that their momentum would be maintained," Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan said. "I want to make clear that I have not revealed the content of their discussions, only the context in which they were held." "Both leaders welcomed the recent steps toward the normalization," Indian Foreign Minister Yashwant Sinha said. There were, however, hints at broader cooperation. India's national-security adviser, Brajesh Mishra, arrived in Islamabad unannounced on Thursday for talks with senior Pakistani military and intelligence officials. The Musharraf-Vajpayee meeting took place on the sidelines of the regional summit of seven South Asian leaders. Pakistan's information minister, Sheik Rashid, said Gen. Musharraf and Mr. Vajpayee had agreed to talk again. There was no public mention of Kashmir, India's only Muslim-majority state, which India and Pakistan have fought two wars over since 1947. India accuses Pakistan of supporting Islamic militants responsible for a regular toll of attacks in Indian-administered Kashmir and elsewhere in India. "For India, Kashmir is an integral part of India," said Arif Jamal, a Pakistani expert on the Islamic militant movement in Kashmir. "For Pakistan, it is a jugular vein." The current warming began in April, when Mr. Vajpayee said he wanted to give peace one last try. Gen. Musharraf last month indicated flexibility on Pakistan's major demand: That India let Kashmiris vote on whether they wish to remain a part of India, join Pakistan or become independent
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 6 2004, 03:41 PM
Hauma Hamiddha I am equally concerned at the antics of Indian Prime Minister “Giveaway” (from the word coined by the West Indians for Gary Sobers). We had a Border crossing by Rail and Buses in Lahore/Atari-Delhi and the Air Service. What was the need to add Srinagar-Muzzafarabad Bus Service, Rajasthan-Sind Rail Service and finally a Mumbai-Karachi Ferry Service. The only conclusion I can draw is that PM “Giveaway” is bent up on the Foolish Utopian Idea that the Lotastaanis will give up their hate and live Peacefully with India. This can never be. I do agree that there is only a small number of Indian Muslim Fifth Columnists in India. The overwhelming Majority of India Muslims is just that – Indian Muslims. This is evidenced by the fact that only a fraction of Indian Muslims visit Lotastaan as compared to Lotastaanis teeming into India. Lotastaan does not suffer from Indian Muslims Visitors Illegally Migrating to Lotastaan. Thousands upon Thousands of Lotastaanis do not return home after they have lived out the validity of their visa. The Indian Government is considering deporting them back to Lotastaan just as it is considering deporting the Illegal Millions of Bhookhanangadeshis back. No matter how many generation of these Lotastaanis and Bhookhanangadeshis live in India their allegiance will remain with Lotastaan and Bhookhanangadesh. One way to reduce the Illegal Immigration of Lotastaanis is to ensure that every Lotastaani Visa applicant is thoroughly screened and checked and a mechanism put in place, which will ensure that these visitors return to their beloved Lotastaan. Similarly in the case of Bhookhanangadeshi visitors. I see no advantage to the Security and Well Being of India by India pushing in more and more measures for easy, open border, visa-less travel between our two countries. The Lotastaanis with over Thirty Years of hatred drilled into them (Mr. Nayyer who wrote the Lotastaani School Curricula is on record stating that the rot started in 1947) just cannot be won over by free medical treatment or education in India. They will use all the benefits received from India to one day wage Jihad in India. Having said that, IMO, the only reach Chanakian Vidhi enacted by Prime Minister “Giveaway” is that he has ensured Lotastaan remaining under the burden of the Hated Military Government for at least up to 2007 and may be another 5 to 15 Years beyond. This will continue to keep the Lotastaanis from developing themselves as day by day the Military is using more and more of Pakistan’s Resources for its on benefit thereby depriving the common man any chance of improvement. India must increase its Defence Readiness and Security by devoting at least Five Percent of its GDP to Defence. No amount of friendly gestures, concessions or benefits granted to Lotastaan can ever change the Lotastaani hostile mentality for India. Cheers
Posted by: Gill Jan 6 2004, 08:21 PM
India has just leased Pakistan and especially Musharraf few more years to life. Mr. Vajpayee is correct when he says we must live with our neighbors, well, lets concentrate on Nepal, Bhutan, Burma, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Continue with peacefull negotiations with Pakistan, but at same work on other neighbors and expand sphere of influence. Pakistan is buying time till US re-elections. It is hoping that democrats will win as Mush see Bush a danger to his rein of power. From India's point of view, why this charade of SAARC and then implying yes we will talk. We could have done this before. This mystery and suspense, please leave it for Hindi Film Industry. cool.gif
Posted by: Viren Jan 6 2004, 08:51 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 6 2004, 06:11 AM)
One way to reduce the Illegal Immigration of Lotastaanis is to ensure that every Lotastaani Visa applicant is thoroughly screened and checked and a mechanism put in place, which will ensure that these visitors return to their beloved Lotastaan. Similarly in the case of Bhookhanangadeshi visitors.
Peregrine: Now (actual since yesterday) vistors from all nations (save some 28 European nations) will be photographed and fingerprinted at every port of entry in US (time to buy stocks of storage/media companies wink.gif ). I wonder why India can't do the same - atleast with flights from TSP and certain Gulf nations.
Posted by: Viren Jan 6 2004, 08:55 PM
QUOTE (Gill @ Jan 6 2004, 10:51 AM)
From India's point of view, why this charade of SAARC and then implying yes we will talk.
Gill: My $0.02 on the timelines with respect to ABV. He started this peace (charade?) with Lahore in '99 - was torpeoded by MushRat. After delivering a sound trashing at Kargil, MushRat was given a welcome in India reserved only for Mughal emperors - only to hear "core issue" and absolute denial on any CBT by MushRat. Now we see ABV in IslumBad and MushRat signing the joint text with MushRat acknowledging CBT (for whatever it's worth) and 'core issue' to be "resolved to satisfaction of both parties" (which we know means sqwat - atleast in our life time). It's taken him a long time but ABV is accomplishing things per a vision he set out for himself while Pakis huffed and puffed and literally screamed uncle. I really believe Pak is a problem for the global community - India need not do anything about Pakis. To summarize, if Pakis mess around they get nothing. If they behave at best they'll get us to talk to them and maybe a few planes/trains/automobile trips or a match or movie here or there or maybe some hugs and kiss from our candle kissers or out of job politicians or maybe a kid or two being treated at Banglore. Sorry, but that's all you'll get you pakee.gif
Pakistan is buying time till US re-elections. It is hoping that democrats will win as Mush see Bush a danger to his rein of power.
Have you been following some of the statements by Dean or Clark lately. They fully recognize for what it is (though I doubt anything will change with respect to TSP - no matter who's in White House)
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 7 2004, 01:34 AM
An analysis of the recent SAARC developments ------------------------------------------------------ Many questions have been raised regarding ABV's wisdom in adopting a friendly posture towards Pakistan and especially Musharaf. The argument is ( to take Mani Shankar Iyer ) Pakistan has done nothing to combat CBT, has not handed over the 20 criminals India wanted , has not helped in tracking the hijackers , Curbing ISI activities etc. If ABV said that all these are necessary conditions for negotiations how come ABV is shaking mushrat's hand now? The argument of Mani Shankar Iyer is specious. It does not hold closer scrutiny. Despite the closeness of December Parliament attack to the September WTC attacks, the world "opinion" of Terroristan was not as bad as it is now. The bottom has literally fallen off . The western media shows no restraint in calling Pubeistan as the hot bed of terrorism , breeding ground , nuclear nightmare etc. At the same time the position of Musharaf is very tenuous with his own people . The jihadhis are trying to get him and he knows that. Last but not the least , the world knows that the Pakistani government has been trading nuclear secrets to "Axis-e-evil" type countries like a crack-h0@r trades sexu@l favours for a 5$ crack cocaine hit. They have lost their strategic depth in Afghanistan. Uncle's FBI dudes are running amuck in the pure-lands and the "once powerful" jihadhi middle and lower management scatter like cockroaches. What is worse is Uncle has realized that the same terrorists who helped uncle's strategic goals will not hesitate to turn on uncle himself. Uncle cannot domestically take an other 911 and explain to his people that people have to live with it their for strategic goals.( Read major profits for American companies). The pakis are swimming in sewage and they can not pretend that it is rose essence anymore. It is not just India that is saying "hey look what you are swimming in" is the entire world. Now in this back drop , we have to consider that there is no realistic chance of India going to a full-scale war with Pubeistan. Whether we like it or not. that is just how reality is . So we have to have a negotiated settlement when the country has a credible leader. When I say credible I mean credible in the eyes of UK Europe UN and US . Again whether we like it or not any settlement we make needs to have the international seal of approval. Frankly I have not seen Pakistan in such a disadvantageous position internally and externally in the past 10 years. Even their sponsors like Saudis are making their tidy whities very browny-browny when they watch CNN . This is a good time to negotiate with mushrat and get him to reign in the jihadhi scum in the pure-e-land and that will give us some time to put up the fence. Once the fence is up the truly indigenous kashmiri terrorists can be snuffed out like we did in punjab. It will definitely be a great help to us if we can create an atmosphere where mushrat can do our dirty work while whining about "how kashmir runs in paki blood", "core issue" and all that rubbish for his local audience. The important thing is NOT TO COOPT with mushrat but make the criminal work for us to save his own skin. ( I really hope ABV and LKA have this in their mind). When you have a sick, weak, dying, crazy destitute man who has something that is yours , you are better of making him sit down across the table and make him negotiate from a position of extreme weakness than to clobber him on the head and take it back. US can probably do it ,India cannot. So I am all for ABV s peace overtures as long as they are cosmetic and for a shot term. As of LOC=IB , I am all for it . Seriously guys does anyone really think that India will be better off with an other 25 million terrorists???? That is my take. rolleyes.gif
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 7 2004, 02:47 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 6 2004, 05:11 AM)
I do agree that there is only a small number of Indian Muslim Fifth Columnists in India. The overwhelming Majority of India Muslims is just that – Indian Muslims.
True Indian Moslems come in both types- fifth columnists and Indians. The point I did not clearly make was that the "people-to-people" contact with the unwashed from across the border might help in radicalizing many fence sitting Indian Moslems. I believe (based on opinion polls) that a significant number (~30 %) of Indian Moslems are actually neutral. They are not pro-Pakistan but they do not identify strongly with India either. This is the crowd that can swing either way. I may wrong about the exact number, but as Subramanian has been pointing out, certain demographic trends indicate this. That is why I have often mentioned that even if we have peace with Pak, we will really not be affecting the triumphalism of Indian Islamists. ............ Manishankar Aiyar is a really crude traitor, whose only objective is to be in power, irrespective of whether he wins elections or not.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 7 2004, 04:26 AM ISLAMABAD— There are two views about Islamabad understanding between Pakistan and India. One: “It will best serve the national interest.” The other: “It’s a complete sellout.” The truth lies somewhere sandwiched between these two extremes. Several definitions of ‘national interest’ notwithstanding, no one will disagree with the noble objectives of pursuance of peace and prosperity for the peoples of the subcontinent. Although there are not too many buyers for the idea of “complete sellout,” questions are bound to disturb the Foreign Office about the timing and the vision of a small set of people that is taking vital decisions on major policy issues without taking the Parliament into confidence. And Kashmir being the most important of determinants so far of Pakistan’s foreign policy, the policy shift would definitely raise fears. These fears are propounded when you look at the history of dialogue process that Indian establishment has always used to serve its own interests rather than actually walking the tough road to peace. This time too it appears unlikely to go in favour of Pakistan - certainly not to the extent that it will benefit Prime Minister Vajpayee. Mr Vajpayee’s Bhartiya Janta Party will present the Islamabad understanding in its imminent general elections as a vindication of its stand and polices towards Islamabad. Few bookies are going to take big odds against a BJP defeat. Look at how BJP will sell the deal during the election campaign : Kashmir issue stands frozen and will be discussed only after confidence is restored to Indian satisfaction; Islamabad has reneged on its principled stand on the relevance of UN Security Council Resolutions; bus, train, and air links stand restored; liberalization of trade, visa relaxation and the opening of bus service between Muzaffarabad-Srinagar is on the cards; Islamabad has accepted a ceasefire along the LoC and Siachin that will provide relief to 700,000 Indian troops which had been engaged in a nerve-wrecking insurgency for the last 15 years; and has also agreed “not to permit any territory under Pakistan’s control to be used to terrorism in any manner.” After getting so much from Pakistan and not offering anything major in return, Vajpayee happiness was palpable as he left for New Delhi Tuesday afternoon. The use of words about Musharraf’s pledge, in the Joint Press Statement issued in Islamabad, is interesting for they chart a shift from the hitherto stated position, said a retired Pakistan diplomat. It reads: “President Musharraf reassured Prime Minister Vajpayee that he will not permit any territory under Pakistan’s control to be used to support terrorism in any manner.” The words “territory” and “terrorism” consolidate India’s longstanding point of view and are in negation of Pakistan’s stand that Kashmir is a disputed region and not a “territory under Pakistan’s control,” also that it is not “terrorism” but “freedom struggle” that is going on in Kashmir. Commenting about this subtle but meaningful shift, a senior diplomat compared it with the much-maligned Lahore Accord. “There was neither any mention ‘terrorism’ nor ‘territory under Pakistan’s control.’ Also Pakistan did not give any reassurance to stop supporting what was then called “freedom struggle” and now “terrorism” in Kashmir. At that time, Pakistan had not even announced ceasefire along the LoC or Siachin. But the problem was that a political government was taking such major policy decisions without the consent of the khaki-dominated establishment,” he said. The policy shift was evident when Musharraf told a questioner on Tuesday that it was “too premature” to discuss solutions to contentious issues. Instead, a relaxed-looking President said in a peace-making tone that confidence between the two countries should be strengthened by confidence building measures such as trade and people to people contacts. A simple one-liner in the Joint Press Statement excludes the will and opinion of the Kashmiris saying the composite dialogue will lead peaceful settlement of all bilateral issues, including Jammu and Kashmir, “to the satisfaction of both sides.” Whither the satisfaction of Kashmiri people who have laid down 80,000 lives during the freedom struggle? Was not Kashmir an issue that was to be settled according to the wishes of the Kashmiris? As a diplomat put it: “It was a telephone call that made us take a U-turn on our strategic-depth-policy on Afghanistan. It is a telephone call that sealed the deal Tuesday on our jugular-vein policy on Kashmir.”Who made the call? To whom? There are too many questions that will be asked in the days to come. If accepting all Indian demands almost unilaterally, is what is good for Pakistan, then why did the nation have to go through Kargil and lose five precious years? Seems Prime Minister “Giveaway” has taken something substantial in return. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 7 2004, 05:04 AM
The Real Mccoy! SAARC GETS GOING BUT... AW YUK!! pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 7 2004, 05:11 AM
Hey Peregrine - how about a warning? Next time, if anything use the dolls pic taken during the Ayub's administration. It's close to dinner time yaar, have mercy wink.gif
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 7 2004, 05:14 AM Our DDM traitors getting wowed
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 7 2004, 05:41 AM
Hauma Hamiddha : You figures of (~30%) of Indian Moslems are actually neutral is understandable. It is at the moment difficult for Muslims to put the State ahead of Religion. This is painfully discernable for the Government here in the U.K. when some Muslims Servicemen refuse to take part in the latest Iraq War citing the reason “We will not go to War with Muslims” Another problem that has been noticed by the Natives in the UK is that British Passport holding Hindus, Sikhs, Jains or Parsis celebrate their Festivals with Joy but as British Nationals. In sharp contrast we have Muslims Celebrating Eid with a march past in the streets (no objection from anybody) with the Lotastaanis (Second and some Third Generation Born in Britain British Nationality) Proudly carrying the Lotastaani Flag as part of their celebration. As such the Government of India may have to start a programme so as to make All Indian including Indian Muslims aware of their Allegiance to the Indian Flag. This is being done in the USA and the British Government is considering the Idea here in the UK. Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 7 2004, 05:43 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 6 2004, 07:56 PM)
Just spoke to Shrileen about your request for a photograph of younger vintage and she said : Viren Jee to Bade Woh Hain Cheers
Aare bhai...aunty saying such things! To paraphrase what Waugh said to Patel yesterday - I was still in my nappies when she started her career. cool.gif Here ancient pic is found at top of all her articles.
Posted by: Viren Jan 7 2004, 05:44 AM STAR TRIBUNE (MN) Editorial: Pakistan's leader/Don't touch that dictator! Published January 6, 2004 It takes a bit of stretching to feel fondly toward a military strongman. But President Bush and Co. have managed it without straining a single muscle. Their dictator darling is Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf, and it's easy to see why: Without the self-appointed president's copious cooperation, the U.S. war on terrorism would be a shadow of its shaky self. And without Musharraf, Pakistan's nuclear weaponry might well fall into radical hands. In joining the U.S. quest to hunt down Al-Qaida operatives in the mountains of his own country and of neighboring Afghanistan, Musharraf has helped America score crucial wins -- and has nearly lost his life. Three times, in fact, in less than two years. The latest assassination attempt occurred in mid-December, when a huge bomb blew up under a Rawalpindi bridge just seconds after Musharraf's motorcade had passed. Like two earlier tries in Karachi, this last venture reflected growing public resentment toward the Pakistani leader's close ties with Washington. Awkward as it is to speak well of a dictator, Musharraf may in fact have his country's best interests at heart. As he's repeatedly argued, Pakistan's greatest security threat isn't India. Indeed, Musharraf deserves great credit for warming relations with the South Asian neighbor: In November he called a unilateral cease-fire in the interminable Kashmir squabble -- and Sunday welcomed Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee to Islamabad for the first peace talks between the nuclear rivals in two years. No, India is Pakistan's paper tiger. The greatest menace to the nation is actually the array of terrorist groups that has infiltrated Pakistani society. They resent Musharraf's Western tilt and his peacemaking impulses toward India. If ever they outmuscle him, there's no telling what havoc these militants might wreak with Pakistan's nuclear arms -- on India and on the rest of the world. Aware of the threat the radical groups pose to world stability, Musharraf has helped the United States hunt down more than 500 Al-Qaida militants from Pakistani hideouts. And the dictator has another reason to uproot terrorists, too: By lending America a hand now, Gen. Musharraf guarantees U.S. benevolence over the long haul. An indebted and impoverished country, half of whose citizens are illiterate, Pakistan can't afford to forgo American aid. But help may be forthcoming only if the Pakistani president manages to stay alive, which isn't at all a sure thing. Just last fall, Osama bin Laden's top henchman urged Pakistan's security forces to off Musharraf for "betraying Islam and letting America kill thousands of Afghans." If the next would-be assassin hits his mark, Pakistan would tumble toward political disaster. Musharraf's carefully cobbled mixture of military and quasi-democratic rule would certainly wash away, leaving room for Islamic fundamentalists eager to claim control. America would lose an indispensable ally in its quest against terrorism. And scores of millions of poor Pakistanis could lose the lifeline of U.S. aid. Which is why, for now at least, Americans should wish a wobbly dictator well. The coup that brought him to power may be less than admirable, as is his glancing regard for genuine democracy. But in an imperfect world in a perilous time, he may be the best dictator around.
Posted by: Ajgir Jan 7 2004, 06:18 PM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Jan 7 2004, 12:00 AM)
Welcome to the forum Ajgir smile.gif. So how is p d f biggrin.gif
rhytha, Thank you for your kind welcome. It is fine and a place to learn of the view of our esteemed neighbours. Of course they have a number of teenage keyboard bashers along with the usual number of vile abusers. However I do not flame or abuse so I have not had to suffer any vile abuse. There are a number of the “jingoistic” type also those who are brainwashed by the Pakistanized Education System as described by the various Articles in the Pakistani Media about the “School Curricula”. On the other hand there are a vast majority of members who do enter into serious dialogue without resorting to vile abuse. I uphold India’s Position but at the same time I do not begrudge the Pakistanis for their achievements. Peace
Posted by: Mudy Jan 8 2004, 12:18 AM Washington, Jan 7 (ANI): A former US Defence Department official has expressed apprehensions that in case Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf was killed, their nuclear arsenals might fall in the hands of dangerous people. Frank Gaffney, who now works with the Center for Security Policy (CSP), said this in an exclusive interview with ANI TV while referring to the two successive assassination bids on Musharraf in Rawalpindi. He said: "As recent events have indicated, we're one heartbeat away from probably chaos in Pakistan. General Musharraf has dodged two assassination attempts within the past month. And, I think it's pretty clear, when you move beyond him, most of the people in positions of influence certainly in the intelligence services, probably in the military and in many parts of the country, are in the sway of the radicals. And, it would stand to reason, as frightening as a prospect as this is, that if a guy who does want to work with the West and has made a commitment to stop proliferation, is no longer able to exercise whatever control he currently exercises, we're going to see more than just technology migrating into the hands of dangerous people, we're probably going to see Pakistani nuclear weapons making that same trip." "We often hear, when some government is doing something we'd just as soon they'd not do, that there are rogue elements in their countries, whether companies, scientists or bureaucrats, who are acting without permission. I guess that's possible, but my guess is, that's unlikely, that all of this was taking place, without, at least, at a minimum, the Pakistani intelligence services knowing what was going on and more likely, the government itself being aware and turning a blind eye towards it, if it wasn't authorizing the transfer of this technology in the first place." Gaffney also castigated the Pakistan administration for extending nuclear know how to Libya. The defence expert said: "Unfortunately, its no surprise that we're finding, now that we're getting insights into the Libyan program that it had ties to the Pakistani program. This is in fact a piece with obvious connections, with Pakistani scientists and I suspect, with the Pakistani government." He added: "Evidently, Pakistan turned to Libya, early on for funding for its own nuclear weapons program. So, its entirely understandable that Libya would wish to cash in on what it basically invested in early on would now pay dividends in actual nuclear weapons capability for Libya." Coming down heavily on Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf for not keeping a tab on nuclear export to Libya, he said: "Unfortunately, the evidence of Libya's access to Pakistan's nuclear technology does not reflect well on President Musharraf, who has been, a remarkably courageous and stand-up guy in the war against terror. But, whether he knew and he allowed that transfer of technology or he didn't know, it suggests that he is not entirely reliable in this war on terror." Frank Gaffney said the knowledge that Libya's nuclear technology likely came from Pakistan raises another ugly question, who else may have gotten their hands on it? While the U.S. waits for official confirmation as the investigation of Libya's nuclear capabilities continues, the Bush administration is refusing to answer what it terms are hypothetical questions on the scope of proliferation, instead emphasizing its efforts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. Pakistan was the likely source of Libya's nuclear technology. Libya decided in late 2003 to disclose its pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, including biological, chemical and nuclear. The confirmation, by unnamed American officials in the New York Times, has raised concerns about Pakistan's proliferation of nuclear technology. "Evidently, Pakistan turned to Libya, early on for funding for its own nuclear weapons program. So, its entirely understandable that Libya would wish to cash in on what it basically invested in early on would now pay dividends in actual nuclear weapons capability for Libya," he added. (ANI)
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 8 2004, 12:20 AM ISLAMABAD: The sycophantic response that Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee was treated to on his arrival in Islamabad had tarnished Pakistan's image, its former army chief declared today. Plus, the exclusion of the Kashmir issue from Saarc agenda was a big failure for Pakistan, former Chief of Army Staff Mirza Aslam Baig has said. "Pakistan should move ahead and strive to clinch its objectives without compromising its interests," the Online quoted Baig as saying here Tuesday. The former COAS termed the initiation of Pak-India dialogue as only a partial success of the diplomatic strategy of Pakistan. India is way ahead of Pakistan in diplomacy. To protect and further its economic interests New Delhi had come up with shrewd diplomatic moves. As a result Pakistan, he said, was helpless to even touch the issue of Kashmir during the meet. Baig said Pakistan should try to purge itself from the “smudge of terrorism”. India, he said, finalised the agenda of the conference. The Saarc Charter was not expanded despite a proposal from President Pervez Musharraf. According to Baig, Vajpayee who had “obtained votes on the basis of hostility with Pakistan in the previous elections”, was now set to get votes by advancing the agenda of friendship with Pakistan. Cheers
Posted by: Gill Jan 8 2004, 01:24 AM
Mr. Aslam Baig, A divisional commander during 1971 war let his words speak for themselves, which he wrote before leaving the POW mansion in India for Pakistan, "Revenge". Mr. Baig retired now speaks as if Pakistan is playing its cards from a postion of strength. He must look around and might have noticed that FBI and other US officials have even shown their presence at Pakistani airports. My retired general Baig, how can you even dream of chivaliry [sic] when your country is falling to pieces around you? Frankly it is you who is to blame for Pakistan's state of affairs, how nicely you have failed to ever mention your role as a CIA stooge. Common Baig, you are retired, go enjoy your last days with your grand children, you single word, is not forgotten by us Indians. Ciao cool.gif [Personal Hostility]
Posted by: k.ram Jan 8 2004, 01:44 AM
rvd by email, hence no URL --------------------------------- Don’t Be Fooled by Pakistan’s Tactics There is a tendency among the Indian politicians, and also the people, to get excited if the “other side” just hints at something nice. To put it squarely, if Pakistan just gives a hint of being friendly, for a change, the Indian leaders and people jump with joy that the era of close relations was round the corner. The recent announcements of Gen. Musharraf about a cease-fire, the UN resolution about a plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir, its clarification, and the desire for serious talks are some of the well known tactics employed by Pakistan. They are usually welcomed by a section of India, and the world. In the hope of achieving something quick, the Government of India often extends its hand of friendship farther, announces unilateral concessions, starts giving more facilities, and then gets bitten. Still the talks might be resumed, if only to meet with yet another failure. The recent events are no better than all the previous experiences. History is replete with India’s initiatives for peace and good relations with the neighbor that has attacked India three times, and has continuously waged a proxy war for about 14 years in Jammu and Kashmir. Cross- border terrorism has continued despite umpteen assurances by Pakistan’s military dictator, General Pervez Musharraf, to India and the United States, and the international community. He has never fulfilled any of the promises and still harps on his commitment to help the “struggle in Kashmir.” Actually, the Pakistanis are not reliable, truthful, honest or capable of being good and peaceful neighbors. Right from the time of Partition of the country, and despite the assurances of Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the Architect of Pakistan, Jammu and Kashmir was attacked, in 1947, one third was grabbed, Hindus were killed and driven out of Pakistan. Pakistan’s subsequent record is also nothing to be proud of. There were wars imposed on India by Pakistani rulers in 1965, 1971 and 1999 (Kargil), and a proxy war since 1989. After their third crushing defeat in 1971, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, came to Simla to meet with India’s triumphant Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. He was virtually on his knees. With his wily words and tricky tactics, Bhutto cunningly convinced Mrs. Gandhi of his sincerity and got 90,000 Pakistani prisoners of war released unconditionally (and without any compensation to India), got back a large part of its territory, captured by India in the war. He did not give anything substantial to India (nothing was bargained by India forcefully). He only signed the historic Simla Agreement, accepting that the matters would be discussed bilaterally, and decided amicably. It looked good on paper. No sooner Bhutto returned to Pakistan, got back his soldiers safely on Pakistani soil, and got possession of the captured land, he declared that Pakistan would continue to wage a war with India even for a thousand years to achieve the country’s objectives – among them the state of Jammu and Kashmir. India never stopped extending the hand of friendship even after that. Under Prime Minister Vajpayee, the BJP-led coalition government of India has, consistently, showed the olive branch to Pakistan, and got bullets instead. The much-touted Delhi-Lahore Bus Service, and earlier the Samjhauta Express, did not bring any samjhauta (agreement) to make the border peaceful, and the people on both the sides happy. India made other unilateral concessions such as giving Pakistan the Most Favored Nation treatment for trade, opening its doors for travel from Pakistan, over flights, exchange of artistes etc. What was the result? More cross border terrorism. Attack on India’s Parliament House, and, of course, earlier the Kargil War, a full-fledged war where India had to use its Air Force also to smash Pakistani armed infiltrators camps and hideouts, barracks and fortifications well inside Indian territory. Earlier this month, General Musharraf, who was the mastermind of the Kargil War, sprang a surprise and announced a ceasefire. India reciprocated willingly and readily. For sometime the guns seem to be silent on both the sides. However, it’s just possible that Pakistan has met its goals of sending enough armed terrorists across to India before the onset of real winters blocking the passes. India seems to fall for that ignoring earlier reports that at least 500 Jihadi Afghans have infiltrated from Pakistan, have made fortification on the Indian side for “winter warfare” in support of Pakistan. Probably that development was an encouragement for the military dictator. He did not disappoint his supporters, and those in the US who think he is a nice guy. Musharraf gave a statement to convey the view that he was keen to initiate a dialogue with India and would not insist on the plebiscite in Jammu and Kashmir as promised by India, and formally recommended by the UN. That was just last week. That was a signal to his staunch supporters, hard liners and his puppets in the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. They all denounced the “offer” and asked him to adhere to the original demand for following the UN resolution. The Indian government was, probably considering to match the General’s offer but the next day there was a “clarification” that Musharraf did not mean that. The plebiscite remark was meant just to initiate the talks. Musharraf said December 22, that “Pakistan would continue to support the Kashmiri struggle and no one could coerce it into giving up Kashmir.” He even had the audacity to ask India to show flexibility in resolving the “dispute.” A clever Musharraf went on to ask the Indian public to “influence their leaders to enter into a dialogue process.” Was it a signal for people like Kuldip Nayar to act? The Pakistani military ruler said that his proposal of “going beyond the stated position on Kashmir was aimed at starting the dialogue process.” He said that we should not talk about solutions at this stage. “The flexibility shown by Pakistan is to bring India to the negotiating table. Once talks begin then only we can talk about finding a solution,” the General said talking to “representatives” of the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir who came to Islamabad for a meeting. As usual, he tried to involve foreign countries, and commented that the world leaders and the international community are for peace in the South Asian region. He added that Pakistan would not allow India to sideline the Kashmir issue during the peace talks, and that he would be “the last man to abandon Pakistan’s principled stance on Kashmir.” It does not need much intelligence to understand what the “stance” of an invader could be. Musharraf’s remark about dropping Pakistan’s long-standing demand for a plebiscite in Kashmir had created a huge controversy that forced the Pakistani Foreign Office to issue a clarification. It said Musharraf had been quoted out of context. According to the Foreign Office spokesman, Masood Khan, Musharraf had only said the Kashmir issue could be resolved if both sides showed flexibility. A unilateral solution was not possible. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid clarified that Musharraf was ready to offer alternatives to a plebiscite. “What the President said was that we can think of certain other things, we have some alternative proposals,” Rashid was quoted as saying. No alternative proposals were offered. “They would be discussed with Indian leaders when ‘serious talks’ were held,” was all that was said. However, Rashid “clarified” that Pakistan still supported the UN resolution calling for a plebiscite in Kashmir. Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali also said that Pakistan would stick to UN resolutions (about the plebiscite). This may or may not mean a change in Pakistan’s policy. The important point for India is not to get excited about it. India, for all practical purposes, has given up on the plebiscite resolution since Pakistan has not fulfilled its obligation. In any case, nothing of that resolution is valid after more than half a century. It’s no longer practical, feasible, or fair. So, even if Pakistan says it has given up the demand for a plebiscite, that doesn’t mean anything, and doesn’t change anything. It doesn’t give Pakistan any claim to Kashmir. Musharraf is clever, manipulative and crafty. What he says, and does, are two entirely different things and an offer about plebiscite should not be taken seriously at all. It is meaningless. It may sound fine for foreigners, but India should know better. Musharraf was just on a fishing expedition. Let India and the Indian people not fall for it. They should give an appropriate reply it deserves – ignore it. By Yatindra Bhatnagar
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 8 2004, 03:21 PM KARACHI, Jan 7: An acute wheat shortage may compel the Sindh government to seek intervention of President Musharraf and Prime Minister Jamali to persuade Punjab to provide at least 300,000 tons of wheat to meet the requirements till the end of March next , when harvesting begins from the fresh crop. Sindh is reported to have been left with only 19,000 tons of wheat in official stocks. Its 65,000 tons pertaining to the year 2,000 crop is under litigation. This stock of wheat was auctioned off at a throwaway price to a commodity merchant of Ghotki in August last. Another 35,000 tons of wheat is said to be with the Karachi flour mills. Monthly wheat requirement in Karachi is 80,000 tons. With a demand for more than 400,000 tons till end March next, the Sindh government representatives are attending a high-level meeting of the food bureaucracy in Islamabad on Thursday with an SOS call for immediate release of 300,000 tons of wheat. The total government subsidy involved in the wheat trade in the province is estimated at Rs7.5 billion, which means roughly Rs20 million every day. Consumers get nothing from this huge subsidy that is shared as a booty by the unscrupulous millers, traders and brokers and the corrupt officials. Well-placed sources in Karachi insist that as far back as October last, the Sindh government anticipated a wheat crisis in the province and had requested the federal government to arrange 'on war footing' supply of 300,000 tons of wheat either from PASSCO or from Punjab. The sources disclosed that federal government was sounded a warning last October of a possible 'unprecedented price hike' of flour in the province. Again in December, the federal food and agricultural secretary was warned of the impending wheat crisis. The sources say the federal food secretary had promised to increase allocation from PASSCO to 100,000 tons and request Punjab to provide 200,000 tons. In response, only 65,000 tons of wheat was arranged from PASSCO. This is being done under strict terms and conditions including up-front payment. Of this 30,000 tons was released with inordinate delay and the remaining is now being transported every day. Sindh has deployed about 150 trucks (National Logistics Cell and private) every day to ensure delivery over 5,000 tons. "But the Punjab government has refused to accede to Sindh's request for supplying 200,000 tons," a leading miller close to the Sindh food establishment disclosed to Dawn on Wednesday. Officials of the Sindh food department are now holding a series of meetings every day with the millers and wholesale and retail traders to cope with the wheat shortage situation fraught with frightful consequences. Memories of wheat shortages and hunger marches and burning and looting of flour mills in many parts of the country during the 1997 spring still haunt the food managers of Sindh. Sindh hopes to get 300,000 tons from half a million tons of wheat being imported by PASSCO which has already floated a tender for 150,000 tons import. Since the imported wheat will start reaching the Karachi port by March, the Sindh government is reported to have suggested to Punjab that it start supplying wheat from its over two million stocks. "The borrowed wheat will be delivered to Punjab from the imported share," a source said. "Punjab literally dumped one million tons of wheat in Sindh a few years ago when it faced a problem of wheat abundance and Punjabi farmers were agitating on roads on the non-disposal of their huge stocks," a source recalled saying the 'forced deal' cost Sindh more than Rs5 billion in stocking, handling and financial costs. Quite a good quantity of the Punjab wheat was wasted because of non-availability of wheat storages in the province. There was some expectation that Punjab would respond positively to Sindh's request in acknowledgement of the gesture shown a few years ago. The wheat import programme is now being taken up at a time when international wheat prices are at the peak. As a rule distress import costs higher than the normal. Distress imports bring fortune to the global and Pakistani commodity operators and bring hardships and higher prices for consumers. But market analysts in Karachi wonder why the Trading Corporation of Pakistan (TCP) has been ignored for wheat import despite the fact that it has maintained a good track record of contingency imports and exports of sugar, pulses and other edible items. It is doubtful if PASSCO headed by a uniform person has any experience of imports. Also intriguing is the last-minute inclusion of the USA wheat in the tender. The imported wheat will push up Sindh's expenditure budget by at least three billion rupees in the current fiscal year and, in all likelihood, impair a modest development programme of the province. Flour prices in Karachi have been refixed at Rs12 a kilogram as against Rs10 a kilo. But flour has been sold at Rs16 and Rs 15 a kilogram in some places of the city. The Sindh government now claims to have worked out a self-regulated system, under which subsidised wheat will be given to only to those mills that are ready to sell flour at Rs11 a kilogram to wholesalers. Retailers will get flour at Rs11.25 and consumers will have to pay Rs12. There goes the Lotastaani Punjabi-Sindhi Bhai-Bhai. For sake of comparison would on of our India Based posters advise of the price of flour in India. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 8 2004, 09:57 PM
I think we should start fund to provide wheat to Sindh. I am touched and sad people are straving in Pakistan. God help them.
Posted by: Viren Jan 8 2004, 10:22 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 8 2004, 12:27 PM)
I think we should start fund to provide wheat to Sindh.
Who's "we" Mudy? India or US? If US, it's another matter. But India should do no such thing. It's a Pakistani internal problem and let them sort it out. It's time the Paki am janta raised it's head against the military-mulla combine which has had its grip on the nation since it's creation. Besides, I say we should give our full "moral and diplomatic support" to these Sindhis to fight their own battle. Let's see if any prominent Sindhis like Benazir dip into her Swiss accounts to help her constituents. Having followed the Indus Water Threads elsewhere in past, I for one am not surprised at this development. For years Pakjabis have been choking water supply to Sindh. We do the same and we'll see these Pakjabis cry uncle too.
Posted by: rhytha Jan 8 2004, 10:36 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 8 2004, 09:57 PM)
I think we should start fund to provide wheat to Sindh. I am touched and sad people are straving in Pakistan. God help them.
these small skrmishes are good developments for us in the long run.
Posted by: k.ram Jan 8 2004, 10:44 PM
In the mean time, our own SECULAR folks do this, instead of helping out Indian kids in the backyard. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif -------------- The Daily Times, December 5, 2003 India Based Foundation helps Pakistan's poor students THE South Asia Foundation (SAF), an Indian non-government organisation, has announced a scholarship grant for the region's brilliant but poor students studying in distance learning universities. Professor Saleema Hashmi, the head of SAF in Pakistan, and Pakistan's Allama Iqbal Open University (AIOU) Vice Chancellor Prof Syed Altaf Hussain, announced a $300,000 scholarship grant for 1,000 students of the AIOU. The grants will be paid in monthly stipends. Pakistani academics and students were delighted by the SAF Madanjeet Singh Scholarships. "For an Indian to donate so much money to Pakistani students is tremendous. It shows he has a vision for a prosperous and literate South Asia," said one academic. The SAF, a voluntary, secular, non-profit and non-political youth movement, was founded by UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador Madanjeet Singh, with the aim of promoting regional cooperation and peace through education, mutual understanding and friendship among the young people of South Asia. The SAF has arranged a large number of scholarships for talented young students across South Asia including group scholarships or gender-paired scholarships to two students each from eight South Asian countries, meant to help under-privileged students get a higher education. Mr Singh was born in Lahore on April 16, 1924. He did his post-graduation from Government College, Lahore. Partition obliged him to migrate to New Delhi, where he volunteered to work in a refugee camp, all the while preparing for the post-graduated.gif exams in chemistry at Delhi Polytechnic. He is also an artist and author of several books. He joined the Indian Foreign Service in 1953 and served as ambassador in Asia, South America, Africa and Europe before joining UNESCO in 1982. In recognition of his life-long devotion to the cause of communal harmony and peace, the UNESCO executive board set up a biannual UNESCO-Madanjeet Singh Prize for the Promotion of Tolerance and Non-Violence in 1995. Mr Singh founded the SAF in 2000 to which he has devoted a considerable amount of money generated by the sale of stocks of the Art Technology Group (ATG), an American software company set up by his son Jeet Singh, a trustee of the SAF.
Posted by: SSridhar Jan 8 2004, 10:58 PM
Hmm...and people want a land gas pipeline thro' TSP/Lotaastan
Posted by: rhytha Jan 8 2004, 11:01 PM
QUOTE (SSridhar @ Jan 8 2004, 10:58 PM)
Hmm...and people want a land gas pipeline thro' TSP/Lotaastan
Welcome Shri.SS tongue.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 8 2004, 11:04 PM
Who's "we" Mudy? India or US?
I am talking about Indian. And NRI indians, we should give food, diplomatic and moral support to hungry Sindhis of Sindhustan.
Posted by: rhytha Jan 9 2004, 12:02 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 8 2004, 11:04 PM)
Who's "we" Mudy? India or US?
I am talking about Indian. And NRI indians, we should give food, diplomatic and moral support to hungry Sindhis of Sindhustan.
Not now, need some more time, since the grudge has to build
Posted by: Viren Jan 9 2004, 12:09 AM
Mudy: Let's see if they are helping themselves first. Not possible for NRIs to contribute to Sindhis. The tentacles of the Paki Fauji Foundation which has converted a criminal enterprise into a golbal business player is spread far and way. Seriously doubt any monetary help to Sindhis from outside TSP will never reach them. Besides every penny going from US to TSP is monitored (thank God specool.gif ).
Posted by: Viren Jan 9 2004, 12:10 AM
Did TSP or Saudis help out Iranians after the earthquake incident. All I read is some US, Red Cross and GoI offering help (along with some other nations) - just wondering about those Saudis and Pakis?
Posted by: Mudy Jan 9 2004, 12:14 AM
TSP did send one plane load to Iran after 3 days of thinking whether to make public statement and condolence message to Iranian leader. No news from Saudi Govt.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 9 2004, 01:54 AM
I would like some opinion on the wisdom of Iran India Gas Pipeline through Pakistan. Can the resident experts gie their opinions. I think it is a disaster waiting to happen. No one in their right minds will put a vital resource such as energy in the hands of our awoved enemy.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 9 2004, 04:20 AM
QUOTE (SSridhar @ Jan 8 2004, 10:58 PM)
Hmm...and people want a land gas pipeline thro' TSP/Lotaastan
SSridhar : W E L C O M E Subuswamy. With all that we have discussed it seems that the DDM and the JNU Leftist are bent upon having the Lotastaanis control India's Energy Jugular Vein. Of course I am surprised with the 3 to 6 LNG Terminals coming up what is the need for a Land Pipe Line through Lotastaan. Would request we discuss further on Business & Economy Section - Energy Sector - Gas, Oil, Electricity etc. Thread. Cheers india.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 9 2004, 05:58 AM
user posted image Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 9 2004, 04:19 PM
Having said that, IMO, the only real Chanakian Vidhi enacted by Prime Minister “Giveaway” is that he has ensured Lotastaan remaining under the burden of the Hated Military Government for at least up to 2007 and may be another 5 to 15 Years beyond.
Ayaz Amir in his Article today in the Dawn seems to agree : Is the irony lost on anyone that when the Pakistan military flexed its muscles in Kargil in 1999, it handed the BJP an election victory and now when it is playing the peace card it is all set to contribute to another BJP victory? At this rate the BJP would be eager to see the Pakistan military in power forever. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 9 2004, 10:55 PM,001300270001.htm It is very imaginative on behalf of Kasuri that NDA/ABV will take any decision before election. He and Mushy very well know till election this peace train will travel after that if BJP win election , Mushy will try harder to stay in power but if Cong-I vanillia comes to power than it will be hunky dory for Paki Army. Let see.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 10 2004, 12:01 AM
ISLAMABAD : Pakistan ’s security establishment went into a tizzy after a private van made a vain bid to break the security cordon around President Pervez Musharraf’s convoy as it passed through the Islamabad highway on Thursday. An unidentified van attempted to move out of a petrol station and headed towards the Presidential convoy when it was on a highway connecting the capital with neighbouring Rawalpindi , the daily Dawn reported on Friday. ISLAMABAD : Suspected Islamic militants attacked a Pakistan army camp in a remote tribal region near the Afghan border, killing at least four soldiers and wounding another three, officials said. The attack occurred near the tribal town of Wana in South Waziristan , where Pakistani security forces launched an operation against "foreign terrorists" on Thursday Cheers
Posted by: k.ram Jan 10 2004, 12:12 AM
PCB expects to make a killing on India's tour January 09, 2004 23:14 IST The cash-strapped Pakistan Cricket Board could make a whopping US $20 million from the upcoming home series against traditional rivals India, PCB chief executive Ramiz Raja said. "I don't want to quote exact figures in terms of revenue generation because the series still has to be marketed," Raja told a press conference in Karachi. "But keeping in mind the guaranteed earnings from sale of television rights ($11 million dollars) I would say the figure could reach $20 million dollars," Raja told a news conference in Karachi. "
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 10 2004, 12:30 AM Four Pakistani soldiers have been killed in a rocket attack on a military camp in the country's western tribal region of South Waziristan. The attack occurred overnight shortly after the end of a major army operation against suspected foreign militants in the area along the Afghan border. The army detained 28 Wazir tribesmen but no foreigners. The semi-autonomous region has long been suspected of providing sanctuary to al-Qaeda and Taleban fighters. The BBC's Zaffar Abbas in Islamabad says that security has been stepped up in the region since the rocket attack. The four soldiers were killed after their residential quarters were hit by a rocket. Houses hit The army operation was launched on Thursday around Wana, the main town in South Waziristan, 40 kilometres (25 miles) from the Afghan border. It followed intelligence reports that some suspected foreign militants were hiding in the mountains near the town. Local officials said troops had come under fire and that helicopter gunships then struck five houses. No casualties were reported. Pakistan military spokesman Major-General Shaukat Sultan said some tribesman had been detained for questioning about the presence of foreign terrorists. Our correspondent says the army's presence in the autonomous tribal region has annoyed many pro-Taleban tribesmen and the local authorities believe the rocket attack could be the work of such elements. Last year, the Pakistani military carried out two major operations in South Waziristan. The fiercest one was in October, when eight suspected militants and two troops were killed. One of those killed was later identified as Hasan Mahsum, a leader of a Chinese Islamic militant movement. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 10 2004, 12:35 AM
Should we call this begining of Civil War in Pakistan/LOTASTAAN?
Posted by: Krishna Jan 10 2004, 12:41 AM
QUOTE (k.ram @ Jan 9 2004, 12:42 PM)
PCB expects to make a killing on India's tour
And this $20 million gonna be used to buy bullets to kill us kafirs. How f***in nice! furious.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 10 2004, 01:11 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 10 2004, 12:35 AM)
Should we call this begining of Civil War in Pakistan/LOTASTAAN?
Posted by: Krishna Jan 10 2004, 03:16 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 9 2004, 01:41 PM)
Insh-PA! Insh-RAPE! Insh-Madrassahs!
Posted by: Viren Jan 10 2004, 03:42 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 9 2004, 03:05 PM)
Should we call this begining of Civil War in Pakistan/LOTASTAAN?'s called 'friendly fire' pakee.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 10 2004, 10:44 PM BRUSSELS: In a move to expedite the process of resolving the Kashmir imbroglio, close confidantes of Prime Minister Vajpayee and President Prevez Musharraf have launched a persuasion campaign to encourage India and Pakistan through behind-the-scene diplomatic manoeuvres to replace their respective Ambassadors in Washington. Such envisaged changes are expected to take place by June this year. The confidantes of top Indian and Pakistani leaders, being tipped for Ambassadorial slots in Washington, are believed to possess exquisite capacity of building high profile rapport with US national security advisor Dr Condoleezza Rice, who is constantly in touch with the peace process in South Asia, a Western diplomatic source told The News. “The US has neither given a road map to resolve the Kashmir issue nor it intends to do so as President Bush believes that the conflict should be settled by India and Pakistan bilaterally to the satisfaction of Kashmiri people”, the source said, adding, “however, Washington is definitely interested in introducing some mechanism to mothball the step by step achievements of the peace process”. Indian and Pakistani Ambassadors in Washington would be replaced by June as the major world powers want that a resolution of the Kashmir dispute acceptable to India, Pakistan and Kashmiris should take some concrete shape after the Lok Sabha elections in India and before President Pervez Musharraf jettisons his military uniform, the diplomat said. He claimed, “Washington and London are determined to facilitate dialogue between India and Pakistan in such a way that more than half a century old Kashmir dispute is resolved by 2005”. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 11 2004, 09:04 AM ... Let us just take history, which in itself is not a subject taught to our non-elite youthful citizens but forms part of what is known erroneously as Pakistan Studies. The Annual Review for 2002-3 on the State of Education recently released by the Social Policy and Development Centre of Karachi (dealt with in detail by our former finance wizard Sartaj Aziz on the opposite page of this newspaper on January 6) puts it rather well and it makes most depressing reading []. Fifty-four pages of the Pakistan Studies textbook is devoted to what is termed history. The entire history of the region prior to 712 AD is dispensed with - it does not exist. History, to the larger majority of the few children who go to school, begins with the arrival of the Muslims in the subcontinent, though Mohammed bin Qasim is not mentioned and to all intents and purposes never existed. The text then leaps forward 300 years and recounts the violent and bloody incursions made by Mahmud of Ghazni into Punjab. After him, comes the listing of a string of Sufi saints beginning with Islam Shaikh Islam Lahori to Shah Abdul Latif Bhattai covering a 700-year period up to 1700 AD. The text then goes into reverse gear, travelling backwards 500 years to Qutubuddin Aibak. The glorious Moghul period, as far as our education ministry and the provincial textbook boards are concerned, began with Emperor Aurangzeb. He had no predecessors. No reasons for or description of the rise and downfall of the empire are given. Nadir Shah, Shah Waliullah Dehlavi, Syed Ahmad Braelvi are briefly mentioned and they conclude the history of the region prior to the Pakistan movement. The entire era of the East India Company and the British Empire are lost in space, not even the stuff of fairy tales. Nothing is taught on the renaissance and rise of the western world. Even the Pakistan movement is diluted and selective, omitting far more than it includes. The struggle for independence spanning a half-century consists of : the founding of the Muslim League, the founding of the college at Aligarh, the Khilafat movement, the Nehru report, Jinnah's Fourteen Points, the Government of India Act (said to be the 'new constitution'), the 1937 elections, the 1940 Resolution, the 1946 elections, the Cabinet Mission plan, and the establishment of Pakistan. Apart from the Fourteen Points, everything else is dealt with in a cursory manner. Then there are nine pages covering post-1947 Pakistan right up to the 2002 elections. The constitution-making process is listed, as are the military takeovers and dismissals of the assemblies. Our so-called educated children of the masses are purposefully kept ignorant of over a thousand years of history of their own region. They have no idea of any political, social or economic interplay at any point of time, nor do they have any clue as to why a constitution was made, why there were elections and why there have been regular military takeovers. They are kept ignorant of the reasons for the loss of half the country - they merely know it happened. To deprive people of any knowledge of, or truth about, the history, of their country and that of the world at large, is to hamstring them for life. And with the stress put on an exaggerated violence-prone religiosity, the warping of their minds is guaranteed. ...
Posted by: Mudy Jan 11 2004, 11:02 PM,00050002.htm Pakistani police have detained a local intelligence official for allegedly tipping off the two suicide bombers who tried to crash their explosive-laden vehicles into President Pervez Musharraf's convoy at Rawalpindi on Christmas day. Muhammad Naeem, an official of the Islamabad Special Branch who was detailed for the security of Musharraf at the Convention Centre where he addressed a meeting on science and technology on December 25 in Islamabad, reportedly tipped off the timing of the departure of the Presidential convoy to the suicide bombers over his cell phone. Inspector General of Police (IGP) Islamabad Fiaz Ahmad Khan Toru said the intelligence operative was in touch with the suicide attackers over his mobile phone, which made him a suspect. "He must be inquired and interrogated about the controversial call," Toru was quoted as saying by local daily The News. Naeem was traced by the investigators as they recovered the chip of the mobile phone used by one of the suicide bombers who were killed while attempting to ram their explosives-laden vehicles into Musharraf's convoy, killing themselves and 12 others. Musharraf survived another attempt on his life on December 14 when a road bridge was blasted near Rawalpindi seconds after his convoy passed over it. Naeem, who was detained on December 28, was in touch with the suicide attacker Jamil, the report said adding that he had bought a new motorbike few days before the assassination attempt. Investigators believe that his detention may lead to clues about those who masterminded and executed the suicide attack on President Musharraf, the newspaper said. "There is evidence which prove links between the first attempt on President's life on December 14 at the Chaklala Bridge near Ammar Chowk and the second attempt at Jhanda Chichi Chowk on December 25," an official said. As many as 109 calls dialled to or from the suicide bombers, were detected during the investigation and all of them were being scrutinised with great care. Significantly the duration of all the calls was of three seconds except one of 12 seconds. "We have made a headway to the network through these calls", the official said. Based on the mobile calls, another suspect, Syed Ghulam Yasin Bokhari was reported to have been arrested from Bahawalpur. Investigators say he used to provide manpower and training to terrorists and is reported to be a member of a banned group. "We are cruising towards the leading terrorists who masterminded the assassination plan and will hit them soon," the report quoted the official as saying. The investigative agencies have taken into custody 50 suspects, including some intelligence officials, out of which 12 could provide useful information to the persons involved in the attacks, he said. The first major breakthrough in the case came when police recovered the severed heads of both the suicide attackers intact. Of this one was identified as Mumahhamd Jamil, a member of the banned militant groups Jaish-e- Muhammad, hailing from Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK). Intelligence agencies are also compiling a detailed record of police officials deployed on the routes of President's convoy, another source said. The investigators also interrogated a lady telephone operator of Pakistan Telecommunication Corporation who received a call from one of the suicide bombers but she was later let off. Naeem's detention brings forth fears of the involvement of insiders from Pakistan's intelligence and military establishment in the attacks against Musharraf.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 12 2004, 02:34 AM
Mazaa He Mazaa : Lotastaani Breast Beating : There is a sharp division of opinion in Pakistan about the outcome of the talks held between President Musharraf and Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee. President Musharraf, Prime Minister Zafarullah Jamali, Foreign Minister, Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri, Ch Shujat Hussain and their followers term the outcome a breakthrough and a good beginning. The opposition, particularly the PML(N) leaders call it a sellout. Their view is based on the government’s willingness to abandon the UN Resolutions on Kashmir which recognise the disputed nature of the state and give the people of Kashmir the right to decide their own future. They argue that by setting aside the UN Resolutions Pakistan would lose its legitimacy as a lawful party to the dispute and by abandoning the UN proposed plebiscite it has deprived the people of Kashmir of their basic human right of self-determination. They also say that in the Lahore Declaration, signed by their leader Mian Nawaz Sharif and Mr Vajpayee, no such retreat from the legal and moral rights of Pakistan and the people of Kashmir was implied and had that process been allowed to develop further by the military a much better deal with India could have been secured. This argument, cogent enough as it looks has only one weakness. That is the hope that India would have eventually agreed either to a plebiscite or something close to it, overlooking the fact that it being in control of the bulk of Kashmir had no incentive or compelling reason to do so. That begs the question: whether India now has an incentive to do so, particularly when Pakistan itself is unwilling to press for a plebiscite. Before one examines that one will have to factor in the loyalties of the PML(N) leaders for Mian Nawaz Sharif and of the PPP leaders for Madam Benazir Bhutto, both of whom have a personal aversion to President Musharraf. On the other hand those who say that there has since been a change of heart in India mention certain happenings inside and outside India which may have been responsible for it. Beginning with the outside influences let us look at the attitude of the other countries to the Kashmir issue. The US, UK and the European Union which had in the past considered Kashmir as an ‘old’ and forgotten problem which Pakistan kept raising (according to them, unnecessarily) have now come to see it as a dangerous flashpoint and started taking more interest in its resolution. India’s interest lay in keeping the issue dormant, if not dead. Its becoming alive was not in India’s interest. To keep it dormant India worked on two fronts. On the diplomatic front it dubbed Pakistan a non-democratic country and questioned its credibility to raise the issue of plebiscite and second it let loose a reign of terror in Kashmir to crush the freedom movement so that when the peace of a graveyard was achieved it could show to the world that the people of Kashmir were happy with the Indian rule. Neither move proved effective enough to remove Kashmir from the centrestage of the pressure that gradually grew on India. However, Pakistan too was repeatedly pressurised to end ‘cross-border terrorism’. By linking ‘cross-border terrorism’ to the political instability in Kashmir, India did manage to blunt the thrust of the foreign pressure against itself to some extent but the vast number of human rights violations committed by its troops against the Kashmiris partially neutralised the gain that India had otherwise hoped to get from its counter-moves. At the back of these diplomatic gains and losses, nevertheless there loomed that menacing shadow of a nuclear conflagration which kept the world in jitters. And that prevented all foreign powers to back off from South Asia. How much did this foreign pressure contribute to the Islamabad Vajpayee-Musharraf meeting, is difficult to quantify but there were also other conducive factors for peace at work. One was, according to the Indian leaders, a sea change in public opinion on both sides. In India, the war-lobby gradually started losing ground to the peace-lobby, or at least the moderation lobby, led mostly by the business community. It began to be realised in opinion-making circles that India would never achieve its full economic strength by having a hostile neighbour next door, which was always dragging it down. In the early stages of this transition from war to peace Mr Vajpayee felt a bit isolated. This is graphically illustrated by what happened at Agra. A draft agreement prepared by his Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh and approved by him personally, was rejected by the party hawks, led by Mr L.K. Advani. Not only that, a strong military posture was advocated by this lobby to cow down Pakistan. An excuse was found later and the military presence in Kashmir and on Pakistan’s borders was increased manifold. A limited war was advocated to give Pakistan a bloody nose but not a body blow, so that it is not forced to resort to its nuclear option. The people of India were brainwashed to believe that it would be a just and short war and its success was guaranteed. If things went wrong and a few thousand soldiers died without bringing about the desired result, it would be just a minor miscalculation. Better luck next time. But no war took place and about two thousand soldiers died anyway. So what? India can afford to lose many more. Because of the world opinion, or because of better sense having prevailed, the hawks had second thoughts after that. They would have preferred a ‘no war no peace’ situation but saner voices came to be heard, among them was the voice of Mr Atal Behari Vajpayee. Mr Advani’s frustration with Mr Vajpayee found expression in such profound thoughts as: how about a confederation between India and Pakistan? The idea having evoked only laughter, Mr Vajpayee had to water it down to ‘open borders, free trade, common security,’ etc. Mr Kuldip Nayyar, the well-known Indian columnist recently described Mr Advani’s role as that of a despoiler of whatever bonds of peace Mr Vajpayee tries to stitch together. That was before Mr Vajpayee’s visit to Islamabad. This time around Mr Vajpayee took care to keep Mr Advani on board on whatever talks he had with President Musharraf and Mr Jamali. He obviously did not want a repeat of Agra where Advani turned the tables on him. Whether this mutual initiative of Pakistan and India will bear fruit remains to be seen but the past history of India concerning honouring agreements between the two countries is not encouraging. It will be recalled that an agreement about the dispute on Siachen between Pakistan and India was reached but India backed out of it when no progress was made on other disputes. The result was Kargil. Therefore, one can only keep one’s fingers crossed. Cheers
Posted by: Kaushal Jan 12 2004, 06:04 AM
The above article shows how far out of touch the Paki elite are from ground reality. The ground reality is that India has seven times the GDP of TSP and can easily outspend the Pakis on weapons for years to come. As time passes India will accumulate more and more nuclear weapons while augmenting its conventional armed forces with high tech . It will increasingly put to use its new found power in IT to marry Russian weapons technology with its own homegrown expertise in control systems and software. In the meanwhile the economy continues to grow at a blistering 7 to 8% pace. The increase in the Indian federal budget is now far greater than the combined total of the Paki defense budget. The real question is why should India make any concessions at all ? The question to ponder for the Pakis is whether peace is worth it for its own sake. They are deluding themselves that India will make any concessions whatsoever on J&K
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jan 12 2004, 07:50 AM
Kaushal, the annual increase in Indian GDP is equal to total Pakistani GDP I hope they keep up the arms race for a few years, they will implode like the USSR In Pakistan, Literacy is decreasing India has 97 X the number of college graduated.gifs as Pakistan
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 12 2004, 02:21 PM
Kaushal & G.Subramanian : Lotastaani Economy’s downward spiral due to its continued Huge Military spending is evidnced from the heave decrease in Lotastaani per capita income vis-à-vis the Indian per capita income over the last 10-15 Years. I believe in late Eighties the Lotastaani per capita income was much higher than India’s. Is there any way that we can find out what was the per capita income of both countries for the period 1985 to 1995? Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 12 2004, 02:28 PM LAHORE, Jan 11: PML-N patron Nawaz Sharif has alleged the rulers are pushing the country towards civil war by conducting one after another military operations in tribal areas without taking parliament into confidence. Talking to a party leader over phone from Jeddah on Sunday, the former prime minister said US secretary of state's statement that "Wana operation has been conducted on our suggestion" speaks volumes of the Pakistan's sovereignty situation under Gen Musharraf's rule. Terming death of four armymen and a tribesman in Wana a national tragedy, he alleged that policies of the present government were converting Pakistan Army into mercenary soldiers. He was also critical of unilateral ceasefire on the Line of Control where India was taking advantage of the concession and was erecting a fence by violating international law. He said established national stance on Kashmir was being sacrificed as Islamabad facing isolation on diplomatic front. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 12 2004, 03:12 PM
Cross posted on the J&K Thread ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday called India to prove sincerity and stop fencing of the Line of Control (LoC), dividing the two parts of Kashmir region. Talking to IRNA, Director General of Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Major General Shaukat Sultan said Indian Army has taken advantage of the on-going ceasefire at the LoC. "We expect New Delhi to prove its sincerity in the bilateral peace process and bring its fencing of the line to a halt." The spokesman also said that the LoC fencing was in violation of the United Nations resolutions as well as the agreements reached earlier between Islamabad and New Delhi. "Pakistan wishes that the current ceasefire would be followed by permanent peace, but violation of the ceasefire in form of fencing is an impediment in the process," he added. To a question, however, Maj-Gen Sultan confirmed that there was no violation of the recent ceasefire. "Both the countries are observing it since November 26." The former ceasefire line was named LoC under the Simla Agreement in 1972. UN observer offices were set up in Srinagar, Muzaffarabad and Rawalpindi to monitor it. The general expressed the optimism that owing to the "positive approach" of both countries’ leadership, the fencing issue would be resolved through dialogue. "The positive approach of the leaders and their meetings were very effective for reduction of tension along the borders of the two countries," Sultan added. Indian and Pakistani border commanders met last month after a two-year suspension and agreed on restoring routine joint monitoring of the border and bilateral meetings. The monitoring will be on a daily basis and the meetings will hold monthly, he said. Cheers
Posted by: Dr. S. Kalyan Jan 12 2004, 04:22 PM
Musharraf's Secret Understanding With India Over Kashmir January 8, 2004 Analysis According to intelligence sources close to FP, President Parvez Musharraf and his inner circle used the SAARC summit as a forum for direct and secret meetings with India’s top brass. This was in order to consolidate a US inspired secret agreement to smooth the path for Pakistan in accepting Kashmir as an integral part of India. Musharraf announced the deal after a closed meeting with Vajpayee on Tuesday 6th January, 2004 when he said; “History has been made…The string that was broken at Agra has been repaired in Islamabad” After a phone conversation the next morning with Vajpayee, Musharraf confirmed that; “The deal was sealed” The understanding is being kept secret as it has vindicated India’s position completely and would be classed by many in Pakistan as a sell out to India, provoking a violent backlash from the jihadists and hardline military elements that have already targeted an assassination attempt on Musharraf. A cautious, secretive and incremental process has been adopted in order for India and Pakistan to work jointly in eliminating the threats to the understanding. Officials from Pakistan and India were very nervous as regards a leak. In order to cloud speculation on the secret deal, attention was diverted onto statements regarding confidence building measures and “composite dialogues”. Although it is clear to both India and Pakistan that talk of CBM’s and composite dialogues is symbolic and the intended normalisation cannot occur without a deal on Kashmir. The Indians were interested in concluding the steps required in order to cement the peace on their terms. According to Indian External Affairs MinisterYaswant Sinha; “We are interested in the success of a certain process, and if you are interested in the success of the same process, you have to act responsibly”. India achieved this in what was announced in the cautiously drafted India-Pakistan Joint Statement on Dialogue soon after the meeting between Musharraf and Vajpayee. “President Musharraf reassured Prime Minister Vajpayee that he will not permit any territory under Pakistan’s control to be used to support terrorism in any manner” The use of the words “territory” consolidated India’s position that Kashmir is its integral part and negated Pakistan’s stand that Kashmir is a disputed region and “not a territory under Pakistan’s control”. The use of the word “terrorism” validated India’s claims of cross-border terrorism and negated Pakistan’s claims that it is not “terrorism” but a “freedom struggle” that is occurring in Kashmir. In terms of the specific steps to be taken in order to create the conditions for an announcement on Kashmir, this is related to eliminating and neutralising those elements that would oppose such a conclusion on Kashmir. Hence according to the Joint Statement: “Prime Minister Vajpayee said that in order to take forward and sustain the dialogue process, violence, terrorism and hostility must be prevented” Measures to be taken by both India and Pakistan in dealing with these groups would be achieved through intelligence sharing, secret diplomatic channels, extradition of jihadists and the like. This would be aided by the Protocol on Terrorism adopted at the SAARC summit on 6th January, 2004, which formalises intelligence sharing and monitoring the funding of groups regarded as terrorists. The formulation of measures for joint co-operation on cross border intelligence sharing and an understanding of Musharraf’s stability, was the reason for Vajpayee’s key National Security Advisor, Brajesh Mishra’s unannounced and secretive visits to Pakistani military and intelligence officials. Brajesh Mishra confirmed this after the Joint Declaration when he said; “There is certainly a likelihood to fight terrorism together” Musharraf is not unique amongst the Pakistani leaders to have done a u-turn on its policy and shared intelligence information on its assets with India. Benazir Bhutto whilst in government also handed over to the Indian authorities a list of Pakistani backed, Sikh separatists in Punjab in order to reverse Gen.Zia’s policy. Musharraf has given India full assistance and assurance in dealing with the obstacles to a final declaration on Kashmir. Yaswant Sinha confirmed this when he said; “There is an assurance. There is a certain situation on the ground. We are proceeding on the basis of the assurance and the ground situation as we see it”. Assurances of the ground situation means, eliminating or neutralising the radical Islamists and kashmiri jihadists groups on Pakistan’s side of the border. This would also involve supplying intelligence to India as regards the bases of the jihadists and groups, which have been controlled by Pakistan and are involved in fomenting violence in Kashmir. According to the Joint Statement: “President Musharraf reassured Prime Minister Vajpayee that he will not permit any territory under Pakistan’s control to be used to support terrorism in any manner” Answering questions on cross-border terrorism and whether the sudden ceasefire on the LOC can extend to the Kashmir Valley. Musharraf said: “I can never guarantee anything there, however one could facilitate things” As regards the Islamic radicals, Musharraf said; “We will adopt more measures to curb religious extremism…We have to take to task every extremist…No extremism will be allowed in Pakistan” The Indian delegation left Islamabad knowing that they had secured all their demands and the BJP was now in a strong position to take on the elections. Fearing the backlash and instability for Musharraf, India was careful not to undermine its partner and was keen to present the dialogue as a victory for both sides. The Joint Statement declared; “The two leaders are confident that the resumption of a composite dialogue will lead to peaceful settlement of all bilateral issues, including Jammu and Kashmir, to the satisfaction of both sides”. Brajesh Mishra said; “Please don’t look at it as victory of one side over the other. It is a victory for peace and prosperity. It is a victory for the people of Pakistan and India. It’s a win-win situation for all of us” The secret deal between Musharraf , the BJP leadership and the US on Kashmir, is a giant step by Musharraf in smoothing the path for Vajpayee. This is so that Vapayee may deliver India into the arms of the US and its plan to build it as a regional power against China. Only Pakistan and specifically the Kashmir issue stand in the way of Indian regional supremacy. The process of commencing dialogue as announced in February, 2004, will centre around the need to evaluate the ground situation and assess the success of the cooperation between India and Pakistan on intelligence sharing and in eliminating the jihadist problem for India in Kashmir. With the Kashmiri umbrella organisation, the All Parties Hurriyet Conference (APHC) leadership already having accommodated the idea of accepting Indian sovereignty, there was no need for Pakistan and India to include the Kashmiris in the process and therefore negotiations have taken a bi-lateral course. Musharraf is likely to target a purge and major reshuffle in the military and intelligence services as a first step to eradicating the threat to himself and the source of support to the jihadists in Kashmir. With the MMA bought out by the government in order to protect Musharraf and rubber stamp the Kashmir deal, there is likely to be a further crack down on Islamist radical groups. Having already survived an assassination attempt Musharraf is anticipating a backlash as a result of the peace bid with India, which he expressed at the summit when he said; “I do believe there will be a fall out from the extremists” However, he remains fiercely loyal to the US plan for Pakistan and the region. The only other parallel to match his loyalty to US policies was Sadaat of Egypt and his deal with Israel at Camp David. Musharraf has effectively negotiated the Camp David of South Asia on Kashmir. The question is whether Musharraf will survive it. Why India needs Musharraf January 12, 2004 It is a matter of eternal regret that foreign policy is not dependant on the sound bites of either the vegetable sellers or fashion designers of Islamabad. Had it been so, India would have coupled its joy over Finance Minister Jaswant Singh's pre-election bonanza with the additional reassurance that the carefully vetted voices for peace we heard on the news channels constituted the definitive Pakistani perception of what President Pervez Musharraf called his 'deal' with Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee. It is a 'deal' India has absolutely no reason to be displeased with. The sticking point at the Agra summit in 2001 was India's insistence that Pakistan repudiate the jihadi terrorism mounted from camps across the Line of Control. Now, with the US breathing down its neck for its undercover export of nuclear technology to rogue regimes, Pakistan was undeniably beleaguered. It needed a respite, a little bit of breathing space. Forever the guerrilla commander in search of openings and opportunities, Musharraf knew that this was the moment to effect a retreat. India has reason to be grateful to both Vajpayee and Principal Secretary Brajesh Mishra that they seized the moment. Diplomatic niceties and a sense of generosity have propelled India's assertion that the joint statement that commits Pakistan to ending State-sponsored terrorism in return for a composite dialogue on all outstanding bilateral issues is a win-win for both sides. Yet the fact remains that this agreement to allow negotiations to prevail over armed conflict constitutes a negation of everything Pakistan has stood for since the Kashmir valley erupted in 1989. It is a U-turn that is far more awesome in scope than Musharraf's decision after 9/11 to abandon the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. If the joint statement does mark a change, history will view Vajpayee's Isamabad visit in the same light as President Nixon's journey to Beijing and Menachem Begin's hop to Cairo. Of course, it is unlikely that the manifestations of a Pakistani retreat are going to be felt immediately. Musharraf's comment that he will not accept the LoC as the international border is an early indication that Pakistan will want to be seen to shift the focus from terrorist strikes to hard bargaining. It is significant that the pro-Pakistan faction of the Hurriyat Conference, led by Syed Ali Shah Geelani, has also chosen to shift to a negotiating mode. Yet, this is not the time to add enduring peace to the growing 'feel better' mood that is overwhelming the country. Vajpayee and Mishra didn't take any great risk by limiting the final bout of negotiations to themselves. At best, only Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani and External Affairs Minister Yashwant Sinha were in the loop. After all, what India was seeking was completely in line with existing policy. The only real differences within the BJP was over the question of beginning serious negotiations with Musharraf now or after the general election had given Vajpayee a renewed mandate. In short, the debate within India were centred on tactics and the extent of accommodation. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said of Pakistan. All indications suggest that the decision to disavow terrorism in Kashmir was taken by General Musharraf personally, with Tariq Aziz and General Hamid Javed being the only others involved. The wider military establishment, the all-powerful ISI and the fledgling political authority were not consulted. It is safe to hazard the guess that had the consultation process been enlarged, Vajpayee would have returned from Islamabad without anything more than the multilateral free trade agreement. Last month, when Musharraf first indicated on an interview to BBC that he was willing to 'set aside' the 1948 UN Security Council resolution, there was the spectacle of his words being disowned by the rest of the Pakistani establishment. It may sound deliciously ironic, but it cannot be denied that Musharraf demonstrated exemplary statesmanship in Islamabad last week. At the same time, he has exposed himself to grave risks. Unless he is able to sell the 'deal' with Vajpayee to the wider military establishment in Pakistan, including the ISI that operates a parallel State apparatus, India cannot afford to let its guard down. Let us not forget that Nawaz Sharif too displayed amazing courage by negotiating the Lahore agreement with Vajpayee in 1999. Pakistani sources have indicated that the formal agreement was also supplemented by an unwritten understanding that Kashmir would be put on the backburner. This may explain why Sharif was brutally undermined and then ignominiously ousted by a military establishment that believed Kashmir could be liberated by war and terrorism. It was Musharraf who was the chief conspirator against his prime minister. It is possible that the changed reality of the post-9/11 world has dawned on the whole of Pakistan but it would be risky to proceed on the assumption it has. As yet, there is no evidence to suggest that there has been a fundamental review of Pakistan's broader strategic goals in Kashmir. The shift cannot happen overnight. All India needs to constantly monitor is that a beginning has been made by Pakistan to accommodate the international revulsion against terrorism. In addition, Musharraf has the reputation of being an Artful Dodger who is immodest enough to claim he has nine lives. That claim will be tested in the coming months. For the moment, India will have to cautiously assess whether the trust reposed in Musharraf's ability to stick to the letter and spirit of the Islamabad agreement is justified. For the past two years, India has berated the US for reposing exaggerated faith in Musharraf's ability to steer Pakistan away from jihadi madness. After last week's agreement, India too has developed a vested interest in his political survival. Swapan Dasgupta
Posted by: SSridhar Jan 12 2004, 06:21 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 12 2004, 02:21 PM)
Kaushal & G.Subramanian : Is there any way that we can find out what was the per capita income of both countries for the period 1985 to 1995? Cheers
Peregrine, here is an article from the Dawn which appeared a few months back comapring the Indian and TSP economy.
India overtakes Pakistan: time for a wake-up call By S. Akbar Zaidi There is a story which has gained the status of a folklore. It goes something like this. In the early 1960s, Pakistan was seen as a model of economic development around the world , and there was much praise for the way the economy was progressing. It has been suggested by numerous economists and bureaucrats, that many countries sought to emulate Pakistan's economic planning strategy and one of them, South Korea, ended up copying Pakistan's Second Five Year Plan (1960-65). Those who recount this story argue that in the early 1960s, Pakistan's and Korea's per capita incomes were more or less equal. On account of following that strategy, it is said, Korea ended up among the more developed of the developing countries, with a GDP per capita greater than $8,000 today; Pakistan's GDP per capita is still only $460. Even if this story is not entirely true, it does reveal a great deal of truth in the fact that Pakistan has been left behind in terms of economic development, by numerous countries. Many bureaucrats, planners and economists who have always felt the need to be overly patriotic, have reluctantly accepted the fact that many of the East Asian countries - the newly industrialized countries, as they were once called - have advanced to near developed country status. This they have argued is a recognized fact - the Asian Miracle - and Pakistan should learn its lessons but not feel too discouraged by this trend. After all, it has always been maintained, Pakistan is well ahead in South Asia, and is the most developed of the three most populous countries in the region. These Pakistani patriots have been particularly pleased that our growth rate and per capita incomes are way ahead of India. Little do they know, this is no longer true, and India has not just overtaken Pakistan, but is set to increase the difference between the two. Pakistan has surely been left behind, a fact that has major repercussions on the political economy of Pakistan and of the region as a whole. In 1990, both Pakistan and India had identical per capita incomes, at $390 each; in 2001 for which the latest figures are available, Pakistan's per capita income was $420, and India's $460. It is probable, given Pakistan's poor economic performance compared to India's these last two years, that the difference has widened further. What is more suggestive, and worrying for Pakistan, is the comparison between India and Pakistan in terms of per capita income when we use a far more useful measure called the Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) figures. These PPP comparisons allow a far better assessment of standard of living in terms of what people can actually purchase equalising for differences in prices. Pakistan's per capita PPP income in 1990 was $1360, while India's was $ 1380. In 2001, Pakistan's per capita PPP had risen to $ 1860, a rise of $500 or 37 per cent. India's PPP per capita in this decade had more than doubled and rose to $2820 per capita. Indeed, a highly impressive achievement. This critical indicator, that of the per capita income, is only the first of numerous social and economic indicators which show the growing difference between India and Pakistan during the 1990s, a trend which has increased further these last three years, and is going to continue to increase, for some considerable time to come into the future. Some additional figures will support this claim. What is particularly interesting is, that in the decade 1980-90, Pakistan's economic performance measured in terms of growth rates in agriculture, industry, merchandise exports, and even GDP was better than that of India. In the 1990s, however, following both Pakistan and India's economic reforms and liberalization - albeit done very differently, no doubt - India's growth rates for the decade in all of these sectors (except agriculture) were not just higher, but significantly higher (often twice as high) in every single category. Perhaps the most extraordinary difference in comparative growth trends between India and Pakistan is in India's more than double export growth, and the four-times higher growth in new investment measured by Gross Capital Formation. Pakistan has had very little addition to capital in the 1990s, a trend, which sadly, has been made even worse in the last two years following 9/11 and Pakistan's role in the War Against Terror. Since 1993, India's growth rate has been higher than Pakistan's in every single year, and in four years in the last ten, India's growth rate has been double of Pakistan's. This is not all. If we look at all the seven Saarc countries, today even lowly Bangladesh and Nepal perform far better than Pakistan, and this is especially so if we compare the 1980s. In the decade of the eighties, Pakistan had the second highest GDP growth rate after the Maldives. In the 1990s, Pakistan's GDP growth rate was the lowest of the seven. It is not just these 'hard' economic statistics which show how Pakistan has been left behind by other Saarc countries and particularly by India, but numerous other softer indicators also re-emphasize this trend. The UN Human Development Index (HDI) is a good indicator of broad social development in a country and includes social indicators as well as economic ones. In the HDI ranking of 1991, Pakistan was placed higher than India and Bangladesh. In 2003, India is ranked far higher than Pakistan, as is Bangladesh. More importantly, Pakistan's rank fell from being at 138 to the 144th in just one year, 2002-03, and Nepal and Pakistan are the only two non-African countries to be classified in the low human development group. Clearly, a most ignoble achievement. There are numerous other social and economic indicators which re-emphasize the fact that Pakistan has been left far behind. Poverty in India, for example, has fallen from 45 per cent of the population in 1983 to 26 per cent today; in Pakistan it increased from 17 per cent in 1987 to 33 per cent today. Not only do the past trends show a worsening gap, but while we were just celebrating a mere five per cent growth in GDP for the first time since 1995, hoping to achieve the same rate this year, the Reserve Bank of India was increasing its earlier expectations to well above six per cent for the next three years for India. The difference is clear: India's economic growth has by far overtaken Pakistan's, a trend which is unlikely to be reversed for some time to come. The implications of this should be obvious to all. It is high time that Pakistan's leadership realizes this fact and starts putting its economic, social, political and foreign policy houses in order.
Posted by: rhytha Jan 12 2004, 06:38 PM
IntelCenter has released a new report entitled, "Osama bin Laden Audio Release Analysis v1.1". The 6-page report examines the correlation between the timing of the release of Osama bin Laden audio tapes and major attacks by al-Qaeda. It includes details on the Osama bin Laden audio tape released on 4 Jan. 2004 and its impact on the current threat environment. To download the public PDF version of the report, please click here
Posted by: SSridhar Jan 12 2004, 06:39 PM
“President Musharraf reassured Prime Minister Vajpayee that he will not permit any territory under Pakistan’s control to be used to support terrorism in any manner” The use of the words “territory” consolidated India’s position that Kashmir is its integral part and negated Pakistan’s stand that Kashmir is a disputed region and “not a territory under Pakistan’s control”. The use of the word “terrorism” validated India’s claims of cross-border terrorism and negated Pakistan’s claims that it is not “terrorism” but a “freedom struggle” that is occurring in Kashmir.
I do not understand the euphoria that this has generated. After the Dec 13 attack on the Indian Parliament and after the Kaluchak attack on families of armed forces on May 14, India came almost close to a war. On both these occassions, the Gola addressed his nation, the first on Jan 12, 2002 and then on May 27, 2002 and abjured Pakistan's support for jihad and terrorism. IMO, this was done just to assuage India's feelings and mislead the Western world 400 %. India backed out under US pressure and a smug feeling of a "reformed" or "reforming" TSP but the terrors continued unabated. By that time, a large number of terrorists had sneaked into J&K and when the Gola made a statement that "nothing was happening across the LoC", it was factually correct as the terrorists were actually inside. That's why when the Chief Terrorist says that his "terrority will not be used for terrorsim", he may again be factually correct.
Posted by: Ajgir Jan 12 2004, 07:16 PM At least nine more suspects have been arrested over last month's attempts to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, according to police. Police say several people were detained at the weekend after raids on two Islamic schools in Lahore. The latest detentions bring the total arrested to more than 30. President Musharraf was unhurt when two trucks loaded with explosives rammed his convoy on 25 December - the second attempt to kill him in 11 days. At least 15 people, including two suicide bombers, were killed. Those initially arrested held included employees at two petrol stations where the bombers had parked their vehicles. Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed has said foreigners were involved in the attacks. Peace
Posted by: Mudy Jan 13 2004, 12:25 AM,00050004.htm ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 13 2004, 01:07 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 13 2004, 12:25 AM),00050004.htm ROTFL.gif
Mudy, I would have labelled it :,00050004.htm pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 13 2004, 01:29 AM LAHORE, Jan 11: The Pakistan Railways will issue tickets for eight Indian cities when Samjhota Express resumes its operation after a break of two years on Jan 15. The renovated rake of 10 coaches will have first and economy classes. The train will leave the Lahore station for Atari (India) through Wagah at 8am (PST) on Mondays and Thursdays. It will depart Atari for Wagah at 2:30pm (IST) the same afternoon. The five-year agreement signed between Pakistan and Indian railway authorities in the third week of December 2003 says that frequency of the train operation could be enhanced according to the increase in the number of passengers. Authorities of both the countries may issue tickets for eight railway stations each. The fare rate will be what the railway authorities charge in their respective countries. Tickets may be purchased for Amritsar, Delhi, Kanpur, Lucknow, Aligarh, Ilahabad, Saharanpur and Muradabad from the Lahore station 48 hours before the departure of the train. Fare for these destinations is (first class): Rs725, Rs1,132, Rs1,093, Rs875, Rs1,264, Rs585, and Rs516, respectively. For the economy class the fare table is Rs74, Rs132, Rs229, Rs221, Rs180, Rs254, Rs185, and Rs169, respectively. This included Rs50 charged for Lahore-Atari travel and the reservation fee. A railway spokesman said that Samjhota passengers would not be provided return ticket facility because there was no provision for it in the agreement. He said the Indian authorities had rejected a proposal for enhancing the train route from Atari to Amritsar. AC Lower coaches could be introduced in the Samjhota Express if both the railways authorities decided that the required number of passengers were available for such a coach, the spokesman said. Both the countries will provide train rake for six months each. For the first six months, the Pakistan Railways will offer the rake as Indian authorities have refused to provide the coaches first though it was their turn as Pakistan had exhausted its turn when the rail link was severed two years ago. The Samjhota Express had stopped running on Dec 31, 2001, when New Delhi unilaterally severed its ties with Islamabad and cut off all air, road and rail links after an attack on its parliament, blaming 'Pakistan-based' militants. About opening of the Khokharapar-Munabao rail link, the spokesman said that the Pakistan Railways would have to replace its present metre-gauge rails with broad gauge track. The project costing a sum of Rs650 million could be completed in 14 months. "It is up to Islamabad to decide when to open this link. However, the railway authorities are preparing PC-I of the project which will be sent to the railway ministry for allocation of funds in case the government gives a green signal for executing the plan," he said. It is most disconcerting that India is opening herself to a huge spate of Terrorism from Lotastaan. In additions many Lotastaanis do not return to Lotastaan but become Illegal Immigrants in India. This is a known fact since about 90% of Lotastaanis whose Indian Relatives Addresses given, when applying for an Indian Visa, were found to be wrong. It would be better if every applicant’s Indian Relative’s details are checked and the Visa Applicant paying for the cost of such checks. In addition why should PR issue tickets to the destinantion. PR should issue a Return ticket to the Border and then IR should issue a return ticket from the border to the Indian City of visit and back. IR should open an office in the vicinity of the Indian Visa Issuing Office so that these Return Tickets are produced at the time of applying for a Visa. A similar course of action should be adopted for Indian visitors going to Lotastaan. With India opening Five to Ten entry modes / points India will run awash with Lotastaanis. Since 10% of Lotastaanis have been termed as Religious Terrorists by Riff Raff it stands to reason that India will get these Lotastaani Terrorists in the Hundreds of Thousands. furious.gif Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 13 2004, 03:36 AM
QUOTE (SSridhar @ Jan 12 2004, 06:21 PM)
Peregrine, here is an article from the Dawn which appeared a few months back comapring the Indian and TSP economy.
SSridhar : Thanks for the Article. However I was looking for Comparative Table form WB or similar body. Worst come to worst one can always have a “dekho” in the Library. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 13 2004, 11:48 PM,00050002.htm biggrin.gif Reuters Multan, January 13 Pakistan police have detained four people working for a cable company for airing an Indian film, which is prohibited under law, officials said on Tuesday. The move comes despite a thaw in relations between India and Pakistan in recent months. The four men are accused of violating the sovereignty of the country by the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (PEMRA), which barred Indian channels from being shown on Pakistani cable television in 2002. A judge in the central city of Multan handed the four men over to police after PEMRA accused the cable company of violating the ban on January 8 by showing an Indian movie, which they say had content against Pakistan and its army. Mughis Aslam Malik, lawyer for the accused, denied the cable company had shown the Indian channel and said they would contest the allegations when charged. Pakistan imposed the ban in March 2002 during a bitter military standoff with India following an attack on parliament in New Delhi in December 2001. Since then they came to the brink of their fourth war since 1947, but the countries have now agreed to start a peace process by holding talks from next month. Pakistan's entertainment industry is much smaller than that of its giant neighbour. Indian songs and movies are hugely popular with Pakistanis who mostly obtain them through audio and video cassettes and compact discs.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 14 2004, 05:09 AM
user posted image Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 14 2004, 05:36 AM
Peregrine - two weeks in a row you've ruined my appitite. Aare bhai, you could have used this pic from the Bhutto Sr's time: user posted image Note to self: tread carefully, very carefully at IF on Tue eveinings cool.gif
Posted by: Kaushal Jan 14 2004, 08:22 PM
Quote from Shireen Behen
The views expressed by the writer are her own
Really ?
Posted by: Viren Jan 14 2004, 08:33 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 13 2004, 08:28 PM)
Viren : Happy Now? Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 15 2004, 02:47 AM THE Government of Pakistan has made another U-turn, this time on the Stranded Pakistanis. In the course of an intra-court appeal against a petition’s dismissal, the Government has filed a statement that it does not consider Stranded Pakistanis citizens of Pakistan. The general impression was that the Government in principle had agreed to resettle the Stranded Pakistanis, but there were logistical and political obstacles which had led to footdragging. Now it appears the government intends to abandon them altogether, just because 10 of about 400,000 had obtained the right to vote in Bangladesh. Some of the second generation would certainly like to settle in Bangladesh, which is willing now to absorb them, but those who wish to come to Pakistan, after three decades as refugees, must be allowed to do so. These people had staked their safety, their livelihoods and even their lives while trying to help keep the East Wing part of Pakistan. They had migrated from India to Pakistan in 1947, and had no wish to become part of Bangladesh. Instead of being repatriated, as was done for West Pakistanis, they were stuck in camps. The Government’s court statement also claimed speciously that those born after 1971 had no right of citizenship: if their parents did, why not the children? The Government should revise its submissions and accept its responsibility for an unfortunate section of our citizenry whose loyalty to Pakistan has been rewarded with neglect and now outright rejection. The so called Biharis Muslims helped the West Pakistani Armed Forces, Paramilitary and Police by forming the dreaded Razakars and Slaughtered the Bengali speaking Population especially the Hindus. The Raped Hundreds of thousands of Women, Aashiana-ized young Men and carried out inhumane acts worst than Germany’s Nazis/SS Members. Lotastaan has now decided not to consider these Bihari Muslims / Razakars as Lotastaanis. At last these Bihari Muslims / Razakars are being served with Sweet Poetic Justice. Cheers
Posted by: prem Jan 15 2004, 06:23 AM
LET HE WHO HAS NOT SINNED CAST THE FIRST STONE Cheers +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Happy Haloween !!! This is one darn ugly being to scare the kids. Throwing up now ...
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 15 2004, 05:11 PM US troops 'kill Iraqi attackers' US forces say they killed eight suspected insurgents after a drive-by attack in central Iraq on Tuesday. Major Josslyn Aberle said US soldiers patrolling south-west of the city of Samarra were shot at by people in passing cars and returned fire. On Wednesday, at least two foreigners were killed and two wounded when gunmen fired on their vehicles near Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's home town. Reuters news agency said two of the victims were Pakistanis and one a Turk. Again in Samarra, US forces detained four relatives of the most wanted member of Saddam Hussein's regime still at large, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri. The former vice-president, one of Saddam Hussein's right-hand men, is believed by the Americans to be directing much of the resistance to US-led occupying forces in central Iraq. Meanwhile, at least two people were killed and more than 20 injured in a car bomb attack outside a police station in the central Iraqi town of Baquba. Samarra, Tikrit and Baquba are all in an area known as the Sunni triangle, where resistance to the American-led occupation is strong. ”Cars destroyed” Tuesday's attacks involved people firing from a convoy of eight vehicles, Major Aberle said. Two cars were destroyed while the six others were seized and their 26 occupants were arrested, she added. Major Aberle described the way the Iraqis had initially opened fire on the US troops as a "drive-by shooting". "The attackers fired on the soldiers with automatic weapons. They attempted to escape after the initial confrontation," she said. Major Aberle also said that a large weapons cache - including 170 mortar bombs - was discovered outside Samarra on Tuesday by US troops, who detained one person. Seven Iraqis believed to have been stealing fuel from a pipeline were killed by US forces near Samarra on Sunday. ”Safe houses” The four men held after a dawn raid in Samarra are all thought to be nephews of the former vice-president, Mr al-Douri, who has a $10m bounty on his head. American forces suspect they had been sheltering him in a series of safe houses. Lieutenant-Colonel David Poirier said the men arrested had been "enablers" for Mr al-Douri and they had good information on his whereabouts. "We think that [the raid] brought us one step closer to finding him," he told Reuters news agency. Wednesday also saw the coalition announce the capture of another of the 55 "most wanted" former regime officials. Khamis Sirhan al-Muhammad, a former regional Baath Party chairman and militia commander who was number 54 on the list, was arrested on Sunday in the Ramadi area, west of Baghdad. ”Suicide attack” The Baquba bomb is thought by coalition officials to have been a suicide attack. A police officer at the scene of the blast said a car sped towards the police station moments before the explosion. "I saw the remains of the car driver all over the place and the building was severely damaged," said Haidar Ismail. Witnesses said the force of the blast threw scores of people to the ground. The BBC's Alastair Leithead, in the Iraqi capital Baghdad, says the attack appears to be another attempt to destabilise the new police force being assembled by the coalition. At least five people died last week in a blast outside a mosque in Baquba. There has been a spate of attack on Iraqi police stations in recent months. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 15 2004, 09:58 PM A car bomb near a church in the Pakistani city of Karachi has injured at least 11 people, police say. The powerful blast happened shortly after police received an anonymous telephone warning that a bible society near the church would be targeted. The explosion is the first attack on Pakistan's small Christian community for more than a year. The BBC's Paul Anderson in Islamabad says it will re-awaken fears among them that they are once again targets. ”Warning” Television footage of Thursday's blast near the Trinity Church in Karachi showed extensive damage to cars in the area, with twisted metal and shattered glass scattered over the street. A local Christian leader said one of the church's walls was badly damaged. Police said they had received a warning that the Pakistan Bible Society would be attacked. When officers went to investigate, attackers drove by and threw a small explosive device, believed to be a firecracker, at them. Several minutes later a bomb in a nearby parked car exploded. At least two police officers were among the injured. No one has claimed responsibility for Thursday's blast and the assailants are believed to have escaped. “Execution” In mainly Muslim Pakistan there are about 3.8 million Christians, about 2.5% of the national population. They have been targets of violence before, although the last incident was more than a year ago. In 2002, six attacks on Christian targets left more than 40 people dead. The most vicious was at a Christian society in Karachi, when gunmen tied up seven people and shot them execution-style. The killings prompted calls for better security and protection at Christian buildings. Most of the attacks were blamed on Islamic militants angry at Pakistan's support for the United States-led war against international terrorism. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 16 2004, 05:54 AM
After talking to Indians from all walks of life I came away with three powerful impressions. The foremost is how little Pakistan really figures in their overall thinking, particularly in the south
Posted by: Mudy Jan 16 2004, 06:55 AM
Of course you knew you were on the ‘wrong’ side simply because of the turbaned Sikhs on view, and the visibly much larger number of women confidently participating in the public hurly-burly of life.
Advance soceity
Until the late eighties I used to chide my Indian friends on how comparatively far behind they were of Pakistan in the modernisation process: the roads were poor, the telephone service pathetic, cars antedeluvian, consumer goods shoddy, the airports and air services shabby, and even the thinking somewhat smug, insular and bureaucratic. A decade or more of sustained growth and liberalisation have produced unbelievable changes. And, given a domestic saving rate in excess of 20%, expanding exports and foreign investment, and a rapidly increasing middle-class hungry to further improve its living standards, the show appears well and truly on the road. Yes, one cannot escape from the demeaning and still visibly widespread poverty, but the economic ‘feel good’ factor is a palpable reality across the border, and let no one ever underestimate the many positive side effects on a nation’s psyche from the resultant fallout.
It is true, India is really changing fast, which is very much visible.
After talking to Indians from all walks of life I came away with three powerful impressions. The foremost is how little Pakistan really figures in their overall thinking, particularly in the south. The Test match against Australia, even in the serious English-language papers, was a far bigger story than the good news from Islamabad. Uppermost, by far, in every one’s mind were the prospects and opportunities for economic self-advancement. And the thaw in our relations is viewed primarily in terms of the likely economic benefits which will follow. But what I found really depressing was how very few Indians (including the educated and sophisticated lot) had any idea at all of what Pakistan and its people are really like
No one cares about Pakistan biggrin.gif
Posted by: O Vijay Jan 16 2004, 07:15 AM Jan. 13, 2004 Israeli suspected of sending nuclear parts to Pakistan By ASSOCIATED PRESS An Israeli citizen suspected of illegally shipping high-tech equipment to Pakistan that could detonate nuclear weapons can be released on $75,000 cash bond, a judge ruled. Despite US Magistrate Judge Michael Watanabe's order Monday, Asher Karni will remain in federal custody until at least Thursday while the government appeals the bond decision, said Jeff Dorschner, spokesman for the US Attorney's Office in Denver. Karni, 50, who lives in South Africa, was arrested at Denver International Airport on Jan. 2 and accused of sending to Pakistan hundreds of triggered spark gaps – high-speed electrical switches capable of sending synchronized electronic pulses. The spark gaps are so-called dual use technology. In the medical field, they are used to destroy kidney stones, and Karni said the parts were intended for a hospital in South Africa. But the government argues the equipment, ordered from a New Jersey export company, was shipped to South Africa and then sent on to Pakistan using falsified documents. Spark gaps are among a list of items that require a special export license if being shipped to certain countries, such as Pakistan, because they can be used to make nuclear weapons. Karni was arrested in Colorado after arriving for a ski vacation. For a background on Karni see:,1299,DRMN_15_2571771,00.html
Posted by: Mudy Jan 16 2004, 09:51 AM
Cooperation Between Pak-California Discussed Updated on 2004-01-15 16:44:24 WASHINGTON, USA: Jan 15 (PNS) - Ambassador Ashraf Jehangir Qazi Tuesday called on Governor Arnold Schwaznegger of California, during which state of Pak-U.S. relations, expansion of economic cooperation and welfare of Pakistani-Americans were discussed. They exchanged views on expanding economic cooperation Between Pakistan and California, which is the fifth largest economy of the world. Official sources later stated that there is enormous scope for expansion for exports of Pakistani textiles, as well as cooperation in Information Technology and Human Resource Development. Mr. Qazi invited Governor Schwaznegger to visit Pakistan-Which has a varied and captivating landscape for a tourist ranging from High altitude to snow-capped mountain landscape, gushing rivers, lush green areas, orchards, vast agricutural lands, sea, history, archaeology and craftsmanship. He accepted the offer and said he would undertake a visit of Pakistan at an appropriate time. The Austrian-born Californian Governor said he knows of Pakistan for its amazing and gorgeous mountaneous range and snow-ladden cliffs. On a lighter note, he said "whenever I think of high altitude mountains, Pakistan comes to my mind, instantly." Schwaznegger is known worldwide for his high class action films, such as Terminator, Predator, Eraser and Commando. He praised Pakistan's rich contribution "and continuous support" for the cause of war on terror, as a close ally of the United States. Later at a meeting with the editorial board of the leading daily 'Sacremanto Bee,' Ambassador Qazi briefed them about the growing Pak-U.S. ties, which were diversified, multi-year and mutually beneficial. Pakistan, he said enjoys a pivotal position in the region and was hub of activity for Central Asia, South Asia and Middle East, particularly the Muslim world. Flush.gif He said government of Pakistan was an elected parliamentary state where efforts were afoot to promote and strengthen enlightened moderation, as reiterated by President Pervez Musharraf. Ambassador Qazi referred to successful holding of SAARC summit in Islamabad last week, which laid firm foundations for start of peace process by agreeing to resumption of bilateral talks by Pakistan and India, and resolution of outstanding disputes, including Kashmir, by peaceful means. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif He elaborated policies being pursued by Pakistan in various fields. The editorial board putforth searching queries about Pakistani-American community in California and other states. The envoy elaborated the the active and constructive role being played by the law-abiding and capable community. The Ambassador was accompanied by Consul General Noor Muhammad Jadmani.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 16 2004, 12:35 PM
Back to square,001300270001.htm
Posted by: Gill Jan 16 2004, 02:34 PM
Ms. Mudy, Its time to play poker. As I stated earlier, its time India isolates Pakistan in South Asia as well. If they are not coming onboard, let them drown. Pakistan is testing the waters, and I think India is waiting for elections. wink.gif
Posted by: Ajgir Jan 16 2004, 08:37 PM ISLAMABAD – President General Pervez Musharraf Thursday said efforts to root out terrorism would continue and Pakistan would not allow its soil to be used for terrorist activities. The President said this while presiding over the 89th Corps Commanders Conference held at the General Headquarters. The conference was attended by all Corps Commanders and Principal Staff Officers of the General Headquarters. However, well placed sources confided to The Nation that some army officials other than Corps Commanders and Principal Staff Officers also attended the meeting and informed the participants about the domestic security review held in the aftermath of recently conducted terrorist attacks on President General Pervez Musharraf. They apprised the top army cadre that the country’s law enforcement agencies were fully alive to the security problems and well coordinated measures were being taken to improve the domestic security situation. The President while briefing the participants of the meeting about the prevailing international and regional environment, said, “ Our efforts to root out extremism and all kinds of terrorism from Pakistan’s soil will continue.” He said that Pakistan would not allow its soil to be used for any terrorist activity. During the meeting, matters pertaining to the operational and training preparations of Pakistan Army came under discussion. The participants also reviewed the post cease-fire situation along the Line of Control, said a press release issued after the meeting. Sources said that the top army brass was briefed in detail about the recent peace overtures on the part of Islamabad and New Delhi. The top officials of Pakistan Army expressed their satisfaction over the peace process and facilitated President Musharraf for successfully holding the SAARC Summit. The President said that Islamabad would continue to endeavor for lasting peace with India and all possible steps would be taken to resolve all issues with India through meaningful negotiations. He said that Pakistan was looking forward to composite dialogue with India and hoped that it would lead to durable solution of all Pak-India problems, sources said. The meeting also reviewed the latest situation on the country’s Western border. The top army brass vowed to continue with elaborate efforts to eradicate the scourge of terror. The meeting was apprised of the recent search operation in South Waziristan Agency against the suspected terrorists . The meeting was also briefed about the country’s political situation. According to sources the President said that resolution of crisis over LFO would lead to political stability and it will also strengthen democracy. Peace
Posted by: rhytha Jan 16 2004, 09:55 PM
Musharraf vows to root out terrorism yeah right dry.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 16 2004, 10:09 PM
Cross Posted on the Cricket Thread : A report in India Today magazine claims that India's players are seeking assurances from the Indian board (BCCI) about their personal safety before agreeing to travel to Pakistan for March's ground-breaking series. The article adds that several players believe that the BCCI has spent more time focusing on the financial windfall likely to accrue from the games than it has on the welfare of the team. "Is anyone in the BCCI going to do a recce before the tour and see what the arrangements are for the team?" the magazine quotes an unnamed player as saying. "We get a feeling they are happy to just have the tour and send us off. There seems to be more talk of television revenues rather than security which is disturbing." Recent reports have indicated that the tour could generate huge sums of money, with the cash-strapped Pakistan Cricket Board alone set to earn around $30 million in broadcast and sponsorship rights. Jagmohan Dalmiya, the BCCI president, dismissed the concerns, insisting that he had been in regular touch with the Pakistan board to discuss all aspects of the tour, including player security. Jagmohan Dalmiya isn’t worried about the players’ safety - all he is worried about is making Money. Wonder how much Dalmiya will make in “incentives” paid into his Swiss Bank Account by the Lotastaanis? After all the PCB will say that they will ensure the safety because to make the USD 30 Million the Lotastaanis will sell their mothers - what can one say about the Indian Players' Safety and Security. Bring back Capital Punishment – Hang Dalmiya Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 16 2004, 10:22 PM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Jan 16 2004, 12:25 PM)
Musharraf vows to root out terrorism yeah right dry.gif
MusRAT ucchava: When they shoot it you they are 'freedom fighters' - when they shoot at me they are terrorist pakee.gif
Posted by: rhytha Jan 16 2004, 10:44 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 16 2004, 10:09 PM)
Cross Posted on the Cricket Thread : Jagmohan Dalmiya isn’t worried about the players’ safety - all he is worried about is making Money. Wonder how much Dalmiya will make in “incentives” paid into his Swiss Bank Account by the Lotastaanis? After all the PCB will ensure the safety because to make the USD 30 Million the Lotastaanis will sell their mothers - what can one say about the Indian Players' Safety and Security. Bring back Capital Punishment – Hang Dalmiya
Dalmiya is number one corrupted guy, always eyes on revenues above all else, also he undid the reformation that was done in selecting players by the privious BCCI secretory mad.gif furious.gif . dry.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 16 2004, 10:54 PM NEW DELHI : Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani on Friday declared India will not lower its guard despite thaw in relations with Pakistan and hoped that Hurriyat Conference leaders would make "sincere" efforts to end the era of violence in Jammu and Kashmir . "While cross-border terrorism and infiltration of terrorists into India has continued over the years, the level of infiltration and the number of violent incidents in J and K have perceptibly come down in recent months," he said inaugurating a two-day meeting of Chief Secretaries and Directors General of Police on Internal Security here. Describing as a "historic" and a "major breakthrough" the India-Pakistan Joint Statement reached in Islamabad on January six, Advani, however, cautioned the country's top security brass against lowering its guard and said that "vigil must be continued". Contending that the Government has always been open to resolution of all conflicts through dialogue and peaceful mean, he said "it was in this spirit that the invitation for talks has been extended to the Hurriyat leaders, who, I am confident, would make serious efforts to end the era of violence in J and K". On the Centre-Hurriyat talks scheduled for January 22, the Deputy Prime Minister said he was confident that the "outcome will be good. I have no doubt about it". Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee would address the meeting tomorrow and interact with chiefs of various security agencies. Cheers
Posted by: Kaushal Jan 17 2004, 01:21 AM
Soft Borders with Pakistan: A Certain Suicide By: Moorthy Muthuswamy PhD Introduction There has been a recent and unrealistic euphoria over the possibility of a sudden dissolution of historical hatred in South Asia, with India possibly opening its arms and borders to embrace the failed state of Pakistan that has been trying its level best to destroy India. Until now there exist no serious analysis that discusses the potential outcome of this move – whether it would be a win-win situation for all countries or it would lead to Islamic extremism moving beyond Pakistan and further consolidate and destroy India through soft borders. My analysis outlined here indicates that soft borders with Pakistan would be suicidal for India and for the rest of South Asia. I discuss an alternate vision of achieving peace and prosperity in South Asia. The EU Model is Inappropriate Those who profess “statesmanship” or “vision” suggest a European Union (EU) type arrangement in South Asia. Few suggestions could be more inappropriate! Almost all countries in the EU have a Christian majority and they all strive toward progress, not jihad. Now, for over ten years, the EU has declined Turkey’s application for membership. Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim majority nation with a large and growing population. A letter of mine published in the Washington Times on Dec. 18, 2002 tells us the EU’s concerns: Why the EU does not want Turkey In their column "Road map to a Western Turkey" (Commentary, yesterday), John C. Hulsman and Brett D. Schaefer have glossed over an important concern many Europeans have about Turkey's inclusion in the European Union: namely, giving Turkey's Muslim population easier access to settling in Europe. European Muslims, including second-generation ones, have difficulty assimilating and are among the largest recipients of welfare. They also have high crime rates and poor education levels. While the native white population in the European Union is barely reproducing itself, European Muslims have among the highest birth rates. If Turkey were admitted to the union, Europe's Muslims could jump from about 4 percent to 20 percent of the population. Furthermore, there is the obvious issue of pan-Islamic extremism sweeping the world, including Europe, with the burgeoning of the immigrant Muslim population. It also must be acknowledged that, given its deep Islamic roots, Turkey is at best an experiment in democracy and modern development. Its admission into the European Union could portend the devastation of Western Europe through a massive influx of Muslims who have little in common with Europeans. To this day Pakistan continues to be the primary incubator of worldwide terrorism, with many generations of its people passionate about waging jihad. It is a far more Muslim extremist nation than Turkey. Even if the military establishment in Pakistan is willing to embrace India, the Islamic religious power structure in Pakistan is committed to Islamizing South Asia by nook or crook. The Muslim clerics wield enormous influence across the spectrum of the Pakistani society. The clerical outlook towards India continues to be hostile and belligerent. These beliefs are rooted in ancient religious teachings, -- not subject to negotiation or rational discussion. If some people think that soft borders and closer, people-to-people interaction with India will lead to a reformed Pakistan, how come India’ own Muslim population, living day in and day out in a secular and democratic nation has not merged into the mainstream but is also increasingly getting jihadized ( Conclusion: Already reeling under an escalating Islamic fundamentalism, soft borders with Pakistan will speedup the irreversible destruction of India. Reforming Pakistan If India and other nations want to see a moderate and reformed Pakistan that focuses on nation-building rather than jihad, they must first identify why Pakistan got itself into this mess in the first place. A letter of mine published in the Washington Times on Nov. 22, 2002 explains why: Pakistan's undemocratic underpinnings The conclusions found in "Studies say elites spurred to terror" (Business, Wednesday) are incomplete. The question should be, what causes political repression? Pakistan and India were created from 1947 British-ruled India. When the British left, both of these nations inherited democracy. Hindu-majority India has remained secular and democratic, but Muslim-majority Pakistan couldn't sustain democracy and is now a dictatorship. Pakistan also has become a dominant source and sponsor of Islamic terrorism. Pakistan couldn't sustain democracy because the retrogressive political indoctrination taught in its mosques does not allow the separation of church and state. This has led to political repression amid a flowering of Islamic fundamentalism. This conclusion tells us that if the United States wants to make any Islamic state a model nation for democracy, it must first address the issue of the hateful and retrogressive preaching in its mosques. This observation, in combination with the plight of Muslims in India and even in developed European countries, and extremism among wealthy, educated Muslim Arabs make us come to the following inevitable conclusion: Islamic ideology is solely responsible for the plight of Muslims and Muslim majority nations. Islam’s shortcomings must be addressed first before Muslims are given free reign to move about. Otherwise, freedom to travel will be exploited by Pakistani extremists who dominate Islam in Pakistan to wage jihad on infidels such as Hindus. With regard to reforming Islam, it is notable, even within secular, multiethnic and democratic India there exist no reformed version of Islam ( We now reach an even more significant conclusion: To expect reformed Pakistan or even expect Indian Muslims to move away from extremism on their own is unrealistic for a foreseeable future. An Alternate Vision One should view Pakistan and even sections of Indian population as being inflicted with a social disease called Islamic extremism. The right approach here is to quarantine India with respect to Pakistan - the worldwide sponsor of this infection, and eradicate the disease within India and then work to eradicate it in Pakistan and Bangladesh. This should be a win-win situation. However, the act of opening India to Pakistan will lead to this disease further consolidating and expanding into India and eventually destroy it, -- just like the way it is destroying Pakistan and Bangladesh. In the mean time India should focus on wealth creation through continued economic reforms, improved stability, and investment ( Decisions can Wait Many well-educated and capable visionaries leading Indian corporations in the areas such as software and pharmaceutical industries have enabled their companies to compete successfully with companies based in developed nations. However, this level of competence is yet to permeate the ruling class and the media, which appear to be still rooted in the “developing” world category. India will get a leader at some point in near future that reflects this new emerging nation. Such a person should be capable of making world-class decisions. A reminder: China saw a phenomenal growth under President Jiang Zamin -- trained as an engineer. While not discounting the current leadership, which has performed admirably in many ways, I think among the best decisions it can make is to groom the next generation leaders of India and not rush into any major decision vis-à-vis Pakistan at this point. With India finally taking off, risky decisions that could undermine its future must be avoided. It is high time the industry leaders of the emerging India also realize and work toward electing the future generation leaders who can aid wealth creation, promote India’s interests confidently, and make it secure. (The views expressed here are author’s own. The writer is a nuclear physicist based in America. He is also a director of Indian American Intellectuals Forum, a New York-based non-profit organization. His contact address:
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 17 2004, 02:19 AM Pakistan and specifically the Kashmir issue has stood in the way of the US strategic vision of building India as a regional power to contain China. President Parvez Musharraf’s written assurance to India, of accepting Kashmir as an integral part of India and co-operating with it to eliminate the jihadists from Kashmir, has removed this major obstacle. Musharraf and his inner circle are now involved in the dangerous move of using Pakistan to aid the US plan for Asia. On the 13th of January 2004, fresh from the Kashmir assurance, both Bush and Vajpayee announced the steps to be taken in developing India as the regional power. The address entitled the US-India Strategic Partnership states: “In November 2001, President Bush and I committed ourselves to a strategic partnership. Since then, our two countries have strengthened bi-lateral co-operation significantly in several areas. Today we announce the next step in implementing our shared vision.” The steps announced are a continuum of measures initiated by the Clinton administration in building India to a par with China, technologically, militarily and economically. According to the statement: “India and the United States of America agree to expand cooperation in three specific areas: civilian nuclear activities, civilian space programmes, and high technology trade. In addition, we agree to expand our dialogue on missile defence. Cooperation in these areas will deepen the ties of commerce and friendship between our two nations, and will increase stability in Asia and beyond.” The US and India have been very cautious not to antagonise China at this point and alert it to any hostile intention. For this reason the US-India policy has been to relax China and to detract it from the US plan towards it. Hence, India has engaged China in talks on settling the border issues related to Tibet and the US has downplayed the issue of Taiwan, even promoting it as an integral part of China. It is also the reason why the statement focuses on co-operation in the nuclear and space programmes as constituting that of a civilian nature and consistent with international norms and regulations. “The proposed cooperation will progress through a series of reciprocal steps that will build on each other. It will include expanded engagement on nuclear regulatory and safety issues and missile defence, ways to enhance cooperation in peaceful uses of space technology, and steps to create the appropriate environment for successful high technology commerce. In order to combat the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, relevant laws, regulations and procedures will be strengthened, and measures to increase bilateral and international cooperation in this area will be employed. These cooperative efforts will be undertaken in accordance with our respective national laws and international obligations.” The declaration reflects a major turning point for the US in terms of its influence in India and Vajpayee’s ability to commandeer the BJP and India towards its plan. The statement adds: “The expanded cooperation launched today is an important milestone in transforming the relationship between India and the United States of America. That relationship is based increasingly on common values and common interests. We are working together to promote global peace and prosperity. We are partners in the war of terrorism and we are partners in controlling the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. The vision of the India-US strategic partnership that President Bush and I share is now becoming a reality".. The statement on the strategic alliance was released at a time of rapid activity in the region after the secret understanding between Musharraf and India over Kashmir at the SAARC summit. The activities relate to smoothing the path for the US plan. The following are the main activities. 1. In line with the understanding with Brajesh Mishra, India received lists and intelligence co-operation from Pakistan as regards Kashmiri separatists and their bases. For this reason there has been a marked increase in the violence and success of the Indian forces in tracking down and killing Kashmiri fighters in Jammu and Kashmir. 2. Musharraf invoked the protocol on terrorism adopted at the SAARC summit in order to neutralise and remove internal radical Islamist dissent. The protocol mandates a 10year sentence for financing of terrorism or in this case any radical Islamist individual group or party opposed to the US plan. 3. Having freed up the military resources on the eastern border with India, on the 8th of January, 2004, Musharraf ordered an army operation against resistance in the tribal belt of the South Waziristan Agency on the border with Afghanistan, under the pretext of rooting out “ foreign rogue” elements, a reference to Al-Qaeeda. The aim of the operation is to bring the rugged tribal areas under the firm control of the Pakistani authorities through a mixture of development incentives and threats of military force. This in order to guarantee trade access and the safety of the energy pipeline projects from Central Asia, which are essential to India’s growing energy needs and require passage through Afghanistan and Pakistan. The fact that the operation is under US instruction is clear from US Secretary of State Colin Powell’s remarks: “So what we are doing is co-operating with the Pakistanis, making it clear to the Pakistanis that we want them to do everything they can to bring that area under control.” 4. Protection of the pipelines to India is also the reason why the inner troika of Musharraf, that of Shaukat Aziz, Riaz Khokar and Jamali took an urgent trip to Afghanistan on the 12th January, 2004, in order to co-ordinate intelligence co-operation and assistance to Karzai in helping to eliminate resistance to US control and Indian ambitions under the guise of fighting Al-Qaeeda and terrorism. According to Jamali: “We want to ensure that there is no criss-cross from Afghanistan into Pakistan, or from Pakistan into Afghanistan…we have agreed to fight terrorism hand in hand. We have to try to eradicate it so there is no let off. There is no turning back…We are doing a lot and we will do more.” Karzai said : Its recognised in Pakistan and Afghanistan, that the fight against terrorism is a joint fight. It is for the future of both countries, and for the future of this region.” According to reports in the Pakistani press, Jamali briefed Hamid Karzai about his talks with Vajpayee on the gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to India through Afghanistan and Pakistan. According to reports, “President Karzai was supportive of the important project.” A delegation from Pakistan was also sent to Iran in order to proceed with the stalled gas pipeline project from Iran to India via Pakistan. 5. In order to firmly consolidate the US position in India, Vajpayee hinted at early elections. The success of the BJP is likely to be guaranteed through the revelation by the BJP of Musharraf’s assurance of Kashmir as India’s integral part and the success over Congress in the recent local elections. Ironically it was also Musharraf through the US inspired Kargil operation which guaranteed Vajpayee’s previous election victory. The BJP leadership has gone for a two pronged approach. One for the general masses and one for the anti-US Hindu Nationalist parties which form the power nucleus of the BJP. As regards the Hindu Nationalists the BJP leadership has affirmed its Hindu nationalist credentials by giving assurances as regards the building of a Hindu temple on the site of the Ayodhya mosque. Home Minister, Lal Krishan Advani addressing a meeting of top BJP leaders and state party leaders said; “If not today, at least in the near future, a Ram temple at Ayodhya is possible.” As opposed to the Hindu nationalist slogans which brought it to power in 1991, in order to maintain stability the BJP has gone for a centrist approach with the masses. Vajpayee addressing a crowd in muslim populated Ahmedabad, Gujarat said; “I’m appealing to all of you that we should decide to forget what happened.” 6. It was also announced that Lal Krishan Advani would be meeting the moderate members of the All Parties Hurriyet Conference later in January, 2004. According to FP intelligence, this is in order to bring them on board as the official Kashmiri delegation in the final solution with Pakistan, especially as the moderate leadership of the APHC has already accommodated the idea of accepting Indian sovereignty in return for autonomy. The rapid-ness of the US initiated actions are primarily in response to the stability, security and survival of its key loyalists and game-players, Musharraf, Karzai and Vajpayee. The US depends on the fruition of its plan for South Asia on them. Despite the formation of the constitutional loya jirga, Karzai faces internal threats from warlords and a resurgence from the South of Afghanistan. The level of insecurity Karzai has forced the US into taking the unprecedented step of supplying him with bodyguards for his preservation and protection. Vajpayee’s health is deteriorating and other candidates albeit pro-US may not be as strong as Vajpayee in handling the anti-US Hindu nationalist parties, which form the power base and nucleus of the BJP. For this reason the US has put the US-India strategic relationship on a fast track. As for Musharraf, he has survived a real assassination attempt carried out by nationalist/Islamic hardliners within the army. He has become the target of jihadist and military hardliners who perceive Musharraf as having compromised Pakistan’s security, strategic influence and sovereignty to the US and Indian regional ambitions. Despite this, the US has been relentless in its pressure on Musharraf to crackdown on the jihadists, radical Islamists and anyone else who poses a threat to the US policy and plans in the region. In order to protect Musharraf, the US staged the first assassination attempt in order to take charge of his internal security. The increase in US security for Musharraf also coincides with the pressure on Musharraf to implement a major purge, crackdown and reshuffle against anti-US elements in the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies. This was the reason for the leak of a declassified intelligence report to the Boston Globe newspaper by the US government and published on the 11th of January, 2004, claiming that Islamic radicals had infiltrated the ranks of the Pakistani army and Musharraf faced a possible coup from amongst his closest generals. The build up of India as a regional power goes counter to the policy towards Pakistan which the US has continuously weakened, militarily, economically and strategically. Upon assuming power in 1999, Musharraf declared, “Pakistan has no interests beyond its borders”. This statement fundamentally laid the basis for dismantling of Pakistan’s strategic prowess in the region, which allowed it to influence China, Russia and India. In this regard Musharraf closed the ISI desks in Afghanistan and Kashmir key to Pakistan’s regional influence. In comparison India strengthened itself strategically around Pakistan through military agreements with Iran, the Central Asian States and the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. Militarily, India has a vastly larger army and conventional weapons capability as compared to Pakistan. This gap has been widening not only quantitatively but qualitatively, as the US, apart from itself, has allowed Britain, Russia and Israel to increase the Military, Naval and Air Force capability of India in order to bridge the gap between India and China. From the statement on the US-India Strategic alliance, the confidence expressed by the US in India’s nuclear programme is observable. In order to expand India’s nuclear deterrent, the US tried to mask it under the concept of a civilian programme. According to the statement : “India and the United States of America agree to expand cooperation in three specific areas: civilian nuclear activities, civilian space programmes, and high technology trade.” This is in stark contrast to the question mark being put on Pakistan’s nuclear programme by the US as regards it command, control and proliferation of nuclear secrets. Whereas the US expressed the complete confidence in the Indian nuclear programme. According to the statement : “The proposed cooperation will progress through a series of reciprocal steps that will build on each other…. In order to combat the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, relevant laws, regulations and procedures will be strengthened, and measures to increase bilateral and international cooperation in this area will be employed”. In terms of Pakistan’s economy, Musharraf and his Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz, under the supervision of the twin US economic tools, the IMF and the World bank, have under the pretext of fiscal management and economic regeneration, opened up the control of Pakistan’s state resources and industries to foreign exploitation and weakened the local industries including the vital agricultural sector through the application of crippling taxation. The weakening of Pakistan’s economic position has been part of the plan by Musharraf to aid India and the US in strengthening their economic position over Pakistan. For this reason Vajpayee has been consistent in his call for a common currency in South Asia as India would dominate such a set up. The South Asia Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA), which was signed at the recent SAARC summit in Islamabad and is scheduled to operate from 2005, will also provide an avenue for the largely subsidised economy of India to compete with and dominate the South Asian economies. More importantly for the US, Musharraf has worked hard over the last few years to put into place trade and energy agreements with the Central Asian and Middle Eastern states. This has been in order to lay the base for the US companies who have invested a considerable amount in the proposed pipeline structures from the Middle East and Central Asia. The US-India Strategic Alliance envisions Pakistan assuming a nominal role, dominated strategically, politically and economically by India through its regional build up. Being part of the US containment policy towards China, Pakistan will slowly find itself at odds with its non-belligerent neighbour and forced to use its manpower against it in the event of a future conflict. Another reason for the policy to weaken Pakistan is that the severest potential threat to the US-India Strategic alliance also emanates from it. The possibility of an Islamist/nationalist inspired coup in the Pakistan military has the potential to re-establish Pakistan’s strategic position. With regimes from Central Asia to Kashmir finding it difficult to cope with Islamic radicalism and anti-US sentiment, Pakistan will not find it difficult to connect with Islamists in Afghanistan, Central Asia and Kashmir. Having nuclear capability and a potential alliance with China, it will have little difficulty in eliminating the US plan for Asia. The next few months will be critical in defining which course Pakistan is steered towards. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 17 2004, 04:04 AM Friday January 16, 2004 (0241 PST) ISLAMABAD, January 17 (Online): President General Pervez Musharraf has summoned the joint session of parliament in the Parliament House at 11:00 am on Saturday. The president is scheduled to address the sitting of Senate and National Assembly. Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali has also convened the joint meeting of Pakistan Muslim League (Quaid) and its allied parties in the Parliament House today (Saturday) at 09:00 am to finalise the treasury’s strategy for the session . It merits mentioning that since October 2002 elections, the maiden address of President General Pervez Musharraf to joint session of parliament hit snags. However, the recent accord government reached with MMA on Legal Framework Order (LFO) and resolution of other intriguing political issues, led to General Musharraf much-awaited address to joint sitting of the Parliament, a constitutional binding for him after his elevation to the office of President . Agenda, schedule of joint sitting finalised Agenda and schedule of today’s joint session of the Parliament with reference to President’s address has been worked out. The session to be presided over by speaker national assembly Chaudhry Amir Hussain will start from 11 a.m. There will be no other business except the address by General Pervez Musharraf. The president will enter the House in the company of NA speaker, Chaudhry Amir Hussain and Senate Chairman, Muhammadmian Soomro through Speaker Chamber. He will be seated on the chair in between the NA speaker and chairman senate. Speaker NA will sit on his right side and the Chairman Senate to his left side. President will address joint session of the parliament comprising 441 parliamentarians. The members will be seated in alphabetic order. Opposition and ruling party members will sit together and there will be separate seats will not be allocated to them . NA speaker, Chaudhry Amir Hussain told the journalists with reference to the joint sitting that this will be special session adding that no other business except the address by the president will be conducted. No one will be allowed to raise point of order. Giving details of today’s session, he said that he would invite the president to address the joint session soon after recitation from the Holy Quran. The president will express his views on one year performance of the government and its future plans. However he can touch any topic while delivering speech, speaker told . He informed that the session will be prorogued after presidential address. Prime Minister, Mir Zafarullah Jamali will remain present during address. Governors of all the provinces, chief ministers, services chiefs, AJK president and prime minister, diplomats, chief justice of Pakistan, chief election commissioner and senior bureaucrats will also be present in the galleries of the House. President has prepared his speech he is to deliver in the joint session. Sources informed that the speech will spread for approximately one hour. The president during his address will not only present the review of one year performance of the government but will also give proposals for the improvement in efficiency. The president consulted his close allies on Friday with reference to his speech. President is likely to address the session in civil dress. The president has been proposed by the government to address the joint sitting in national dress convincing him that it will build better impression about him . biggrin.gif The conventional reception which is hosted by the speaker will not be given due to security reasons. The address will be simulcasted on TV and radio . PML-N urges lawmakers to give tough time to Musharraf Terming Musharraf as a stranger Vice President of Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz) Mashidullah Khan urged the Parliamentarians to give him tough time during his address to the Parliament today (Saturday) . Talking to Online on Friday he said that the Lawmakers had been He expresses these views to Online. Mushahidullah Khan said that in past offering stiff resistance to dictators and the same treatment should be meted to President General Pervez Musharraf . Musharraf is an unconstitutional president who has subverted the constitution therefore PML-N and has held Parliament to hostage . He said that Musharraf had no right to address the joint sitting of Parliament. Flaying imposition of curfew on Parliament house he said that imposition of curfew on Parliament had undermined the sanctity of the House. PML Vice President said that today (Saturday’s) session would be a battle between democracy and dictatorship in parliament . ARD to voice strong protest against president’s address: Saad PML-N central leader, Khawaja Saad Rafiq has said that ARD will voice strong protest on the occasion of General Musharraf address as he has no right to address the parliament being unconstitutional president. “ARD will protest strongly against general Musharraf address to joint sitting of the parliament. He has no right to address as a stranger can not address the session”, he said this in an exclusive talk with Online Friday after his arrival here from Lahore . He held that parliamentarians from component parties of ARD will raise strong protest against Musharraf address. The mode of protest will be evolved in the ARD parliamentary party meeting taking place today in the parliament house, he stated. He was of the view that the way General Musharraf has got himself elected as president through sham referendum has no room in the constitution, nor the taking of vote of confidence from the parliament and provincial assemblies provide a substitute for the presidential election. He is still unconstitutional president despite getting a vote of confidence, Rafiq added. He maintained that the ARD can not keep mum over the unconstitutional address of a usurper who has compromised over the national interest with the blessing of the foreign powers and taken U-turn over Kashmir policy. “ We will voice protest”, he added. laugh.gif Stern security measures for Musharraf address to Parliament Stringent security measures have been employed for President General Pervez Musharraf’s address to Parliament on Saturday in a bid to ward off any possible security hazard. All employees of Senate Secretariat were given leave on Friday including Media Wing Administration, Speaker and Secretary Offices, Legislation and Translation branch officials. The staffers on duty on Friday have been issued special security passes while anti-air craft guns have been installed on the President House and Radio Pakistan. No visitors’ passes would be issued to the Parliamentarians besides they have been asked not to bring any of staff members with them. Security personnel of Parliament House and FC would be responsible for maintaining security while the personnel of four intelligence agencies would man the House. As part of the security measures no entrant would be allowed to bring his/her mobile inside the house. The intelligence agencies personnel thoroughly checked the Parliament with the aid of modern equipment and sniffer dogs.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 17 2004, 04:27 AM
From : The Financial Times – A Subscription Site In six months, we will know whether the forces in both India and Pakistan opposed to a South Asian peace initiative are able to sabotage the process launched this month by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan and Atal Behari Vajpayee, India's prime minister. This week's revival of direct rail links between the countries after a two-year hiatus is the latest sign of easing tensions. But by mid-year, weather conditions will permit Pakistani-based militants to infiltrate Indian-administered Kashmir. Then, we shall see how strong are their respective hawks and nay-sayers. On past evidence, the thaw will not last. Since India's provocative military exercises in 1987, there have been three regional crises - the last, two years ago, barely defused by US diplomacy. Mr Vajpayee, who takes the long term view, is working for the eventual transformation of Pakistan, but he cannot do it alone. If his initiative fails, it is hard to see how the next crisis could avoid nuclear overtones. Why, though, should what Mr Vajpayee calls this "third and last chance" for peace not simply lead to more crises? This time, concessions by both sides (as much in language as in deed) could conceivably bring the peace process to the point of no return. We have not reached that stage yet. The nay-sayers fall into two camps. In India, some believe Pakistan will eventually collapse and that there is no need to rescue it from this fate. Paradoxically, this approach has the same practical result as that of the Pakistani camp, which fears negotiating from a position of weakness and cites timing as the obstacle to negotiation. Gen Musharraf and Mr Vajpayee clearly see this as the moment for a new approach, Mr Vajpayee because he believes he can bring a semblance of normality to South Asia. He knows India will never be counted among Asia's great states until it settles its affairs with the weaker Pakistan, and is aware that hardliners in his own party regard talk of peace as just short of treason. His improbable dialogue partner, Gen Musharraf, is harder to figure out. He lacks strategic vision, is a bad listener and believes that ruling Pakistan is like running an army division: give the orders and they will be obeyed. He may have learnt, after four years, that this approach does not work. One suspects he is tired of water issues, sectarian rivalries and diplomatic double-talk. Even his strategy of using militants to force the Indians to the negotiating table has failed. Now that the militants are more interested in his death than victory in Kashmir, he is having second thoughts. Such doubts are not peculiar to Gen Musharraf. He represents a large civil-military oligarchy, dubbed the "Establishment" in local circles. This 800-1,000 strong group includes senior army commanders, bureaucrats, media leaders, politicians and even some Islamists. They know Pakistan is failing, that an economic and military race with an expanding India is a losing proposition and that Pakistan's friends are fair-weather. Once Afghanistan is stabilised and al-Qaeda mopped up, the Americans will disappear, leaving Pakistan without a major ally. The once-reliable China, alarmed at Pakistan's support for Islamic radicals, is moving towards an understanding with India over their border dispute even as India-China trade soars. The next six months are critical. Will India be able to provide Pakistan with the one thing its army desperately needs, a reason to accept a border drawn through Kashmir? In the words of one Pakistani officer, the army understands it cannot wrest Kashmir from India, but it cannot turn its back on a 55-year struggle. At stake is its pride, and it literally calls the shots. Indians understand this, but many still observe "Chicago rules": the best time to kick a man is when he is down. But that only postpones the problem. India cannot afford a radical Pakistan as a neighbour and Gen Musharraf, for all his shortcomings and bravado, represents the Pakistani establishment. Treating Kashmir as a human rights issue rather than one of territory and law would maximise the interests of all parties. The Pakistanis can claim their struggle resulted in more humane treatment of the Kashmiri people, even if they do not join Pakistan or become independent. The Indians, meanwhile, will remove a blot on their own democracy and the Kashmiris, of course, will recover a semblance of normal life. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 17 2004, 04:47 PM Pakistan's President Musharraf has been continuously heckled by opposition MPs during his first speech to parliament since taking power in a coup in 1999. "Go Musharraf, go!", they shouted during his 45-minute address and a small group of MPs walked out. The president called on Pakistan to wage war on extremists and spoke of the need to resolve the Kashmir dispute. A recent deal with hardline Islamic parties enabled a vote of confidence allowing him to stay in power to 2007. The Pakistani leader's message went largely unheard on the floor of the house because of the noisy protest, says the BBC's Paul Anderson in Islamabad. General Pervez Musharraf's supporters - who are much more numerous - countered the cries from opposition by thumping their table tops every time he said something they approved of. Call to 'jihad' : He spelled out his determination to tackle extremists and terrorists damaging efforts to build the country, as well other problems. "I appeal to you and Pakistan nation to wage jihad (holy war) against extremism," Mr Musharraf said. He acknowledged the country had to take far-reaching decisions to counter allegations that it is supporting militants in Kashmir and Afghanistan. He also stressed the need to reduce poverty, maintain and strengthen the country's nuclear weapons and root out sectarianism and bigotry. The annual speech to a joint session of parliament is a constitutional requirement, but the Pakistani leader had avoided the address until arguments over his mandate to rule were solved. The stalemate ended last month when the president agreed to step down as army chief by the end of 2004, securing the hardliners' support. However, other parliamentary parties rejected the compromise, saying it was an attempt to cloak his rule in legitimacy. President Musharraf came to his speech buoyed by a landmark meeting with Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee in Islamabad later this month where all issues including Kashmir would be discussed. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 17 2004, 06:02 PM
In addition to India’s Terrorists / Underworld Dons wanted list Riff-Raff is now getting lists from Underwear friend : ISLAMABAD: The Chinese government has sent Islamabad a list and profile of terrorists and terrorist organisations of concern to the Government of China and wants them investigated by Pakistan. Highly-placed sources told Daily Times that “the list of the first batch of identified Eastern Turkistan” terrorist organisations and terrorists compiled by the Ministry of Public Security, China, on December 15, 2003, has been sent through diplomatic channels to Pakistan, with a request to forward the list to the departments concerned for investigation. Diplomatic sources say that Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a long time in the field of counter-terrorism. But they have intensified their efforts after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States. “To give concrete shape to this cooperation, the Foreign as well as Interior Ministers of the two countries met in 2002 and discussed counter-terrorism issues. Recently when President General Musharraf visited China, an extradition treaty was signed between the two countries,” sources explained. “Pakistan has declared on many occasions that it will not allow its soil to be used to destabilise Xinjiang, the Chinese province that neighbours Pakistan’s Northern Areas”, sources said. They said that counter-terrorism operations have been taking place against the East Turkistan Islamic Movement for some time. The recent list sent to Pakistan noted various aspects of at least two terrorist organisations, Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM) and Eastern Turkistan Liberation Organization (ETLO) as well as terrorists attached to these organisations. It also claims that these organisations and terrorists are well connected to Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda outfits and receive training as well as funding etc. Sources said the Chinese have provided details of the origin of these organisations, a brief description of the major acts of terrorism committed by them, their chief leaders, major sources of funds and personnel, as well as an outline of relations between them and other global terrorist organisations. The Eastern Turkistan Liberation Organization (ETLO) is also known as the Eastern Turkistan National Party. It is said to be working for the founding of an Eastern Turkistan State in Xinjiang, China, by means of violence and terror. “The ELTO was founded in Turkey with its headquarters in Istanbul. The founder of the organization is Muhametemin Hazret and its main leaders include Kanat, Dolqun Isa and Ubul Kasimu”, says the Chinese document. Among the major acts of terrorism committed by the ETLO are a series of violent terrorist crimes in China and across Central Asia, with some South and West Asian countries as the base camp for terrorist training and Central Asia as the forward position and bridgehead for terrorist operations. In May 1998, ETLO agents committed arson in a series of cases in Urumqi, capital city of Xinjiang. Between May and June 1998, Askar Tuhti, Ahmet, Balamjan Ahmet and some other ETLO members launched bomb attacks in the state of Oshskaya, Kyrgyzstan. In 1999, the Kazakhstan government cracked a major criminal case in which four Uygurs were murdered with their bodies cut into pieces. Investigations showed that it was Abulimit Turxun, a chieftain of ETLO, who had committed the murder. In May 2000, ETLO terrorists killed officers, including the Foreign Office director, of the Kirgiz Autonomous Prefecture of Kizilsu and injured a Deputy Chief of public security, after which they escaped to Kazakhstan and murdered several policemen. In September 2001, Abulat Tursun and Ahmet collected a large quantity of arms and weapons including 7 India-made handguns. The two later entered China from the Zham Port in Tibet but in February, 2003, the Chinese police uncovered the terrorist group they had developed. On June 29, 2002, Arken Yakuf and Rahmutulla Islayil, both ETLO members, murdered Chinese diplomat Wang Jianping in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan. The funding of the ETLO mainly comes from gift money from Al Qaeda outfits. They also make money through drug trafficking, arms smuggling, kidnapping and armed robbery. It mainly recruits young Xinjiang Uygurs under the age of 30 in Central Asia and convicted criminals and violent terrorists who have escaped from Xinjiang. Relations with global terror networks are also mentioned in the Chinese document. Under the Taliban, the ETLO was allowed to run special military training camps at Mazar-i-Sharif and Khost. In 1999, when the armed forces of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan invaded the southern part of Kyrgyzstan, Muhametemin Hazret provided financial assistance of $600,000, one third of which was for the training of Eastern Turkistan terrorists, says the Chinese report. The ETIM, also called as the East Turkistan Islamic Party or the Eastern Turkistan National Revolution Association, has been described as one of the most dangerous terrorist organisations among the Eastern Turkistan terrorist forces. “In 1993, Muhammad Tuhit and Abudu Rehman, both natives of Hotan, Xinjiang, founded the ETIM but it disintegrated later the same year. However, in 1997, Hasan Mahsum and Abudukadir Yapuquan ganged up with other East Turkistan activities to restore this organization. On September 11, 2002, the ETIM was put on the list of global terrorist organisations by the United Nations”. As far as major acts of terrorism performed by the ETIM are concerned, the Chinese communication says that this organization has set up bases outside China to train terrorists and has been constantly sending agents to sneak into Chinese territory to mastermind terrorist and sabotage activities. Between early 1998 and the end of 1999, the ETIM ordered the Hotan Kulex terror gang to set up several secret lairs in Hotan Prefecture. It was responsible for the December 14 terrorist killings in Moyu County of Hotan in 1999, the February 4 robbery and murder case in Urumqi the same year and other acts of terror. The chief leaders from the Uygur ethnic group are Hasan Mahsum, also known as Ashan Sumut, and Abdu Muhammad or Hasang Zunduliohe. Mr Mahsum was arrested in October 1993 by the Chinese police on the charge of performing acts of terror but he fled in 1997 and has since stayed in terrorist camps in Afghanistan to coach terrorists and plot deadly terrorist attacks in China, says the Chinese document. The funding of the ETIM mainly comes from Al Qaeda outfits. The group also makes money through drug trafficking, arms smuggling, kidnapping, robbery and other organized crimes. Relations between ETIM and other global terror organisations are noted. The Chinese government communication claims that the ETIM is closely linked to Mr Bin Laden’s Al Qaeda outfit and had got all-out support from the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Cheers
Posted by: Kaushal Jan 17 2004, 08:31 PM
Published in the regional US media. Pl. contribute to your local paper because that is where the locals get their news from - all politics is local. Sharad Bhatia: Pakistan is the most dangerous nation 01:00 AM EST on Friday, January 16, 2004 AT THE RECENTLY concluded regional conference in Islamabad, Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf vowed to commence a peace dialogue starting next month to resolve their long-standing bilateral problems, including the vexatious territorial dispute over Kashmir. General Musharraf has, in turn, once again, pledged to stamp out terrorism in Pakistan. While the news about a possible break-through between these two nuclear-armed antagonists is encouraging, it is dangerous to underestimate the dynamics of the conflict and way too premature to celebrate. After Sept. 11, 2001, the radically changed world geopolitics, General Musharraf has signed numerous international and United Nations declarations renouncing the use of terrorism and the harboring of terrorists. Nevertheless, the continuing terrorism by Pakistan-supported insurgents in both Afghanistan and India over the last couple of years demonstrate that the general's commitments are more cosmetic and tactical than genuine. To be sure, he has arrested 450 Arab al-Qaida terrorists, but he has shown nothing close to a similar resolve to crack down on Pakistani Islamic terrorists who wreak mayhem in both Afghanistan and India (even though the Arab and the Pakistani jihadis are incubated and indoctrinated in the same radical pan-Islamism.) For over two decades, Pakistan, and General Musharraf personally, have cultivated terrorists -- i.e., armed, funded, trained and infiltrated them into neighboring countries, as an instrument of Pakistan's state policy to gain political influence in Afghanistan and to bleed India into surrendering Kashmir. Is General Musharraf a genuinely reformed man and his most recent declaration to root out terrorism imbued with more truth than his prior declarations? Have the two recent assassination attempts on him proved to him that the Frankenstein monster of terrorism is now ready to devour its own master? The events over the coming months when the Himalayan snow melts will provide tangible proof whether Pakistan has now permanently shunned the use of terrorism and extremism. Despite all of Musharraf's pious assertions to the contrary, Pakistan remains today the epicenter and the breeding ground of all radical Islamic terrorism that threatens not only India but also the United States and the rest of the world. Coupled with this ignominious distinction, Pakistan is also the number one proliferator of dangerous nuclear weapons to North Korea, Iran, and Libya. However much the Bush administration may soft pedal Pakistan's image in the misguided pursuit of protecting Musharraf, Pakistan unquestionably qualifies as the most dangerous and unstable nation in the world. It urgently requires reform. Such reform will not succeed unless the Bush administration is willing to wield the stick as much as it has been willing to give away billions of dollars in economic and military aid to Musharraf. At the center of these reforms is the necessity for Pakistan to abandon its ideology of Muslim separatism, its compulsive obsession with Kashmir, and the underlying hostility to acquire it from India no matter what the cost. Successive military dictatorships in Pakistan have nurtured its entire population on this steady staple of hatred and unrealistic expectations to main their power and privileged position in society. The hatred of all so-called infidels -- Hindus, Jews, and Christians -- flows from this obscurantist ideology of Muslim separatism, which goes against the grain of globalization, economic interdependence, and peaceful coexistence among the peoples of this world. Pakistan must jettison this ideology, starting with its school curricula, for its own survival as well as for any chance of a lasting peace with India. While the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir legally belongs to India, Pakistan already occupies, illegally, more than a third of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. India has a larger Muslim population than Pakistan. Under no circumstance will India agree to a further partition of Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of a Muslim majority in the Vale of Kashmir and reopen the wounds of the partition of India, in 1947, which resulted in the loss of 1 million lives and the dislocation of 10 million. Musharraf and Pakistan must shed the unrealistic and insidious dream of forcing India, through proxy war or other means, into surrendering more of Jammu and Kashmir than Pakistan already occupies. Under no realistic or moral principle, or under any international law, can Pakistan expect more than to convert the present de facto border into an international boundary. Absent that understanding from Pakistan, the guns will regrettably be silent only as long as this cold winter lasts in the Himalayas. Sharad Bhatia, a U.S. citizen, was born in India. He is chief operating officer and general counsel of Ocean View Capital Inc., in Providence.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 17 2004, 11:38 PM
Cross Posted on Energy Thread QUETTA: A 107 mm rocket hit Quetta Cantt, while another rocket hit close to the Sui gas field on Friday.casualties or damage to property was reported. rocket hit Quetta Cantt at about 8.15pm.duty police constable Faiz Muhammad said the explosion caused a large crater in the ground, but property or life was not damaged. The military has closed all roads leading towards the blast site so as to avoid any casualties in case of another rocket attack. In the second incident, a rocket landed close to the Sui gas field, but caused no damage. If the Lotastaani Army cannot prevent Rocket Attacks in their Cantonment Areas nor in the Nations' Premier Gas Fields then how will they protect a Natural Gas Pipe Line or for that matter the Members of the Indian Cricket Team? Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 18 2004, 04:51 AM NEW DELHI: The operation in which two senior Hizbul Mujahideen commanders were killed in Held Kashmir soon after the Indo-Pakistan talks is being speculated in Srinagar as part of a “secret agreement” with Islamabad. Calling it a major success, Indian officials claim that they have almost wiped out the Hizbul Mujahideen’s entire top brass by killing its Deputy Supreme Commander Ghazi Nasiruddin besides Financial and Publicity Chief Fayyaz Ahmed and Deputy Commander Mohammad Abbas Malik within the past 48 hours. Many in Srinagar are trying to link the Indo-Pakistan peace process to the commanders’ killing. “The militancy in Indian Punjab was buried following former Pakistan prime minister Benazir Bhutto’s sharing of intelligence with former Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi. Perhaps history is repeating itself,” Kashmiri Sociologist Dr Khursheed told Daily Times. Pointing out to various recommendations forwarded by some US think tanks, he believed both countries had taken their (think tanks) advice and shared intelligence in this regard. Calling the meeting between Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee’s security advisor, Brijesh Mishra, and Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) chief “very vital”, observers here said there was every likelihood that the Pakistan government had decided to share intelligence with its Indian counterpart regarding militants operating in Held Kashmir. The killings have come at a time when the leader of moderate faction of the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) is travelling to New Delhi to meet Deputy PM LK Advani. Sources said Ghazi Nasiruddin alias Riyaz Rasool alias Ghulam Rasool Dar had actually come to Srinagar to pressure the moderate leadership not to enter into any accord with New Delhi. Sources further said it was a meeting between Jamaat-e-Islami Ameer Maulana Nazeer Ahmed Kashani and Ghazi Nasiruddin that led the former to pull out from the Ansari-led Hurriyat. He was trying to garner political support for Syed Ali Geelani, who had opposed talks with New Delhi, although backing the India-Pakistan détente. Interestingly, ruling People’s Democratic Party (PDP) President Mehbooba Mufti had recently said India might also start negotiating with the Hizbul Mujahideen leadership. Kashmiri experts here had longed for talks with militants rather than their political leadership to enforce a ceasefire. They viewed talks with the moderate leadership futile, as they had no control over the militants. Indian national daily, The Hindu, reported here on Saturday that both Ghazi Nasiruddin and Central Divisional Commander Abdul Rashid Pir had in fact met with a senior PDP leader. A senior National Conference (NC) leader had also met them in Srinagar. It is therefore believed here that a section within the Indian government was trying to rope in the Hizbul Mujahideen for negotiations and had even invited them to Srinagar. The process was, however, stymied by another section within the government by ordering the killings. An influential group here also believes that information about Ghazi’s whereabouts had come from within the Hizbul Mujahideen, as there was a feud within the organisation following the 2002 assassination of pro-dialogue commander Abdul Majid Dar. Cheers
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 18 2004, 07:34 AM
This whole dance with the Ghazis is dreadful. Anahilla, Prithiviraj, Rama Raya, Shahu Maharaj, Gandhi all flash before the mind's eye. All powers will bid peace to develop their economies so that they can deliver a coup de grace when their enemies are weak. Also remember cricket world cup 1992 (I nearly missed my PU examination) watching the Jihadis on a rampage by winning just a few key matches.
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 18 2004, 08:04 AM We better not be fooled by al Takhiya
Posted by: Kaushal Jan 18 2004, 12:31 PM It is not history that 'shackles' India and Pakistan to violence in Kashmir, but ideology. The fact that the very existence of Pakistan is, today, under threat and not the absurd and artificial 'formulae' that have, from time to time, been proposed for the resolution of the 'Kashmir issue', is the key to the future. It would be tedious to list out how many times India and Pakistan have 'agreed to talk', and the disastrous record of failure and recurrent violence. The Indian Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, noted rightly, at the South Asian Association for Regional Summit Cooperation (SAARC) at Islamabad last week, "History can remind us, guide us, teach us or warn us. It should not shackle us." It is, however, not history that 'shackles' India and Pakistan to violence in Kashmir, but ideology: the unrelenting ideology of extremist Islam that underlies the creation and existence of Pakistan - expressed in the two-nation theory that holds that Muslims and non-Muslims cannot coexist within the same political order - and that fuels the jehad factories that continue to feed the supply lines of terror across much of the world. This ideology, and no other legal or historical entitlement, is the basis of Pakistan's 'claim' on Kashmir; this again, is why the violence does not end. Cynicism, however, is not a particularly productive perspective, and it is useful to examine how the rhetoric of the unscheduled joint Indo-Pakistan Press Statement, which hijacked the agenda at the SAARC Summit, There are, of course, some voices for peace in Pakistan, and the new 'doves' are most voluble in the English language media. But what is, again, ignored, is the sentiment of the masses. is to be assessed. What, realistically, should be our expectations from the current 'peace process'? An examination of the harsh realities of the ground in Jammu & Kashmir (J&K) provides insufficient evidence of a radical discontinuity with past trends in terrorist violence. Violence did, of course, decline in year 2003, as compared to 2002, even as 2002 represented a decline against 2001 (Total fatalities, 2001: 4507; 2002: 3022; 2003: 2542). This downward trend is overwhelmingly seen as a consequence of a radically altered international context, and the increasing difficulty of managing the internal contradictions of the situation in Pakistan. There is sufficient evidence in the actions and statements of the Pakistani state and its leadership, which demonstrates no fundamental change in ideology, perspective or strategic intent. Nevertheless, for those who focus intently and exclusively on the 'ground realities', it is sometimes useful to remember that sentiment itself is part of this ground reality. And there are many, particularly in the English language Press in India and Pakistan, who believe that the sentiment has changed in South Asia, and that there is a genuine desire for peace and coexistence between the people of the two countries. Little of this was evidenced in the commentaries of the various Pakistani 'experts' who were allowed to swamp the Indian media during the SAARC summit, and who exhibited no dilution of the rigidity and stridency of their positions. Nor, indeed, does the average Indian believe that there is a possibility of a lasting peace between the two countries, given the track record of the past over five and a half decades. Indeed, with the large number of security personnel who have been dying in action against the Pakistan-sponsored terrorists in J&K, anger against Pakistan is high particularly among the rural population, from where most of India's soldiers are drawn. With each returning coffin, stories about those who die are repeated in the villages and in marketplaces across the countryside, and these have deeply influenced the thinking of common folk. There are, of course, some voices for peace in Pakistan, and the new 'doves' are most voluble in the English language media. But what is, again, ignored, is the sentiment of the masses, which finds more accurate expression in the vernacular Press. Thus, writing after the Islamabad Summit, one commentator in the Urdu daily, Nawa-e-Waqt, fumed: "We took a U-turn in Afghanistan to please America; we got our old friends killed by the Americans, and also killed them ourselves; but the whole advantage is going to India, and we are being pushed against the wall… we are going to take another (U-turn) on Kashmir, then, perhaps, our atomic programme (God forbid) will also be sacrificed to the U-turn. After so many U-turns, what will the people get?" The author's 'solution', in brief, was a 'thousand cuts', an old theme in the strategic community in Pakistan. These are sentiments that have been widely repeated in the Urdu media in that country. The assembly lines of the jehad, moreover, are still to be dismantled in Pakistan, and for the average Pakistani, the country's nuclear arsenal still remains its primary national asset, reflecting the degree of perversion the national psyche has undergone. But the strategy of a 'thousand cuts' against India has failed, and will hopefully fail wherever else it is tried. The truth is, there have been very significant transformations in South Asia, though the most momentous of these may not be the ones that the euphoria of the 'peace process' carries our attention to. For one, Musharraf, it must be explicitly recognised, has for some time now, been in dire need of relief. The international pressure - particularly after a continuing succession of disclosures relating to Pakistan's role in nuclear proliferation in North Korea, Iran and Libya, as well as on the potential leakage of such technologies to non-state terrorist entities - was becoming unbearable. There is, at present, almost a report, editorial or article a day in some of the most prominent American newspapers focusing on Pakistan's transgressions, both in connection with nuclear proliferation and international terrorism, as well as on Pakistan's deceit and duplicity with regard to its purported 'cooperation' with America in the 'global war against terrorism'. Internally, moreover, a range of economic and political pressures have been acting on Musharraf, and these peaked in two apparent attempts at assassination, which seem to have shaken the dictator's confidence in staying the course on Pakistan's enterprise of strategic overextension and sponsorship of terrorism. Under the circumstances, unfortunately, the deal at Islamabad has virtually let Pakistan off the hook, abruptly restoring a legitimacy that had steadily been eroded over the past more than two years. Indeed, the case that India had built against Pakistan over this period has virtually been dismantled through this single action, and it would be possible (though he may not choose this course of action in the immediate future) for Musharraf to continue his support to terrorism in J&K, even as he projects himself as the first target and victim of terrorism, creating an impenetrable veil of 'credible deniability' that will only be gradually worn away by repeated and extreme transgressions. Worse, it is now clear that, even if there are major acts of terrorism on Indian soil and their source identified to be located in Pakistan, the possibility or legitimacy of any strong reaction by India - including the suspension of talks and 'confidence building measures' - has substantially been eliminated. Musharraf would simply argue, as he has in the past, but more credibly now since his position has in some sense been validated by a 'peace process' with India, that these are lawless jehadis, acting without any official support, and that Pakistan and he personally were also targets of the same extremist elements. In this, it is useful to understand the degree to which India has yielded its past position, starting from the 'hardline' adopted during Operation Parakram. The Prime Minister had said that there would be no negotiations till Pakistan demonstrably ended support to terrorism and stopped cross border infiltration; till the infrastructure of terrorism in Pakistan had been dismantled; till those who were on India's 'list of 20 most wanted' had been handed over by Pakistan. Not one of these conditions has been fulfilled. But India has entered into talks with Pakistan now. Clearly, both parties in the process are, in the main, buying time, and there is little by way of a concrete strategy for resolution. The most significant element in this process, in fact, is not any possible set of 'solutions' that may be defined, but essentially the passage of time and the possible de-escalation of violence in the region while the two countries engage in 'confidence building measures'.
Eventually, Kashmir will be resolved, not by good intentions and neighbourly values, but by the necessity of changing circumstances in a world that is growing impatient with terrorism. There is now at least some evidence of fatigue and fear in the Pakistani leadership, and an increasing conviction that the adventurism of the past is not only unsustainable, but would, indeed, attract extreme penalties. The very existence of Pakistan is, today, under threat. This, and not the absurd and artificial 'formulae' that have, from time to time, been proposed for the resolution of the 'Kashmir issue', is the key to the future.
Posted by: Kaushal Jan 18 2004, 02:03 PM
The spate of articles on the clandestine activity of TSP is increasing in intensity and frequency. Finally the world is seeing the frankenstein they have unleashed by turning a blind eye to the shenanigans of the Paki scientists duringthe 70's and 80's.,6903,1125614,00.html quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revealed: how Pakistan fuels nuclear arms race Antony Barnett investigates the illegal global market in nuclear equipment and expertise and how the weapons programmes of Iran, Libya and North Korea all lead back to Pakistan Sunday January 18, 2004 The Observer The Austrian village of Seibersdorf is so anonymous that cab drivers from nearby Vienna have difficulty finding it. But it is home to a laboratory complex whose scientists have the power to start a war or keep the peace. Hunched over electron microscopes and mass spectrometers, they are the world's nuclear detectives, analysing minute fragments of radioactive matter collected by UN inspectors in places such as Iran and Libya. Testing particles as small as one-hundredth of the width of a human hair, they can spot the secret yet indelible signs of a nuclear programme. It was in Seibersdorf last summer that a scientist analysing dust taken from a cotton swipe used inside facilities in Iran discovered evidence of highly-enriched uranium - the key component of an atomic bomb. It was the first hint of a programme that had remained hidden for 18 years. Like DNA from a crime scene, analysis of these particles also provides vital clues to the source of any nuclear material. Each radioactive isotope has its own signature. Scientists at Seibersdorf work for the UN's nuclear watchdog - the International Atomic Energy Authority. They are just one part of a nuclear police force that is at the forefront of a war against a growing black market in nuclear material, equipment and atomic know-how. The battle involves rogue scientists selling their technical knowledge, nations desperate to join the nuclear weapon states and middlemen turn ing a quick buck by trading equipment and material. Dramatic evidence from Iran and now Libya reveals a clandestine and sophisticated network stretching from North Korea, Malaysia and China to Russia, Germany and Dubai. Yet one country more than any other stands accused of easing this proliferation. In the network of illegal radioactive trade, all roads point to Pakistan. More precisely, they lead to the Khan Research Laboratories in Kahuta in north Pakistan. Uranium 235 is the holy grail in bomb-making. It is a specific radioactive isotope whose atoms can split in two, releasing the huge amount of fissile energy vital to an atomic weapon. One way of acquiring it is to obtain uranium ore from the ground - which has minute amounts of uranium-235 - then 'enrich' it using thousands of centrifuges. This involves putting unrefined uranium into a tube and spinning it at twice the speed of sound to expel any impurities. By doing this, the amount of uranium-235 becomes more concentrated. While this process may not sound too complicated, it requires a feat of supreme technical engineering involving a number of complex components. In particular, the rotors of the centrifuge spin so fast they need to be made of extremely strong material and be perfectly balanced. In the mid-Seventies, these engineering problems were faced by a Pakistani metallurgist, Abdul Qadeer Khan. An ardent nationalist, he had just seen India test its first nuclear bomb. At the time he was working in Holland for an Anglo-Dutch-German nuclear engineering consortium called Urenco. Through his work there, Khan became aware of secret blueprints for two types of uranium enrichment centrifuges: one based on rotors made of aluminium and another based on a highly-strengthened alloy of steel. Khan went on to steal the blueprints and a list of Urenco suppliers. With the blessing of the then Pakistani government, he established the Khan Research Laboratories near Islamabad and, with the help of the Chinese, went on to secretly develop the country's atomic bomb. When, in 1998, Pakistan tested its first nuclear bomb in the desert of Baluchistan, Khan became a hero in his home country as the 'father of the Pakistani nuclear programme'. He once said: 'All Western countries are not only the enemies of Pakistan but in fact of Islam.' His fundamentalist sympathies mean that it is perhaps no surprise that he is also known as the 'godfather of the Islamic bomb'. Evidence has now emerged from Iran and Libya that Khan's programme in Pakistan may be the source of the greatest level of nuclear weapons proliferation since the Cold War. The Observer has learnt that UN inspectors who have recently visited a number of facilities in Libya discovered large amounts of aluminium centrifuge parts that had 'all the hallmarks of the Urenco designs' stolen by Khan. Pakistan used these to enrich uranium before later turning to the more complex steel centrifuges. A Vienna-based diplomat familiar with the Libyan inspections said: 'The big surprise was that components found were almost off-the-shelf turnkey equipment. It was as if somebody had been shopping at Ikea and just needed to put the bits together.' The diplomat said this was unlike Iraq's secret nuclear programme, which required large teams of scientists to deal with research issues and solve mechanical problems. He said: 'The worry is that if a country like Libya - with little industrial infrastructure and a small population - could lay its hands on this equipment, then a large country might be able to set up a weapons programme at a very fast pace indeed.' Libyan authorities have been helping the IAEA to piece together the 'cartel' of middlemen feeding this clandestine network of nuclear know-how and equipment. They have been helped by the US seizure of a German-registered ship in the Suez Canal last October destined for Libya with thousands of parts - believed to be Malaysian-made but based on Pakistani designs - for aluminium centrifuges. The UN inspectors uncovered evidence that many of the same middlemen were responsible for arming Libya and Iran. Last November, Iran finally admitted to a vast, secret procurement network that acquired thousands of sensitive parts and tools from numerous countries over an 18-year period. It is believed that rogue scientists from Pakistan, motivated by million-dollar payouts, were helped by German middlemen and Sri Lankan businessmen based in Dubai. The middlemen are believed to have secured items for Iran from European, Asian and North American companies. Until the end of last year the Pakistani government furiously denied that any of its nuclear technology had been 'exported'. However, it now accepts that 'certain individuals might have violated Pakistani laws for personal gain'. Last month Pakistan announced it was questioning four of its scientists over the sale of nuclear secrets, including Abdul Khan, but Western officials fear little will come of this inquiry. The political sensitivity of 'arresting' a national hero such as Khan would inflame Islamic sentiment and backfire on both the US and President Pervez Musharraf, who is an important ally in the war on terrorism. Yet while the 'rogue scientist' theory is helpful to all parties in explaining how Pakistani equipment has ended up in Libya and Iran, an added complication is the role played by North Korea. US intelligence claims that the Pakistani government, through the Khan laboratories, struck a deal which swapped Pakistani nuclear centrifuge technology for North Korean long-range missiles. South Korean intelligence agents were reported to have discovered the transactions in 2002 and that summer US spy satellites photographed Pakistani cargo planes loading missile parts in North Korea. Pakistan has denied such a deal, but pressure is mounting for Musharraf to clamp down. Reports have also emerged of Pakistani nuclear scientists visiting Burma. It is clear that the extent of the black market in nuclear weapons technology is only just beginning to emerge. As one of the scientists in Seibersdorf said: 'This year looks like being a busy one.' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 18 2004, 05:49 PM user posted image Please hand cuff me Added -Mudy ISLAMAWORST : Only President General Pervez Musharraf would know as to what was in his mind when he repeatedly waved his fists to the opposition but others have their own interpretations to this gesture. Musharraf once saluted the treasury benches and thrice waved his fists to the protesting opposition after he completed his long-awaited address to the joint session of the parliament. Danial Aziz likes to interpret Musharraf’s waving fists as a gesture to "cheer up" while the opposition leaders like Sardar Mehtab Ahmad Khan construed it as a sign of "shallowness". It was hard for those sitting in the galleries to miss Musharraf’s waving of his fists to the opposition that continued with its chorus of anti-Musharraf sloganeering throughout during the general’s speech. It was only the ARD that chose to anti-violent sloganeering protest while the MMA, now dubbed as "friendly opposition", had a paradoxical walkout within first few minutes of Musharraf’s 40-minute speech. "He proved by waving his fists that he is a shallow man," said Senator Mehtab Ahmad Khan, formerly chief minister of the Frontier province, who had faced over two years jail during Musharraf tenure before released on bail and acquitted by a court of law. On Musharraf’s fists waving Ch Nisar Ali Khan, the PML-N acting president said that it showed the general’s frustration. "The nation had welcomed it if General Musharraf would have waved his fists after defeating enemy’s army," Nisar sarcastically said while addressing a press conference in the parliament cafeteria after Musharraf’s address. However, the chairman national reconstruction bureau (NRB) Danial Aziz did not see any negativity in Musharraf’s raising his fists. For Aziz the gesture was meant to "cheers up" and to "buck up". "It was a signal for the nation to be firm in achieving the goals like poverty alleviation and stability, underlined in the President’s addressed," Aziz, who is also a PML—Q MNA said. For those who heard or viewed the president’s speech through the electronic media, the opposition’s protest was hardly audible. However, it was fairly loud for those who had witnessed the live show from the galleries of the house. General Musharraf did not stumble and read out his written speech uninterrupted. He was, however, sweating. One could see his face all wet on TV," a TV viewer said, commenting that he had this to show despite his all his power and after waiting for 15 months. "His situation looked pathetic on the TV and I was feeling he may collapse and fall down,"said the journalist. The treasury benches were encouraging Musharraf by desk thumping all along his speech even though the hall was deafening because of opposition sloganeering. The opposition was carrying the posters of Benzir Bhutto, Asif Ali Zardari and Nawaz Sharif, which they were turning towards Musharraf. Some opposition members were even carrying a few banners inscribed with slogans of "Javed Hashmi ko raha karo" (release Javed Hashmi) and Aain ka ghaddar, mot ka haqdar" (the one who has done treachery to constitution deserves death). The slogans which were chanted by the opposition in one voice include "go-Musharraf-go"; "go-dictator-go"; "Lathi goli ki sarkar nahin chalay gi"(government run through stick and bullet will not survive); "Colonel-general ki sarkar nahin chalay gi" (government of colonel-generals will not survive); and "Aamriat murda bad" (down with dictatorship). An opposition member even shouted at Musharraf saying "who is this stranger?" Unlike what the past civilian presidents like Ishaq Khan and Farooq Khan Leghari faced at the hands of the then opposition, Musharraf had the advantage that the opposition was not physically aggressive. There was no gharao, no throwing of duppattas (headscarf) or bangles and no physical effort to interrupt the speech. To the surprise of many PPPP MNA and Benazir’s confidant Nahid Khan did not even move from her seat during Musharraf’s speech. On the contrary Senator Saadia Abbasi of the PML-N was perhaps the most active amongst the opposition women MPs. She was shouting at the top of her voice and was pressing others too to join her. It was only when Musharraf was about to leave after his fists waving, some opposition members marched towards the president. But not only it was too late for them but there was also a sudden wall erected to safeguard Musharraf by the likes of Humayun Akhtar. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 19 2004, 02:02 AM * Says charges of nuclear proliferation, terrorism in Afghanistan and across LoC and extremism at home major challenges facing Pakistan * No one will be allowed to defame Army and other institutions * Seeks peaceful settlement of Kashmir dispute * Thanks MPs for reposing confidence in him Peregrine, please paste Mushy photo from this site.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 19 2004, 06:44 AM,00050002.htm .. "Pakistan has raised certain objections on the design of the project and we have tried to address their concerns and apprehensions,'' Mehta said.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 19 2004, 03:06 PM
From the Financial Times : The first ever delegation of Pakistan software and IT executives will visit India next month following the sharp improvement in relations between the nuclear-armed neighbours earlier this month. The trip has attracted great interest in Pakistan's fledgling information technology industry because of India's dramatic growth success in the past five years. Last year India exported almost $15bn (€11.9bn, £8.2bn) in software and IT-related services compared with just $30m for Pakistan. Jehan Ara, president of Pasha (Pakistan Software Houses Association), said people had signed up in spite of the fact that it coincides on February 2 with Eid-ul-Adha, an important festival marking the end of the Haj - or time of pilgrimage - to Mecca. Ms Ara, who owns a software company based in Karachi, Pakistan's commercial capital, says local IT companies want to exploit the thaw in relations to create joint ventures with their Indian counterparts. "There is also a great deal we can learn from the Indian software experience," she says. "India's IT sector has big lobbying influence in New Delhi and they have been able to market India's software sector very effectively around the world." Kiran Karnik, head of Nasscom, India's software association, which initiated the trip, says he hopes the two associations can create commercial incentives for their governments to persist on the path of negotiations. "We can share experience in terms of lobbying clout," he said. "There are plenty of business opportunities between Indian and Pakistan IT companies." But Pasha's main concern is to persuade Islamabad to improve the domestic climate for business, where Pakistan's bureaucracy continues to be a hindrance. For example, 25 companies have now received approval to set up offshore call centres in Pakistan. But they are still constrained by Islamabad's ban on voice-over internet telephony. "I have one friend who owns a call centre who has been raided by the police for using Voip," says Zunaira Durrani, editor of Spider, Pakistan's leading internet magazine. "Others have to wait months to get their telephony connections. Indian call centre businesses get a lot of help from government." Pakistan executives say their country has precisely the same comparative advantage as India when it comes to business process outsourcing - a large supply of English-speaking graduated.gifs available at low wages. But Pakistan lacks an advantage in software since the country does not have the type of technology and engineering institutes for which India is renowned. "We are lobbying the bureaucrats hard to put more money into technical education," says Ms Ara. "We also want educational exchange programmes with India." Ms Ara and others are also motivated about the possibilities of IT for women in Pakistan. "It is very popular with women because the environment is safe and you can work from home," she said. India is bent upon providing Lotastaan with more and more Financial and Economic Benefits so that it can Finance the Lotastaani Armed Forces and Jihadis-Mujahideens to commit more Terrorist Atrocities in India. Cheers
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 19 2004, 10:27 PM
This is un believable . We work hard for 30 years to make some thing out of our resource pool and on fine day , we decide to share it with the mass murderer who is hell bent on making us equal-equal beggars like him and shatter us and eventually destroy us. frusty.gif furious.gif When will all this "Love thy enemy" nonsense stop ? Haumma > What is Al Takhiya Fist waving riff raff... ROTFL.gif . Mushy looks like a scared 4 year old who has to perform a small 3 minute routine at the school day function. The gesture seems so phoney .... anyway ... great article
Posted by: Krishna Jan 20 2004, 12:09 AM
This is ridiculous! furious.gif Sara mehnat hum karey aur aam khaye yeh terrorist log! furious.gif Shame on GOI! thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
Posted by: Sudhir Jan 20 2004, 12:35 AM
Ms Ara, who owns a software company based in Karachi, Pakistan's commercial capital, says local IT companies want to exploit the thaw in relations to create joint ventures with their Indian counterparts.
Yes, truly depressing that we are handing over everything on a platter to our terrorist neighbours. I say, where is the outrage by Indians? Why blame only the idiots like Dalmiya or Urimla? What's up with our IT houses? Are they comfortable sending their guys to Pukiland to 'train' Pukis about our success? Any IT firm that goes on "joint venture" with pukes will be undercut in terms of prices - will serve the fools right. Let's wait and see what our genius like Moorthy, Premji or those NASSCOM people say about this. Why are all our cricketers who are to play in the Pukistan quite; after all it's their neck on the line - (remember Danny Pearl)? Even teams from NZ, SA think twice before travelling to this cesspool. Why is there no outrage the media/industry sponsors of these matches? Eye on the fat profits while turning a blind eye to our fellow citizens in Kashmir? Why is India army/military silent? Being apolitical is one thing - but this slient accquiensce to matches for Pukis to fill it's coffer to fund another jihad is another thing. Why is our 'premier' military website which supposedly gets more hits than average newspaper wink.gif quite too on this topic - you know writing gazzillion lines of post about dorky Cohen or why a particular newspaper is "bullying India on Kashmir"? Aare bhai - apna sikkha he khotta hai to kya kare? grenade.gif No point in blaming others thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif sleepysmileyanim.gif Maybe time to hibernate for rest of the winter.........
Posted by: Mudy Jan 20 2004, 12:41 AM
Don't worry, very soon this honeymoon will over. Till then let them have some good time. India Inc, Bollywood,English media and western relatives are forcing this marriage cum dating, Hey it never worked for last 50 years, it will never work in future. I am preparing for Divorce party. Cheers, all are invited with fireworks cheers.gif guitar.gif History of Indo-Pak Marriage Mountbatten tried, but he was Lalita Pawar. Kennedy tried but he was Helen. Clinton tried but he was Bindu. China is trying and he is Ranjit.
Posted by: k.ram Jan 20 2004, 12:51 AM
SSR, Here is the link for Al Takiyah
Posted by: Sudhir Jan 20 2004, 12:53 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 20 2004, 12:41 AM)
Don't worry, very soon this honeymoon will over. Till then let them have some good time.
The problem is that Pakis are having a good time while we are paying alimony during this brief honeymoon period. mad.gif
History of Indo-Pak Marriage Mountbatten tried, but he was Lalita Pawar. Kennedy tried but he was Helen. Clinton tried but he was Bindu. China is trying and he is Ranjit.
Methinks AVB tried (thrice) and he is Prithviraj (Chauhan - not Kapoor) tongue.gif
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 20 2004, 01:00 AM and my letter to the editor furious.gif Dear Washington Times editor, I was appalled to read the article "Taproots of South Asian Turbulance". The specious arguments of Ghulam Nabi Fai do not even pass the giggle test with any one who has ,even the most superficial history of the sub-continent and it's partition. First of all, I am amazed by the sublime grouping of Pakistan with India under the "South-Asian" Banner. In spite of India having it's share of difficulties , it is emerging as a major economic power house ,in the region despite the best efforts of many who feel threatened by it. I will not even waste your time trying to differentiate in the areas of nuclear proliferation and Missile proliferation. The author artfully mentions the Pakistan occupied Kashmir as "Azad" or Free Kashmir and the Indian held Kashmir as Illegal. While harping on the UN resolutions, he conveniently forgets to mention that Pakistan while refusing to withdraw from POK , has gone ahead and ceded a portion of POK to China !!!!. Not an insignificant fact to omit. He also fails to mention the ethnic cleansing of the Kashmiri Pundits, Buddhists , Christians and others by Pakistan sponsored terrorists and colluding Kashmiri fundamentalists. While mentioning the Human rights issue he artfully omits Pakistan's appalling record ( Balwaristan, Baluchistan etc ) , not to mention the brutal policy of ethnic cleansing by the "Freedom fighters" syndicate. There are so many biased arguments , Half truths and lies in this article that I do not know where to begin. Even though this is an opinion column , I would expect at least a semblance of fairness from an article published in a world class news paper like yours. Truly
Posted by: Sudhir Jan 20 2004, 01:07 AM
From one of Varsha Bhosle's columns - bit old:
But here's the bitch of it: After Miya Bhutto's taking Mrs G for a ride in 1972, a certain parliamentarian moved an amendment to the official motion in the Lok Sabha, which said that the Simla Pact failed to assure the "durable peace" that Mrs G had promised to achieve through a "package deal" to end the Kashmir dispute forever; and it condemned the Pact for ceding gained territory without requiring Pakistan to return the territories it illegally occupied. Another parliamentarian who refused to buy Mrs G's claims said in the Rajya Sabha that the pact was not only a betrayal of the nation and of the jawans, but also a wilful contempt of Parliament. That Lok Sabha member was Atal Bihari Vajpayee. And the Rajya Sabha member was L K Advani... Makes one see the China memorandum and the "hand of friendship" to Pakistan in a whole new light, nah?
Posted by: Mudy Jan 20 2004, 01:11 AM
SSRamachandran, Good job, Fai is J&K born traitor, He wanna be Kashmir King. Sudhir,
we are paying alimony
One has to pay price for bad choice.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 20 2004, 05:34 AM India should take a leaf from the EU's book about dealing with Lotastaan Cheers
Posted by: k.ram Jan 20 2004, 08:08 PM Pakistan not to give up Kashmir, nuke programme: Musharraf By Indo-Asian News Service Islamabad, Jan 20 (IANS) Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said his country is fully conscious of its national interests and there is no question of a sell-out on Kashmir or nuclear programme, reports Xinhua. "Kashmir and strategic assets are our national interests and we will not give them up," he said in response to a question here prior to his departure for the Turkish capital Ankara. But he said Pakistan wanted to resolve the Kashmir problem in an amicable and peaceful manner. He said a dialogue process between Pakistan and India would be initiated and he hoped that "the two countries realise that they have to move forward on Kashmir and all other issues, if this process is to succeed". He said Pakistan was a nuclear and missile state and would remain so. "We are developing and refining our capabilities. There is no question of a sell-out on either of these (Kashmir and strategic assets)."
Posted by: Viren Jan 20 2004, 09:09 PM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 19 2004, 03:30 PM)
and my letter to the editor furious.gif
Way to go SSR specool.gif Fai considers himself to be the Chalabi equivalent in Kashmir and has been hoping for either US or Paki to 'liberate' Kashmir. The crapy op-ed peice by Fai is another desparate cry for help - the recent thaw in Indo-Pak relations might be giving him some sleepless nights cool.gif over his "job security".
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 20 2004, 10:02 PM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 19 2004, 11:57 AM)
Haumma > What is Al Takhiya
Islamic policy of foolery and concealment when overwhelmed by the Kaffirs. See:
Posted by: Viren Jan 21 2004, 12:39 AM
Sad state of affairs in the Lottastan...these are the very same idiots who are going to "liberate" other muslims in "south asia" grenade.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 21 2004, 03:33 AM ISLAMABAD — Pakistan and India are most likely to reach an agreement for the issuance of special travel permits for Muzaffarabad-Srinagar bus service instead of visas, The Nation reliably learnt Tuesday. “The two countries have almost agreed upon doing away with the visa requirements for road travel between Muzaffarabad and Srinagar and they are likely to come up with a decision to issue special permits to the people in this regard,” the sources said. They said that the issue was thoroughly discussed through diplomatic channels by the two countries and it also figured in the meeting between Indian High Commissioner in Pakistan Shiv Shankar Menon and Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri here at the Foreign Office. The travel permits would be issued by some competent authorities in Muzaffarabad and Srinagar to facilitate the people. The senior government official appointed for the purpose would be authorised to to give permit, the sources said. AJK Prime Minister Sardar Sikander Hayat recently held important meetings with senior government officials in Islamabad and discussed matters pertaining to the repair of Muzaffarabad-Srinagar road. The prime minister informed the Pakistani officials that the repair work would be carried out quickly. A Press statement issued after the meeting between the Foreign Minister and Indian High Commissioner said that developments in the relations between Pakistan and India following the meeting between the President of Pakistan and the Prime Minister of India earlier this month were reviewed on the occasion. In this context they also discussed the process of composite dialogue starting next month. It may be recalled that the joint Press statement, issued after the meeting between President Musharraf and Prime Minister Vajpayee had underlined that the resumption of composite dialogue will lead to a peaceful settlement of all issues including Jammu and Kashmir. Foreign Office Spokesman Masood Khan said that matters pertaining to the composite dialogue were discussed in the meeting. He said it was decided to sort out the modalities of dialogue through diplomatic channels. He said that this process would be completed soon. The Indian High Commissioner also held meeting with Speaker National Assembly Chaudhry Amir Hussain and discused matters of mutual interest. It was agreed on the occasion that both the countries should opt for dialogue to resolve their bilateral problems. According to a statement, the NA Speaker said the history had provided India and Pakistan a unique opportunity to normalise bilateral relations and it must be seized to bring healthy changes in the life of their citizens. He asked the High Commissioner to support Pakistan in its bid to revive Commonwealth membership. He reminded the High Commissioner of Pakistan’s support for India in the Inter-Parliamentary Union election in Egypt and hoped that India would reciprocate in Commonwealth. Well folks to get his Nobel Prize Prime Minister Give Away Vajpayee Ji must continue to Give Away. This Non-Visa regime will of course lead to negating the construction of the Border Fence as now the Lotastaani Terrorist Jehadi Mujahideens can enter India on Official Permits. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 21 2004, 04:48 AM
Europe’s creed of intolerance Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 21 2004, 04:55 AM
The secularism argument has given legitimacy to the growing anti-Islam tide that prevails in the West and which 9/11 allowed to become overt. Of course, the logic of the headscarf being a threat to the essence of French secularism may well be expanded to greater heights of absurdity. If the argument is that French Muslims should fall in line with mainstream French ‘secular’ society, then tomorrow Muslim girls will be targeted again for their more conservative morality. After all, someone may make the argument that if Muslim girls do not have sex before marriage or do not go in for contraception, they are threatening the French way of life and secularism! So will Muslim girls be forced to accept these social norms, as they are now being forced to discard their modest clothing, including the headscarf in school? Where will the eventual line be drawn on the notion of secularism? And how secular is France in any case? Do they give public holidays for all religions or is only Christmas a public holiday? How does that fit in with the secular nature of the state? Perhaps it is time the 5 million Muslims of France should ask that question since they are to accept the French notion of secularism
Madam is in thinking mode, as usual YYY
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 21 2004, 05:20 AM Cheers
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 21 2004, 11:09 PM
Perhaps it is time the 5 million Muslims of France should ask that question since they are to accept the French notion of secularism
And we will give moral and political support to those 5 million muslims. Said , Madam Jelabei . ROTFL.gif
Posted by: G.Subramaniam Jan 22 2004, 08:31 AM
The real threat from Pakistan is islamic demographic invasion which the #$%^ $%^&*%^& is abetting by loosening travel restrictions GS, I understand your POV, and appreciate it, but I must request you to refrain from using abusing language for our PM, please!
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 22 2004, 05:12 PM
Cross Posted on the Cricket Thread : LONDON: England appear set to pull out of a planned cricket tour of Zimbabwe after the sport’s governing body produced a report concluding that cancellation would be justified on moral grounds. The report, drawn up by England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) corporate affairs chairman Des Wilson, said concerns over Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe’s human rights record could and should be taken into account when the ECB decides on January 29 whether to proceed with the November tour. “Can we tour this country knowing what we do about its stance on human rights and the suffering of its people?,” Wilson’s report concluded. “The safety and security of a touring party can in today’s circumstances no longer be the only factor in deciding whether or not to proceed with a controversial tour.” Wilson’s recommendations, if implemented, would represent a major departure from the existing policy of the ECB and the International Cricket Council (ICC), the sport’s world governing body. To date, both bodies have insisted that matches or tours can only be cancelled on security grounds. Wilson stressed Wednesday that no decision had been taken. “This is the management board’s decision, not mine. I am merely suggesting the factors they should take into account,” he told BBC Radio. But after his report received blanket coverage throughout the British press, it is hard to see how the ECB could now give the go-ahead to the tour without suffering a major public relations embarrassment. The Zimbabwean Cricket Union (ZCU) reacted to Wilson’s report by appealing to the ECB to honour their commitment to tour in return for Zimbabwe coming to England in 2003. ZCU chairman Peter Chingoka said: “In the light of the uncertainty that appears to exist in England, the ZCU has now written to (ECB chairman) David Morgan, asking him to urgently confirm the commitment he gave on behalf of the ECB to our board of directors in Harare last March.” Chingoka added: “Having honoured our word that we would tour the UK we naturally expect England to reciprocate by touring Zimbabwe.” England’s promise to tour Zimbabwe followed the team’s boycott of a World Cup match in Harare last year on security grounds. The ICC ruled that England were not justified in that decision and docked them World Cup points as well as withholding 2.3 million pounds of their share of tournament revenues. England’s then-captain, Nasser Hussain, who saw his side’s morale sapped by months of prevarication over the Harare match, said he welcomed the early discussions of the issues this time around. “Hopefully, we have learned from the mistakes of last time and people are talking about whether it is appropriate to play there and not leaving it to the players.” Although England faced financial penalties for pulling out of the World Cup match, there is little the ICC or Zimbabwe can do if they decide to withdraw from a bilateral tour. The ECB could even save money this time. One of English cricket’s major sponsors, communications firm Vodafone, has warned it may withdraw its three million pounds ($5.4 million, 4.3 million euros) per year backing if the tour goes ahead. The ICC have repeatedy said the changing nature of governmental regimes in some of the sport’s major nations would throw world cricket into chaos if cancellation for political or moral, rather than safety, reasons became accepted practice. Bangladesh in February, Sri Lanka in April and Australia in May and June are all set to tour Zimbabwe before England. Cricket Australia is due to send a delegation to Zimbabwe in March to assess the situation. Zimbabwe, currently on tour in Australia, are due in England in September for the ICC’s Champions Trophy one-day tournament. —AFP The England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) can cancel a Tour on Moral grounds and our Dalmiya refuses to cancel it even on Safety and Security Grounds. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 22 2004, 10:11 PM
Posted by: Mudy Jan 22 2004, 10:23 PM
Received by email: The Monster Within Once nurtured by Musharraf, the violent group Jaish-e-Muhammad now seems bent on killing him BY TIM MCGIRK | ISLAMABAD In the half-hour before Mohammed Jamil ended his life, he was a busy man. As he sat in a pickup truck loaded with C4 plastic explosives, he made and received no fewer than 109 calls on his cell phone, talking, at least in some cases, to accomplices in his effort to incinerate the President of Pakistan. Jamil, 23, might have assumed that the evidence he was creating would disintegrate in the blast he planned for Pervez Musharraf. If he did, he was wrong. Not only did he and a second car bomber fail to kill Musharraf in their Dec. 25 attempt, but the memory card of Jamil's cell phone, which investigators found intact amid the detritus of the blasts, has led authorities to dozens of suspected collaborators. Many belong to a violent Pakistani extremist group, Jaish-e-Muhammad. Once allied with Musharraf's government, the group is now linked to al-Qaeda, whose leader, Osama bin Laden, called for Musharraf's overthrow in a recent audiotape. One phone call that particularly disturbed investigators was between Jamil and a policeman on Musharraf's security beat. An investigator on the case told TIME that the policeman, who has been arrested and is being interrogated, informed Jamil in which car Musharraf-who uses several decoy limousines-was riding. U.S. and Pakistani investigators say they believe that insiders within the President's guard were also in on a failed Dec. 14 hit, allowing would-be killers to plant five explosive charges under a bridge that blew up just after Musharraf crossed it. Jaish-e-Muhammad is also suspected in that near miss. Under a new order, police officers assigned to the President's motorcade are prohibited from carrying cell phones while on duty for fear they will use them to coordinate attacks on Musharraf. That Jaish-e-Muhammad has the capacity to launch sophisticated attacks on the President, possibly with insider help, is a situation partly of Musharraf's making. The government in Islamabad has long coddled militant Islamic groups, encouraging them first to help drive the Soviets out of neighboring Afghanistan and later to torment Indian troops in the part of the disputed state of Kashmir that is under Indian control. It was to this latter cause that Jaish-e-Muhammad was devoted. Official tolerance of these groups, and in some cases assistance to them, continued after Musharraf took power in a 1999 coup. The President was especially supportive of Jaish-e-Muhammad's leader, warrior-cleric Maulana Masood Azhar. When Azhar was released from an Indian jail in a prisoner exchange in December 2000, he was permitted to stage a huge rally in Karachi attended by gun-toting followers. In 2001 Musharraf even tried unsuccessfully to persuade the various Kashmiri guerrilla groups to unite under Azhar. The government's partnership with extremists was tested after 9/11, however, when Musharraf sided with the Bush Administration in its battle against Islamic militancy. Even so, Musharraf treated homegrown radicals gingerly at first. Under pressure from Washington, he banned various militant organizations in January 2002, but he left their leaders largely unfettered and allowed the organizations to reconstitute under new names. When it came to Jaish-e-Muhammad, Musharraf acted like a parent in denial after his favorite son has turned delinquent. Pakistan's intelligence services, which had helped build up the group and infiltrate its fighters into Indian-controlled Kashmir, were hesitant to crack down, even after Jaish-e-Muhammad began unleashing religious terrorism within Pakistan. Officials hold the outfit and its offshoots responsible for a May 2002 bombing in Karachi that killed 11 French naval technicians and another explosion outside the U.S. consulate in the same city in June 2002 that killed 12 Pakistanis. Diplomats in Islamabad say that one reason Musharraf was reluctant to get tough on Muslim extremists was that most were allied with religious parties he needed to prop up his regime. After the two attempts on his life, Musharraf seems to have a new attitude. Acting on information gleaned from Jamil's cell phone, police in the central region of Punjab last week arrested more than 35 suspects from mosques and seminaries, most thought to be connected to Jaish-e-Muhammad. An unspecified number were released. Still, U.S. officials are encouraged that Musharraf finally seems committed to going after Jaish-e-Muhammad, a request Washington has made to Islamabad for years, to little effect. "He's serious," says a U.S. State Department official. "He was born again on Dec. 25." One of those arrested last week was wanted as an accessory in the January 2002 abduction and murder of U.S. journalist Daniel Pearl. The Pakistanis have already convicted Ahmad Omar Saeed Sheikh, a militant close to Jaish-e-Muhammad, of abducting Pearl and sentenced him to death. A witness says it was al-Qaeda commander Khalid Shaikh Mohammed who actually killed the journalist. Arrested by the U.S. on March 1, 2003, Mohammed remains in U.S. custody. According to a senior Pakistani antiterrorism official, he is being held at a military base on Diego Garcia. Pakistan's Interior Minister, Faisal Saleh Hayat, told TIME "there's a strong possibility" that the Dec. 25 plotters were also "involved with al-Qaeda." The two groups certainly know each other. Throughout the 1990s, before marching off to fight the Indians in Kashmir, Jaish-e-Muhammad militants crossed into Afghanistan to attend al-Qaeda training camps. Pakistan's intelligence services looked the other way. Officials in Pakistan say that these days Jaish-e-Muhammad activists give shelter to al-Qaeda militants and that al-Qaeda provides funding and guidance to Jaish-e-Muhammad, perhaps contracting the group out for killings. Says retired General Talat Masood, a consultant on security affairs in Islamabad: "The military had an alliance with these jihadi groups, but they got totally out of control." Suicide bomber Jamil was known to Pakistani intelligence. A reedy young man from the village of Rawalakot in the Himalayan foothills near the Indian border, he fought alongside the Taliban against the Americans in Afghanistan. Wounded in the fall of Kabul, he was allowed to return home to Pakistan. On arrival in Peshawar, he was interrogated by Pakistani intelligence services and dismissed as harmless in April 2002. Like many Muslim extremists, Jamil, according to his relatives in Rawalakot, viewed Musharraf as too pro-Western. Militants complain that Musharraf betrayed the Taliban and, given his peace overtures to India in early January, they now accuse him of selling out Kashmiri Muslims too. Jamil's rants against the U.S. and Musharraf were so incessant that his family kicked him out, neighbors say. But was Jamil the ringleader of the Dec. 25 plot? "Of course not," scoffs Interior Minister Hayat. "The ringleaders never blow themselves up. They get minions to do that." However dedicated Musharraf may now be to weeding out Pakistan's extremists, the task will be long and dangerous. On Thursday, terrorists in Karachi bombed a Christian study center, injuring 14 people. Says Hayat: "Their tentacles are spread far and wide." On the run now, these groups may be more dangerous than ever. Says an ex-commander of one of them in Lahore: "The boys aren't listening to anyone. They're desperate. They don't accept that the days of jihad are over." -With reporting by Massimo Calabresi/Washington and Ghulam Hasnain/Lahore
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 22 2004, 10:39 PM
Mudy, The Link, Ma’am :,9171,1101040126-578991-2,00.html Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 23 2004, 04:16 AM
When asked about the issue of nuclear proliferation, President Musharraf categorically stated, “Let me assure you Pakistan is an extremely responsible state. All strategic assets are under total custodial control. Pakistan government has never and will never proliferate.” Musharraf said, “there are aspersions on some Pakistani scientists but they are not alone. There are aspersions on scientists of other countries and those belonging to the underworld. This needs to be investigated.” He said, investigations are being carried out whether for personal gains somebody did something wrong. He said anyone found guilty would be treated as “anti-state element.” He reiterated his guarantee that Pakistan will not proliferate and its nuclear assets were in extremely safe hands.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 23 2004, 09:00 PM
liar.gif pakee.gif Now that the high general himself has given his word , I can sleep better at night . .Phew.... I was worried all the time. Yesterday , I saw the creep musharaf talk to Israeli ex-priminister , Shimon pares ( I might be wrong) . The creep was smiling and GUBO ing on camera. They reported it like it is some great news on the arab media.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 23 2004, 09:38 PM
Where is Pakis honor and dignity??Pakistan president tells Israeli newspaper he will be glad to visit During the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Pervez Musharraf, President of Pakistan, held a long conversation with Israeli opposition leader, Shimon Peres, and even shook his hand, Maariv website reported on Friday. The meeting resulted from a random encounter between the two figures. Musharraf recognized Peres among the hundreds of guests at the hotel’s main lobby, approached him, and warmly shook his hand, the Tel Aviv-based newspaper reported. Peres was the one to initiate the conversation, saying: “Mr. President, there are so many rumors about the relations being formed between our countries”. Musharraf smiled heartily and confirmed the message. “We are undertaking great efforts for this to happen”, he said, but added: “You hold the responsibility to move forward with the Palestinians”. At the end of the conversation, Peres invited Musharraf to visit Israel, with the Pakistani president replying: “Inshallah” (God willing) as the two parted warmly. Musharraf then turned to answer Maariv’s question about his intention to accept Peres’ invitation, saying that once ties between the two sides are normalized, he will be glad to visit Israel. (
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 23 2004, 10:03 PM
Sorry no link ... Sent this to my co workers , cannot find the link anymore it was on the daily dung Indo-Russian deal The $1.5 billion dollar Indo-Russian ‘historic’ deal for purchase of a Russian aircraft carrier for the Indian Navy is not likely to help the process of creating normality and peace in the region. devilsmiley.gif It will, at the least, give a new filip to the arms race as the latest acquisition which includes MiG 29-K maritime jets will give an extra edge to India’s military muscle. ( Your typical paki whine) blow.gif This development is surprising as it was expected that the efforts by both India and Pakistan to undertake confidence building measures will also include parallel steps to remove their decades old mutual suspicions ( These idiots cannot fathom that India does not consider pakistan in every one of it's descisions...some of the same old India Pakistan equal-equal and india is so afraid of pakistan every thing it does is because of pakistan delusion) . pakee.gif But, it is now unlikely that the old fears will be allayed with Delhi continuing to strengthen its military might with massive purchases and plans to buy more defence equipment. The only lesson that could be drawn from this buying spree is that peace in the region is still a dream ( Give peace a chance destroy pakistan smile.gif ). There can possibly be no immediate let up to the arms race as all sides would now not only need to be prepared but ensure a credible punch ( some of your old fashioned 1 paki = 10 Hindu talk...even though we cant match you conventionally , we can nuke you ). It will be interesting to see how India will explain away this latest acquisition vis-a-vis its ad nauseam repetition of favouring peace and good relations with Pakistan ( There is no need for explaination ... for some reason , pukeis think that the entire world is also under India pak equal - equal delusion ) . In fact the ongoing splurge of bonhomie between the two states had greatly succeeded in erasing many of their latent fears and showing a willingness to soften their borders for easier travel. These moves can only indicate their growing sense of confidence in each other. Such a positive atmosphere which has emerged after years of tension and confrontation needs to be maintained at all costs if both sides desire to make South Asia a region of peace and prosperity( India is already prosperous 4 th lagest economy in the world !!!. .... some of the same old equal equal nonsense ) . It will also help to nullify the need for spending large amounts of scarce financial resources on defence. Neither country can afford an arms race while at the same time trying to demolish the massive mountain of poverty that keeps over a third of their population in utter economic destitution ( This is pukei begging innovation at it's best .... " Please do not buy more wepons and make us look bad , you know we can not keep up with you ....But if we admit that our own jihadhis will kill please ..please pretty please...but I can not beg either because if I do so , I will loose our Honour and dignity and if I do that the jihadhis will kill us I am going to say things like .... IF YOU STAY A BEGGAR LIKE ME AND NOT IMPROVE , WE CAN HAVE PEACE"). Converted into figures this makes South Asia into the biggest region of abject poverty. Somehow large defence forces are not in sync with the efforts to overcome impoverishment. However, India’s shopping list is not confined only to the purchase of the Russian aircraft carrier, the 44,570 tonne Admiral Gorshkov as there are plans to acquire six French submarines besides more military hardware from Russia. It has not explained the urgency for such large purchases nor whether it will be the end. This question needs to be agitated by the international community as it must be well aware of the impact such a situation can have locally. ( Again .... we screwed up for the past 50 years ... now the world should come and rescue me or else I will let loose the jihadhis and nuke every one ...but please dont nuke me ...because ...we give only moral and diplomatic support to the jihadhis) This should be the least desired outcome as this region has already experienced too many wars and there is need for respite. THESE PEOPLE MAKE ME WANT TO THROW UP. furious.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 23 2004, 10:50 PM
SSRamachandran : The Dung Link : BTW : With the brilliant Indian Naval Planners “renovating” the Admiral Gorshkov the vessel will cost between USD 40 and 50 Million more to run Annually than when it operated under the Russians. More power to the Indian Navy Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 23 2004, 10:53 PM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 23 2004, 10:20 PM)
I think we need a paki begging bowl emoticon . It will be very useful biggrin.gif
SSRamachandran : The Ideal Emoticon for Lotastaan will be a "Begging Bowl in the Form of a Lota" Lotastaan : An Army Cantonment Masquerading as a Nation Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 24 2004, 01:16 AM clap.gif ISLAMAWORST (AFP) -Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said Friday Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorist network may have ordered two assassination attempts which he narrowly escaped last month. "The people who are behind that, yes we are reasonably sure that it is al-Qaeda," he told CNN in an interview from the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. General Musharraf escaped by a matter of seconds an explosion on a bridge which his motorcade travelled over on December 14, and a twin suicide bomb attack on Christmas Day. "We haven't yet got to the top of identifying the person who has issued the order, but we know there are linkages that maybe the idea came from the al-Qaeda," Musharraf said. "But on the other side who has executed it, and whether there's an organisation behind the executors or some individual extremists are involved, that is still to be clarified." Investigators have "rounded up all the people directly involved," he added, without revealing how many suspects were detained. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 24 2004, 10:40 AM By Irfan Husain Having spent the last three months in Karachi with brief interludes in Wah, Lahore and Sri Lanka, I find the sudden mushrooming of private TV channels the most refreshing change in Pakistan in a long time. Suddenly, subjects long considered taboo by the state-controlled PTV are being debated live. Heated discussions are now taking place on major events like the break-up of Pakistan in 1971, Bhutto's judicial murder and the army's dismissal of elected governments. Current political events are also being openly and energetically debated: even the military's nation-wide real estate operations are now no longer off-bounds. In short, there are no longer many sacred cows that cannot be targeted. This development is specially welcome in a country where people do not read very much: I was shocked when my old friend Ghazi Salahuddin informed me recently that the combined circulation of all newspapers in Pakistan in every region and in every language is less than the sale of newspapers in New Delhi alone. biggrin.gif One reason for this is that our newspapers cost several times what an average Indian paper costs (around Rs 10 against Rs 1.50). The other reason, of course, is the low literacy rate here. Thus, far more Pakistanis watch TV than read newspapers. Earlier, we were forced to watch the rubbish aired by PTV in the garb of political discussions. These consisted of tightly scripted and censored programmes where a group of talking heads solemnly agreed with the official line. Then, mercifully, CNN and the BBC came to our rescue, but as these are in English, many Pakistanis still had to suffer PTV's puerile programming. Now, finally, a number of local channels have stepped in to satisfy the appetite for honest, uncensored debate on a wide range of national issues. A few weeks ago, a London-based Urdu channel had Mustafa Khar tell us about Bhutto's last torments at the hands of his army gaolers. Then he took on Ijazul Haq, Zia's son, who was also present in the studio, and asked him to identify the source of his healthy bank balance, alleging that the late dictator had lined his pockets during his baneful stint. This kind of televised hatchet-job would have been unthinkable a year ago. Another very useful role the new channels are playing is of informing us of points of view the state had successfully kept out of the public eye thus far. For instance, when the Indian foreign minister was interviewed before the Saarc summit, he categorically accused Pakistan of refusing to submit to the 1948 UN Security Council resolutions on Kashmir. So far, Pakistanis have been brainwashed into believing that it was India who did not permit a plebiscite in Kashmir. But in actual fact, the resolutions clearly called for the withdrawal of Pakistani troops from Azad Kashmir followed by the 'thinning' of Indian troops as pre-conditions for a plebiscite. In the event, since Pakistani troops remained in place, the other steps could not follow. clap.gif Similarly, instead of getting second- and third-hand accounts of what Indian politicians are saying, we now get their views directly. Many of them have come on the record to state their support of the embryonic peace process. This demolishes the image cultivated by the Pakistani establishment of a monolithic, warlike India bent on imposing its will on the region. Indeed, the open and ongoing debate on Indo-Pak relations is probably one factor propelling our rulers to the negotiating table. Without the distorting filter of PTV to keep reality obscured from us, enterprising reporters and analysts on the private channels keep us up-to-date in a way we are unaccustomed to. Unfortunately, the decision to force local cable operators to prevent us from watching Indian news channels goes counter to the refreshing spirit of openness and free discourse now in the air. What does the government fear from Indian TV channels? Initially, the Indian government had banned PTV from being shown by their cable operators, and this resulted in a tit-for-tat reaction from our side. Expecting maturity and sophistication from bureaucrats in New Delhi and Islamabad is a bit like expecting intelligence from the wrestlers who maul each other daily on some of the sports channels. Alas, private radio networks do not have the same freedom of expression their TV cousins enjoy, largely because they beam their programmes from Pakistan-based stations while the TV channels have sensibly based their operations offshore. This permits them to escape the stranglehold of the information ministry. Thus, the new FM radio channels stick to music and sanitised news and discussions, depriving their listeners of more refreshing fare. But it is only a matter of time before the control of the airwaves is permanently wrested away from the state. Indeed, market forces are working inexorably to undermine PTV and Radio Pakistan. With declining viewers, more and more advertisers are flocking to the private channels which have more flexible rates than their bureaucratic state-owned counterparts. Sooner or later, the red ink on their balance sheets will force the government to privatize these white elephants, ridding us of them forever. Just as the BBC's role in Britain is now being debated, it is time we discuss the future of state broadcasting in Pakistan. It is clear that the one-sided and clumsily censored news and discussion programmes aired by the government are not just self-serving, but also self-defeating. Over the years, the public has learned not to believe anything radio or television tells them. In the 1971 war, the only way we found out what was really happening on the battlefield was to tune in to the BBC. There are far too many other examples of the blatant lying the state channels indulged in over the years to warrant a repletion here. But all Pakistanis above their teens will recall how constantly we have been deliberately misled by our leaders over the airwaves. However, the emergence of private channels does not mean that suddenly all the truth is available to us: there is a tendency among many print and electronic journalists to support their country, right or wrong. But at least now many professional journalists are looking for the truth, prodding and poking around in Islamabad, trying to scoop their rivals. It is this competition that is our best guarantee that, in the long run, we will get a close approximation of the truth. In short, the government's monopoly on the news is drawing to an end. Let us toast its early demise.
Posted by: rhytha Jan 24 2004, 03:36 PM
Response to Leghari My only message to them is that they should see that that Hinduism is not a faith, it a culture. Among cultures, it is the only one that supports inequality and untouchability. In this day and age when the entire world believes in the equality of man and one God as the Creator of the universe and mankind, you believe in millions of gods. If you convert to Islam I would discuss our common faith with you. Until then it would be pointless - there is no meeting point between polytheism and monotheism.-USMAN KHALID, Lahore, via e-mail, January 15.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 24 2004, 03:45 PM The bestowing of strategic ally status on India by the United States is the culmination of a post-cold war process to strengthen and broaden relationship between the two countries which, in the words of US national security adviser Condoleeza Rice, "goes beyond security, proliferation or regional issues." The geo-strategic interests of Washington and New Delhi have brought them closer to each other and the newly-developed 'strategic partnership' will not only lead to major geo-political changes in the region but also enable India to fulfil its long-cherished dream of playing a greater role in Asia. Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee, hailing the relaxation of US controls on exports to his country - which comes after years of lobbying by New Delhi - expressed satisfaction that the vision of India-US strategic partnership, shared by him and the US president, was now a reality. According to him, the relationship is based increasingly on "common values and common interests." President Bush, who described the expanded cooperation as "an important milestone" in their bilateral relations, is hopeful that the collaboration in new areas will "deepen the ties of commerce and friendship between our two nations and will increase stability in Asia and beyond." In his meeting with Indian foreign minister Yashwant Sinha on January 20, President Bush discussed the next steps in their strategic relationship. The United States has had a testy relationship with India for almost half a century. Viewed against this background, the latest turn-around in their relations is remarkable. The reasons are not far to seek. China is no doubt an important factor in growing relations between Washington and New Delhi as the United States wants to build up India to counter-balance the growing power of China. Another important reason - far more urgent at the moment - is to muster Indian support to fight Islamic extremism and terror in the region. According to reports appearing in US media, policy makers in Washington appear to be of the view that in the "most volatile" part of the world - the Islamic crescent from Turkey to Malaysia - only Israel and India can be depended upon to act as a regional stabilizing force. New Delhi and Tel Aviv represent the two most potent non-Muslim militaries in the entire region extending from one end of the Islamic crescent to the other. This line of argument became even more convincing when an old and trustworthy ally like Turkey declined to help the United States at a crucial time in last year's Iraq war. After that the neo-conservatives in Washington began focussing attention on developing three-way ties between Israel, India and the United States. The green signal from Washington to Tel Aviv to go ahead with the sale of its advanced Phalcon air-borne reconnaissance system to India is indicative of the new trend. Some years back, the Clinton administration had disallowed the sale of Phalcon system to India. The relaxation of export controls will immensely increase technology cooperation between the two countries on space, missile defence and civilian nuclear programmes. Some Indian security analysts think that by enhancing technology cooperation, Washington has given de facto recognition to India's nuclear status. Under the agreement, the US will gradually relax export controls through a series of "reciprocal steps" in which India will tighten its export regime. Washington and New Delhi will also expand cooperation on nuclear regulatory and safety measures and missile defence. It may be recalled that India was one of the first countries to welcome the Bush administration's missile defence plans in 2001 - in marked contrast to China's reaction. The US decision to relax technology controls will also have a salutary effect on Indian business sectors - from space to information technology. Indian companies are particularly interested in importing from the United States products in the defence sector, biotechnology, space and software industries. At the moment, for example, in biotechnology Indian companies are prevented from importing from the United States sophisticated nanotechnology under existing restrictions. Therefore, the relaxation of technology exports, will give a huge boost to Indian industry as a whole. It is interesting to note that the announcement about the relaxation of technology controls and the 'strategic partnership' between the United States and India was announced after the Islamabad peace process had taken off. Though US officials have denied any link between the two, the connection is too obvious to be brushed off. The backlash in Pakistan would have been far more intemperate and extensive if Islamabad and New Delhi had not buried the hatchet and started a purposeful peace process. It also appears that the American offer to increase technology cooperation may have acted as one of the incentives for India to express its willingness to settle all disputes, including that of Kashmir, through a composite and meaningful dialogue with Pakistan. For a change, the Pakistan foreign office has not come out with a knee-jerk reaction to Washington's announcement of 'strategic partnership' with New Delhi. As a matter of fact, Islamabad has wisely chosen to keep quiet over this issue because any public expression of dissatisfaction or displeasure by us would not have made any ripples in Washington. As far as the Indians are concerned, any adverse reaction from us would have nipped the recently launched peace process. The time has come when Pakistan must face the ground realities as they exist and not as it would like them to be. Compared to India, we are a small country and cannot hope to be an effective rival of our big neighbour in international politics. It is therefore futile on our part to oppose India's efforts to achieve its potential and act as a big power in world politics - we simply cannot prevent it. Even the pretence to being the rival of India became meaningless after the country had been halved by the separation of East Pakistan. Pakistan's obsession with being treated as equal to India is actually a legacy of pre-partition days' rivalry between the Muslim League and the Congress. After the Cabinet Mission Plan, when the British withdrawal from India became a certainty, the Muslim League demanded 50 per cent share for 30 per cent Indian Muslims at the centre - equal representation for Muslim majority provinces with Hindu majority provinces at the centre, which of course was not acceptable to the Congress.The actual Muslim population content of Undivided India was about 24-25% AND NOT 30% as the lying Lotastaani states Instead of adopting a negative attitude towards India's progress, we should focus on making Pakistan a progressive, democratic, peaceful, stable and prosperous country. If rivalry with India has become a part of our psyche and we cannot live without it, then let us have a healthy rivalry - competition with our neighbour in the fields of individual freedoms, human rights, independent judiciary, free and fair elections, peaceful transfer of power, treatment of minorities, economic prosperity, the care of the elderly and poor, social reforms, literacy rate, the quality of education and, of course, sports. Let us hope this is not asking too much of most Pakistanis. Lotastaanis are slowly being fed with a measure of truth. Hopefully the Indian Media will seize upon this opportunity the real reason for the Partition of India was the paranoia of the Indian Muslim Leaders to have 50% of the Power with only 24 to 25% of the Population. I believe in fact the conditions put up by Jinnah was even worse i.e. 50% Muslim League and this 50% did not include the Muslims of the Indian Congress. Muslims of the Indian Congress would have to be accomodated in the balance 50%. Thus the Muslim share would have been 60% -with a population content of 24-25% Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 25 2004, 12:56 AM ISLAMAWORST, 24 Jan: The founder of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program has been barred from leaving Islamabad and has been questioned repeatedly amid an investigation into possible proliferation by the country's nuclear scientists, an acquaintance said today. The report about the restriction imposed on Abdul Qadeer Khan came as officials said investigators were checking the bank accounts of eight scientists and administrators detained so far in the probe. Khan has been questioned "many times" in recent weeks and is confined to Islamabad, said Zahid Malik, author of the book "Islamic Bomb" on Pakistan's nuclear program, who said he met Khan on Thursday. "He's cooperating (with the investigation) but he's satisfied that he's done nothing wrong," Malik told The Associated Press. A government official said on condition of anonymity that "security restrictions may have been increased" on Khan, but added that the scientist had "chosen to stay in Islamabad" while "debriefings" of laboratory employees take place. "Pakistan's investigations are vigorous. And they are looking into all dimensions, including financial aspects," Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan told AP. (AP/AFP) (Posted @ 23:45 PST) Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 25 2004, 07:30 AM
Posted by: Mudy Jan 25 2004, 07:36 AM By Dr. Ahmad Faruqui
Posted by: Viren Jan 25 2004, 10:19 AM
Now this is the guy who if I'm not mistaken holds the world record for the most Man of the Match awards. After years of leading Pakiland, here's Akram's send his own,curpg-2.cms.
“It is another matter though that I am not holding any coaching assignment with Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) and should be allowed to work as I feel best,” the former captain said. “I wasn’t even offered a cup of tea by them when I retired but then that’s a different story,” he added.
I hope this statement is not lost in all the babble that goes on about Pukis. Speaks volumes about the ingrates. Condomland motto: Do unto our own citizens what the rest of the world does to the country : i.e., use and discard. The history of this ungrateful nation that has discarded it's own after the job was done, some that I remember: - millions of muslims from Bangladesh raped and killed after helping the lottastan crave India into two - thousands of Talibanis who were once Pakis 'strategic depth' whose fate was sealed on a phone call from DC - thousands of soldiers left to die in enemy land in every war and in most cases even bodies not accepted back to save face - Zulfi Bhutton - strung like a mangy dog by the same 98K military mens whose release he secured - Sharif - shafted to exile by the same guy whose neck he saved - A Q Khan - theif who stuck his neck out now has his own neck on the line, add Gen. Aslam Beg to the list The list can be expanded ofcourse... Hey Paklurks, Pakistan Pain-da-bad pakee.gif
Posted by: Krishna Jan 25 2004, 11:49 AM
“It is another matter though that I am not holding any coaching assignment with Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) and should be allowed to work as I feel best,” the former captain said. “I wasn’t even offered a cup of tea by them when I retired but then that’s a different story,” he added.
No wonder he is always around to give Nehra & Pathan tips! laugh.gif tongue.gif I say, give him Indian citizenship - just buy him off, and see the effect it has on one of the most endangered species in the world, paki H&D!! tongue.gif I can't believe these mofos who can't even show a little respect for the best left hand seamer in the world, but has the guts to whine about Kashmiri people's wishes! pakee.gif liar.gif pakee.gif
Posted by: vishal Jan 25 2004, 03:07 PM
QUOTE (G.Subramaniam @ Jan 22 2004, 08:31 AM)
The real threat from Pakistan is islamic demographic invasion which the #$%^ $%^&*%^& is abetting by loosening travel restrictions GS, I understand your POV, and appreciate it, but I must request you to refrain from using abusing language for our PM, please!
Dear Subbu ji, majority of demographic problem can be solved if there is peace,economic development and BOLLYWOOD(for making them pro-indian or pro-sub-continent cultured). Now,there will be some minor culrpits there which can be dealt with strict law and order and POWERFULL Intelligence NETWORK around india. see...don't take pain...its easy... biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 25 2004, 03:22 PM
QUOTE (vishal @ Jan 25 2004, 03:07 PM)
Dear Subbu ji, majority of demographic problem can be solved if there is peace,economic development and BOLLYWOOD(for making them pro-indian or pro-sub-continent cultured). Now,there will be some minor culrpits there which can be dealt with strict law and order and POWERFULL Intelligence NETWORK around india. see...don't take pain...its easy... biggrin.gif
Vishal : Very Humane. Very Hindu and So Very Hypocritical. Amend the following as necessary and sing : You can take Lotastaan out of Terrorism But You can’t take Terrorism out of Lotastaan To the tune of : You can take Salem out of the Country but… Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 25 2004, 04:09 PM ISLAMAWORST: Who is largest employer in Pakistan? Of course, the government. Between the federal and provincial governments, they perhaps employ the largest number of people in this country. The next top employer is perhaps the armed forces, followed immediately by the Railways, Wapda and the Steel Mills. But somewhere between the armed forces and the three that follow, there is another entity which perhaps can stake its claim to be a relatively large employer. And that perhaps is the country's biggest private sector conglomerate – the charitable foundations and other such organizations belonging to the armed forces. In a way this conglomerate has functioned as a public enterprise but perhaps without its negative characteristics. According to one calculation about a couple of years back, this had contributed an estimated 3.5 per cent to the country's GDP annually. This contribution must have gone up to five per cent by now. Any entrepreneurial activity which notionally contributes five per cent to the GDP cannot but be one of the largest employers of the country, though we have no way of knowing how many hands this conglomerate employs. We did ask ISPR for details but had not received any response till this report went to press. We have the Fauji Foundation, the Army Welfare Trust, the Shaheen Foundation, and the Bahria Foundation. Between them they produce almost everything which a Pakistani producer or a service provider can produce. The Fauji Foundation has many enterprises under its fold including textile, sugar, cement and cereal-making units. The Army Welfare Foundation runs the Askari Stud Farms, Askari Fish Farms, Army Welfare Shoe Project, Commercial Plazas, Askari Guards, Askari Welfare Rice Mill, Askari Welfare Pharmaceutical Project, Magnetites Refineries Limited, Army Welfare Woollen Mill, Army Welfare Hosiery Unite, Askari Welfare Saving Scheme, Askari Associated Limited, Askari Information Service, Askari Power Limited and Askari Commercial Enterprises. They are also into land development and construction. The Shaheen Foundation manages Shaheen Air International, Air Cargo, Airport Services, Shaheen Aerotraders, Insurance, Shaheen Complex, Shaheen FM-100, Systems, Shaheen Knitwear and Air University. The Bahria Foundations runs Falah Trading Agency, Bahria Construction, Bahria Travel and Recruiting Agency, Paints, Deep Sea Fishing, Bahria Complexes, Town and Housing Schemes, Bahria Dredging, Bahria Ship Breaking, Bahria Diving and Salvage International, Bahria University, Shipping, Coastal Services, Security & System Services, Catering and Decoration Services, Bahria Farming, Bahria Holding, Bahria Harbour Services and Bahria Bakery. The military owns the best farmland in the country. It also runs the National Logistic Cell, the largest transport service. This charitable but in fact highly profitable private sector conglomerate also runs a number of educational institutions, from top market schools to highly coveted universities and colleges and also, again, top market hospitals and specialized clinics. The one highly persuasive argument for their very existence is the fact that people in the armed forces generally retire at a very early age - mid-30s to mid-40s - and in order to re-absorb them in economic activity and also to provide them with a decent means of living, it was found essential that the armed forces themselves launch programmes to generate jobs for the ever increasing number of their retirees. Defence societies in most of the cities of the country and their clubs also comprises a good source of employment generation. In the Title it should be “Armed Forces” instead of Army. pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 25 2004, 04:37 PM
Long Article but a good read – so posting in full : One should perhaps be 'shocked' to read in Professor A.H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim's report on the State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan (pub.2003 that the intended perversion of Pakistan's education system and national curricula came about as early as November 1947, even before the death of the country's founder (whose firm belief it was that 'religion or caste or creed has nothing to do with the business of the state'). However, since we are all now immune to shock (other than the venerable leadership of this country) we accept as quite natural to learn that the practice of the distortion and manipulation of education (as is the case with the practice of corruption) started for us from day one. In those early days, the government of Pakistan rounded up whatever educationists could be found, organized a conference, and asked them to establish guidelines for the nation's future education policies. The so-called educationists produced by Pakistan's birth pangs recommended the 'adoption of Islamic ideology as the basis of education.' This, again, could be somewhat amazing information, considering that the Objectives Resolution was not imposed on the nation until March 1949. However, and despite this prescribed policy of the linkage of history and other subjects with an ideology, the rot was initially kept at bay and the textbooks in our schools during the 1950s and 1960s were remarkably balanced. Ancient Hindu history and culture was not ignored as if it had never existed. Our children were taught that their history started off with the ancient South Asian civilizations of Moenjodaro, Harappa and Taxila. The early Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms were dealt with factually, as was the advent of Islam to the subcontinent - so factually that not only were the ancient civilizations were praised for their great and good achievements. Facts continued all the way down in the curricula right up to and after partition. Mahatma Gandhi, who now either never existed, or if he did, was a devil, was given due acknowledgment and appreciation for the part he played in the ending of the British raj. A healthy balance was well and strictly maintained. Curriculawise all was kept under control until, oddly enough, the arrival as head of state of Rangila Raja Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan. One can only presume that he had matters other than education, which to him were of far more import and interest - and besides, education was hardly his forte. In those confused days, the educational policy, in contrast to the presidential policy, veered strongly towards the ideological. Under Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, and with the loss of half the country behind him, things worsened rapidly on the education front. Over-emphasis was placed on the two nation theory and the nation's roots were sought not in the subcontinent from which they sprung, but from Islamic lands to the west and north. Towards the self-inflicted end of Bhutto's disastrous reign, when he sought the approval of the mullah fraternity to prop up his regime, as a mullah-toadying tactic he even had the curricula and textbooks revised so as to more reflect the mullah attitudes to life. It took Ziaul Haq to complete the transformation of the education system and the national curricula. Textbooks were rewritten to fit in with Zia's religious, social and political concepts. It was during this period that hatred of India, Indians and Hindus, and of all other things not Islamic, was firmly instilled into the minds of the young. History was rewritten. For the youth of Pakistan it started with Mohammad bin Qasim who was declared to be the first citizen of Pakistan. The sword, battle, and killing for one's faith were glorified, all in the interest of the military and the mullah. Brainwashing and indoctrination were the order of the day. Education is the basis of nation-building. This nation has been built and raised over the past three decades on the hatred of the 'traditional enemy', India, and the infidel wherever he may be, the incitement of militancy and violence, and the exaltation of a state of war. This policy has been continued during the four years of the rule of President General Pervez Musharraf, who time and time again has made clear his wish and intent to transform Pakistan into a moderate, tolerant and forward-looking state, following the wishes and designs of its creator. Common sense should tell him that if the young are being taught what they are now still taught, there can be no change of the mindset. Musharraf seems singularly uninterested in education, as does his government. And his men and women in charge of education have done nothing - nothing at all - to improve matters. They are good at issuing statements, at attending seminars, and at promising betterment - they say the intention is there, they claim commitment. But from what we see on the ground they are unable, or unwilling, to implement. They have not tackled the national curricula, they have been helpless when it comes to doing something about cleaning up the madressahs and removing from their curricula the element of militant indoctrination. As things stand, increasing the literacy rate by imposing on the young the teachings contained in the present textbooks will, in fact, only make things worse as it will raise the level of intolerance, bigotry, ignorance, hatred and propel more of our youngsters into the jihad mindset. The education minister last week, at one of the tri-weekly seminars, admitted that 50 million citizens of Pakistan aged over 10 years are illiterate. Of our 160 millions, how many millions are under 10 years of age - another 50 million perhaps? She would do well to keep this 100- million in a state of illiteracy until she drastically modifies the overturns the national and curricula or is replaced by someone qualified and competent to do so. We do not need any more reports on what should be done. We know what needs to be done. Apart from the fact that traditionally in this country reports are not to be acted upon but merely added to the shelved collection of such publications (for example, take all the reports produced on the status of women, including the latest offering of former high court judge, Majida Rizvi). If the chairman of the Sindh Development Foundation is to be believed, were a calculation to be made of all the studies/reports, etc, that have been produced on the subject of poverty alleviation, it would amount to over Rs.1,000 million poured down the national drain (letter, Jan 23). What irony! One vital aspect of the need for the complete revamping of education in Pakistan is the present rapprochement under way with India, the expressed desire of both countries being that peace and tranquillity and understanding should prevail. Now, if this is to be, then all our textbooks (and perhaps many of those in India as well) should be swiftly trashed so that we can both make an immediate start at raising a generation of literates who are not taught to loathe each other, who are not exhorted to kill each other, who are not instructed in the art of warfare, the economics of warfare, the geographical factors of warfare, the principles and factors involved in waging war, and in the 'defence of Pakistan'. We have a military academy to impart this type of instruction. An editorial in the national press last week has dealt with the necessity of "the purging of lethal textbooks" and the reintroduction of "truth in a region where war would have been impossible without lying to the people." Nothing will happen tomorrow, to wash away in Pakistan and in India the lust to fight and kill each other over a 56-year old territorial disagreement; it will not happen the day after tomorrow, nor even in the lifetime of many of us. But, if it is to happen sometime in the not too distant future, the only way is to now, right now, start working on a generation that is taught, and convinced, that peace brings far more benefits, far less torment and misery, than war. Can Musharraf comprehend this? And if he can, is he up to the task? Ardeshir Sahebji’s reference to the “Territorial Disagreement” has been attributed to Lotastaani refusal to Irfan Husain’s following Article : Relevant Quote : So far, Pakistanis have been brainwashed into believing that it was India who did not permit a plebiscite in Kashmir. But in actual fact, the resolutions clearly called for the withdrawal of Pakistani troops from Azad Kashmir followed by the 'thinning' of Indian troops as pre-conditions for a plebiscite. In the event, since Pakistani troops remained in place, the other steps could not follow. I hope Ardeshir Sahebji gets it right the next time. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 26 2004, 05:10 AM - NOT YET, BUT, GIVEN TIME - WHO KNOWS? WASHINGTON: President Pervez Musharraf has dismissed speculation that his military or police were in any way involved in the two recent assassination attempts on him, but said “a very low-level person in uniform was possibly involved but nobody at the officer level”. In a wide-ranging interview accorded to Lalley Weymouth of the Washington Post at Davos, President Musharraf said those who made the two attempts on his life were “local extremists” and what needed to be determined was who “passed the orders”. He said indications were that Al Qaeda was involved. President Musharraf rejected the suggestion that Pakistan was in any way involved in the illegal export of nuclear technology, but conceded “some individuals in Pakistan and also some Europeans have been charged”. He confirmed that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) had given the names of these individuals. He said there was an “underworld” of people who had been “manufacturing” nuclear materials etc and “most of them come from Europe”. He said the nuclear custodial links in Pakistan were strong and “there is no possibility of leakage”. Asked about the talks with India, President Musharraf said confidence building measures were continuing and the two foreign offices were in touch with one another. He clarified that he had never insisted on Kashmir being resolved first before other issues could be taken up, saying “we should move simultaneously on all issues”. He said Pakistan was a party to the dispute and for the first time in a joint statement India had recognised Kashmir as a dispute to be resolved. He refused to get involved in a discussion of “cross-border terrorism” saying, “let’s close this chapter”. He also stressed the need for the two countries to “go beyond stated positions and show flexibility”. When asked about the leaders of the two mainstream parties in Pakistan, President Musharraf replied that Benazir Bhutto had left the country of her own accord and Nawaz Sharif had gone “through an agreement with Saudi Arabia... he went laughing and smiling”. He also answered several questions about Afghanistan and pointed out that the Pashtun majority must be reflected in the government in office at Kabul. He called the government of President Hamid Karzai “the hope for the future”. He also called for maintaining the territorial integrity of Iraq and transfer of power to an Iraqi government “as soon as possible”. Asked if he would run for President in 2007, he replied that he was not a politician and “there’s a lot of time” between now and then. He also said Osama bin Laden “might be in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan”. He added that Al Qaeda was “on the run” and its cadres were not in contact with each other anymore. Cheers
Posted by: Reggie Jan 26 2004, 02:03 PM
Trip down the memory lane. Leftist Guardian bias against India during the Kargil war is thoroughly exposed.,12559,821008,00.html
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 26 2004, 07:17 PM
INDIA MUST STOP ALL CONTACTS WITH LOTASTAAN TO PREENT BIRD FLU COMING TO INDIA BANGKOK, Thailand (CNN) -- The bird flu outbreak -- which is rapidly spreading across Asia and has killed at least seven people, including a child in Thailand – has now hit Pakistan, officials said. Avian influenza was detected in poultry farms in the Pakistani port city of Karachi, government officials said, but there was no evidence the disease had infected humans there. The announcement Monday means bird flu has now reached eight nations, further stoking fears among health experts the virus may be uncontrollable and could mutate into a deadlier form transmissible from humans to humans. It is also leading to questions of how the virus is spreading, with the migration and interaction of birds as well as exports of poultry and poultry products being investigated. As well as Pakistan, bird flu has hit Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia and Indonesia. A different strain of bird flu has been detected in Taiwan, while Laos has reported suspected cases in poultry. Humans have been infected only in Vietnam and Thailand so far, although officials in Cambodia said Monday that two boys who played with chickens are suspected of having come down with the virus. Thai officials on Monday confirmed the country's first human death from bird flu -- a 6-year-old boy -- bringing to at least seven the number of people killed by the disease. Six deaths have been confirmed in Vietnam -- the nation hardest hit by bird flu -- and all but one were children. Apart from another boy infected with bird flu, Thai officials say there have been at least 10 more suspected human cases. Five of those people have died. Thai officials only confirmed an outbreak of bird flu -- a strain of H5N1 avian influenza -- on Friday after days of denying accusations from farmers and opposition legislators that the nation had been hit by the dangerous disease. Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra conceded on the weekend his government suspected for "a couple of weeks" the country was facing an outbreak of bird flu but decided not to reveal the outbreak until Friday in an attempt to avoid mass panic. Thaksin's admission comes as his government faces increasing criticism over its handling of the outbreak amid claims of a cover-up. Observers say the outbreak is also fast becoming the biggest crisis Thaksin has faced as leader, tarnishing his image of invulnerability and potentially creating a wave of public backlash. With farmers and the public too frightened to carry out a cull in the central province of Suphanburi, Thai military troops and prisoners were dispatched for the slaughter, placing the birds in plastic bags for burial in deep pits. (Full story) By Sunday, 9 million chickens had been slaughtered, and already the outbreak has been devastating for Thailand's massive poultry industry. The country is among the world's top five chicken exporters. On Sunday, China became the latest nation to ban imports of Thai chicken products. The EU and Japan slapped similar bans on Thailand last week. Indonesia hit Also Sunday, Indonesia confirmed it had been hit by the disease. Officials there had earlier denied claims of the disease's presence there. As scientist work to understand the virus, The World Health Organization says a vaccine for the disease is at least six months away because the disease keeps mutating. So far it is believed all the human victims caught the disease from fowl, and there has been no evidence of human-to-human transmission. If the disease mutated enough to allow such transmission, health experts warn the virus could become a bigger health crisis than SARS. That virus killed nearly 800 people worldwide last year. The WHO is also highly concerned because the bird flu virus appears resistant to cheaper anti-viral drugs used to treat regular influenza. "This is a disease that's appearing in the developing world. So what you want is affordable drugs," WHO spokesman Dick Thompson said. "Should this move from human to human -- and it hasn't yet, I want to stress that -- then it's going to be a real challenge." Added WHO spokesman Bob Dietz: "The more widespread it becomes, the greater the possibility that the (bird flu) virus could become altered and become more of a threat to the human population." Added Later : Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 27 2004, 04:47 AM
Two articles from The Financial Times : If members find difficulty in accessing these articles then will post them in full. Cheers
Posted by: rajivg Jan 27 2004, 10:04 AM
Birdflu in TSP? Hmm...Its probably comes from the excessive butt-fvcking of chicoms chickens.
Posted by: Viren Jan 27 2004, 10:07 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 26 2004, 09:47 AM)
For a minute I thought that the entire Paki Army was gone. Guess it's a false alarm biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 27 2004, 03:00 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 27 2004, 10:07 AM)
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 26 2004, 09:47 AM)
For a minute I thought that the entire Paki Army was gone. Guess it's a false alarm biggrin.gif
Viren : Please be informed that I have been instructed by the Lotastaani Chicken Association to sue you for defamation of character at Lotastaani Chickens being compared to the Terrorist – Running Away from the Battlefield – Lotastaani Army. You may ward off this Court Action by agreeing to Arbitration in London with English Law to Apply. I trust you will be grateful to the Lotastaani Chicken Association for their willingness to go into Arbitration as it is much cheaper than normal Court Action. Please reply timely with either your nominated Solicitors in London or Arbitrator. In case of Arbitration the Lotastaani Chicken Association will appoint their own Arbitrator and then the Two Arbitrators so appointed will appoint a Third Arbitrator as Umpire. Await your constructive reply Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 27 2004, 07:12 PM
Peregrine: My attorney's letter that you can forward to legal representatives of the Lottastani Chickens.
Dear Viren, In response to Peregine's post - I urge to settle the matter in an expeditious manner. For one, the arbitrators appointed in UK could very well be ICC ex-cricketers who have a bias against India and/or Indians - trust your fellow postors at India-Forum have educated you on the matter in their cricket thread. Besides, my good friend at the bar (not the drinking kind) - Mr. Robert Horan (who prosecuted Amal Kansi in Virginia) advices me that "the Pakistanis will sell their own _______ for $20,000" (you can google this) - so check for $50 made payable to the Lottastani Chicken Association should settle the matter for good. Failing to dispose the matter with anything more than $52, you can always use those RAW friends of your who infest internet forums to provide "moral and diplomatic support" to the Lottastani Pork Association.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 27 2004, 11:47 PM
viren ... that was a great joke man .. tongue.gif ROTFL.gif you have talent man
Posted by: Viren Jan 28 2004, 02:26 AM
SSR: Stuff about Robert Horan is no joke... this guy (I think he's still around prosecuting that sniper Malvo) said:
Pakistani newspapers quoted Horan as saying in a June 23 ('97) television interview that people in the region where Kansi lived were backward and could hand over their mothers for a far less amount than a $2 million U.S. award set for his arrest. But he then issued any
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 28 2004, 02:35 AM
I ment the joke about " Lotistani chicken getting killed" and "Paki army getting killed" ...I laughed aloud all my office mates came to my cubicle to see what it was and they had a laugh too .
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 28 2004, 04:14 AM WMD PROLIFERATION : THE EUROPEAN-US TRAIL Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 28 2004, 04:25 AM
From Madam Jalebi, If European can do, we can also. We are third world country we need money etc. India can sell 10mega watt power plant to Iran, we can also sell nukes to Iran. We brown and white European are equal equal nuclear thief. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 28 2004, 04:52 AM
Bin pardha Mullinis in action smile.gif user posted image
Posted by: Mudy Jan 28 2004, 05:14 AM by Dr. Subhash Kapila Introductory Background: The Islamabad Accord for January 2004 to begin a peace dialogue between India and Pakistan has been hyped by the Indian media as ‘historic’. It seems that in the bleak landscape of India-Pakistan relations, any little movement becomes historic. Presumably, it also reflects the yearning of the peoples of the two countries for genuine peace. In Pakistan, there is a growing peace constituency prompted by a number of factors. These need to be taken into account as it has a bearing on the analysis of the topic of this paper. Pakistan’s Growing Peace Constituency- The Stimulants: The growing “Peace Constituency” in Pakistan is not as a result of any motivation by Pakistani leaders both military and civil. The “Peace Constituency” in Pakistan is growing due to the following stimulating factors: * The Pakistani masses now recognise the futility of the policies of successive Pakistani Governments to wrest Kashmir, militarily from India. * Pakistan’s exorbitant military expenditures, not limited to defence but military adventurism arising from the above has led Pakistan to being a “failed state” today. * India’s economic advancement and growth is a shining example for Pakistani masses as to how “democracy and “liberal social policies” on the other side of the border has brought about economic success. * India’s knowledge power and its export provides an example to Pakistani masses as to how the emphasis on higher education and technical education can be brought about by democracies. In brief, India’s comparative progress in all fields has been brought about by democratic form of governance as opposed to long spells of military government in Pakistan. If that be so, it is pertinent now to question whether India in terms of “peace accord” and opening a peace dialogue could have awaited for a return of democracy in Pakistan and also with which Pakistani political leader, it would have been more advantageous to deal with. All these options are analysed below. Option 1-Dealing with a Military Ruler in Pakistan: It is not for India to decide who rules Pakistan, but it is legitimate for India to decide that when it deals with Pakistan on far reaching and far-seeking solutions for peace in South Asia, it should assess whether who rules Pakistan is in power as a result of a constitutional process and enjoys political legitimacy. General Musharraf usurped power from a lawfully elected Government in Pakistan. General Musharraf was only a “mask” used by the Pakistan Army to checkmate former PM Nawaz Sharif who with his unprecedented political mandate had attempted to “tame” the Pakistan Army and bring it under civilian control. Therefore, neither General Musharraf nor the Pakistan Army, are the legitimate rulers of Pakistan. So why has India chosen to deal with General Musharraf in initiating a peace dialogue with him? There are many in India who argue that peace in South Asia, meaning an India-Pakistan “peace accord” can only be brought about by a military ruler in a Pakistan, as he can carry the might of the Pakistan Army to enforce it. Such an argument is fallacious and also has elements of double standards: * India in the past had been making noises against SLORC rule in Myanmar and for a return to democracy. Why should the same yardstick not be applied to Pakistan also at this juncture. * Any Pakistan Army imposed “peace accord” on the Pakistani masses has inherent in it the seeds of self-destruction. Military rule of Pakistan cannot be a permanent feature. * Pakistani masses are already yearning for peace so why should India have a stake in a Pakistan Army imposed “peace accord”. If any ‘peace accord’ has to be imposed in Pakistan, it has to be on the Pakistan Army, to desist from military rule and oppression against its own people. General Musharraf is a doubtful entity who can neither be expected nor trusted to deliver on any peace accord. His record of the last five years is ample proof and does not require repetition here. Prof Stephen Cohen, the noted South Asia expert, now at Brookings Institution, and who has never been hard on the Pakistan Army has the following to say in a recent article: * “His (Vajpayee) dialogue partner General Musharraf is harder to figure out. He lacks strategic vision, is a bad listener and believes that ruling Pakistan is like an Army garrison give the orders and they will be obeyed”. * “Even his strategy of using militants to force Indians to the negotiating tables has failed. Now that the militants are more interested in his death than victory in Kashmir, he is having the second thoughts.” If General Musharraf gets liquidated either by a palace coup or the Islamic Jehadis, India will have a dialogue with whom? Wait for the next Pakistani military ruler to emerge? Options 2- Dealing With Former PM Benazir Bhutto: Like the Americans, the Indian Establishment too is enamoured with Benazir Bhutto who is perceived as Westernised and therefore liberal and easy to talk to. Indians, so enamoured fail to recollect the following background of Benazir Bhutto: * Pakistan’s two wars of 1965 and 1971 with India were primarily instigated by her father Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Pakistan’s then military rulers FM Ayub Khan and General Yahya Khan were both hassled and goaded to war by Bhutto. * Benazir Bhutto has never respected the Simla Accord signed by her father and where she too was present as an interested observer.(dynastic politics) * Benazi as Prime Minister was the prime initiator of the Pakistani sponsored proxy war and terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir in 1989. In fact she was the first Pakistani politician to create Kashmir as an election issue of unprecedented proportions in Pakistan. * Benazir Bhutto was the creator of the Taliban and unleashing its brutality on Afghanistan. * During Benazir Bhutto’s regime, Pakistan officials were engaged at the highest levels in parleys with International Islamic Jehadi organisations. A Pakistani political leader with such credentials hardly inspires trust to be engaged in an India-Pak peace accord. It is curious how she was invited and lionised in New Delhi recently at a seminar organised by a leading media house. Option 3-Dealing With former PM Nawaz Sharif: Like Benazir Bhutto, former PM Nawaz Sharif is in political exile today imposed by General Musharraf. Whatever be the limitations of Nawaz Sharif, he can be credited with the following: * He was the only Pakistani political leader who fought an election in Pakistan on the election plank of better India-Pakistan relations and peace. * Nawaz Sharif won the elections on this plank by a two-thirds majority (indicating the yearning for peace in the Pakistani populace). * Nawaz Sharif facilitated in Pakistan the emergence of the Lahore Accord with Vajpayee against the inclination of the Pak Army and its COAS, Gen Musharraf. Should democracy come back to Pakistan and should Nawaz Sharif re-emerge as PM, he or somebody like him would be the best choice for India to deal with. Option 4- Dealing With an Islamic Conservative Govt: If the last elections in Pakistan are an indicator where MMA has formed government in Baluchistan and NWFP and become the ‘king maker’ in Islamabad, emergence of a National Government of MMA cannot be ruled out in the future. If such a Govt emerges in Pakistan, this author feels that there is nothing to become hysterical about. If it constitutionally emerges, India cannot have any objections to deal with them. Further any Islamist Govt. in Pakistan cannot be worse in terms of proxy war and terrorism against India than the Pakistan Army and General Musharraf. At least the Islamists would be predictable. If India has withstood a decade plus of Benazir Bhutto initiated and Pakistan Army intensified war of terror against India, it would be fair to say that India can also withstand a war of terror of an Islamist Govt. should they come to power and should they so inclined. Concluding Observations: Peace in South Asia cannot be brought about by India’s good intentions only. Nor can it be brought about by the Pakistan Army or its military rulers. Genuine peace can be helped to emerge only by the emergence of “democracy” and “liberation” in Pakistan and their maturing under civilian rule. The United States has a major role to play here.
Posted by: rhytha Jan 28 2004, 05:38 PM
Duh! huh.gif I mean WTF tv_feliz.gif tongue.gif pakee.gif WEF sees Pakistan as an Emerging Economic Epicentre ISLAMABAD: The World Economic Forum, (WEF) that ended its five-day meeting in Davos, turned out be an event that gave Pakistan a unique opportunity to present itself as a growing economy, fast emerging at the crossroad of Gulf, South and Central Asia. President General Pervez Musharraf, who represented Pakistan at the WEF’s annual meeting, was the most sought-after person by the world business leaders who were keen to know about the economic progress in Pakistan, sensing country’s strategic location that accommodates half of the world population. Over the course of the five-day meeting, more than 2100 participants from 94 countries, including more than 30 heads of state or government, 75 Cabinet ministers, 28 religious leaders, 18 union leaders and more than 50 heads of NGOs converged at the Davos skiing resort to discuss sustained economic growth throughout the world. The world’s key business tycoons like Bill Gates of Microsoft, Peter Brabeck-Lemathe, Chief Executive of Nestle, George Soros, of Soros Foundation, Thomas J. Bata, Chairman Bata Shoes Foundation, Robert Luts, Vice Chairman General Motors, USA, Raymond V. Gilmartin, President and Chief Executive of Merek, Daniel Versala of pharmaceutical giant Novaratis and Chief Executive of Nissan, had arranged prior meetings with the President. The President was also invited to working breakfast, luncheons and dinners by these leaders in a bid to have maximum opportunity to know Pakistan. President Musharraf effectively projected Pakistan’s potentials as a regional hub of the economic activities and received tremendous response from the these leaders who were very keen to explore investment and business opportunities in the country. Software tycoon Bill Gates discussed with the President the prospects of increasing Microsoft involvement in Pakistan. He also proposed some suggestions vis-a-vis E-goverance in Pakistan to be examined by the government. He also promised to help the Pakistan government in its efforts to produce world-class IT professionals. Novaratis’ Chairman Daniel Versala during his meeting with the President discussed further expansion of his company’s business with focus on using Pakistan as a conduit for exports to South, Gulf and Central Asian regions. The company already has a strong presence in Pakistan. Chairman Merck, running a factory in Pakistan, showed keen interest in increasing its investment in Pakistan for enhancing production mainly for export purposes. Nestle’s CEO, with already a large investment in Pakistan, also discussed expanding its business in Pakistan. Prince Karim Agha Khan also met the President and exchanged views on the efforts in the social sector and the investment opportunities in the country. “The WEF provided a unique opportunity to Pakistan to show its economic potential to key business leaders, and their interest is an indication of their trust in the country’s growing economy which will prove a good omen, specially in the sphere of foreign investment,” said Finance Minister Shukat Aziz, who along with Commerce Minister Humayun Akhtar and Governor State Bank Dr. Ishrat Hussain accompanied the President. The two economic ministers also held meetings with business leaders on the sidelines of the Forum to project Pakistan’s budding economy. Shuakat Aziz said President Musharraf’s meeting with these leaders also greatly helped to remove some misperceptions about the country with regard to law and order and the security of investment. The President also held meetings with UN Secretary General Kofi Anan, US Vice President Dick Cheney, besides formal and informal interaction with other political and religious leaders, and explained Pakistan’s view point on the issues of extremism, world political disputes and nuclear non-proliferation and new developments in Pakistan-India relations.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 28 2004, 09:01 PM
Let us hope that this deployment will march all the way to islamabad and capture the biggest terrorists in the world.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 28 2004, 10:00 PM KARACHI, Pakistan, Jan. 27 -- Pakistani investigators have concluded that two senior nuclear scientists used a network of middlemen operating a black market to supply nuclear weapons technology to Iran and Libya, according to three senior Pakistani intelligence officials. If there is any one we can trust to give us impartial finidngs, then it surely is a Pakistani Investigator Abdul Qadeer Khan, considered the father of Pakistan's nuclear bomb, He might be the father of the paki bomb but he also seems to have many b@$tard children in many othe countries laugh.gif and Mohammed Farooq provided the help -- including blueprints for equipment used to enrich uranium -- both directly and through a black market based in the Persian Gulf emirate of Dubai, the officials said. What is the deal behind musy pursuing A.Q.Khan guys ? Why is mushy playing this dangerous game? I am sure he knows that he will make a lot of enemies within his own system Xerox Khan is made the scape goat. Why is he still doing it ? Any guesses ? blink.gif The middlemen, from South Africa, Germany, the Netherlands, Sri Lanka and elsewhere, allegedly also offered the Pakistani scientists' services to Syria and Iraq. But the deals apparently never materialized, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In return for the scientists' assistance in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Iran channeled millions of dollars to foreign bank accounts allegedly controlled by the two men, one of whom, Khan, amassed large real estate holdings in Pakistan and Dubai, the officials said. Khan and Farooq were longtime colleagues at the country's premier nuclear weapons laboratory, A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, which is named for Khan. The officials said the findings arose from an investigation being conducted by the Pakistani military's Inter-Services Intelligence agency. ROTFL.gif The probe, which officials say is nearing completion, was begun after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) presented Pakistani officials late last year with evidence that Pakistani technology appeared to have played a role in the clandestine nuclear weapons programs of both Iran and Libya. As a result of the probe, Khan has been confined to his house in an elite neighborhood in Islamabad, What is an elite neighborhood sad.gif one of the officials said, and Farooq has been in detention since late November. Telephone calls to Khan's home seeking comment went unanswered on Tuesday. In addition to concerns raised by the IAEA, U.S. intelligence officials have said they believe North Korea obtained uranium-enrichment technology and equipment from Pakistan in exchange for missiles. Pakistan is one of a handful of countries that remain outside the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and technically is not bound by many of the international restrictions on the export of nuclear technology. Pakistan first tested a nuclear device on its own soil in 1998, the culmination of decades of research by Khan and other scientists as part of a program largely overseen by the Pakistani military. A variety of high-ranking military officials "looked the other way as insiders volunteered information about all sorts of problems in the highest echelon of the KRL bureaucracy," said one of the three officials, referring to Khan Research Laboratories. There you go..... that just goes to show how the government had absolutely no knowledge of it what so was just the terrorist elements in the government Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president, acknowledged last week that some of Pakistan's nuclear scientists appeared to have sold their expertise abroad. Musharraf and other officials have said the scientists acted without authorization and have vowed to take action against those involved. That, however, could provoke a political backlash in Pakistan, where many people regard Khan and his colleagues as national heroes. "To show its commitment and international responsibility to nuclear nonproliferation, Pakistan has assured the IAEA of strong legal action against the culprits," said one of the three officials. Although government officials assert that the nuclear program is now under tight control, they acknowledge that it has suffered from lax security in the past, when Khan and other senior scientists were given vast resources and freedom from outside scrutiny that may have contributed to the leaking of nuclear secrets. When will this madness stop ..... We do not have terrorists in our country,We dont know about terrorists in our country, We give onlymoral support,The terrorists in our country are not under our control, We were terrorists but not any more We did not export nuclear centrifuges to North korea, We dont know about any exports, We did export but not any more -do Iran,Libiya,Terrorist Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (??? may be ???? ) - furious.gif "It was a no-questions-asked regime for the KRL," said a nuclear scientist who spent 30 years in the country's nuclear program. "Dr. Khan was never supposed to answer or explain his frequent foreign trips. He spent billions of dollars without any significant financial oversight." Khan was chairman of the laboratory until 2001, when he was dismissed by Musharraf, at least partly because of concerns about financial improprieties at the lab, officials said. One of the officials involved in the current investigation said that while the "money trail" provides some of the evidence against Khan and Farooq, the most damaging information was given by Iran and Libya to the IAEA, which then passed it along to Pakistani authorities. "The governments of Iran and Libya have exposed the racket," If all muslims are one nation how did their own brothers rat on them ??? laugh.gif , I am sure Libiya is singing like a canary now for Uncle to put the squeeze on Mushy's one of the officials said. "They made no attempt to hide their sources, as if they wanted to settle score with Pakistani scientists." A senior official close to the Pakistani president said that the information provided by the IAEA was so specific and incriminating that Musharraf decided to personally confront Khan in the last week of November. "For the first time ever, I saw tears in the eyes of the president, who thought that it was the worst-ever breach of the nation's trust," recalled the aide. I think mushy cried at the pain of squeezed thumbup.gif Musharraf is eager to pursue charges against the scientist, but some advisers are urging a milder punishment, such as dismissing Khan from his post as an adviser to the government on nuclear issues, the official added. can some one analyze why mushy is playing this dangerous game of being too hard on the father of the islamic bum Khan has subsequently been questioned by Lt. Gen. Ehsanul Haq, chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, and Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai, commander of the Strategic Planning and Development Cell, which was created several years ago to oversee nuclear security in Pakistan. Pakistani investigators have determined that in addition to selling technology through black-market intermediaries, Khan also provided direct help to Iranian nuclear scientists by giving them blueprints for high-speed centrifuges used to enrich uranium for nuclear bombs, and the names of clandestine suppliers for centrifuge parts, officials said. If the guy's name is xerox khan ...what else do you expect him to do ...he stole it from the dutch to begin with ...and he is doing what he does best ... make xerox copies and being a terrorist Farooq, an engineer with expertise in centrifuges, helped facilitate Khan's efforts during several trips to Iran, the officials said. Khan was well-compensated for his work in behalf of the Iranians, the officials said. He purchased houses for his children and spent considerable sums to organize seminars, distribute posters and publish books aimed at lauding his achievements in the country's nuclear program, officials said.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 28 2004, 10:33 PM
I do not know who turned my comments to blue ..and removing the G word ... I did not know I could not use it .....THANK YOU ! clap.gif thumbup.gif specool.gif
Posted by: rhytha Jan 28 2004, 11:15 PM
can some one analyze why mushy is playing this dangerous game of being too hard on the father of the islamic bum
All paki dictators by virtue of thier post, always think that they are there for the good of pakistan, they couped and became dictators for the good of pakistan, since caught with clear indication of nuclear profilaration, Gen.Mush thinks that accepting knowlegede or facilating nuke-prolif by him, army or pakistan(he sees all three as one) is bad for pakistan, so he took the xtreme step of squarly blaming xeroxe khan as the erring party and not him or the army or the goverment. You need to understand that Gen.Mush thinks that whatever he is doing he is doing that in the intrest of pakistan, while we think that he is doing this to save his skin he thinks the opp.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 28 2004, 11:34 PM
can some one analyze why mushy is playing this dangerous game of being too hard on the father of the islamic bum
Paki Army is occupying big piece of land called Pakistan. No. of factor contributes to this behavior. Hatred toward India is so high that this country has lost its perspective that they share world with other human being. Converts always tries to project that they are true believer. Paki have strong agenda to tell world that they represent or true front of Islam. They also have dream to change country into true Islamic State and to occupy India and convert into Islamic state. During colonial period India became very poor. After independence, everyone is trying everything to acquire wealth which was previously limited to small section of society. All this leads to acquire Nuke and personal gain. Now Mushy is left with few choice leave greater agenda of Islamic State and Pakistan as "Sultanate with nukes" or "Nationalism". His action shows he is ready to sacrifice goat "Nuke scientist" but not Islamic agenda. India should not let her guards down.
Posted by: Viren Jan 28 2004, 11:46 PM
B Raman in
The recent developments and the shifting stands of Musharraf only add to the misgivings in the minds of many about him. If he has been telling a lie by putting all the blame on individual scientists, it shows how he continues to be as unreliable as before befitting his reputation as “tricky Mush”. If he is telling the truth, it shows how ineffective is his control over the jihadi elements in the Pakistani Army and scientific establishment
Posted by: rhytha Jan 29 2004, 12:42 AM
What made India trust Musharraf Washington's quiet, persistent diplomacy and a clear assurance from Islamabad on ending terrorism eventually helped to change New Delhi's perception of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf as a troublemaker and the villain of Kargil and Agra. According to officials in the external affairs ministry and intelligence agencies, the government now believes it is worth giving the general one more chance. Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee even described Musharraf as Pakistan's biggest leader and a man capable of walking the path of dialogue and peace. Despite Vajpayee's insistence on continuing the peace process restarted by him in Srinagar in April last year, there were many sceptics in the Indian establishment. "[But] last-minute assurances from Pakistan, especially from General Musharraf, that they were ready to give in writing a commitment on ending terrorism was the clincher," an external affairs ministry official, who was closely involved with the prime minister's recent visit to Pakistan, told Intense but quiet diplomacy by the United States in the run-up to the summit of the South Asian Association for Regional Co-operation also helped turn the tide in favour of Vajpayee's historic visit to Islamabad and prepared the ground for the negotiations by National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra and others in Pakistan. The US, despite being busy with Iraq, kept in touch with both the Indian and Pakistani sides, the external affairs official, recalling 2003's Indo-US-Pak triangular engagements, said. US foreign policy is mostly conducted by National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State Colin Powell and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. While Rice and Mishra have a "rather good" rapport, according to the external affairs ministry official, Powell has been an "important influence" with Musharraf. The two attempts to kill Musharraf -- on December 14 and December 25 -- played a "critical role" in creating a sea change in the attitudes of both India and Pakistan, the official said. While sections of the Indian establishment doubted the authenticity of the first incident, the second one, in which 14 people were killed, convinced them that Musharraf was indeed in trouble. The attacks "helped him [Musharraf] see our side of the argument," a diplomat said. "We have for long been arguing that terrorism against us will one day destabilise Pakistan and that there are no compartments in the terror complex. What is dangerous for India is dangerous for the US and dangerous for a moderate Pakistan state also." "It is important that we engage General Musharraf," an intelligence officer added. "He is the best hope for moderating Pakistan and improving its economy at this point of time." After the Christmas attack on Musharraf, there were "several rounds of phone contacts" among India, America and Pakistan. "The US managed to convince Musharraf of the need to declare his stand against terrorism in no uncertain terms," the diplomat quoted above said. Simultaneously, Pakistan promised not to raise the Jammu and Kashmir issue at the SAARC summit. Vajpayee agreed to attend the summit once he was assured that there would be no repeat of the scenes at the previous one in Kathmandu in 2003. There, despite Musharraf's assurance that there would be no grandstanding, the general embarrassed India by dramatically walking across the dais to the prime minister and offering his 'hand of friendship.' Vajpayee retaliated to this stage show by accusing Pakistan of supporting terrorism. India also assured the US, which conveyed Musharraf's readiness to disown terrorism in all its forms, that it would seriously consider bilateral contacts. Meanwhile, Mishra was quietly in touch with Tariq Aziz, Musharraf's key adviser. "We had almost no knowledge of the interactions [between Mishra and Aziz]," the external affairs ministry official said, pointing out that most of the engagements with Pakistan are being conducted directly between the prime minister's office in New Delhi and the general's office in Islamabad. But before Mishra left for Pakistan, he called on Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani and appraised him of Pakistan's readiness to denounce terrorism. Once Mishra landed in Islamabad, he conducted a series of meetings with Tariq Aziz. On January 6, the day after Vajpayee met Musharraf, Mishra, Aziz and other close aides of the general sat down to work out a joint statement. It took several rounds of meetings between the two sides to finally produce the statement in which Musharraf promised that 'no territory under Pakistan's command will be used by terrorists against India.' Simultaneously, India agreed to resume the dialogue with Pakistan on all subjects, including Jammu and Kashmir, from February. Sources in New Delhi say the change in India's position is visible on two fronts. First, India believes that Musharraf is reliable and will sustain a dialogue. Second, even if terrorist groups outside the control of the Pakistani State try to create trouble, India will not blame Islamabad without confirmation. "We now have a tolerance level twice that of December 2001," the intelligence officer remarked in lighter vein, referring to the angry Indian response after the attack on Parliament. Both sides, the officer said, are conscious of the "alarming frequency" of crises ever since India and Pakistan went nuclear. Ever since the tit-for-tat tests in May 1998, India and Pakistan have fought a border war, mobilised their soldiers for ten long months, snapped transport links, and generally glowered at each other. Most of these tensions, the diplomat argued, 'originated in Pakistan's state support to terrorism'. But the intelligence officer said, "When we are accommodative towards each other, it is also an assurance to the rest of the world that the next crisis in the region will be avoided by the two countries, or at least will not happen soon." "Our understanding," the diplomat added, "is that Musharraf want to move away from Pakistan's stated policy of supporting armed militants in Kashmir. But it will take some time for him to show results on the ground and he may not succeed 100 per cent. Because there are groups such as the Jaish-e-Mohammad that are not in his full control." But India hopes to see evidence in the days to come of Pakistan dismantling the terrorist infrastructure such as camps and launching pads in occupied Kashmir. "Our willingness for the dialogue process is a stamp of the fact that we trust Musharraf's promises," the external affairs official said. "We are confident that he will take his promises to the logical end." The official said that ultimately it is a strong Pakistan that India would like to have as its neighbour. "We are engaging Musharraf at a very difficult time in his career," the diplomat added. "If we succeed, Musharraf will have much more than Kashmir to showcase, most importantly a growing business relationship with one of the world's fastest growing economies. In the long slow race together, if we are able to overcome mistrust, a lot of concerns regarding the region such as Afghanistan will also be defeated."
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 29 2004, 01:07 AM
From daily dung Pakistan agrees to open visa office in Mumbai (Updated at 2350 PST) ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has agreed to recommendation to open a visa office in Indian city Mumbai and called upon Indian movement to hand over Jinnah House in Mumbai to Pakistani High Commission in India. ROTFL.gif ..."Hand over???????" Some nerve these people have .... May be beg ..... "Bagwan ke nam pe Jinah House de de baba" Admins ...can we please commission two emoticons (1) Paki Begging emoticon (2) Throwing up emoticon Please please ... biggrin.gif Also read " Expatriate Pakistanis work for Better Media Coverage in the United States" at , it is funny as hell And what is the deal with their english ..Lots of spelling mistakes ... Tamil Nado , Jai Laltha pakee.gif
Posted by: rhytha Jan 29 2004, 01:21 AM
from link above BJP, Jai Lalita form alliance:lol: (Updated at 1900 PST) INDIA: India’s government party Bhartiya Janta and Jai Lalita party of Tamil Nado have formed alliance after five years’ disparity between them, according to a report. Both sides have also decided to jointly take part in the upcoming national polls in India. It was decided between Chief of BJP Wanikaya Naid and Jai Lalita in a meeting. Talking to journalists after the meeting both leaders told that process of distribution of constituencies and seats would be decided by the BJP’s state unit and AIAD. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 29 2004, 01:35 AM
SSRamachandran, Check who is journalist [The Rediff Special/Josy Joseph in New Delhi], He/she falls under p-sec, commie,anti BJP umbrella. What else traitor will say?
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 29 2004, 03:33 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 27 2004, 07:12 PM)
Peregrine: My attorney's letter that you can forward to legal representatives of the Lottastani Chickens.
Viren : This is to confirm having conveyed your message per your post of Jan 27 2004, 07:12 PM. I have now received the following from the Lotastaani Chicken Assosciation :
Please convey our sense of deep distress and umbrage at the reference of the accused to our Arbitrator being ICC ex-cricketer. Our Arbitrator will be from the panel of the Chartered Institute of Arbitration in London who will ensure that justice is done to us in the same manner that the German Importers had justice in their dispute with the Lotastaani Exporters in the matter of the so called Lotastaani Basmati Rice arriving in a German Sea Port mit mice schidt mixt. You are requested to advise the accused to kindly look into this matter from the perspective of Indian Gentlemen and not behave as our Lotastaani Armed Forces Members or our Feudals or Our Terrorist Mullahs do. Please do not mistreat us for being Lotastaani Chickens. We are Chickens first and Lotastaanis later. We look forward to a Gentlemanly and Amicable Settlement.
Viren Bhai : Please help me to Placate them as they are already in deep distress due to Millions of their brethren and sisters being culled. Cheers
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 29 2004, 03:45 AM
Why do the pakis want Jinnah House? What nerve they have to ask us to "Hand over" ....
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 29 2004, 03:54 AM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 29 2004, 03:45 AM)
Why do the pakis want Jinnah House? What nerve they have to ask us to "Hand over" ....
SSRamachandran : Because Our Prime Minister GiveAway is like that Wonlee. furious.gif Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 29 2004, 04:05 AM
We are Chickens first and Lotastaanis later.
ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif My mistake. My heart goes to the chickens against the brutal oppression from the jihadi mullah-military-RAPE elite combine. As a goodwill gesture, I've urged my attorneys to contact Annan to move a resolution in UN to enforce a pebliscite to oust all those Lottas from the Chickenistan. I assure you that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals ( will accompany monitors from Human Rights and Amnesty International to document first hand the attrocities commited by these People Eating Tasty Animals wink.gif Ofcourse, the "moral and diplomatic" support via our consulates in Kandhar and Kabul to JeM Jaish-e-Murga (Army of Chicken - the feathered kind wink.gif ) and LeT (Laskar-e-Tikka) goes without saying wink.gif
Posted by: Viren Jan 29 2004, 04:15 AM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 28 2004, 06:15 PM)
Why do the pakis want Jinnah House? What nerve they have to ask us to "Hand over" ....
Sigh, Jinnah himself abandoned this house mad.gif . I doubt even his grandson (Nusli Wadia of Bombay Dyeing - a Mumbai resident) cares for it. This demand about Jinnah house isn't anything new. Everytime the winds of peace blow, these beggars will float a bunch of demands along with the usual Kashmir hoping India will fall for it. Read this article from '01: - Author is related to Shiv Sena Supremo Bal Thackeray.
Posted by: Viren Jan 29 2004, 04:58 AM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 28 2004, 07:21 PM)
Begging is one thing ...but "hand over???"
Don't take Pakinglish too literally yaar.. Here's some Pakinglish for you: "We Conmdn action aginst necaler saintest" - and this is by the Prazident of Pak Muslim Leegi Source:
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 29 2004, 05:07 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 29 2004, 04:58 AM)
Don't take Pakinglish too literally yaar.. Here's some Pakinglish for you: "We Conmdn action aginst necaler saintest" - and this is by the Prazident of Pak Muslim Leegi Source:
Viren : I thought Nawaz Shariff’s Statement “If India sees us with a Bad Eye Sight then we will give India a Mouth Breaking Answer with the help of China who is our Underwear Friend” took the cake. However this one not only takes the Cake but the Icing and the Biscuit. Cheers
Posted by: Sudhir Jan 29 2004, 05:50 AM
Krepon warned India and Pakistan were "very vulnerable" to the dirty bomb threat, as was the United States, and urged Washington policymakers to help both blink.gif nations secure radioactive materials.
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Jan 29 2004, 09:00 AM Another Pentagon official declined to discuss the possibility that troops would extend operations to the Pakistan side of the border, where al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) and top lieutenants have long been said to be hiding. But the official said that might have to be the next step. What is going on between Sammy and his Langoti yaar?
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 29 2004, 03:36 PM
QUOTE (SSRamachandran @ Jan 29 2004, 09:59 AM)
Viren .... Good find ROTFL.gif Peregrine : Did nawaz really say that ????? unsure.gif unsure.gif ohmy.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif
SSRamachandran : Regret that I cannot find the quote about Lotastaan’s ”Underwear Friend” but luckily here is the one about "mouth-breaking” response :
Sharif's recent assertion in Lahore that Pakistan is capable of giving a "mouth-breaking" response to any aggressor is indicative of such a trend.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 29 2004, 05:47 PM Stop this media trial of people we should be proud of, some of whom may well have gone wrong. Investigate the matter fully and honestly and quietly, and then proceed to prosecute the guilty (‘greedy’!) ones in a court of law Let me first state where I stand on this whole nuclear issue: I am against anyone having the bomb particularly desperately poor, ill-organised India and Pakistan which, as is evident, cannot even run a bus company with anything even bordering on competence. I was opposed to Pakistan going overtly nuclear and still hold to that view; I am against nuclear proliferation, and am for the prosecution of anyone involved with it. More than anything else I have always been against, and suspicious of, the carte blanche enjoyed by the Army High Command as to the bum, and bestowed by it on Dr AQ Khan’s set-up. And to the publicity stunts indulged in by Dr Khan for which there was no earthly need. Having said which let us get on with it. Asked if he too had been questioned as part of the ongoing ‘debriefings’ of our nuclear scientists, General Aslam Beg told the New York Times of January 27, “They would not dare”. And to emphasise the point said again, “They would not dare”. What was that you said, General? Who would not dare? The State? Since it is the State of Pakistan that is doing the ‘debriefings’ what else could you have meant? Why could the State that pays your keep even now not question you, pray? An all-powerful State to boot, which has the muscle and the will to hang an elected prime minister; which has the authority to dismiss elected governments at will; which has the absolute power to paint some people black and others white as takes its fancy; which can exile elected prime ministers whenever it so chooses; which can mangle the country’s Constitution whenever it so pleases? That State would not ‘dare’ to even question you, a retired government servant? Why? Why can you not be questioned when the scientists who worked their hearts out in making ours a nuclear-capable country, yes there might have been crooks among them who might in the words of our dim-witted FO ‘have proliferated for personal greed’, can be questioned? Why should only they, who excelled in their field of endeavour, face the music now that somebody has stepped on the fat but mangy tail of the Establishment? Only they can be questioned who did their duty many times over, and did it well, in this country where mediocrity rules? My God, what effrontery you have, General, what gall. Why can you not be questioned by a State that routinely arrests and locks away for months on end, respected businessmen, even retired federal secretaries in the name of ‘accountability’? Only because you are a retired full general? I am not surprised at any of what is going on, however. Having seen the shenanigans of Pakistan’s ruling elite over the years I liken it to a school bully who, while he beats up all the little children and steals their tuck, surrenders most abjectly to anyone bigger than himself who so much as threatens to take him on. Well, there it goes again, trying to save its skin and pointing at every one else. And what a spectacle it is making of itself! As per usual, and with not a thought about what the rest of the world might think of the country, just look at the way the Establishment is badmouthing Dr Khan himself, someone who, no matter what anyone might think of him, did deliver what was asked of him. May I agree with someone who said only yesterday that if it hadn’t been for our nuclear wallahs, our generals couldn’t strut about in the manner they do. A little advice to our deaf and unseeing government: Please sirs, stop this media trial of people we should be proud of, some of whom may well have gone wrong. Investigate the matter fully and honestly and quietly, and then proceed to prosecute the guilty (‘greedy’!) ones in a court of law. And please put a leash on your prosecutor who is making such nonsense of your whole case before the Honourable Lahore High Court. I now answer a question my treasured friend and most favourite painter, Mian Ijazul Hassan asked in his article (Benefit of state awards, Daily Times, ’ September 17, 2003) once. Mian Sahib had written movingly about a past British High Commissioner to Pakistan being highly embarrassed at being informed that Khan Bahadur Nazrullah Khan, SPk, MBE, OBE, had passed away unbeknownst to Her Majesty’s Government when he visited Khan Bahadur Sahib’s home in Waziristan to personally deliver an invitation to the wedding of the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer. Mian Sahib asked: “Does anyone ever bother about what happens to our citizens who are recipients of a state award?” In the instant case the British envoy apologised to Faridullah Khan, the Khan Bahadur’s son for the serious faux pas, and immediately sent a message to London where the demise was duly notified in the next Royal Bulletin. Let me tell Mian Sahib what happens to recipients of the highest awards in the Fatherland, an appellation I prefer over Mian Sahib’s choice of ‘Motherland’ for we are such a ‘martial’ people! Honorary Brigadier Mir Shaukat Ali Khan, the last Ruler of Nagar State, the recipient of the Hilal-e-Pakistan and the Hilal-e-Quaid-e-Azam (the second and fourth most senior awards in the Land of the Pure), and a much elected Member of the Northern Areas Council, who had, we must note, gifted the then princely sum of Rs 500,000 to the Quaid-e-Azam when the treasury of Pakistan was virtually empty, passed away in Islamabad after a long illness some months ago. I am assured by the residents of Nagar which I visited to pay my respects to Mir Sahib’s memory for I had known the great gentleman for long years and at whose table in his mountain fastness my friends and I were always welcome, that far from visiting the Mir’s family – the members of which are normally resident in Islamabad in case somebody thinks it would take an whole expedition to get by VVVVIP helicopter to Nagar – neither the Head of State, nor the Head of Government sent even a message of sympathy. Mr Jamali, as we know, has often visited the homes of needed members of parliament whose third cousins had passed away years ago. This is the way the Fatherland, our quite graceless Fatherland, treats its ‘honoured’ citizens, Mian Sahib. Whilst it is the subject of a separate piece, I might add that the Islamic Republic deals in like fashion with those of its servants – and I don’t mean just the nuclear scientists – who are the most hard working and sincere and faithful and loyal to it. The State of Pakistan ought to be hugely ashamed of itself. May I end by taking the liberty of correcting Mian Sahib for the following minor errors in his above-mentioned article in which he had also said I could as well be Adjutant to the Queen: The Queen (or King) does not have ‘Adjutants’ but Equerries; and the street in good old London Town where Gieves and Hawkes are to be found at Number One, is Savile Row, not ‘Seville Roe’. More than anything else, it is not Spain we speak about. Postscript: Since about a week or so, my telephone has rung three times at odd hours, and while nobody speaks up when the call is answered one can hear someone breathing at the other end. The calling number doesn’t show up on the CLI. Could the PTCL please explain this phenomenon? The English Language, especially its Grammar and Spelling, have never been a Lotastaani Strength. Cheers
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 29 2004, 10:31 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 29 2004, 05:47 PM)
Let me first state where I stand on this whole nuclear issue: I am against anyone having the bomb particularly desperately poor, ill-organised India and Pakistan which, as is evident, cannot even run a bus company with anything even bordering on competence.
It is not India that hawked "necaler teknalaji" on the street corner It is not Indian "saintests" who h0@red themselves to any nation willing to give them money. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......... furious.gif furious.gif furious.gif furious.gif This shame less paki even during the last death pangs of his state has to do a India Pak equal equal swipe. ... Man I hate them. furious.gif furious.gif furious.gif . And the last part about London ... adjutant....Equerries.... Is he showing off his knowledge about royalty? I guess he longs for the days when the british ruled us. Boy these pakis are masochistic. ...Who cares about the royal family anyway , leave alone taking pride in remembering the right terms for their servants. pakee.gif And the last bit about telephone...what is that about ....The guy seems delirious. I think some one needs to splash a "lota" of water on his face and slap him a couple of times. Guess the guy has gone off the scales realizing that the creators of their "crown jewels" are being used up like toilet paper by the Junta.
Posted by: O Vijay Jan 29 2004, 10:35 PM,1,1790110.story?coll=chi-news-hed U.S. plans Al Qaeda offensive Sources say military is mapping operation to strike inside Pakistan January 28, 2004 By Christine Spolar Tribune foreign correspondent Published January 28, 2004 WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration, deeply concerned about recent assassination attempts against Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and a resurgence of Taliban forces in neighboring Afghanistan, is preparing a U.S. military offensive that would reach inside Pakistan with the goal of destroying Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda network, military sources said. U.S. Central Command is assembling a team of military intelligence officers that would be posted in Pakistan ahead of the operation, according to sources familiar with details of the plan and internal military communications. The sources spoke on the condition they not be identified. As now envisioned, the offensive would involve Special Operations forces, Army Rangers and Army ground troops, sources said. A Navy aircraft carrier would be deployed in the Arabian Sea. Referred to in internal Pentagon messages as the "spring offensive," the operation would be driven by certain undisclosed events in Pakistan and across the region, sources said. A source familiar with details of the plan said this is "not like a contingency plan for North Korea, something that sits on a shelf. This planning is like planning for Iraq. They want this plan to be executable, now." The Defense Department declined to comment on the planned offensive or its details. Such an operation almost certainly would demand the cooperation of Musharraf, who previously has allowed only a small number of U.S. Special Operations forces to work alongside Pakistani troops in the semi-autonomous tribal areas. A military source in Washington said last week, "We are told we're going into Pakistan with Musharraf's help." Yet a large-scale offensive by U.S. forces within the nuclear-armed Islamic republic could be political dynamite for Musharraf. The army general, who took power in a bloodless coup in 1999, has come under growing political pressure from Islamic parties, and his cooperation with U.S. anti-terrorism efforts is widely unpopular among average Pakistanis. Nor can Musharraf count on the loyalty of all of Pakistan's armed forces or its intelligence agency, members of which helped set up and maintain the Taliban in Afghanistan and are suspected of ties to militant Islamic groups. Speaking on Friday at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Musharraf again rejected the need for U.S. forces to enter Pakistan to search for bin Laden. "That is not a possibility at all," Musharraf said. "It's a very sensitive issue." The U.S. military is operating under the belief that, despite his recent statements, Musharraf's thinking has changed, sources said. Musharraf said last week that bin Laden and his followers likely were hiding in the mountains along the Afghan border. He also said "we are reasonably sure that it is Al Qaeda" who was behind the two attempts on his life. An offensive into Pakistan to pursue Al Qaeda would be in keeping with President Bush's vow to strike wherever and whenever the United States feels threatened and to pursue terrorist elements to the end. "The best way to defend America . . . is to stay on the offensive and find these killers, one by one," Bush said last week. "We're going to stay on the hunt, which requires good intelligence, good cooperation, good participation with friends and allies around the world." Musharraf's vulnerability is of deep concern to U.S. officials. If he were killed, Bush administration officials say, it is unlikely that any successor would be as willing to work toward U.S. goals to eliminate Islamic extremists. The U.S. military plan is characterized within the Pentagon as "a big effort" in the next year. Military analysts had previously judged that a bold move against Islamic extremists and bin Laden, in particular, was more likely to happen in spring 2005. A series of planning orders--referred to in military jargon as warning orders--for the offensive were issued in recent weeks. The deadline for key planning factors to be detailed by the U.S. military was Jan. 21. Sources said the plan against Al Qaeda would be driven by events in the region rather than set deadlines and that delays could occur. But military sources said the push for this spring appeared to be triggered by the assassination attempts on Musharraf, both of which came in December, and, to some extent, the capture of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Hussein was captured after eight months of an intense military and intelligence effort on the ground in Iraq. Pentagon and administration officials, buoyed by that success, believe a similar determined effort could work in Pakistan and lead to the capture or killing of bin Laden, said sources familiar with the planning. Thousands of U.S. forces would be involved, as well as Pakistani troops, planners said. Some of the 10,600 U.S. troops now in Afghanistan would be shifted to the border region as part of regular troop movements; some would be deployed within Pakistan. "Before we were constrained by the border. Musharraf did not want that. Now we are told we're going into Pakistan with Musharraf's help," a well-placed military source said. Internal Pentagon communications indicate the U.S. offensive would rely on several areas of operation, including Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries in the region. The U.S. also is weighing how and if Iran can be persuaded, through direct or indirect channels, to lend help, according to internal Pentagon communications. The U.S. is eager to avoid a repeat of the Afghan war in 2001, when some Al Qaeda fighters were believed to have escaped into Iran. Military planners said the offensive would not require a significant increase in U.S. troops in South Asia. But Special Operations forces that shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq in 2003 will return. "We don't have enough forces but we can rely on proxy forces in that area," said a military source, referring to Pakistani troops. "This is designed to go after the Taliban and everybody connected with it." Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune
Posted by: Viren Jan 30 2004, 01:07 AM
About time...
Posted by: Viren Jan 30 2004, 01:13 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 28 2004, 06:03 PM)
We are Chickens first and Lotastaanis later.
Sorry Peregrine. GoI says People-to-People contact okay but Chicken-to-Chicken contact is a No-No tongue.gif
It has also decided to intensify vigil over passengers of Samjhauta Express from Pakistan. .. "More attention is being paid on border states like Rajasthan, Gujarat and Punjab, where a red alert has been declared",
Posted by: SSRamachandran Jan 30 2004, 10:28 PM
From dawn Abdul Qadeer Khan key suspect in nuclear leak: ISLAMABAD, Jan 30: Abdul Qadeer Khan is the prime suspect in a probe into alleged nuclear leaks to Iran and Libya, two senior government and military officials told AFP today. Evidence collected so far strongly points to Khan's involvement in the alleged leaks in the late 1980s and early 1990s, they told AFP. "There is sufficient evidence of linkage between a handful of individuals in Pakistan and the international black market mafia trading in nuclear technology, with Khan being a primary figure in the shadowy business," the government official said, on condition of anonymity. (AFP) (Posted @ 14:25 PST) Looks like father of the bum is free to be a terrorist again. It was expected though . And Uncle is so very happy with the way thing went US lauds probe against scientists NEW YORK, Jan 29: The US State Department has reaffirmed its satisfaction with the "very firm commitment" given by President Pervez Musharraf that Pakistan's nuclear assets would not fall into the wrong hands and welcomed the investigations launched by the government
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 30 2004, 10:30 PM WASHINGTON: The US has reminded Americans not to travel to Pakistan if at all possible, warning of terrorist threats and the presence of Al-Qaeda and Taliban remnants along the border with Afghanistan. "The Department of State continues to warn US citizens to defer non-essential travel to Pakistan due to ongoing concerns about the possibility of terrorist activity directed against American citizens and interests there," the State Department said on Thursday. As security had been tightened at official US installations, terror groups may attack Americans at more vulnerable targets, including hotels, clubs, restaurants, schools or places of worship, the department said. Americans in Pakistan had been on the alert for months over possible new terror strikes like those that targeted compatriots since Washington launched its campaign against terrorism after the September 11, 2001 attacks. In addition we have the following evidence of Un-Safety of Life in Lotastaan : user posted image When will Dalmiya come to his senses and cancel the Tour to Lotastaan? Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 30 2004, 11:16 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 30 2004, 01:00 PM)
When will Dalmiya come to his senses and cancel the Tour to Lotastaan?
Blame GoI not Dalmiya - this mian's "dal" is kaali onleee.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 31 2004, 01:29 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 30 2004, 11:16 PM)
Blame GoI not Dalmiya - this mian's "dal" is kaali onleee.
Viren : Dalmiya is the dispicable coup male off-spring of a female of the canine species. furious.gif He raised Heaven, Hell and Earth when the Government of India issued specific Instructions not to tour or play Pakistan in certain Neutral Places. Cheers
Posted by: Viren Jan 31 2004, 02:37 AM
I agree with you Peregrine. But where does the buck stop - at GoI and/or PMs desk. Is GoI so weak that a businessman can bully his way into getting his way around. So who's India being bullied by? There's another gravy train from Pakistan - now everyone wants to jump on-board. We saw filmstars, politicians tour Pakistan. Even under-19 cricketers went there and trashed them. Businessmen advocating trade normalization, TV Producers wanting exclusive rights, Sponsors wanting best spots are all jumping on this band-wagon. Not a peep yet from the likes of Saurav or Tendulkar blink.gif Anyone on lookout for the Indian taxpayers who are footing the bill for all this security arrangements? furious.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 31 2004, 04:17 PM,curpg-1.cms WASHINGTON: Pakistan’s nuclear shenanigans are unravelling "like a knitting ball of wool that falls to the floor" according to American analysts. Every day, every hour, is bringing another twist, a turn, a new revelation. Basically, after years of denying proliferation, Pakistan has been busted. Here is the lowdown on Pakistan tale of nuclear infamy pieced together from a variety of sources. The US, or at least one section of the establishment, has had Abdul Qadeer Khan (AQK), the father of the Pakistani (or Islamic) bomb, in its cross hairs for many years – in fact, ever since he stole the uranium enrichment blueprints from a Dutch company and decamped. But the interest was on and off, depending on Pakistan’s usefulness to US. It wasn’t until 9/11 that Washington had to wake up and face its own masterly inactivity of two decades, especially after Iran and Libya unexpectedly spilled the beans. Meantime, according to Arnaud de Borchgrave, Washington scribe and spook writer, US intelligence had discovered after Musharraf came to power that he and AQK "were not on the same page". Washington persuaded Musharraf, without too much effort, to sideline Khan. The Musharraf–AQK animosity, if true, is hard to fathom. One explanation is strong personality differences. AQK brooks no interference, no accountability. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto brought him home to Pakistan and gave him a black check (promising the rest of the country would eat grass so long as he made the Bomb). Gen Zia worshipped him. Khan ignored Benazir and reported directly to then President Ghulam Ishaq Khan, now known as the Grandfather of the Pak bomb. In fact, one story goes that Benazir was clueless about her country’s nuclear status in 1989 till the CIA briefed her in Washington. By the time Nawaz Sharief came to power, the Khan-Army-ISI nexus was so strong that the civilian leadership was completely out of the loop. Khan dealt directly with several of Musharraf’s predecessors. At some point, he fell out with Musharraf. Khan’s arrogance is legendary. One former Pakistani bureaucrat in Benazir’s secretariat revealed recently that Khan once wrote her such an insolent letter that he perforce noted on the file that the nuclear scientist should learn how to communicate with a head of government. AQK’s best equation in the Pak military was with former army chief Mirza Aslam Beg. They both shared a common vision of the Islamic Ummah and Pakistan’s place in it. Both saw nothing wrong in playing nuclear footsie with Iran and Libya. Incidentally, both Beg and Musharraf are Mohajirs (refugees from India) while Khan too migrated to Pakistan from Bhopal only in 1952. At some point, both Khan and Beg came to hate Musharraf’s kow-towing of the US. Beg has now come out openly in defence of Khan and the nuclear establishment, splitting the Pakistani military, although the extent of his current influence is not known. He is also spitting defiance and taunting the US and Musharraf. "A woman like Benazir Bhutto never listened to the US and refused to freeze the nuclear programme," Geo TV’s Hamir Mir quotes him as saying. "But the present commando president is worse then a woman. He is lying at the feet of George W Bush." Beg also boasted to the New York Times that the Musharraf regime would not dare to question him. "If he claims to be a commando I was a commando myself," Mir quotes Beg as telling him. "If he is going to take action against me then he must be prepared for my reaction." While Musharraf has been trying to pin the blame for proliferation on past regimes, the past is not letting him lie easily. "Musharraf can play games with politicians and scientists, but not with me," Beg tells Mir, adding, "He cannot touch me. My hands are clean but his hands are not clean." Now Benazir Bhutto too has joined Beg to expose Musharraf's role in proliferation. In a statement, she pointed out that Pakistan’s commerce ministry in the Musharraf regime had issued a brazen advertisement announcing sale of nuclear technology. She also noted that Musharraf has personally visited Libya around the same time the ad was issued. The US, seemingly in yet another Faustian bargain, has glossed over all this, including Musharraf’s transactions with North Korea, and backed him. Washington needs him – or at least thinks it needs him -- in the war on terrorism in Afghanistan. Beg meanwhile has predicted that "he (Musharraf) is just like tissue paper. They (the US) will use him for some time and then he will be thrown in the dustbin of history." But till such time, Musharraf appears intent on fixing - or at least seen to be fixing - AQK. Pakistani papers are full of leaks on his behaviour and bank balances, making him out to be a rapacious crook who has stashed away millions (when the general consensus is that he was given a blank check). One account spoke of how a devastated Musharraf had tears in his eyes when he came to know of Khan’s perfidy.Perfidious Riff Raff shedding Crocodile Tears at AQK’s Perfidy Even Musharraf’s loyal followers appear split on the Khan issue. Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayat, who on Thursday defended AQK and said he was not a suspect in the proliferation investigation, was forced to recant a day later and clarify that he had merely said any speculation was premature. Musharraf meanwhile has already pronounced a guilty verdict ahead of the so-called investigation, calling the scientists "anti-state" and promising that they will get harsh punishment. Going by Pakistan’s past record and present rumblings, the hunter could also become the hunted. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 31 2004, 05:06 PM
Its official! We are monkeys with razors in our hands! Readers will kindly forgive me for repeating this simile but what can I do, when we simply are. For monkeys, whilst they can hold bananas and peanuts and peel them before eating them, simply do not have the physiological and mental capabilities to hold a razor — what was called the cutthroat — and shave themselves, or one another. They would lop of the head attached to the face they were shaving!
India must now export a Few Million Cut Throat Razors to Lotastaan – one each for every Member of the Lotastaani Armed Forces and for the Religious Fundamental Terrorist Mullahs. Monkey See – Monkey Do. Cheers
Posted by: Ajgir Jan 31 2004, 08:05 PM ISLAMABAD: The architect of Pakistan's nuclear programme, Abdul Qadeer Khan, was removed from his post to "facilitate" an ongoing probe into the suspected transfer of nuclear technology to Iran and Libya, officials said, Geo news channel reported on Saturday. "In the acts of nuclear proliferation by a few individuals and to facilitate those investigations in a free and objective manner Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, special advisor to the Prime Minister has ceased to hold his office,". Peace
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 1 2004, 01:54 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 31 2004, 02:37 AM)
I agree with you Peregrine. But where does the buck stop - at GoI and/or PMs desk. Is GoI so weak that a businessman can bully his way into getting his way around. So who's India being bullied by?
Viren It is not the Business men who are bullying the GoI and/or the PM’s desk. There is no bullying it is just a case of the typical Indians falling for the Lotastaani “Made Up” Charm and in case of Cricket Tour of course the “Packet” being sent to Dalmiya’s Swiss Bank account. It is the Indians themselves who have no collective guard against Lotastaan. Take the case of the Lotastaani Films Stars, Playback Singers etc. Where as Lotastaan bans Indian Movies, does not allow Indian Artists to Perform in Lotastaan our Entertainment Industry is falling head over heals to provide employment to the Lotastaani Artists. It made me sick to have a Lotastaani Singer used for the Indian Teams song for the World Cricket Cup – Are all Indian singer’s dead? Similarly it is the case of the Politicians. Even the Chief Minister of Punjab is in LaWhore asking for the removal of Border controls between Indian and Lotastaani Punjab : The man has obviously forgotten the Massacre of the Sikhs and Hindus by the Muslims as well as the painful Lotastaani Supported/Trained/Operated Khalistan Movement. The Shias till today Mourn the Atrocities committed upon them by the Sunnis about 1500 Years Ago and in remembrance flail themselves during Muharram. As far as the Cricket Team is concerned they seem to have been emasculated by Dalmiya and Co. The New Zealand and other Cricket Teams did not play in Peshawar and Karachi due to the Terrorist Problems. The Indian Team is being forced to play at these centres. It seems that the Indian Government and Cricketing Authorities refuse to think of the consequences of an attack on the Indian Team. What if a Player or Players is-or Injured or Killed? Will the government of India accept a few Paltry US Dollars in recompense to the Injured/Killed Player or Players Family or Families. In comparison we have the UK Government trying to stop the Zimbabwe Tour on “Moral Grounds” whereas the Indian Government is not willing to Intervene for the sake of the Safety of Life of the Indian Team. The worst part is that the Lotastaan Cricket Control Board is Controlled by the Lotastaani Army and the profits are funnelled for the clandestine use of the Army. May be the profits will end up financing more Terrorists Attacks in India. I only hope GoI knows what it is doing as Prime Minister GiveAway is Giving Away everything to ensure his Nobel Prize. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 1 2004, 02:11 AM
Viren : It is with a heavy heart and deep regret that I have to convey to you the sad demise of all the Members of the General Committee of the Lotastaani Chicken Association. Every Member of the General Committee has been made “Halal” on the pretext of having Bird Flu but in fact these were all Healthy Chickens whose only fault was that they considered themselves as CHICKENS FIRST and Lotastaanis afterwards just as all British Muslims are MUSLIMS FIRST and British afterwards or the Muslims Citizens of the USA are MUSLIMS FIRST and Americans afterwards or the French Muslims who are MUSLIMS FIRST and French afterwards or the Thai Muslims are MUSLIMS FIRST and Thai afterwards and so on and so forth. The remaining Able Chickens of Lotastaan have been conscripted to be “Hallaled” for the coming Eid Festival and as such there is not even a Tenth Layer of Leadership left to carry on the good works of the Lotastaani Chicken Association which is presently totally destroyed. It is hoped that future Generations of Lotastaani Chickens can come to the Fore and Form a Strong Lotastaani Chicken Association which will ensure Equal and Democratic Rights for the Lotastaani Chicken community including but not limited to Voting (if they ever have a proper free and fair elections in Lotastaan) as part of a joint electorate and not under the heading of a separate Chicken community. May the Good Lord provide Moksha, Mukti, Nirvaana and Shanti to the Souls of the Departed Lotastaani Chickens and also to the Souls of those Lotastaani Chicken who have been conscripted for Slaughter for the coming Eid Festival. May their Souls Rest in Everlasting Peace. LONG LIVE LOTASTAANI CHICKEN ASSOCIATION Cheers
Posted by: Ram Feb 1 2004, 06:47 AM
OK friends, here is a letter to Shekar Gupta of "Pakistan Express" (IE) in response to him being awed by terrorist genral Musa at world economic summit in Davos. Cheers Musa awes Gupta: Dear Mr. GUPTA, I have to tell you, that just as westerners were 'awed' by their pet dictator Musharaff during his visit to Davos, I am awed, actually, stunned that you advocate that India also follow suit, instead of doing what its national interests dictate, and also be awed by Musharaff: In your article, you also point out that just as the USA follows a pragmatic, real-politick path in securing its national interests instead of morality and emotionalism, and if this means cutting deals with unsavory characters, so be it; India should also conduct its foreign policy based on real-politick. Indeed you are right, but sir, may I humbly suggest that the same USA went against the opinion of the entire world and did what it had to in Iraq. Why? You guessed it, supreme national interests. Thus, India need not follow the west's lead in treating Musharaff with kid gloves, India ought to do what is in its national interests. Now, Sir, granted India is no superpower to challenge USA on its support to Musharaff. But surely, you know sir that for USA-led west, terrorism unleashed by Musharaff and his goons against India isn't quite on the top of their agenda. And just as an almost failed state like Pakistan persisted with its terrorism against India despite being a 'front-line-ally' in the so called global war on terror without incurring any wrath from the west, so can India, a more resourceful country, withstand the wrath of the west by taking a tough line against Musharaff. Also, sir, you forgetting that Musharaff is doing everything he can, including possibly allowing US troops to enter Pakistani soil and hunt down US-specific terrorists. He has even cooperated in arresting and sacking Pakistan's national hero, Quadeer Khan, the father of the Islamic bomb. He has given the FBI a free reign to hunt down criminals. In a nutshell, USA has every reason to trust Musharaff, and it is a symbiotic relationship in which both Musharaff and USA benefit. But sir, I fail to see what it is that India gains by mollycoddling Musharaff. The same Musharaff will not even hand over 20 of the most vilest of vile anti-India criminals that enjoy Pakistani hospitality. The same Musharaff has described the terrorists he dispatches to India as 'freedom fighters' right in front of your admiring gaze during the Agra summit; and I might add without being challenged by you and your and your Indian journalist colleagues. Sir, it is the same Musharaff who invaded Indian territory in Kargil, soon after PM Vajpayee's trip to Lahore, costing India the lives of 1000+ Indian soldiers. I don't know if that matters to you. And most importantly, sir, Musharaff and his army gang have not abandoned their quest for geo-strategic parity with India en route to geo-strategic supremacy over India in the region. Balkanizing India using its communal divide remains at the top of Pakistani elites' agenda. In other words, their use of Islamic terrorism and nuclear blackmail are crucial instruments in achieving their goals. At best these tactics are currently put in abeyance, but not discarded. And sir, even in coming to the negotiating table, Musharaff has not shed Pakistan's dreams of annexing Kashmir or parts thereof. When Musharaff talks about 'flexibility', he means that Pakistan keeps what it has, namely POK, Northern areas etc, but India must relinquish the Kashmir valley or accept some division along the lines of the odious Chenab formula; division of Kashmir along religious lines. Sir, do you call this flexibility? Do you describe this as the posture of someone genuinely looking for peace? Do you call Musharaff's expectation, i.e,. tying to achieve through negotiations what could not be achieved through war and terrorism as someone who is realistic? Thus, sir, you advocating that India follow USA's lead in mollycoddling Musharraff reeks more of cowardice than real-politick. Musharaff has given India no reason, at least not yet, to show that he is sincere and realistic and pragmatic. Short of Islamic terrorism against India and the associated specter of nuclear war, Pakistan simply fades away from the world headlines. Do you honestly believe then that he is willing to give up that card? And what does one make of India if it gives into such blackmail tactics? Bottom line sir, is that Musharraff is an anti-India jihadi, except that he wears Armani suits, drinks scotch whisky, speaks good English rather glibly, loves puppy dogs, and exhibits other superficial traits that make for good coverage on CNN, BBC, Fox etc. But sir, mollycoddling him is not in India's national interests. Maintaining a tough diplomatic/political posture is. I hope you see reason and logic in my arguments. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Feb 1 2004, 06:57 AM
Ram, thumbup.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 1 2004, 08:23 PM The savaging of Pakistan in newspapers across the United States that was beginning to ebb, gained fresh life with, first the President’s CNN interview to Ms Christian Amanpour (who always reminds me of a younger Begum Nusrat Bhutto) and then story after story from the well-wired Pakistani stringer of the Washington Post. He it was who first named Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan, both in his own newspaper in Pakistan and the one that he strings for here, as the man who had passed on nuclear materials and know-how to Libya, Iran and perhaps North Korea for no reason higher than money. He also wrote about Dr Khan’s vast interests in business and real estate holdings. There is a phrase in English which says it all: cutting one’s nose to spite one’s face. As the storm raged around Pakistan’s alleged nuclear waywardness and the risk such irresponsible conduct posed to the West, I asked one of this town’s leading Pakistan ‘experts’ what the endgame was. “Will Pakistan, if found guilty as charged, be hanged by the neck by the next tree or will it be let off just for the last time with the direst of warnings?” I wanted to know. He did not disagree that this entire ‘nuclear-secrets-sold’ business was part of a well-planned and deftly executed campaign. How is it possible for every major newspaper in this country to run the same story over and over again? It is unprofessional but it makes perfect sense if the purpose is to bludgeon the country into doing what the big and mighty lords of the world think it should do. “Repeat the medicine till the patient is dead,” could be a good slogan for the Pakistan-bashing that has gone on here for the last several weeks. The Embassy of Pakistan has maintained a Buddha-like calm while the media war on Pakistan has raged on. Perhaps unlike the rest of us who hang around on the sidelines, the ‘core professionals’ have seen the light, in which case, it would be my earnest request to them to kindly share their wisdom with us unenlightened ones. Not a word has come out of the embassy or any of Pakistan’s paid and duly accredited representatives in any American newspaper on the nuclear issue. Neither am I aware of any of our distinguished diplomats having gone on television or radio to speak in defence of the country that keeps them living in the style to which they have become accustomed. It is for this reason that what a small group of Pakistanis living in New Jersey has done deserves to be saluted. Syed Asif Alam of the Association of Pakistani Professionals organised a meeting at Columbia University last week to discuss the American media onslaught against Pakistan, to understand what was behind it and to devise ways to deal with it. He gathered a small and committed group of Pakistanis who all came at their own expense. They agreed that the US media should be engaged in a proactive manner. They said the media’s single-track agenda was that ‘Pakistani begins and ends with extremists’. Recently, Syed Asif Alam along with some friends went to meet the New York Times editorial board to protest the negative manner in which Pakistan was being dealt with. He has also been emailing critical columnists back and forth in an attempt to point out that they are not being fair. Far be it from me to suggest that this is something our diplomatic reps should be doing. At the Columbia meeting, Moeed Pirzada drew attention to the ‘synchronisation’ and ‘timing’ of stories on both sides of the Atlantic that were designed to establish that Pakistan was a dangerous proliferator. “What is the objective? Who coordinates? What interests influence the media? What economics lies behind such moves? Why do such stories not appear about Israel and India even when major failures take place? Is the market for ideas and information free?” he asked the meeting. However, I think we should all stop worrying because our esteemed information minister and principal spokesman of the Government of Pakistan, Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, arrives on these shores soon and who can doubt his troubleshooting abilities! Good to see a Lotastaani complaining about un-professionalism when the same Lotastaani and his Ilk have been misinforming, misleading and brainwashing the Entire Lotastaani Population with false news about victories over India and spreading hate against Non-Muslims. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 2 2004, 04:18 AM ISLAMAWORST : Father of Pakistan’s nuclear programme Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan has confessed that he proliferated nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea, official sources confirmed on Sunday. “We have completed our probe and the information provided to Pakistan by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Libya and Iran has matched the findings of our investigation,” sources said. They said Dr AQ Khan was in debriefing sessions for eight hours over the last couple of months and he admitted to having cooperated with Iran, Libya and North Korea. However, sources said, the government had not decided what action to take against Dr Khan. “Maybe it will be of administrative nature or the government may decide on a trial,” the officials said. They said that besides a dozen scientists, engineers and security staff, General ® Aslam Beg, General ® Jehangir Karamat and Lt Gen Zulfikar Ali Khan had also been questioned during investigations. But the officials refrained from sharing any details of the interviews with these generals. “Dr Khan named the retired generals or deceased people for having pressured him to proliferate,” the officials said. The officials admitted that it was complete intelligence failure that machines, drawings and other equipment found their way out of Pakistan. “We have traced a network that Dr Khan had outside KRL and abroad.” They said these acts of proliferation took place from 1991 to 1997. “We have also traced the entire route of this proliferation and Dr Khan’s connections with the nuclear black marketers.” The officials said around four people, who were already in custody, had collaborated with Dr Khan and action would be taken against them too. In administrative action, Dr Khan was sacked on Saturday from the office of Adviser to the Prime Minister on Strategic Programmes. Cheers
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 2 2004, 08:38 PM
Is there any thing Illegal that these people do not do ? Whistle blown on illegal CFC trade CFCs come into Pakistan along with Afghanistan's heroin The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, already a key route for the heroin trade, is being used for a new type of smuggling - chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs). CFCs - chemicals found in aerosols and refrigeration equipment and considered to be responsible for depleting the ozone layer - are mostly banned under the Montreal Protocol. Production is still allowed for "basic needs production" for developing countries to use in air conditioning equipment and refrigeration equipment. But now, a black market for Europe-produced CFCs has sprung up in some Asian countries. Salem Mutuwala, director of Karachi-based Symphony Limited - for whom CFCs are a small part of the country's legitimate business - told BBC World Service's One Planet that "at least 20 to 25" Pakistani businesses were trading in CFCs smuggled in as part of the heroin trade. "We have pointed it out to the government and the government doesn't do anything," Mr Mutuwala added. Porous borders He said the main CFC smuggling routes were from Afghanistan - responsible for a great proportion of the heroin trade - or China. "They come from over porous borders," Mr Mutuwala said. CFCs were found to be depleting the ozone layer in the 1980s "Some are Indian, and some are strange manufacturing brands that we seem to have coming now. They seem to be East European or Russian." The CFCs came over in two main ways, he said. Some were disguised in cylinders inside large containers - so many of them that it was impossible to check each one. But he said that the main way was through the heroin trade. "During the Taleban time, the heroin trade had completely dried up, so all smuggling had stopped of all illegal trade," he explained. "Now, after the liberation of Afghanistan, everything is coming illegally. There is so much money to be brought back. "The heroin goes out, they have to bring something back to this area to sell back." He said he had pointed out his allegations to the Pakistani Government, but he felt they were unwilling to look at them. "If it wants to stop it, it will stop it - but I don't think the government wants to stop it," he said. However, the Central Revenue Board in charge of customs in Pakistan denied it had received any information from Mr Mutuwala. Chairman Ryas Malik said they were "completely unaware" of his allegations. He added that they did not know of any seizures or detections of smuggled CFCs in the country. Brokers The process by which CFCs are smuggled is sometimes a complex chain. Companies in the West produce the chemicals for export to countries where they are required under the basic needs production provision. The Montreal Protocol is the most successful environmental treaty in history Usually the CFCs are sold to perfectly legal brokers. However, these brokers may then pass them on to less legitimate businesses. In recent years, CFCs from an Atofina chemical plant in Bilbao have gone on the black market in Asia, and there are concerns at how they are ending up there - although Atofina themselves are not implicated. "We've seen this in our investigations," Dr Ezra Clarke, from the Environmental Investigation Agency, told One Planet. "Although the sale of CFCs from plants like this is perfectly legal, they're often sold to brokers or to intermediate countries. "Through these, they can then be laundered on to black markets, where they can then be smuggled." Investigations found that the intermediate countries most often used are Dubai and Singapore. Mr Clarke said that to investigate what was happening, the Environmental Investigation Agency set up dummy company of brokers. "Most of these chemicals from the plants where they're produced are then sent on to brokers," he said. "The people that we were dealing with in Singapore were chemical dealers - they weren't the producers, they were middlemen."
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 2 2004, 10:11 PM
Pak to give back India 125 acres PTI[ MONDAY, FEBRUARY 02, 2004 04:45:39 AM ] WAGAH: Pakistan ’s revenue department has agreed to a claim staked by Indian revenue officials for 125 acres of land that belonged to India but was in Islamabad ’s possession. The land in question belonged to Daoke village falling under sub-tehsil Attari in Amritsar district. Amritsar deputy commissioner Raminder Singh — who went to Pakistan on January 29 along with all relevant revenue records showing 125 acres of Indian land in possession of the Pakistan government since Independence — said on his return: "In Pakistan, I held detailed discussions with senior officials of the revenue department at Lahore, and during the meeting, a conclusion was reached that the claim staked by India is genuine and they assured the Indian officials to do the needful in this regard at the earliest."Singh said, "The matter is under the notice of Pakistan and hopefully either they would hand over the same land or any alternate land or may pay the amount of the land in question." Pay amount for land in question !!!!!!!!???????? furious.gif furious.gif furious.gif
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 3 2004, 07:37 PM
THE STORY GETS INTRESTING tv_feliz.gif liar.gif pakee.gif Flush.gif From the yawn Government Said to Know of Nuke Transfers ISLAMABAD, 03 Feb: Abdul Qadeer Khan told investigators he gave nuclear weapons technology to other countries with the full knowledge of top army officials, including now-President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a friend of the scientist said today. Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan's top nuclear scientist, told the friend he hadn't violated Pakistan's laws by giving out-of-use machines for enriching uranium to Iran, North Korea and other countries, the friend told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. "Whatever I did, it was in the knowledge of the bosses," Khan's friend quoted him as saying. The scientist also said that two former military chiefs — Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg and Gen. Jehangir Karamat — and even Musharraf were "aware of everything" he was doing, the friend said. "I am also convinced that (Khan) couldn't act unilaterally," the friend added. Military spokesman Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan denied Musharraf was privy to any transfer of nuclear technology or authorized Khan to do it. "It is absolutely wrong," Sultan said. Musharraf "was not involved in any such matter," he said. "No such thing has happened since he seized power in 1999." Musharraf has headed the army since 1998, and before that held a number of top positions in the military. The official said two individuals, from Sri Lanka and Germany, operated on behalf of Khan in smuggling that began in the 1980s and continued at least until 1997. (AP/AFP) (Updated @ 18:45 PST) AQ Khan points finger at former army chiefs Aslam Beg and Jehangir Karamat : ISLAMABAD, 03 Feb: Two former army chiefs were questioned in the probe into nuclear leaks to Iran, Libya and North Korea, but no evidence was found against them, a military official said today. Abdul Qadeer Khan named ex-army chiefs Aslam Beg and Jehangir Karamat in an 11-page statement confessing to selling nuclear secrets to the three states between 1988 and 1997, the official said. "He named two gentlemen, generals Beg and Karamat, who were then questioned," the military official said on condition of anonymity. "(Khan) said they were in the know. In one case he said he did it on their instructions, but not directly. They asked someone else and that fellow instructed A Q Khan and that man is now dead." The middleman was the late brigadier Imtiaz Ali, defence adviser to Benazir Bhutto during her first tenure as prime minister from 1988 to 1990. Both Beg, who was army chief from 1988 to 1991, and Karamat, army chief from 1997 to 1998, were "thoroughly" questioned during a two month probe by Pakistani investigators. "There was no evidence found of what A Q Khan was saying, so it could not be sustained," the official said. "If there is any more evidence of involvement of anyone else they will be questioned, no one is above the law. (AFP) (Posted @ 14:10 PST)
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 3 2004, 08:11 PM
NICE TO SEE THE UMMAH RATTING OUT ON EACH OTHER LIKE PETTY CRIMINALS AS COMPARED TO THE IMAGE OF AN UNIFIED ISLAMIC BLOCK. It is not a surprise , but it is scary to finally read in black and white how this nuclear "crack-dealership" has been institutionalized for the past 15 years. sad.gif Wat is with the US being all quiet about it? I would like to see this bickering lead to the eventual balkanization of pakistan. May be just a pipe dream. Anyway is the latest lambasting from NEWYORKTIMES
Posted by: Mudy Feb 3 2004, 10:53 PM
Wat is with the US being all quiet about it?
It is squeezing Paki dictator, all juice is coming out. US is greedy waiting for last drop. Well enjoy show till it last. Climax is yet to come. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Feb 4 2004, 05:04 AM Here is a little excerpt that caught my attention.. (1) According to Human Rights Watch report, on the evening of January 25, the chief justice of Pakistan's Supreme Court, Saeeduzzaman Siddiqui, was summoned to Musharraf's offices. Musharraf asked Siddiqui to take an oath of loyalty under the newly promulgated PCO, but Siddiqui refused, saying that it was impossible for him take a fresh oath because he had already been sworn in (Mubashir Zaidi, "The Missing Constitution," Herald (Karachi), February 2000). Later that night, Interior Minister, retired General Moin-ud-Din Haider, accompanied by two active-duty generals, went to Siddiqui's residence and asked him to reconsider his decision, but Siddiqui again declined. At 6:00 a.m. on January 26, an army colonel arrived at Siddiqui's residence and told him that he should not go to the Supreme Court that day. The area around his house was subsequently cordoned off and no one was allowed to enter or leave his residence. Along with Chief Justice Siddiqui, five other judges of the Supreme Court were forced to resign when they refused to take the oath, as were nine provincial High Court judges ("Judges who did not take oath under the military's Provisional Constitutional Order," Pakistan Press International, January 27, 2000). Interior Minister Haider told Human Rights Watch that four of the provincial judges were not invited to take the oath "as a means of getting corrupt judges to leave" (Human Rights Watch meeting with Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Moin-ud-Din Haider, Minister of Interior, Narcotics Control and Capital Administration and Development Division, New York, March 21, 2000). The author is Executive Director of the Independent Center for Strategic Studies and Analysis (ICSSA) in Pakistan. His latest book “A War on Islam?” has just been released in UK.
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 4 2004, 06:41 AM WASHINGTON: Pakistan’s disgraced nuclear scientist A.Q.Khan has implicated the country’s military ruler Pervez Musharraf and three of his predecessor army chiefs in the nuclear transgressions he has been accused of. Khan has reportedly told investigators that Musharraf, and his predecessors Jehangir Karamat, Abdul Waheed Kakkar and Mirza Aslam Beg were among those who knew and approved of his dealings with North Korea and Iran. No “debriefings” can be complete unless all of them were brought in and questioned together, Khan has told investigators, according to accounts from Pakistan. Khan’s charge appears to be his counter-gambit against the country’s military establishment, which has sought to pin the proliferation charge solely on rogue scientists while absolving itself. Pakistani officials on Sunday told journalists that Khan had signed a 12-page confession but the scientist himself is being held incommunicado. Khan’s implication of Musharraf – revealed through his friends – is also potentially embarrassing for Washington, which on Monday indicated that it is ready to forgive and forget Pakistan’s nuclear transgressions and place its faith in General Musharraf. Despite widespread belief in the non-proliferation community that the entire Pakistani establishment, especially the military, was in cahoots with Khan’s activities, the Bush administration was backing Islamabad in its post-haste clean up. ''We welcome the Pakistani investigation,'' State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said at a briefing Monday, adding that ''It marks the sign of how seriously the government takes the commitments that President Musharraf has made to make sure that his nation is not a source of prohibited technologies for other countries.'' There was no sign that Washington was particularly perturbed at the gravity of the leaks or the official complicity that most experts believed in. Although there is speculation that Musharraf has cracked down on Khan and his cohorts at the behest of the United States, Boucher distanced the administration from the developments in Pakistan. ''They're the ones conducting the investigation, making any decisions as to what should happen to individuals or programs,'' he said. Asked if the U.S wanted Khan to be prosecuted, Boucher said ''It will be for Pakistan to decide what to do.'' Meantime, there is almost universal disbelief in the non-proliferation community that Khan could have acted alone without state support and complicity, particularly since the smuggling and leaks involved use of from the Pakistan Air Force. Khan commandeered American-supplied C-130 airplanes to fly ferry equipment to and from North Korea and Libya. Pervez Hoodbuoy, a physicist and Pakistan’s leading anti-nuclear activist, points out that Pakistan’s nuclear program has been ''squarely under army supervision'' since its inception. A multi-tiered security system was headed by a lieutenant general (now, two) with all nuclear installations and personnel kept under the tightest possible surveillance. ''In such an extreme security environment, it would be amazing to miss the travel abroad of senior scientists, engineers and administrators, their meetings with foreign nationals, and the transport and transfer of classified technical documents and components, if not whole centrifuges,'' Hoodbuoy wrote in a recent Washington Post commentary. The Full Lotastaani Government Establishment i.e. President Riff Raff, The Armed Forces- mainly the Army and a bit of the Air Force, Political as well as the Religious Leaders and the Bureaucrats have been fully involved since day one. A large part of Lotstaan’s financing its Nuclear Programme was by milking and bankrupting the Arab Owned Lotastaani run Bank of Crooks and Criminals International. Since the Lotastaani Nuclear Boys used the Lotastaani Air Forces C-13- Aircrafts to Ferry their “stuff” to N. Korea, Libya and other “Islamic” Destinations, Raff Raff & Co. are fully involved. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Feb 4 2004, 08:12 AM
A large part of Lotstaan’s financing its Nuclear Programme was by milking and bankrupting the Arab Owned Lotastaani run Bank of Crooks and Criminals International.
Don't forget drug money, fooling other muslim countries and our(USA) Tax money.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 4 2004, 11:52 AM,00050002.htm liar.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 4 2004, 04:42 PM ISLAMAWORST, 04 Feb: Dr A Q Khan has asked President Gen. Pervez Musharraf for forgiveness today for spreading weapons secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea, the government said. Abdul Qadeer Khan requested the meeting with Musharraf that was held in Rawalpindi, the government said in a statement. Khan requested he be forgiven in a ``mercy petition'' to Musharraf, considering the services he had rendered to Pakistan's nuclear program, the government said. The president told him the ``entire nation had been severely traumatized'' by the revelations of proliferation. Khan ``accepts full responsibility for all the proliferation activities, which were conducted by him during the period in which he was at the helm of affairs at Khan Research Laboratories,'' the government said. Khan founded the lab in the 1970s and headed it until retiring in 2001. Khan told state-run PTV in an interview that Musharraf had been ``extremely kind and understanding.'' ``We discussed this ongoing affair, the international campaign against Pakistan about nuclear matters,'' Khan said. ``I explained ... the background on what was happening and what had happened, and he appreciated the frankness with which I gave him the details.'' It was the first public statement by Khan since the investigation into the proliferation allegations began more than two months ago. ``Khan expressed his regrets and said that he is likely to make a statement to the nation,'' the government said. The statement said that the president would consult with the National Command Authority that controls Pakistan's nuclear assets before taking a final decision on Khan's plea for mercy. (Guardian) (Posted @ 15:20 PST) Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 4 2004, 11:10 PM WASHINGTON: Backed by the United States , Pakistan’s military leader Pervez Musharraf has evidently arrived at a deal with renegade nuclear scientist A Q Khan to bury the nuclear proliferation issue that has traumatised Pakistan and scandalised the world. After implicating Musharraf and the military in proliferation activities on Tuesday, Khan did an about turn on Wednesday and reportedly took full responsibility for spreading weapons secrets and begged the general for forgiveness. At least that is what the Pakistan government claimed. Khan "accepts full responsibility for all the proliferation activities which were conducted by him during the period in which he was at the helm of affairs at Khan Research Laboratories," a government statement said, adding that he had submitted a "mercy petition" to Musharraf, asking for clemency "considering the services he had rendered to Pakistan's national security." The president told him the "entire nation had been severely traumatized" by the revelations of proliferation, according to the statement. Musharraf has summoned a meeting of his National Command Authority to decide Khan’s petition, wire services reported. Khan was also seen in a brief interview on the state-run PTV saying he had requested Wednesday’s meeting with Musharraf and that the general had been "extremely kind and understanding." Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Feb 4 2004, 11:27 PM
I like Pakistani and its leaders, they can fool whole world, without any shame. They are telling "yes" we are pervert but hey! you still need us. Damn world we are Pakis!! Flush.gif
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 5 2004, 12:28 AM
So does this COnfession on TV affect Paki H&D ???? tv_feliz.gif tv_feliz.gif
Posted by: Mudy Feb 5 2004, 12:55 AM
Paki Junata will say that we lost battle but will win war. Strategically it is a victory for them, infact it is. Without having nuke, Iraq got roasted and here Pakis are rewarded everyday with my tax money, even they are the best in nuke proliferation business on earth and look how US State department tail is in their hand. Very smart people. mad.gif
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 5 2004, 01:09 AM
Mudy , it almost seems like there is no benefit in being a responsible nation anymore. The rouges like TSP , KSA get coddled . I think I am upset because I had this idea that US will have some sense of balance , if not a sense knowing right rom wrong. I can understand playing geo politics for economy , but if these nukes fall into the hands of Jihadis , we are all roast. 99% of pakistan is jihadi. I dont understand why US is playing politics. I hope the U.S.' s end game is to strip pakistan of it's weapons. blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif frusty.gif On the same note there is no question in my mind that every pakistani will be ashamed to walk in the world community. Just a bunch of Terrorist rats, who have been caught now.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 5 2004, 01:27 AM
had this idea that US will have some sense of balance ,
Are you dreaming ? biggrin.gif
I dont understand why US is playing politics
US's spoiled kid is just behaving naughty. Under US law you can just tell your kid when he misbehave, "look into my eyes" and if kid ignores just buy some candies, natando game and hope that he will create problem somewhere else, oh atleast not in my house. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Feb 5 2004, 06:14 AM by Gary D. Halbert February 3, 2004 IN THIS ISSUE: 1. Stratfor’s Latest Analysis On The War On Terror. 2. Northwest Pakistan Is Major Al Qaeda Stronghold. 3. War On Terror On Hold Until After The Election?
Posted by: Krishna Feb 5 2004, 08:34 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 4 2004, 01:57 PM)
I dont understand why US is playing politics[/QUOTE] US's spoiled kid is just behaving naughty. Under US law you can just tell your kid when he misbehave, "look into my eyes" and if kid ignores just buy some candies, natando game and hope that he will create problem somewhere else, oh atleast not in my house. biggrin.gif
Sometimes you get time out, and refusal to have access to certain luxuries like TV, phones, curfew times and what not. But after's back to square one, drugs (pun intended,) ho-ing for quick $$s and what nots!
Posted by: Mudy Feb 5 2004, 08:56 AM .. "The country's pride and our heroic scientists are being humiliated in the name of American pressure," the daily Nawa-i-Waqt wrote in an editorial this week ... Musharraf annoyed Islamic conservatives and radical Muslim groups by siding with Washington over the war in neighbouring Afghanistan and the broader "war on terror", which both view as an assault on their religion ..... Ms. Schaffer says Mr. Musharraf will now have a difficult task in restoring credibility in Pakistan's nuclear security. "The government of Pakistan is not eager to give the United States any more information than it absolutely has to about the whereabouts of its nuclear arsenal or the security arrangements because they're concerned that the United States might wish to take out their nuclear arsenal," he said. "So that finding a way of making tightened security truly credible to the United States might turn out to be fairly difficult." ....
Posted by: Mudy Feb 5 2004, 09:02 AM
Indian army chief expresses concern over nuclear proliferation biggrin.gif (Updated at 0100 PST) CALCUTTA: Indian army chief General Nirmal Chandra Vij has said that nuclear proliferation by Pakistani scientists was a threat to South Asia. Talking with newsmen in eastern city Calcutta, the Indian army chief expressed concern over nuclear weapons proliferation saying that such defective security arrangements for sensitive weapons system not good omen.
Posted by: Viren Feb 5 2004, 10:35 AM by Gary D. Halbert in Investors Insight
Posted by: Mudy Feb 6 2004, 03:09 AM
Vishal, use soft language for uncle, before they haunt us. I hope you got what I mean. biggrin.gif Pakistan will not allow the UN to inspect its nuclear programme, President Pervez Musharraf has said. Islamabad will co-operate with the UN atomic agency, the IAEA, but will not hand over any documents, he said. He was speaking after pardoning Abdul Qadeer Khan - the top scientist who admitted leaking nuclear weapons secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea. IAEA head Mohamed ElBaradei has said Mr Khan's revelations are only the "tip of the iceberg" of illegal trafficking. In Washington, the director of the CIA, George Tenet, said that the exposure of Pakistan's leading nuclear scientist followed a series of daring operations by American and British spies over several years. .......
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 6 2004, 06:08 AM WASHINGTON (AFP) – Nuclear secrets leaked by Pakistani nuclear scientist Dr Qadeer Khan were only exposed after US and British spies penetrated his proliferation network, CIA Director George Tenet said on Thursday. ‘Our spies penetrated the network through a series of daring operations over several years,’ Tenet revealed in a speech at Georgetown University to defend CIA’s data used to justify the Iraq war. ‘Through this unrelenting effort, we confirmed the network was delivering such things as illicit uranium centrifuges.’ Tenet spoke hours after Musharraf pardoned Qadeer. ]The father of Pakistan’s nuclear programme was ‘shaving years off the nuclear weapons development timelines of several states, including Libya,’ Tenet said. ‘Qadeer Khan and his network have been dealt a crushing blow and several of his senior officers are in custody,’ said Tenet. ‘Malaysian authorities have shut down one of the network’s largest plants. His network is now answering to the world for years of nuclear profiteering.’ CIA agents, working with British spies pieced together a picture of the network revealing subsidiaries, scientists, companies, agencies and manufacturing plants on three continents, he said. Cheers
Posted by: vishal Feb 6 2004, 11:56 PM
Mudy, what u mean?....i don't fear from bas*ard uncle...only from god. send me a message in private if u really fear from that rat's servant. unsure.gif
Posted by: Mudy Feb 7 2004, 12:11 AM
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 7 2004, 01:20 AM
All day yesterday I did not post , I was in mourning ,about this "Necaler saintest" fiasco not causing anymore damage to terroristan than it has. sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif . Did any of you hear or read the white house briefing? ...what a sham. Anyway..... I went to to see if there was any mention of this "necaler saintest" humiliation ...nope...none..... not a single thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Rats in denial
Posted by: Mudy Feb 7 2004, 01:33 AM
SSRamachandran, if you are refering to paki It is under pinned column, They are happy Mushy safed H&D and now they are celebrating, Mushy is herrow.
Posted by: rhytha Feb 7 2004, 01:35 AM
Guys, i don't know why everybody is throwing epileptic fits tongue.gif, and pissed of about unkil, nuclear profilaration does't affect us much, we already live in a nuclear neigbhourhood, chinese and paki's already have nukes and threaten us with it, so we should'nt care if other rouge states have them, they are a threat to unkil and don't have any direct threat to us, so let unkil take it and shove it up thier a** laugh.gif, who cares. Important thing is we should be always on our own, nobody is going to fight our war, we need to do it ourselves. smile.gif
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 7 2004, 02:05 AM
Mudy , call me ram need to type my full name. Viren.... Even if we live in a nuclearized neighbourhood , the real jihadhis do not have it yet...if they did , all of us would be roast
Posted by: Mudy Feb 7 2004, 05:57 AM
user posted image
Posted by: Mudy Feb 7 2004, 07:03 AM
Now Lok Sabha is disolved, whether India and Pakistan talk is still on. It should not.
Posted by: Mudy Feb 7 2004, 10:34 AM
The Weekend Australian February 7, 2004 Saturday HEADLINE: Pakistan's chilling sense of humour BYLINE: Greg Sheridan quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YOU'VE got to love the Pakistanis, they're the world's greatest jokers. This week, their top nuclear scientist, Dr AQ Khan, told the nation that he had sent nuclear weapons secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea, but that he had done it on his own. He was deeply sorry for this, but he acted entirely on his own and, get this, entirely in good faith, whatever that means. Pakistan's dictator, General Pervez Musharraf, made another broadcast confirming that Khan had acted alone and that no one from the army had helped him. This is pure farce and a grim theatre designed to offer the flimsiest fig leaf to what is probably the single greatest act of nuclear proliferation in the world's history. Stopping the spread of nuclear weapons has always been one of Australia's very highest foreign policy aims. It was one of the main reasons we participated in the war in Iraq. It is worth reflecting that Australia is, for a country of our size, uniquely incapable of withstanding any nuclear strike, as virtually all of our population is clustered in six isolated coastal cities. Six missiles and the Australian story is more or less over. That utter doom scenario has been made substantially more possible by the grotesque actions of Pakistan, which has engaged in some of the worst rogue state behaviour of any nation in our time. Musharraf, of course, immediately pardoned Khan. I don't think there is a single person anywhere in the world who believes that Khan proliferated nuclear technology without the complete connivance of the Pakistani military. And the key man in the military for a long, long time has been Musharraf himself. Khan's statement: "I also wish to clarify that there was never any kind of authorisation for these activities by the Government" is literally an insult to our intelligence. If for a single second anyone took the statement seriously it would mean that the Pakistani military and Government are the most incompetent in history, manifestly unfit to be near any nuclear weapon under any circumstances. But, of course, the Pakistani military is nothing like that incompetent. The Government knew exactly what he was doing at all times. Within Australia, we have not generally realised just what a profound crisis the world faces in Pakistan. On the face of this week's revelations, Pakistan has engaged in far worse nuclear proliferation than North Korea has ever dreamed of. Yet the US, under both Clinton and Bush, has kept the prospect of military action against North Korea on the table to deter it from actually going into full scale nuclear weapon production and possibly exporting this to other nations. We know now that Pakistan has actually done what the US, and the rest of us, only fear what the North Koreans might do. The whole future of Pakistan is truly in play. Musharraf, despite the shocking revelations of this week, is probably the least bad alternative as a leader for Pakistan at the moment. But no one knows whether his recent willingness to compromise and make peace with India, much less his promise to co-operate in preventing nuclear proliferation in the future, are a genuine strategic change of heart by Pakistan or just another tactical feint. The Americans bear a fair degree of indirect responsibility for this state of affairs. They pioneered the jihad technique for attacking the Soviets in Afghanistan, which Pakistan now uses against India in Kashmir and which has become an uncontrollable, worldwide movement. Now the US, and Australia, are caught in a horrible bind. ... I heard an American this week describe Pakistan as the scariest place on Earth. He was right about that.
Posted by: SSRamachandran Feb 7 2004, 12:34 PM
mudy , where did you get that cartoon from?
Posted by: Mudy Feb 7 2004, 12:41 PM
Paki Dung daily newspaper.
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 7 2004, 03:22 PM
I know that the so-called Bush’s acceptance of Riff Raff’s explanation and then Bush sanctioning the pardon of Al Qaeeda Khan is very disconcerting to say the least. However, this leads me to the “phollowing two bits” : Bush is not allowed to behave as the Idiot he is supposed to be as his “Cabinet” although comprising of various “Texan Cowboys” does have a number of Intelligent “Members”. As such, IMO, there has been a Trade off between “Lotastaani” Riff Raff and “Cowboy” Bush. Al Qaeeda Khan had to be pardoned to maintain some semblance of Unity and Integrity of Lotastaan as prosecuting would let the Cat out of the Bag and Riff Raff and Co would stand impeached leading to some Totally Phundamental Islamic Terrorist Mujahideen Jehadi Jernail from the Lotastaani Army. So in exchange for brushing the whole episode under the carpe what has the You Knighted especially Bush got out of saving Riff Raff in the Al Qaeeda Khan Affair? May be you have already guessed it : The Lotastaani Nukes. Now I believe, hope not mistaken, that the Lotastaani Nukes have been “transported” into the Safe Custody of the You Knighted States, Whilst the major part of the Lotastani Nukes – if not all – have been transported to You Knighted States safe custody have a few slipped through the net and have found a way to the Islamic Terrorists? This is what is going to keep us awake at Night. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 7 2004, 06:44 PM As President Musharraf runs into increasing flak over his handling of the A.Q. Khan affair, and more murky details emerge about the haemorrhaging of nuclear secrets, we are left to ponder yet again over individual greed. Although many people who had practically deified Dr Khan now insist that the scientist was merely carrying out state policy when he handed over nuclear blueprints and equipment to Iran, Libya and North Korea, the sordid fact is that he profited mightily by the transactions. While I was aware of some of his Islamabad properties, I had no idea that Dr Khan's real estate interests extended to places as far flung as Timbuktu. Indeed, so keen was he to project Pakistan that apparently he had furniture from the country flown to Mali in PAF C-130s. Now it is difficult to imagine how this could have been done without the armed forces being aware of these brazen deals. Indeed, Musharraf's widely anticipated pardon for this errant scientist is neither in recognition of his services in developing Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, nor from fear of the mullahs who are threatening to take to the streets in protest against Khan's 'humiliation'. The reality is that if the erstwhile boss of the KRL were to be put on trial, he would inevitably finger a number of people in and out of uniform, as well as spilling the beans about other embarrassing secrets. Deciding that these skeletons are far better locked in their present cupboard, Musharraf is engaging in desperate damage-control measures, and these call for bottling up the crisis as soon as possible. While the Americans are deeply unhappy about letting A.Q. Khan off the hook, they are caught over a barrel: if they put too much pressure on Musharraf to prosecute the scientist, they will be undermining him at a time they need him in their war on terror, as well as wanting him to continue his peace efforts with India. A weakened Musharraf will be able to deliver on neither front. As it is, he is under huge pressure from the mullahs as well as centrists who regard A.Q. Khan as a hero. In an investigative article called 'Cold Test' published in the New Yorker just over a year ago, Seymour Hersh quotes CIA sources as reporting that between 1997 and 2002, A.Q. Khan visited North Korea no fewer than 19 times. Since that inhospitable country is not known as a tourist resort, one can only wonder what our home-grown Oppenheimer was doing there with such frequency. And it is inconceivable that KRL's (military) guardians had no idea of his trips. The weapons research labs at Kahuta are the country's most tightly protected facilities, and it beggars belief to accept the official version that the army had no idea what was happening there. I recall an incident in the mid-eighties when the French ambassador (no less) was beaten up by strapping men in tell-tale white shalwar kameez as he and a deputy stopped their car near the KRL fence. Despite protests, the matter was hushed up. So tight is the security there that even elected prime ministers were not allowed entry: when Benazir Bhutto asked Gen Aslam Beg, the then army chief, to arrange a visit, she was apparently told that "briefings at Kahuta were on a need-to-know basis, and she currently had no need to know." The reason for the North Korea connection is clear: both impoverished countries entered into a straight trade that involved Pyongyang's missile technology for Islamabad's design for centrifuges used in enriching uranium to weapons-grade purity. The KRL fingerprints were detected by American agents and IAEA inspectors at North Korea's reactor and reported at the time. But Islamabad came out with its usual denials, and the matter was not properly investigated. Another clue to our nuclear proliferation was contained in the 12,000- page dossier Saddam Hussein presented to the UN in compliance with Security Council resolution 1441 which called for full disclosure of Iraq's past WMD programmes. Buried in this mountain of papers was a memo from an Iraqi secret agent in Dubai who reported being contacted by a person who purported to represent A.Q. Khan and offered to sell nuclear secrets to Iraq. Although nothing came of this approach, this odd incident was reported at the time and routinely denied in our usual knee-jerk fashion. Had the government been serious about halting proliferation, there should have been an inquiry into the allegation then and there. Many Pakistanis are convinced that the unmasking of A.Q. Khan is part of some vast conspiracy against Pakistan's nuclear programme. The truth is that the international community has been terrified of atomic weapons falling into irresponsible hands. Successive Pakistani governments have vowed that its programme was fully safeguarded, and the leadership has a foolproof system of command and control in place. To address international concerns, official spokesmen from the very highest level have solemnly assured the world that there was no possibility of any proliferation taking place from Pakistani labs. Now that A.Q. Khan has himself confessed to flogging everything that wasn't nailed down at Kahuta, Pakistan is left - yet again - with egg on its face. After this scandal, the world will ask who else was on A.Q. Khan's list of clients: Osama bin Laden? Mullah Omar? Fortunately for Pakistan, our current value to Washington in its 'war on terror' outweighs our liability as the world's champion proliferators. And equally fortunately, Iran and Libya were a long way from achieving significant enrichment of uranium based on our technology. However, this is not true of North Korea which has made rapid progress. Should the crisis on the Korean peninsula escalate to the point where Pyongyang actually threatens to use its small arsenal of atomic weapons, A.Q. Khan's global marketing activities could well return to haunt us. Despite the seriousness of A.Q. Khan's televised mea culpa and its implications for Pakistan, many people - and not just those in government - are still in deep denial. They feel Pakistan is being unfairly targeted, and moan about how other countries like Israel indulged in secret and illicit purchases to develop their nuclear weapons. The problem is that more and more Pakistan is viewed as an irresponsible state that cannot be trusted with an atomic arsenal. And after this latest example of cupidity and dissembling at the highest level, who can blame our critics? Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 7 2004, 10:04 PM Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan’s top nuclear scientist and the father of the “Islamic bomb”, has confessed to selling nuclear materials to Iran, North Korea and Libya. As proliferation scandals go, this one is hard to beat AFTER years of bare-faced denials, the shocking truth, or at least as much of it as Pakistan’s government will admit to in public, has now come out. On Wednesday February 4th, after days of questioning, the country’s top nuclear scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, confessed to the president, General Pervez Musharraf, and then publicly, that he was guilty of trafficking nuclear materials to Iran, North Korea and Libya. He also submitted a plea for clemency, and the cabinet recommended a pardon, which duly came on Thursday. For in spite of the damage done to Pakistan’s reputation by the deliberate spreading of bomb-related technology, any attempt to hold Mr Khan accountable for what are claimed to be his private proliferation activities would be fraught with great risk for General Musharraf. Mr Khan is still considered by many Pakistanis a national hero for fathering the “Islamic bomb”. He has also let it be known that he would have plenty of dirt to throw back at senior government and military figures if they tried to wash their hands of him completely and put him on trial. As it is, Mr Khan’s admissions so far are hair-raising enough. It all started, he claims, in 1989 with Iran, before the two countries fell out over which side to back in the civil war in Afghanistan. Indeed, the trail of evidence that led Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency to Mr Khan’s door, and has had one of his close colleagues, Mohammed Farooq, in detention since November, begins with names of suppliers given under diplomatic duress to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN’s nuclear watchdog, by Iran last October. Caught cheating itself last year, Iran blamed its suppliers for traces of bomb-usable highly enriched uranium found by IAEA inspectors on its secretly imported centrifuge machines. Names were handed on to Pakistan, which is still investigating financial links, some through the failed Bank of Credit and Commerce International, (aka The Bank of Crooks and Crimnals International)that could reveal more of what its nuclear freelancers (about a dozen scientists and military folk have been questioned so far) were up to. Though suspicions had attached to Mr Khan for years, Pakistan’s government had always denied any wrongdoing. But the evidence from the IAEA is now unignorable. More of it came out after a shipment of centrifuge parts for uranium enrichment was intercepted on its way to Libya, hastening the surprise decision last December by that country’s leader, Colonel Muammar Qaddafi, to confess to a hidden nuclear programme of his own. The IAEA’s chief, Mohamed ElBaradei, was taken aback at how much equipment and technology Libya had amassed; and all of it from what he has called a veritable Wal-Mart of black-market proliferation. Libya not only had names of contacts to find answers to after-sales scientific questions, but also the blueprint for a nuclear warhead. The most sensitive materials, parts and documents have now been flown to America for safekeeping. Some, including the bomb design, are thought to have come directly from Pakistan. The IAEA's inspectors would doubtless like to take a closer look at the country's nuclear programme, but on Thursday the government in Islamabad said it would not hand over any documents. Though the network of middlemen and companies involved spans Europe, the Middle East, Asia and South Africa, Pakistan’s nuclear suspects are thought to have been at the centre of it. The nuclear programme was supposed to be under close military control. General Musharraf insists there was no official involvement, either now or in the past, in any of these transactions, which, he claims, were motivated by personal greed (official tales of Mr Khan’s national heroism have now given way to tales of his great personal wealth and many villas). The covert nature of Pakistan’s own bomb project, the general claims, left the scientists with too much autonomy, which they abused. But were they really just in it by themselves, for themselves? Saudi Arabia and Libya were long thought to have financed Pakistan’s nuclear programme. Did that not qualify Libya for a bit of assistance in the other direction? Meanwhile North Korea appears to have got help with its enrichment efforts (which it now denies), and possibly also with warhead design, in return for supplying Pakistan with missile technology: working together on weaponisation would make sense, given that Pakistan’s Ghauri missile is a barely disguised version of North Korea’s Nodong rocket. All this smacks of official involvement at the highest levels. For his part, Mr Khan may also not be telling the whole truth. He has reportedly contended in private that his proliferation activities had the support of two former army chiefs, General Aslam Beg and General Jehangir Karamat, though that has yet to appear in any official account. He also claims all such proliferation activities ended in the 1990s, conveniently before General Musharraf set up a National Command Authority over the nuclear programme in 2002 and promised that all proliferation concerns had now been addressed. Yet how then to account for centrifuge deliveries intercepted on their way to North Korea and Libya last year? General Musharraf’s problems do not end there. Many Pakistanis do not want to see Mr Khan disgraced or else want to see the investigation extended to any senior military figures involved too. Mr Khan has said he acted to deflect western attention from Pakistan’s own nuclear programme (in 1990 America had cut off all military aid to Pakistan because of its then covert bomb-building) and, in the case of Libya and Iran, as a gesture of support for two fellow Muslim countries. The Islamist opposition in Pakistan has since called for a national strike to protest at Mr Khan’s humiliation. Many accuse the general of merely caving in to American pressure. Late last year General Musharraf survived two assassination attempts that were blamed on religious extremists, possibly in collusion with military or intelligence insiders. Punishing Mr Khan would not help with would-be assailants. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 8 2004, 01:35 AM WASHINGTON: The United States has been working secretly with Pakistan to protect its nuclear weapons from falling in the hands of terrorists or rogue commanders, NBC Television reported on Friday. According to the Network, a group of American nuclear experts called the US Liaison Committee is "spending millions to safeguard Pakistan's more than 40 nuclear weapons." They meet at least every two months and are helping Pakistan develop state-of-the-art security — including secret authorization codes for the arsenal. In effect, this would mean the US has virtually taken control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, one reason why Bush administration officials seem to be so sanguine, rather than agitated, about Pakistan's proliferation activities exposed recently. Flush.gif Asked if the US was not sending a wrong message to proliferators around the world with its blasé attitude to developments in Pakistan, especially the pardoning of A Q Khan, Secretary of State Colin Powell's smug response was "Well, the biggest is now gone, so I think that is a remarkable success… so we don't have to worry about proliferation from Khan or his network." Powell said he expected to be talking to Musharraf over the next several days "to make sure that there is a full understanding of what the Khan network has done over the years so that there are no remnants of it left, and then there's no possibility of further proliferating activities coming out of that network." So folks now Lotastaan is Nuke Nood pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Feb 8 2004, 02:10 AM
So folks now Lotastaan is Nuke Nood
Too little, they still have capability of dirty bomb. World will be safe when whole infrastructure is removed from Pakistan. Having nuke, they need method to use it. But for dirty nuke bomb, they just need PIA to US or Eurpoe coast. Which is scary. If people on earth looking for sound sleep, they should remove whole infrastructure from Pakistan, along with all existing enriched material. I am still scared and worried like hell and everyone should.
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 8 2004, 02:22 AM WASHINGTON: Libya paid $50 million to purchase nuclear blueprints from dealers who were part of the AQ Khan network, a report in the New York Times said on Friday. “Those blueprints, along with the capability to make enriched uranium, could have given the Libyans all the elements they needed to make a nuclear bomb. What the Libyans purchased, in the words of an American weapons expert who has reviewed the programme in detail, was both the kitchen equipment ‘and the recipes,’” according to the report. The designs flown out of Libya and now in US possession closely resemble the warheads that China tested in the late 1960s and passed on to Pakistan decades ago. There is no evidence that the Libyans actually produced the warheads, much less sufficient nuclear fuel. According to American and European investigators, the network that supplied Libya was enormously complex, and not all the paths led directly back to the Khan Research Laboratories. Centrifuge parts were made in Malaysia, and other parts were obtained in Germany and Japan. The Japanese last year seized critical equipment headed for North Korea, though they never announced it. But both the centrifuge designs and the bomb designs seized in Libya appear to have come from the same country, according to the experts who have reviewed them. —Khalid Hasan So who got the USD 50 Million – of course the Generals and Al Qaeeda Khan. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 8 2004, 02:39 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Feb 8 2004, 02:10 AM)
Too little, they still have capability of dirty bomb. World will be safe when whole infrastructure is removed from Pakistan. Having nuke, they need method to use it. But for dirty nuke bomb, they just need PIA to US or Eurpoe coast. Which is scary. If people on earth looking for sound sleep, they should remove whole infrastructure from Pakistan, along with all existing enriched material. I am still scared and worried like hell and everyone should.
Mudy : 1. After seeing the Lotastaani Nuclear Proliferation Drama unfold it would be naïve to believe that the Lotastaanis have not already manufactured – put together a couple of Dirty Bombs. 2. As such IMO there are already a couple of Dirty Bombs in the Lotastaani Diplomatic Establishments in India, UK and the You Knighted States. 3. These have already been transported either as Diplomatic Baggage over the last Decade or by Captains of PIA Aircraft – The Captain of a National Air Line is usually used as a Diplomatic Courier for carrying Diplomatic Bags. As you are aware Diplomatic Bags or Cases or Cartons etc. are never inspected. 4. The only solution is for every Lotastaani and other Islamic (such as Said Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya and a few more) Diplomatic Missions in All Countries be inspected for Dirty Bombs.Realistically speaking this is not possible As such Welcome to the Club of Scared and Worried like Hell Suffering from Loss of Sleep. Valium, Mogadone and Tamazipan are the answer. Or Counting Sheep furious.gif Cheers
Posted by: Reggie Feb 8 2004, 03:04 AM
The designs flown out of Libya and now in US possession closely resemble the warheads that China tested in the late 1960s and passed on to Pakistan decades ago
"passed on to?" ?? Proliferated would be more like it!
Posted by: Mudy Feb 8 2004, 03:09 AM
US media is so sensitive about China's feeling and tantrums that they will not use Proliferated word, otherwise China will ask Powell to say sorry again,holding his ears in public. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 8 2004, 05:53 AM AMMAN: Three Pakistanis have been caught red-handed in Jordan trying to pass on 20 million dollars worth of counterfeit US banknotes, the al-Rai newspaper said on Saturday. One of the Pakistanis, who were identified only by their initials, had contacted a Jordanian who promised to handle the 20 million dollars, the pro-government paper said. The trio was arrested with the fake cash in a sting set up by the kingdom’s anti-corruption squad following a tip-off from their Jordanian contact. The Pakistanis, aged 26, 27 and 36, are to appear before the state security court. —AFP Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Feb 8 2004, 09:47 AM by B.Raman
Posted by: Peregrine Feb 8 2004, 03:28 PM Old but Interesting and long Article. Very easy to get Registered. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Feb 8 2004, 06:16 PM
Mudy, New Thread Plz
Posted by: rhytha Feb 8 2004, 06:17 PM

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