India Forum Archives
Tuesday, December 09, 2003
  Pakistan, The Terrorist State
Posted by: Mudy Dec 9 2003, 11:45 AM
Old thread is in Trash can
The following links are background information on Pakistan: The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan MUSHARRAF'S US VISIT: FACTS TO KNOW The Terrorist swamp that is Pakistan - Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha which is a link to this great article: On the Frontier of Apocalypse by Christopher Hitchens (Nuclear Enabler - Pakistan today is the most dangerous place on Earth by Jim Hoagland) "Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency" - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk (This link is to a book called Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. It is a collection of essays by Paks about Pak society and remains one of the finest critiques about Pakistan available on the net. ) Seymour Hersh Interview This is a list of Pakistani businesses that may be aiding and funding terror against India and other countries. Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan Most wanted list requested by India/List of terrorist sheltered by Pakistan
Posted by: rhytha Dec 9 2003, 09:47 PM
Three women thieves arrested by CIA ROTFL.gif LAHORE: A Crimes Investigation Agency (CIA) team on Monday arrested three ladies and a man involved in several incidents of snatching handbags from women in beauty parlours and shopping centres. The police recovered gold ornaments weighing 1 kilogram, 15 purses, $1,700 and two mobile phones from them. The accused confessed to 50 incidents in various parts of Lahore. The four arrested were the gang leader Shabnam, alias Shaboo, her sisters-in-law Nazia and Amina and her father Muhammad Sarwar. According to a police official, two women and a man, Rubina, Iram and Salman, were arrested five years ago for robbery at a jeweller’s shop in Liberty Market. “They were released on bail, but then they didn’t appear in court and the court declared them proclaimed offenders,” the policeman said. He said the CIA team was tracing them and learned that the gang was headed by Shabnam and Sarwar and they arrested them on Monday. 11 cases were registered against them with various police stations. —Staff Report tv_feliz.gif[/SIZE]
Posted by: Mudy Dec 9 2003, 10:41 PM
Oh yes, now they want to transport weapons and illegal currency till Delhi K J M Varma in Islamabad | December 09, 2003 19:00 IST Last Updated: December 09, 2003 20:30 IST Pakistan on Tuesday said it will propose extension of the Samjhauta Express service to New Delhi during the parleys next week with India on resumption of rail links. Before it was stopped following the December 2001 attack on Indian Parliament, Samjhauta Express used to run between Lahore in Pakistan and Attari in Punjab. "It is hoped that Pakistan railway team, which is scheduled to hold talks with their Indian counterparts will return successful," Pakistan Foreign Minister Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri told a seminar in Islamabad on 'Conflict Resolution and Regional Co-operation in South Asia.' The railway officials of both sides are expected to finalise the schedule to resume the service. A direct communication link between coast guards of the two countries is also under consideration, Kasuri said. Kasuri said the process of confidence building measures between India and Pakistan must continue for durable peace and stability in South Asia. But, he added, the international community has to play its role in promoting peace and security in the region. Calling for "serious and scrupulous" introspection to determine a course to improve relations, he said: "All outstanding issues should be addressed with statesmanship so that we can move ahead towards a cooperative and prosperous future for the people of the two countries." Kasuri said Pakistan is pleased that India has responded favourably to its proposal for ceasefire along the Line if Control. [/color]
Posted by: Mudy Dec 10 2003, 12:49 AM
Paki Army back to business,00050002.htm Agence France-Presse Muzaffarabad (PoK), December 9 The fencing of the de facto border in disputed Kashmir by New Delhi could setback the unfolding peace process between India and Pakistan, a European parliamentary delegation was told by Pakistan's military on Tuesday. "If India does not discontinue fencing of the Line of Control it may cause a setback to the efforts for peace," local commander Brigadier Iftikhar Ali Khan told the visiting seven-member delegation in the town of Chakothi, some 60 km south of Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. The delegation arrived in PoK on Monday. The group visited a Kashmiri refugee camp on the outskirts of the state capital the same day and on Tuesday was flown to Chakothi which saw heavy losses before the November 26 ceasefire. "Fencing of the LoC is a violation of United Nations Security Council resolutions on Kashmir as well as the Karachi Agreement (between India and Pakistan)," Khan told the delegation, adding that Pakistani troops were "watching the situation patiently." "The international community should force India to respect the agreements." The Indian Army says it is fencing a 460-km stretch of the disputed border to prevent Islamic rebels from crossing into its zone of the divided state. Khan briefed the delegation on the figures of physical and material losses caused by cross border bombardment in Pakistani Kashmir before the ceasefire that went into effect. After the recent truce "the situation on LoC is completely peaceful and there has been no ceasefire violations by either side," he said. Khan said the people along the LoC, who were badly suffering for the past several years, had heaved a sigh of relief at the ceasefire. "Undoubtedly, the ceasefire has brought great relief and joy for them," he said. The EU delegation plans to visit Indian-controlled Kashmir early next year.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 10 2003, 03:02 AM By Irfan Husain The recent flap about the news that India is rehabilitating and upgrading an air base in Tajikistan concentrated minds briefly on the growing strategic threat to Pakistan. Although the Tajik government has denied that the agreement with India is aimed at Pakistan, the presence of Indian air force and army personnel at Farkhor has rung alarm bells at GHQ. In fact, these bells have been ringing for quite some time. Consider the following: * The agreement between India and Israel to procure Phalcon AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System) aircraft. Apart from the massive force-multiplication effect this system provides, it is significant that Washington has approved the deal when it had earlier put its foot down on a similar sale to China. Pakistan has threatened to buy equivalent aircraft, but the fact is that apart from the US, Israel and Russia, nobody else manufactures them. * India is committed to spend $250 million in Afghanistan on the reconstruction of Afghanistan. This kind of money buys a lot of influence in Kabul, specially when the Karzai government is suspicious of Pakistani intentions and routinely accuses it of giving aid and shelter to the Taliban who continue to launch attacks in the border areas from sanctuaries located on Pakistani soil. * Iran has signed an agreement with India giving its navy the use of its port at Bander Abbas in case of war with Pakistan. * India currently has a $10 billion arms acquisition programme under which it is procuring, among other items, a Russian aircraft carrier with up to 66 Mig-29 fighters; 50 SU-30 fighters; three guided missile frigates; and 200 cruise missiles. Many other items are on the Indian shopping list. * Our neighbour is building a satellite with a 2.5 meter resolution. Equipment for this spy satellite will be procured from Israel. * China and India held an unprecedented joint naval exercise recently. More alarming than these specific items and agreements and the growing strategic imbalance these imply for Pakistan is the increasing isolation we face today. Traditional friends and allies like Iran and China are rapidly improving ties with India, and despite the soothing words that follow these steps, the fact is that many of these developments have been to our detriment. Our generals' pipedreams of 'strategic depth' in Afghanistan and Central Asia went up in smoke long ago. A major reason for the Soviet Union's collapse is that at the end of the day, it simply could not match American developments and spending on defence. Its inefficient economy finally collapsed under the pressure of generating the funds necessary for the Soviets to match the Pentagon's massive and continuing outlays. In short, the USSR was out-spent by its superpower rival. Before 9/11, there was genuine and well-founded concern that Pakistan would default on its international obligations, but thanks to the infusion of dollars that followed the attacks on the Twin Towers, the economy is afloat again, if scarcely buoyant. However, the impressive speed at which the Indian economy is expanding means that our neighbour will be able to easily out-spend us well into the foreseeable future. And it is not just the size of the Indian economy that is growing; its composition is also changing. Investment in high-tech fields is providing a major boost: according to Arun Shourie, the Indian minister for disinvestment, 100 of the Fortune 500 companies now have R & D operations in India. Not one of them has invested in research in Pakistan. In a speech made last year, he also informed his audience that Rover of Britain had entered into an agreement to market 100,000 Indian cars manufactured by Tata under its label in Europe. These random snippets of information are not intended to cause alarm and despondency. The idea is to show the direction our neighbour is heading, and to point out a simple fact: Pakistan simply cannot compete with India in the arena of economics. From this flows the obvious conclusion that we cannot match Indian expenditure on defence. Forget parity: we cannot even maintain our traditional posture of minimum deterrence for very long at the rate at which the strategic balance is shifting against us. Another doctrine drummed into our young men from the day they enter the armed forces is that one Muslim soldier can take on ten Hindus. Apart from overlooking the inconvenient fact that a large number of Muslims proudly wear Indian uniforms, modern warfare is mostly about high-tech weapons launched from a distance to devastating effect. If nothing else, the lesson we ought to have learned from the American campaign of 'shock and awe' in Iraq is that courage is no substitute for cruise missiles. War games played out in America have indicated time after time that an Indian thrust into Pakistan would succeed in cutting the country in two within days, leaving our leaders little option but to go nuclear. This is a suicidal path nobody in his right mind should even contemplate. The Indian retaliation and the ensuing radiation will obliterate much of Pakistan. The fact that leaders on both sides of the border have been rattling their nuclear sabres is an indication of what passes for leadership in our part of the world. Whenever I have discussed this topic with friends, they have agreed with the facts, but then have stepped back from accepting the inescapable conclusion: we cannot allow Kashmir to hold us hostage forever. Both internally and externally, this single dispute has damaged our core interests more than anything else these last 55 years. Understandably, it is difficult for the politicians and generals to undo a policy they have been touting for decades. But common sense dictates that there are few options. We must accept the reality and tackle the real issues of poverty and ignorance that confront us which the successive governments have been unable to address largely because of lack of resources.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 10 2003, 03:33 AM
The Travails of Lotastaani Rice (This time there is no complaint that it is “mit mice schidt mixt") : Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 10 2003, 07:37 AM Posted Wed, 10 Dec 2003 Pakistan's hardline religious parties announced on Tuesday a campaign of mass rallies starting next week to oust the government of President Pervez Musharraf over his refusal to drop sweeping self-appointed powers. "Our mass movement will begin on December 18 and will continue until the rule of General Musharraf ends and the constitution is restored in its original form," Liaqat Balock of the Islamic-party alliance Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) told a media conference. The Islamists along with secular opposition parties have been demanding all year that Musharraf submit to parliament changes he made to the constitution, which empower him to sack the legislature and legitimise a political role for the military. Musharraf, also the country's army chief, seized power in an army coup in 1999 and appointed himself president in June 2001. Just months ahead of his promised restoration of democracy through October 2002 polls, he altered the 1971 constitution, ignoring requirements for changes to be debated and ratified by parliaments. Opposition parties also want Musharraf to quit the army and undergo a standard presidential election. Musharraf's refusal to set a date for quitting the army has set back months of efforts to find a compromise between the ruling pro-Musharraf coalition and the Islamists. AFP
Posted by: Mudy Dec 10 2003, 10:07 PM
Peace process,00050002.htm Press Trust of India Islamabad, December 10 In the midst of major peace initiatives, Pakistan has served notice to India asking it to stop work by December 31 on Baglihar hydropower project being built on the river Chenab in Jammu and Kashmir, claiming it violated the 1960 Indus Water Treaty. The notice by Pakistan asked New Delhi last week to stop construction of the project and settle the dispute by December 31, failing which Pakistan reserved the right to call for international arbitration under the aegis of World Bank, which facilitated the 1960 Water Treaty between the two countries. Indian High Commission officials said a letter in this regard has been sent by the Pakistan Foreign Office last week. The notice by Pakistan followed a recent visit made by a team of Pakistani officials to Baglihar project after clearance from India. Significantly Pakistan has fixed the December 31 deadline, which was close to SAARC summit scheduled to be held from January 4 to 6. The issue was expected to figure in the meetings between Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and Pakistan Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali, if a one-to-one meeting takes place to discuss the recent peace initiatives, including prevailing ceasefire along the LoC and a host of other confidence building measures such as resumption of air-links.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 10 2003, 10:12 PM
Financial Times (London,England) December 10, 2003, Wednesday London Edition 1 HEADLINE: Shoring up the Kashmir truce: SELIG HARRISON: Under American and Chinese pressure, Pakistan has responded to recent Indian peace initiatives with hopeful conciliatory steps that have temporarily eased tensions in embattled Kashmir. But the present lull in fighting is likely to endure only if Washington and Beijing keep up their pressure and if New Delhi grants increased autonomy to Kashmir in forthcoming negotiations with insurgent leaders. The most important Pakistani move was a unilateral ceasefire in Kashmir that India quickly accepted. Although a welcome opening gambit, the ceasefire covers only the truce line that separates Indian and Pakistani forces. Islamabad is still sending Pakistani guerrillas across the line into Indian-held areas of Kashmir. To avoid a resumption of fighting on the truce line, Pakistan would have to get its surrogates in Kashmir to negotiate a suspension of hostilities with Indian forces. This would be a significant reversal of past policy. As well as extending the ceasefire from the truce line to Indian-held Kashmir as a whole, Islamabad should dismantle the infrastructure of base camps and communication centres on the Pakistan side of the line. Otherwise the existing ceasefire will increasingly be viewed by India as a ruse to facilitate stepped-up insurgent operations in spring when Himalayan snows melt. The ceasefire could quickly break down if Islamabad uses it to harass Indian forces now seeking to build a 304-mile fence to block infiltration along a crucial sector of the ceasefire line, where the mountain passes are particularly difficult to patrol. The Dollars 2.4bn (Pounds 1.4bn) fence project, almost as ambitious as Ariel Sharon's, has been proceeding slowly in the face of Pakistani artillery barrages, and a test of the ceasefire will be whether Islamabad permits construction work to continue. The most encouraging evidence of a change in Pakistan's stance in Kashmir has come in recent statements indicating a readiness to discuss India's proposal for a bus service between Srinagar, capital of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, and Muzzafarabad, the capital of Pakistan-controlled Azad Kashmir, one of the main planks in a 15-point peace plan put forward by New Delhi in October. Another welcome gesture was Pakistan's restoration of air service between the two countries last week. It is now up to India to promote a continued relaxation of tensions in Kashmir by showing a flexible posture in forthcoming negotiations between L.K. Advani, deputy prime minister, and leaders of Hurriyat, an umbrella organisation of insurgent groups. By offering greater autonomy and increased economic aid, New Delhi could strengthen moderate Hurriyat leaders and set the stage for a suspension of hostilities between Indian forces and most insurgent groups. When India made its October peace proposal, Pakistan balked. Then the US began to increase pressure on Islamabad, angered not only by its intransigence towards India but also by President Pervez Musharraf's failure to curb Islamic extremist groups in Pakistan that are fuelling the Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan and even helping al-Qaeda. Many have long-standing links to hard-line elements in his own intelligence agencies. The Bush administration signalled its displeasure by leaking Defence Intelligence Agency documents showing links between Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence (ISI) and al-Qaeda. Two weeks ago the US ambassador to Pakistan, pointing to a supposed ban on Islamic extremist groups, said these groups were operating under new names, often with the same leaders, and urged Gen Musharraf to "enhance" his efforts to stop them sending fighters to Kashmir. During his recent visit to China, Gen Musharraf was startled when the Chinese presented evidence that Pakistani-sponsored insurgent groups based in Kashmir and Afghanistan were training Uighur separatists fighting Chinese rule in Sinkiang. On his return, he told Pakistani journalists it was time to correct the "negative perceptions" of Pakistan abroad. Soon after this, he announced the Kashmir ceasefire. President George W. Bush promised Gen Musharraf Dollars 3bn more in economic and military aid when he visited Camp David last June, on top of earlier US grants and loans totalling Dollars 1.5bn, and Dollars 4bn in debt rescheduling by a US-led aid consortium. Half of this upgraded assistance is to be military aid, which gives the US powerful new leverage in dealing with the Pakistani leader. So far Mr Bush has not had to use this leverage but he should not hesitate to do so if it should prove necessary to keep the Kashmir peace process going. It would be the ultimate folly to pour new military hardware into Pakistan if it continues to support the Kashmir insurgency, risking another war with India that could all too easily go nuclear.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 11 2003, 02:36 AM Pakistan studies programme at major think tank WASHINGTON: Thanks to a new financial arrangement made by a Europe-based Pakistani millionaire, the Woodrow Wilson Centre, one of the country’s leading research institutes and think tanks, is creating a Pakistan studies programme next year. A different Pakistani scholar will spend nine months every year to carry out research on a subject of interest to Pakistan. This was stated by the director of the Centre’s South Asia programme, Robert Hathaway, on Monday in his introductory remarks to a lecture delivered by National Human Development Foundation Chairman Dr Nasim Ashraf, who is currently on an official visit here. —Khalid Hasan
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 11 2003, 04:19 AM Apropos the article "What should the minorities do" written by Mr M B Naqvi and appearing in The News on November 26, 2003 on page 7. The News deeply regrets for inadvertently including the Ahmedis among Muslims as a sect, whereas The News fully subscribes to the belief that Ahmedis are out of the pale of Islam and are not Muslims as declared by the National Assembly by an act. The News expresses its deepest apologies for having hurt the feelings of its readers and assures that due action is in process against the staff responsible for this grave error. - Editor Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 11 2003, 01:35 PM ISLAMABAD, Dec 10: Two senior officials of Khan Research Laboratories (KRL) have gone missing under mysterious circumstances, sources in the KRL told Dawn on Wednesday. The sources said director general Dr Yasin Chohan and director laboratories Dr Farooq were missing for the last one week. Responding to a query in this regard, a foreign office spokesman said that people associated with sensitive programmes in Pakistan "are governed by a stringent personnel dependability and debrief programme. This is a normal practice, especially in nuclear weapons states. These people are aware of their responsibilities in terms of their efficiency and conduct." He said under the programme, individuals may have to undergo debriefing sessions and that "the matter referred to falls within the scope of this practice". The official added that as for Iran, there are reports about many sources from where Iran could have obtained nuclear technology, including several Western companies and individuals. The focus should be on checking out with those sources. "We, for our part, are simply carrying out our own procedures," he said. Meanwhile, it was learnt that director laboratories Dr Farooq used to be very close to the founder of the KRL Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan and was known as a "King" of the laboratories. Nobody in the Khan Research Laboratories exactly knew about the whereabouts of the two scientists and it is believed that they have been picked up by the personnel of the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). When contacted, public relations officer of the KRL said he was completely in the dark about the issue. The founder of the KRL Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan could not be contacted for his comments despite repeated efforts. "Dr Khan is not at home and it is very difficult to tell where he will be at this time," a person who received the telephone call at the residence of Dr Khan at Banni Gala told Dawn. Cheers
Posted by: Dr. S. Kalyan Dec 11 2003, 07:17 PM
This is a good sign that USA is waking up to the reality of the Islamic bomb in Pakistan. The next steps should be to achieve the aim of de-nuking the islamic nuke in Pakistan. It is too risky for the comfort of US security to allow the nuke facilities to continue to exist in this failed state. If any fundamentalist group gains control in Pakistan, the first enemy on the list will be USA. USA knows that Pakistan survives only because US is buttressing the state. But, then USA should know how to dismount a tiger of USA's own creation. If help is needed, Bharat and Israel will surely come forward to help USA in the de-nuking operations. Kalyanaraman FBI arrests Pak nuclear scientists for leaking technology to Iran Thursday December 11 2003 15:15 IST IANS ISLAMABAD: Two top Pakistani nuclear scientists have been arrested by the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for allegedly transferring technology to Iran, according to reports. The FBI is believed to have arrested Yasin Chohan, Director General of Khan Research Laboratories (KRL), Pakistan's premier nuclear facility, and Farooq (no second name), a Director, Dawn said on Thursday. Farooq was said to be "very close" to KRL founder Abdul Qadeer Khan, widely acknowledged as the father of Pakistan's nuclear programme. "Nobody in Khan Research Laboratories exactly knew about the whereabouts of the two scientists and it is believed they have been picked up by FBI. When contacted, the public relations officer of KRL said he was completely in the dark on the issue," Dawn said. Abdul Qadeer Khan could not be reached for comment. "Khan is not at home and it is very difficult to tell where he will be at this time," a person who received the telephone call at his residence told Dawn. The issue figured in parliament with Senator Sajid Mir raising a point of order in the upper house. "He lamented that those who had made the country's defence strong were now picked up to please some foreign countries," The News reported. "KRL, which was considered a solid guarantee of national defence, had been opened to foreigners to arrest Pakistani scientists," Mir charged. "With this act the government is now a security risk for the country," Senator Khursheed Ahmed Khan of the opposition Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) religious alliance, told reporters. "The government should take the people and parliament into confidence over the arrest of scientists," demanded MMA Senator Ishaq Dar, charging that the government had decided to roll back its nuclear programme. "Our nation should launch joint efforts to safeguard the vital programme otherwise the US will take it over," he maintained. The Pakistani government reacted cautiously on the issue. A foreign office spokesman said people associated with sensitive programmes "are governed by a stringent personnel dependability and debrief programme. This is a normal practice, especially in nuclear weapons states. These people are aware of their responsibilities in terms of their efficiency and conduct." "Under the programme, individuals may have to undergo debriefing sessions and the matter referred to falls within the scope of this practice," the spokesman said
Posted by: Dr. S. Kalyan Dec 11 2003, 07:24 PM
December 11, 2003, 8:00 a.m. Nuclear Spinning The Iran-Pakistan link. By Simon Henderson Forget, for the moment, Saddam's weapons of mass destruction — or lack thereof. Consider instead the other WMD conundrum: Iran. Events in Pakistan, where two nuclear scientists were arrested last week, suggest the whole issue is about to blow. (Figuratively, that is.) Last month, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the United Nations nuclear watchdog, declared, implausibly, that there was no evidence of Iran's trying to build an atomic bomb. Washington was gob-smacked. As with the proverbial duck, Iran's efforts looked like a nuclear-weapons program and sounded like a nuclear-weapons program. The trouble was the lack of proof sufficient to convince the pedants of the IAEA (which, incidentally, has never by itself discovered a clandestine nuclear-weapons program). The Pakistani link is crucial to showing Iran's true motives. Pakistan, which tested two nuclear bombs in 1998, used centrifuges to make "highly" enriched (i.e., bomb-grade) uranium. Iran also has centrifuges. The IAEA discovered traces of highly enriched uranium on some of them. Tehran's reported explanation? "They came like that." From where? "We bought the equipment from a middleman." The gossip is that Pakistan sold, directly or indirectly, the centrifuge equipment to Iran. The technology involves aluminum tubes — confusingly, the same technology that Saddam Hussein was reported to be interested in, although, to the glee of the war doubters, aluminum tubes found in Iraq so far have proved to be nothing more dangerous than casings for battlefield rockets. Aluminum tubes for centrifuges are decidedly "old-tech" but, in the absence of an alternative, can do the job, given enough time. Officially, Pakistan denies it transferred centrifuge technology to Iran. But that still leaves open the possibility that Pakistani scientists did a private deal with Tehran, for money or mischief. The suspect in the frame? Dr. Abdul Qader Khan, who retired nearly three years ago as head of the eponymous Khan Research Laboratory (KRL). But despite Khan's background, there is evidence that he is being set up and is, on this issue, innocent. The current state of the friendship between the U.S. and Pakistan is complicated at best, as American soldiers being shot at from Pakistani positions along the border with Afghanistan will testify. Osama bin Laden was reportedly sighted in the remote north-Pakistani town of Chitral recently. A more likely lair is somewhere in the vast, sprawling townships that make up Karachi, Pakistan's largest city on the Arabian Sea coast. President Musharraf, who retains the army uniform he was wearing when a 1999 coup brought him to power, juggles these tensions with Washington. Last month he was reported in the Los Angeles Times as saying that a trip by Khan to Iran had been about short-range missiles rather than nuclear issues. And, earlier this year, the Los Angeles Times quoted former Iranian diplomats as saying that Khan made several trips to Iran, beginning in 1987, and was given a villa on the Caspian Sea coast in return for his assistance. This last report caught my eye as I once asked Khan whether he had ever been to Iran. I can remember his reply clearly: "Never." I have spoken with Khan or exchanged letters with him frequently over the years. He is often evasive but I think I can tell when he is telling a diplomatic lie. For the rest of the time, I think he is straightforward with me. I understand he stands by his claim of never having visited Iran. The two nuclear scientists arrested last week were departmental directors at KRL. Dr. Mohammed Farooq and Dr. Yassin Chowhan were picked up at 10 P.M. on the night of December 1. They were taken away by Pakistani intelligence agents, accompanied, it is alleged, by English-speaking men, apparently CIA officers. Their homes in Rawalpindi, the city which merges into the capital, Islamabad, are reportedly under surveillance. Dr. Farooq was in charge of the section at KRL that dealt with ties to foreign suppliers and customers for KRL products. KRL also makes a range of battlefield products for the Pakistani army, such as a version of a Chinese handheld antiaircraft missile. (It also makes the Pakistani version of the North Korean nuclear-capable Nodong missile.) Dr. Chowhan ran one of the assembly lines at KRL. The assumption is that the two men will be held until they confess to assisting Dr. Khan in supplying centrifuges to Iran. Dr. Khan, now retired, is nominally an adviser to President Musharraf, but there is little evidence to show that his advice is sought very often. In the bitchy world of Pakistani politics, there is resentment that Dr. Khan is popularly considered "the father of the Islamic bomb." So if Dr. Khan or some other Pakistani scientist did not supply centrifuge technology to Iran, who did? Suspicion falls on a Sri Lankan merchant formally based in Dubai, a member of his country's Muslim minority who has now returned home. The businessman acted as a conduit for Pakistan's orders of components and manufacturing equipment. Using that knowledge, he put in for extra orders of equipment and arranged a side deal with Iran. This scenario dates the start of Iran's centrifuge project to 1979, eight years earlier than the IAEA's assessment. Iran has refused to tell the IAEA the identity of this middleman. But what about the traces of highly enriched uranium the IAEA found on the equipment in Iran? KRL apparently still uses some of its aluminum centrifuges alongside the later and more efficient ones made out of special steel. Others have been "scrapped and crushed." None has been exported. Perhaps Iran has been more successful at enrichment than it wants to admit. Washington's motives are reasonably clear, even if not fully explained in public. Relations with Pakistan are very important. Iran's nuclear ambitions must be curtailed. Presumably if Dr. Khan is blamed, President Musharraf is forced, through embarrassment, into more cooperation with the U.S. But Iran's nuclear progress might be understated, and activities of an unscrupulous middleman might escape closer inspection. As with centrifuges themselves, there is a lot of spin. — Simon Henderson is a London-based energy consultant and associate of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 11 2003, 08:38 PM
India proposes Mumbai-Karachi Bus Service, Rajasthan-Sind Rail Service, Atari-Lahore Rail Service, Srinagar-Muzzafarabad Bus Service, Indian Actresses rushing to Lotastaan, DDM wanting India to do more to accommodate Lotastaan. Here is Lotastaan’s Reply :,001300650004.htm Indo-Asian News Service - New Delhi, December 11 The Indian government said on Thursday that Pakistan had deployed submarines and troops near its western coast. "The government is aware of the deployment of submarines and troops by Pakistan near the west coast of Gujarat," Defence Minister George Fernandes said in a written answer in the Lok Sabha. "Operations of Pakistan Navy submarines near the Gujarat coast have come to notice during the last two months. There is also known deployment of Pakistani troops near the west coast of Gujarat, opposite the Rann of Kutch and Sir Creek Area," he added. Indian armed forces were monitoring the Pakistani moves and maintaining "constant surveillance", he said. Fernandes statement comes in the backdrop of peace moves by the two countries and Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's planned trip to Islamabad in the first week of January to attend the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) summit. The two countries have initiated a series of confidence building measures aimed at normalising relations. Fernandes, in his reply, did not refer to the possible impact of the Pakistani action on the peace process. Well. For two months India has [/b]noted[/b] Lotastaani moves and then offered all the sops to Lotastaan for the Buses, Trains and Ferries Services. Well done India. No wonder nobody takes India seriously Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 11 2003, 11:01 PM
Atleast India is watching its back and knows very well what are enemies intention and new agenda. No re-run of Kargil in Gujarat. OR Telling Paki dictaor commando that we are watching your steps, stay tight in your den this time.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 11 2003, 11:06 PM
Surprise attack on Gujarat harbour or Bombay can cripple India's economy.
Posted by: k.ram Dec 12 2003, 12:10 AM
Only temples find place on NSG's terror map BHAVNA VIJ-AURORA NEW DELHI, DECEMBER 10: Are temples in the country more vulnerable to terrorist attacks than mosques and churches? The government seems to think so. The National Security Guard, which has completed a survey of major temples in the country, has concluded that nearly two dozen face a security threat and need more protection. The NSG survey was undertaken on the directions of Ministry of Home Affairs, following the terrorist attack on the Raghunath temple in Jammu earlier this year. The survey did not include mosques or churches. ``There was no need to include mosques or churches as there is no perceived threat to them,'' a senior official said. Sources said the Intelligence Bureau carried out regular threat perception surveys of various temples and other religious places. ``The NSG was specifically asked to conduct a detailed study of terrorist threat to temples after a series of attacks, including the one on Akshardham in Gandhinagar last year and two attacks on the Raghunath temple," the official said. Moreover, he added, there have been no terrorist attack on a mosque or church or any other religious place for that matter. ``Security strategies have to be formulated based on intelligence inputs and past experience,'' he said. Minister of State for Home I.D. Swami told The Indian Express that most of the vulnerable temples had been provided ``ample security'' which included Central forces such as the CRPF and CISF, in addition to state police. He denied religious considerations in gauging threat perception. The temples under the vulnerable category include the Shankaracharya temple in Srinagar, Kamakhya in Assam, Jagannath in Puri (Orissa), Vaishno Devi in Jammu, Tirupati in Andhra Pradesh, Dilwara (Jain) in Mount Abu, Bodh Gaya in Bihar, Somnath in Gujarat, Dwarkadhish Krishna and Iskcon temple in Vrindavan and Hanuman and Birla Mandir in Delhi. It mentions also threats to the Golden Temple in Amritsar.
Posted by: vishal Dec 12 2003, 12:16 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 11 2003, 11:06 PM)
Surprise attack on Gujarat harbour or Bombay can cripple India's economy. will provide india Golden apportunity to knock-off atleast pak-navy(including their all submarines forever). economy will not die but will slow down for another 10 years....thats all.. biggrin.gif
Posted by: acharya Dec 12 2003, 12:17 AM
American expert wants Pakistan’s security concerns addressed By Khalid Hasan WASHINGTON: The United States and India should work on addressing Pakistan’s genuine security concerns to bring about stability to the region, said Dr Jonah Black, chief adviser on South Asia to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Addressing a panel discussion organised here by Asia Society Tuesday, he did not explain how India could be part of the effort when Pakistan’s security concerns were centred on India and its growing military power. The South Asia expert said one of the contentious issues in Washington and New Delhi was whether a “regime change” was needed in Pakistan for the sake of stability in the region or whether the status quo should be continued Dr Black said it was in everyone’s interest that Pakistan should remain stable because a disintegrating Pakistan would pose grave problems for the region and beyond. There should be a “convergence of interest” between Washington and New Delhi on this issue. “Pakistan should be an anchor and not a drag on the region,” he added. He also found common ground between India and the US on the question of terrorism. However, he warned that the war on terrorism should not be seen as a war on Islam or on Muslim countries. He also stressed that sophisticated weapons system were not only expensive but did not guarantee stability and India and Pakistan would be well advised to spend their money on more rewarding areas, such as education and health. He defended the delivery of US defence equipment to India, though derided the sale of sophisticated weapons systems. He said that during a visit to Indian-held Kashmir, he found Indian troops ill equipped, using World War II, vintage shot guns against the AK-47s that were standard issue to anti-Indian fighters. They did not have proper night-surveillance equipment, anti-ballistic vests or encrypted communication technology. Judy Macdonald, country director for South Asia at the Department of Defence, spoke about US-India defence relations and said New Delhi was troubled by Washington’s support for Pakistan, interrupted by Kargil, but revived after the World Trade Centre attacks. India had resented the fact that it was Pakistan that Washington had first approached for help after 9/11. New Delhi also doubted Washington’s ability to guarantee defence supplies and other equipment, as the US Congress could throw a spanner in the works anytime. Ms Macdonald said India was not sure about the ultimate US intentions in the region nor certain as to what its military might be asked to give up in return for US support.
Posted by: rhytha Dec 12 2003, 12:20 AM
the guy who heads the MMA is dead, dead of heart attack smile.gif Added later:Saw news ticker in dd news
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 12:23 AM
the guy who heads the MMA is dead, dead of heart attack
Any link
Posted by: Viren Dec 12 2003, 12:59 AM
there you go.......,00050002.htm
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 01:10 AM
Posted by: Viren Dec 12 2003, 01:12 AM
I have read in past that Abdul Qadeer Khan was a member of Jaish-e-Mohd - an organization on US State Dept Terror watch list. Wonder when he'll be picked up. Besides, he's a wanted many in Holland with a interpol notice on him for over 15 years now. Why don't they be equal-equal in enforcement of law huh? Only small fries nabbed while the big fish is still enjoying his hookaha/kebabs/rooh-afza? blink.gif
Posted by: Viren Dec 12 2003, 01:18 AM
More on Noorani: (site is down for some reason)
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 02:54 AM NEW DELHI: India will continue work on the controversial Baglihar hydropower project in Jammu and Kashmir, rejecting Pakistan's accusations that it was violating a 1960 water treaty between the two countries. Pakistan has served a second notice asking India to stop work on the hydropower project on the river Chenab in the northern state on grounds that it violated the 1960 Indus Water Treaty. ......
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 02:56 AM NEW DELHI: India has no plans to import piped natural gas via Pakistan as it is concerned about the safety of the pipeline despite a thaw in bilateral relations, Oil Minister Ram Naik told Reuters on Thursday. Pakistan's Ambassador Aziz Ahmed Khan said this week Islamabad would give "absolute guarantees" for the security of the proposed pipeline from Central Asia or Iran but Naik was not convinced. "Peace is something which is necessary and a gas line is very explosive," Naik told Reuters in an interview. "Anyone can play with the pipeline." .......
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 08:14 AM
EDITORIAL: Govt justified in investigating nuclear scientists The so-called “erosion of national sovereignty” is turning out to be our national mantra, the constant refrain of the opposition parties as well some sections of the media. Any genuine security measure carried out by the government is seen to have been at the behest of external pressure (read the Americans) and a “sell out” by General Pervez Musharraf to strengthen his own powers. Some of us insist on viewing such steps through the prism of abstract “sovereignty” and are unwilling to judge each case on its “politically realistic” merits, which should include taking into consideration our own domestic imperatives and our international responsibilities. A nuanced approach appears to be out of the grasp of such critics. Consider the ruckus over the detention of two KRL officers who are being investigated by the government for alleged indiscretions regarding transfer of prohibited nuclear information or know how. The report that a director of the Kahuta Research Laboratories had been detained was first carried by a Pakistani Urdu newspaper in Islamabad some days ago. From there it was picked up by the Indian media. We at the Daily Times monitored the developments and after a couple of attempts at getting a satisfactory response from some government departments finally succeeded in getting a formal four line statement from the Foreign Office, which we duly printed the following day. We then learnt that Liaquat Baloch, a leader of the MMA, had two days earlier mentioned in a gathering in Multan that two KRL officers had been picked up for questioning. So the news was totally homespun. Now we have been finally told by the government that two senior officials of KRL, Dr Yasin Chohan and Dr Farooq Mohammad, are in custody for “debriefing”, a euphemism for interrogation about alleged transfer of nuclear related knowledge to non-Pakistani sources. Meanwhile, the joint opposition decided to pick up the issue in a Senate session two days ago, predictably making the leap of faith to reach the conclusion that “national sovereignty had been eroded” and Pakistan had “surrendered to the Americans”. The erosion of national sovereignty is not just the constant and never-ending lament with the opposition, it is its favourite stick with which to beat the government. And this is more than evident by the reporting of this issue in sections of the press yesterday. News reports carried by some papers share the opposition’s concern. Alleging that Mr Mohammad was picked up by security agencies, accompanied by ‘foreigners’, they too have expressed horror at the “erosion of sovereignty”. The fact that no foreigners were involved at any stage of the incident or that the two gentlemen have not been handed over to the Americans is inconvenient in their scheme of things, hence it has been thrown overboard. It would be well for these people to actually look at the entire picture and judge it rationally rather than emotionally. As the government spokesman has pointed out “people attached with sensitive programmes are governed by a stringent personnel dependability and debriefing programme. This is normal practice, especially in nuclear-weapons states.” Hence it is the responsibility of the state to ensure that citizens working in such sensitive programmes are obeying the relevant rules and not acting outside the prescribed laws and policies of the state. In fact, part of the problem Pakistan has faced and continues to face is that of individuals and groups in and out of government or state that are sometimes inclined to act contrary to the state’s policies or interests. Therefore if there is the slightest suspicion that these two KRL officers were involved in any dubious or unlawful activities, then the government of Pakistan has done the right thing by detaining and questioning them. A thorough investigation must be carried out to ascertain the full facts. As it is, Pakistan has continued to receive negative publicity in the western press over its alleged links with the Iranian nuclear programme and the denials of the government of Pakistan have failed to put an end to these rumours. Keeping in mind this scenario, the government must do whatever it can to dispel the image that Pakistan is an irresponsible nuclear-weapon state which is sharing nuclear know-how with other countries. We support the government’s act and are of the opinion that it has done well to question these KRL officers. This sends the right signals to the international community that Pakistan is sincere when it claims to be a responsible state and that it will take all necessary steps to ensure that rogue elements within the country are not acting in contradiction to the stated official policies of the national security establishment. And after all, apart from a signal to the international community, it is also in Pakistan’s interest to ensure that sub-state actors or individuals are not acting of their own free will and passing on sensitive information to other states or actors. This is why we also supported the earlier interrogation of a nuclear scientist Bashiruddin Mehmood for alleged links with Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 11:13 AM
Monkey swings or considered policy? By Ayaz Amir Is anything like dignity or self-respect left in a country we insist on calling the Islamic Republic? Self-respecting nations don't allow their scientists, atomic or mechanical, to be humiliated at the behest of foreign powers. News reports, yet to be denied, suggest that during the cloak-and-dagger arrests of two leading nuclear scientists attached to the Kahuta Research Laboratories (KRL), Engineer Muhammad Farooq and Yasin Chauhan, accompanying the nabbing party were two American lookalikes - urging "hurry up, hurry up". Which gives you an idea of national sovereignty after we became willing recruits in what began as George Bush's war on terrorism but is now his war against only God knows what or whom. Granted we've been toeing America's line ever since, even going to the extent of handing over jurisdiction in some domestic areas to American agencies (CIA/FBI). But the latest to transpire is serious business, KRL lying at the heart of our nuclear programme. While always a beggar nation, we clung to the belief that our nuclear programme was one area of national life beyond external pressure. But with our scientists no longer sure of their personal safety, this belief now enters the realm of fiction. Ah, but the arrested scientists need to be questioned, we are told. That may be so but why pick them up in this manner? Surely there are other ways of asking questions. Bringing the focus of suspicion on our scientists implicates not just them but the nation itself because, given the tight security under which our nuclear regime operates, no scientist can have any links with North Korea, Iran or the devil himself without official clearance. In any case, anything connected with our nuclear programme is for us to deal with. The Americans should have nothing to do with it. Give them some latitude and we won't know where to stop. God knows we've done enough for them already. What more do they want? Dr Mahathir (will Pakistan ever have a leader like him?) was not being anti-Semitic when he said the Jews were a thinking people and had survived by using their brains. This was the highest compliment anyone could have paid the Jewish nation. Mahathir's conclusion was that Muslims should be like the Jews: able to think rather than to be victims of blind anger. Well, the Jewish nation has developed a sophisticated nuclear programme without allowing anyone, not even the US, to have a peek into it. During Eisenhower's time (or was it Kennedy's?) the Americans, alarmed by reports that Israel was developing nuclear weapons, insisted on inspecting Israeli nuclear installations. Guess what the Israelis did. They fabricated an entire nuclear facility just to fool the Americans. The Americans went back satisfied because they saw nothing sinister. And what did the Israelis do to Mordechai Vanunu who blew the whistle on their nuclear programme? Through a girl (who else?) they enticed him from London to Rome from where he was kidnapped and brought to Israel. He's been locked up ever since. That's the Israeli concept of national security. Compare this to the emotionalism and chest-beating accompanying our attempts to make the bomb. The only thing we didn't do was make the bomb in the open. Anyway, having acquired a nuclear capability, what on earth is it for, to make us less or more dependent? If this is the price to pay for remaining in America's good books, we might as well exchange our bombs for what money we can get. A strange nation we have become, devoid of balance and equilibrium, forever swinging from one extreme to the other. Raising the banner of jihad and defying world opinion by supporting the Taliban. Then swinging to the other extreme and becoming a banana republic. Nor is this all. To please the Americans we vow to exterminate religious extremism. At the same time, Gen Musharraf woos the very forces, in the form of the Muttahida Majis-i-Amal (MMA), whose fundamentalist thinking is a threat to the concept of a modern Pakistan. Qazi Hussain Ahmed's Jamaat-i-Islami and Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman's Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam, the leading components of the MMA, were both opposed to the creation of Pakistan. Today, thanks to Musharraf's dalliance with them, for the first time in Pakistan's history they are turning into serious claimants of political power. General Zia isn't around but Pakistan still lives with the poisoned fruits of his policies. Just as it will have to live with what grows out of the dragon's teeth Gen Musharraf is now sowing. Why is he doing this? For no purpose higher than self-preservation. In the compromise now being worked out, Musharraf and his LFO will receive clerical benediction while the mullahs have an easier time of it in the Frontier and Balochistan, the two provinces they dominate. A see-saw approach is also evident in relations with India. Musharraf, recall, gave us Kargil, the mother of all follies. When he became ruler of Pakistan his tone towards India was tough, a bit too tough as many people thought. Now the same person is bending over backwards to please India. If there was no sense in Kargil and jihad, there's little dignity, and no wisdom, in Pakistan's present course. In response to Indian proposals for easing travel restrictions, etc, the Pakistan foreign secretary says one thing. Everything is on track and the Indians aren't miffed. Then out of the blue, the Pakistan prime minister takes a slightly different line. He even offers a unilateral ceasefire along the Line of Control. A great idea but pegged to what overture from India? As far as anyone can make out, none. Pakistan takes a certain stand on over-flights, seeking guarantees against a unilateral cut-off, not an unreasonable demand, given India's unilateral banning of over-flights twice in the past, 1970 and 2001. Right when a Pakistani team is in Delhi for talks on the issue, Gen Musharraf does an aboutturn and announces an unconditional acceptance of over-flights. This just a day before elections in four Indian states, in which the BJP makes a strong showing. Mr Vajpayee's claim to statesmanship rests in part on his 'peace policy' towards Pakistan. Here, right on the eve of a crucial poll, Pakistan's ruler sends a signal which can only benefit, not harm, the BJP. Asked about reports that India was accelerating work on fencing the Working Boundary (between Sialkot and Jammu) and the Line of Control, Gen Musharraf's response is dismissive. He says the fence was five kilometers inside Indian Kashmir and not visible from the Pakistani side. Even then, Pakistan had protested. A few days later, driven by second thoughts, Pakistan's response gets louder and angrier. We now say the fencing constitutes a violation of international treaties. People in Pakistan, however, note that with the guns silent along the LoC, there is nothing that Pakistan can do to deter India from going ahead with the fencing. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Jamali, away on another of his meaningless foreign visits (which country takes him seriously as an interlocutor?), calls the Indian prime minister from Paris to thank him for agreeing to come to Pakistan for the Saarc summit. For good measure he adds that Pakistan is waiting to welcome him. What is going on? Peace with India, yes, but why these gymnastic feats to please India? Who appreciates unilateral concessions? Who doesn't read them as signs of weakness? Even nations vanquished in war try to take a tough stand at the negotiating table. We were defeated in 1971 yet Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, to his lasting honour, did not sell national dignity at Shimla. Thirty odd years later Pakistan is like a monkey swinging from one high branch to another: now caught in the throes of jihad, now for no rhyme or reason giving a new twist to appeasement. Poor Nawaz Sharif eking out a royal exile in the Holy Land. His approach towards India had more dignity to it than the blow hot, blow cold policy we've seen over the last four years.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 12 2003, 11:35 AM
'HT Leadership Initiative' to focus on S Asian peace, progress Flush.gif HT Correspondent New Delhi, December 11 South Asia dares to hope. India and Pakistan have agreed to a ceasefire along the LoC and, for the first time, along the Siachen glacier. Prime Minister AB Vajpayee is scheduled to begin the new year by attending a SAARC summit in Islamabad next month. On Friday and Saturday, the Hindustan Times Leadership Initiative will provide an exclusive venue to allow some accomplished individuals from the region and the world to provide some intellectual insight and practical polish to this hope. The keynote address at "The Peace Dividend: Progress for India and South Asia" will be delivered by Prime Minister Vajpayee who has kept the flame of hope alive. Congress president Sonia Gandhi, former Pakistani PM Benazir Bhutto, former Sri Lankan Foreign Minister Lakshman Kadirgamar, Jammu and Kashmir CM MM Sayeed and National Conference leader Omar Abdullah are the political voices from the region who will share their wisdom on the hows and whys of peace and progress in the sub-continent. India has always been open to the views of the broader world. Which is why the former US Secretary of State, Madeleine Albright, and the President of the US Council for Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, will contribute their considerable experience and knowledge to the conference's proceedings. Peace is also about tangible benefits. To explain them, the meet also includes Planning Commission member NK Singh, former RBI Governor Bimal Jalan, Reliance Industries Vice-Chairman Anil Ambani and Hindustan Lever Chairman MS Banga. Renowned intellectual Prof. Francis Fukuyama will provide a philosophical background to what will be said and shared. Peace, progress and other issues of concern will not be resolved in just two days. Which is why they mark the initiation of the Hindustan Times Leadership Initiative.
Posted by: Kaushal Dec 12 2003, 08:20 PM
The lessons that Ayaz Amir draws for TSP apply in part to India too, especially the part where Israel goes after its enemies. India should be equally tenacious in going after the capture or assassination of Dawood.
Posted by: Viren Dec 12 2003, 11:56 PM
Pakistan - what else is new.......
Posted by: Viren Dec 13 2003, 12:00 AM
Pakistani children in Kashmir (news - web sites) study in their school at the Line of Control in Teetwal, 195 km (122 miles) north of Srinagar. A is for AK-47, B is for Bomb, C is for Curfew -- that is how children in disputed Kashmir learned the alphabet for many years. Two weeks after guns fell silent on the front line between India and Pakistan, hundreds of war-weary children living near the highly militarized region are returning to regular schools to resume an education interrupted by years of shelling.
Let's guess: D - Dynamite or Dictator E - Enemy F - Fauji G - Guns H - Honor (as we'll our own kith and kin for it) ...
Posted by: Mudy Dec 13 2003, 12:47 AM 2003-12-12 20:03:01 ISLAMABAD, Dec. 12 (Xinhuanet) -- Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said Friday that his country's strategy of deterrence is well founded and will be maintained, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan. Musharraf said, "This strategy is defensive and we have no design to go offensive and attack an enemy. But if we are attacked, we will defend and in that defense we are going to be very, very offensive." "We won't be merely defensive. We are going to be offensive in defending ourselves. That is the strategy," he told reporters after inaugurating the commissioning of the country's first indigenously built Agosta 90B Submarine "Saad" at the Pakistan Navy Dockyard in the southern port city of Karachi. Replying to a question regarding the fencing of Line of Control (LoC) by the India army, Musharraf stressed that the status of the LoC should not be changed at all. Any such things that change the status of the LoC should be avoided, especially during these days when ceasefire is being observed by both sides in Kashmir, Musharraf said, adding Pakistan has already lodged a protest in this respect. It is reported that the Indian troops stepped up fencing the LoC after a historic ceasefire in Kashmir came into effect late November. Pakistan said that the fencing is against bilateral and international agreements and vowed to stop such a move through all diplomatic ways. Enditem
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 13 2003, 01:03 AM
Cross Posted on the Energy Sector Thread : DELHI: A long-delayed plan to build a US$3 billion Iran-India gas pipeline through Pakistan could gain some momentum this week as Indian and Iranian officials gear up for talks, days after Pakistan guaranteed the project's security. Yashwant Sinha, India's foreign minister, was flying late Friday for Teheran to discuss the pipeline and other economic ties with Iranian officials. He will also meet Iran's President Mohammad Khatami and Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi, foreign ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna told reporters. Eager to find new markets, Iran has been pursuing the pipeline project with India and Pakistan since 1996. Iranian officials say the 2,600-kilometer (1,600-mile) pipeline would save India around US$300 million a year in energy costs, and experts say it would help India overcome its energy deficit. Pakistan also would have access to the gas, and earn about US$600 million a year in transit fees. But persistent tensions between India and Pakistan, who are in a decades-old dispute over the Himalayan region of Kashmir, have stymied plans. India doesn't want to depend on Pakistan for energy, fearing its archrival could sabotage the pipeline or control it for political leverage. However, Pakistan's ambassador to India, Aziz Ahmed Khan, said Tuesday that Islamabad was ready to guarantee the pipeline's security. "Frankly, India has nothing to worry (about) because we guarantee security to the project under international conventions,'' Khan had said in the eastern city of Calcutta. Sarna declined to comment on the ambassador's remarks, saying India and Iran were studying the feasibility of the project. Iran has offered to pay for up to 60 percent of the proposed pipeline, while India and Pakistan would split the rest of the cost. Renewed talk of the pipeline coincides with recent steps toward peace between India and Pakistan, nuclear-armed neighbors which were on the brink of war last year. Lotastaan’s Security Guarantee isn’t worth the paper it is written on. India has regretted every Agreement it has made with Lotastaan. I hope that the Indian Government is not as foolish as the Lotastaanis consider it to be. Cheers
Posted by: Krishna Dec 13 2003, 01:26 AM
Pak a threat to entire world: Bush's adviser New Delhi: Pakistan is a "threat to the entire South Asian region and the world" as nothing has been done to dismantle terrorist camps operating from its territory, key foreign policy adviser to the Bush administration Richard Haass said here today. Speaking on the opening day of "Peace Dividend - Progress for India and South Asia", organised by Hindutan Times Leadership Initiative, he cautioned against getting too sanguine about the recent Indo-Pak ceasefire as the relationship between the two countries was still "remarkably underdeveloped." Haass, who is President of the Council of Foreign Relations, New York, said "we welcome it. But let us not lose sight of reality. Nothing has been done by Pakistan to dismantle terrorist camps that still characterise the situation." Presenting the US perspective on "Securing South Asia", he described Pakistan as one of US toughest foreign policy problems and that the challenge was to make Pakistan a modern, functioning democracy. Haass said a stable and secure Pakistan was in Indias interest and "in the long run, we see India and Pakistan as partners with their future intimately intertwined." Participating in the discussion, Pakistans Awami Action Party leader Asfandyar Wali Khan said madrasas in Pakistan are still being funded by petro dollars from the Middle East. "Unless the funding is controlled, no power will be able to contain fundamentalism which is feeding international terrorism," he said. Khan is the grandson of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan better known as Frontier Gandhi. He said timely action in Afghanistan had prevented the country from becoming an Arab colony and the Taliban was just a front for the Arab-dominated Al Qaeda. Former Sri Lankan Foreign Minister Lakshman Kadirgamar expressed "frustration" that SAARC was being "held hostage" by the Indo-Pak tangle during the three years that Sri Lanka headed the regional grouping. "The two must sort out their issues bilaterally under the Simla Agreement," he said. Kadirgamar expressed apprehension over the proposals by LTTE for an Internal Self-Governing Authority in Northern and Eastern Sri Lanka and that Indias involvement in the resolution of the ethnic dispute was "inevitable."'s~adviser
Posted by: Krishna Dec 13 2003, 01:29 AM
Benazir Bhutto has lunch with the Advanis Former Pakistan prime minister Benazir Bhutto, who is in Delhi to attend a two-day conference on peace in South Asia, on Friday had a luncheon meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Lal Kishenchand Advani at his residence. Wearing a bright violet salwar-suit, Bhutto spent almost two hours at Advani's residence, where she was received at the portico with flowers by the deputy prime minister, his wife Kamala and daughter Pratibha. Neither Bhutto nor Advani spoke to the waiting journalists outside. Sources said it was 'purely a personal and private luncheon' as both leaders belong to Sindh province in Pakistan. This is the second time the Advanis had invited Bhutto to lunch, the previous time being four years ago. On December 14, Bhutto will pay a visit to Ajmer for a pilgrimage to the dargah of Sufi saint Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 13 2003, 05:23 AM
The disclosure by the Foreign Office spokesman that as many 22,000 Pakistanis have been deported by Oman since the year 2000 and another 1000 are awaiting deportation is alarming. It shows that not only are our borders porous to facilitate entrance by aliens into Pakistan but also to enable our nationals to sneak out of the country without documents. Consequently, almost daily Pakistani nationals are being sent back by sea and air from different countries. Oman accounts for most but United States has also deported several planeloads of Pakistanis. Sadly the relentless expulsion continues.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 13 2003, 06:46 AM
It shows that not only are our borders porous to facilitate entrance by aliens into Pakistan
liar.gif ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 13 2003, 06:55 AM
He ruled out any possibility of putting the Kashmir issue into cold storage and said this was the core issue between Pakistan and India. To a query on Indian Prime Minister offer of joint currency and open border, Prime Minister Jamali did not exhibit any enthusiasm and said it was not an easy task to achieve. He said that it took long for Euro to become a joint currency in Europe which showed that nothing could happen before its proper time.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 13 2003, 11:45 PM
Ghar Ka Bhadi Lanka Dahiy,001300680000.htm Former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto on Saturday publicly acknowledged that Islamabad took a conscious decision to launch a low-intensity proxy war against India in the late 1980s with an objective of drawing the world's attention to the Kashmir issue. Bhutto made the confession of Pakistan's direct involvement in terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir at the conference, "Peace Dividend - Progress for India and South Asia", organised by the Hindustan Times Leadership Initiative in New Delhi. "A joint politico-military decision was taken (by Pakistan) in 1989. The view was that low-intensity operations will help focus attention on Kashmir," she said in a question-answer session following her keynote address at the Conference. Her acknowledgement that Pakistan used terrorism as an instrument of state policy to further strategic objectives confirms what has been generally known but never admitted by Islamabad. For years, Pakistan has denied involvement in the J&K insurgency, arguing that it is an indigenous armed struggle. Ms Bhutto said that during her two stints as PM, the violence engineered in Kashmir was "limited", suggesting that insurgency was a controlled and carefully caliberated affair, restricted to the "disputed area". "The violence was limited in its intensity. It was also limited to the Kashmir Valley. There were few attacks on women and children. The targets were mainly military," she said, repeating that "there were no attacks outside the Valley". "But with the change of leadership in Pakistan, the intensity of violence in Kashmir increased. It spread outside the Valley. The Mumbai Blasts, the attack on Indian Parliament occured during my stint in the Opposition," she said. Spreading the proxy war outside the "disputed area" was not on the original agenda, she claimed, suggesting implicity that the spurt witnessed after her ouster was the handiwork of the men in muftis. Ms Bhutto said the Pakistan People's Party , which she leads, reviewed the approach to Pakistan's relations with India after the nuclear explosions by the two countries in 1998 and the attack on Indian Parliament in 2001. The view taken by the PPP after the rethink is that a militant attack could spark off a war, and worse, even a nuclear exchange. In her address, Ms Bhutto said it was her determination to make a contribution to avoid a nuclear nightmare which made up her mind to participate in the HT conference. "We've decided to go back to the Simla Agreement and follow (former Foreign Secretary) JN Dixit's Cyprus proposal that the territorial dispute over Kashmir be treated as a separate agenda and not allowed to impede Indo-Pak relations," she said. "The new policy is based on new reality Terrorism is a threat that could define international relations just like Communism did for half a century, and this should not be allowed to happen," she said, explaining the turnaround. But Bhutto did not favour the ideas of shared sovereignty for J&K and the LoC as border. "The LoC is an emotive word. We need to avoid issues which are emotive. Since the dispute is over territory, we should tackle it separately and see how we can reduce violence and unite the people of Kashmir socially and economically and let them travel freely without going into the question of territory," she suggested. She suggested that India and Pakistan should put the past behind them and work for a robust and comprehensive relationship without prejudice to their territorial claims. Responding to a question on whether there could be lasting peace till the military called the shots, she claimed that the gap between Pakistan's military and political establishments on foreign policy was narrowing down, with the military overtly adopting policies expounded by the political class. But vital differences still exist. "They (the army) still insist that Kashmir be settled first but the political establishment does not," she admitted. Ms Bhutto was circumspect about the idea of open borders and a common currency which was thrown by Prime Minister Vajpayee at the HT Conference on Friday. In stead, she suggested a step-by-step approach to emulate the EUmodel, strongly warning against haste in tackling a problem that has festered for over five decades. "Today, we are at a place where Europe was 50 years ago. We should take similar steps. There can be free movement of people with territorial borders intact. We should start the journey and map out the foreseeable future and leave what is beyond it to the future generations. I don't want to hijack the future from them," she said, urging that certain proposals should be taken up when the time is ripe. "Whether this process will result in a common currency, who knows? If you have common trading goals, you may have a common currency as well," Ms Bhutto said, stressing that this was an issue for the future.
Posted by: vishal Dec 14 2003, 12:36 AM
QUOTE (Krishna @ Dec 13 2003, 01:26 AM)
Pak a threat to entire world: Bush's adviser Speaking on the opening day of "Peace Dividend - Progress for India and South Asia", organised by Hindutan Times Leadership Initiative, he cautioned against getting too sanguine about the recent Indo-Pak ceasefire as the relationship between the two countries was still "remarkably underdeveloped." Haass, who is President of the Council of Foreign Relations, New York, said "we welcome it. But let us not lose sight of reality. Nothing has been done by Pakistan to dismantle terrorist camps that still characterise the situation."'s~adviser
KRISHNA, Did you noticed it? ohmy.gif "we welcome it. But let us not lose sight of reality. Nothing has been done by Pakistan to dismantle terrorist camps that still characterise the situation." It seems very clear from this that USA is very uneasy about good relations developing between pakistan and India. what can be the reason for such frustation by richard ha*ss ?....noone from USA seemed so much UNSTABLE to the extent that instead of talking and advising their regular "be peacefull", this time in this conference they(american) have taken a step back! and are DOUBTING pakistan and advising indians for FIRST TIME that "be carefull....don't hurry...don't be such hopefull"!!!!??? will common currency Rupee means death for dollar? cool.gif Effect of rising dollar rolleyes.gif and second EURO-ENEMY for USA economy in future(if rupee became south asia currency) specool.gif devilsmiley.gif
Posted by: vishal Dec 14 2003, 12:42 AM this is the game going on in vajpayee's brain cool.gif laugh.gif i am all for it specool.gif clap.gif cheers.gif india.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 14 2003, 01:24 AM
It is a private invitation but signal to Pak Army, India is recognizing another power center or poping up. Good move. It will serve India' purpose.,001300680000.htm
Posted by: Krishna Dec 14 2003, 02:20 AM
Benazir admits that proxy war was a conscious decision Former Pakistan Premier Benazir Bhutto on Saturday publicly acknowledged that Islamabad took a conscious decision to launch a low-intensity proxy war against India in the late 1980s to draw the world's attention to Kashmir. Bhutto’s admission of Pakistan's direct involvement in terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir came at the Hindustan Times Leadership Initiative conference here. "A joint politico-military decision was taken (by Pakistan) in 1989. The view was that low-intensity operations will help focus attention on Kashmir," she said during a question-answer session after her keynote address. The acknowledgement confirms what has been generally known but never admitted by Islamabad. Pakistan has always denied involvement in J&K insurgency, arguing that it is an indigenous struggle. Bhutto said during her two stints as PM, the violence engineered in Kashmir was "limited", suggesting that insurgency was a controlled and carefully calibrated affair restricted to the "disputed area". "The violence was limited in its intensity. It was also limited to the Kashmir Valley. There were few attacks on women and children. The targets were mainly military," she said, repeating that "there were no attacks outside the Valley". "But with the change of leadership in Pakistan, the intensity of violence in Kashmir increased. It spread outside the Valley. Mumbai blasts, the attack on Indian Parliament occurred during my stint in the Opposition," she said. Spreading the proxy war outside the "disputed area" was not on the original agenda, she claimed. Bhutto said her Pakistan People's Party (PPP) reviewed the approach to Pakistan's relations with India after the 1998 nuclear tests and the attack on Parliament in 2001. The PPP now feels a militant attack could spark off a war and, worse, a nuclear exchange. Bhutto said it was her determination to make a contribution to avoid a nuclear nightmare that made up her mind to participate in the HT conference. "We've decided to go back to the Simla Agreement and follow (former foreign secretary) JN Dixit's Cyprus proposal that the territorial dispute over Kashmir be treated as a separate agenda and not allowed to impede Indo-Pak relations," she said. "The new policy is based on new reality. Terrorism is a threat that could define international relations just like communism did for half a century. This should not be allowed to happen," she said, explaining the turnaround. However, Bhutto did not favour the ideas of shared sovereignty for J&K and the LoC as border. "The LoC is an emotive word. We need to avoid issues which are emotive. Since the dispute is over territory, we should tackle it separately and see how we can reduce violence and unite the people of Kashmir socially and economically and let them travel freely without going into the question of territory," she said. Asked whether there could be lasting peace till the military called the shots, she said the gap between Pakistan's military and political establishments on foreign policy was narrowing. Bhutto was circumspect about the idea of open borders and a common currency espoused by Prime Minister AB Vajpayee on Friday. Instead, she suggested a step-by-step approach to emulate the EU model, warning against haste in tackling a problem that has festered for over 50 years. Nostalgic Benazir yearns for home In her address at the Hindustan Times Leadership Initiative conference, Benazir Bhutto largely refrained from washing the dirty linen of Pakistani politics. But the pain of being banished from her own country showed. Lauding the HT initiative, she hoped that a Pakistani newspaper would organise a similar conference, which she hoped she'd be able to attend. Infusing an element of emotion, Bhutto said: "For now, I'm in exile. I'm banned from my country. I am banned from contesting for premiership of my country... banned from seeing my husband who is in the eighth year of his imprisonment, banned from entering my ancestral homes, banned from praying at the graves of my martyred father and brothers.",001300680000.htm
Posted by: Viren Dec 14 2003, 11:56 AM
Infusing an element of emotion, Bhutto said: "For now, I'm in exile. I'm banned from my country. I am banned from contesting for premiership of my country... banned from seeing my husband who is in the eighth year of his imprisonment, banned from entering my ancestral homes, banned from praying at the graves of my martyred father and brothers."
thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif I have absoultely no sympathy for her. It was during her watch that terrorism in Kashmir peaked - and by her own admission it was a 'conscious decision' of her Govt to 'bleed India in Kashmir'. Kids growing up without parent coz in Kashmir; hundreds displaced from their land and living like refugees in their own country and this lady has a cheek to come around India and complain of her Mr. 10% or visiting Zulfi's grave (yep the same zulfi who played no small part in '71 genocide) I'm glad that she did visit India and had her chai-biscuits with Advani/ABV - what better way to show that we want democracy in Paki-land wink.gif - think of it as the 'moral and diplomatic support to oppressed pakis' fuck.gif
Posted by: Krishna Dec 14 2003, 12:10 PM
QUOTE (vishal @ Dec 13 2003, 01:06 PM)
KRISHNA, Did you noticed it? ohmy.gif "we welcome it. But let us not lose sight of reality. Nothing has been done by Pakistan to dismantle terrorist camps that still characterise the situation." It seems very clear from this that USA is very uneasy about good relations developing between pakistan and India. what can be the reason for such frustation by richard ha*ss ?....noone from USA seemed so much UNSTABLE to the extent that instead of talking and advising their regular "be peacefull", this time in this conference they(american) have taken a step back! and are DOUBTING pakistan and advising indians for FIRST TIME that "be carefull....don't hurry...don't be such hopefull"!!!!??? will common currency Rupee means death for dollar? cool.gif Effect of rising dollar rolleyes.gif and second EURO-ENEMY for USA economy in future(if rupee became south asia currency) specool.gif devilsmiley.gif
Vishal, There can never be a patch-up between India & TSPland. The world knows this, no one better than the USA. hence US is trying to maintain a very delicate balance between its relation with India & TSP. rolleyes.gif The comment that you quoted is just a way to maintain pressure on mushy, as India gives him some room. cool.gif Just mark my words: When the SAARC summit fails, or the 'talks' fail, you will see comments from Bin-Al-Collin-powell how good mushy has been on the war against terrorism! laugh.gif
Posted by: Krishna Dec 14 2003, 12:28 PM
Pakistanis want to reach out to Indians, says Urmila rolleyes.gif (Yes they do. they wanna reach out and kill India off so that they can establish dar-ul-islam. rolleyes.gif ) Bollywood actress Urmila Matondkar, just back from Pakistan, says Pakistanis are dying to reach out to Indians and that people in showbiz can contribute to current peace moves. "I want to tell everyone here that Pakistanis do want to reach out. I've seen it myself," she said in an interview with IANS after a hectic three-day visit to Pakistan where she was mobbed by fans and admirers. Her colleagues in the Indian movie industry, she felt, also needed to go to Pakistan and see for themselves the warmth for Indians out there. Excerpts from the interview: In what way was your trip to Pakistan fruitful? In every way it was tremendous! I wish all of India could see Pakistan through my eyes. The minute I entered their country through Wagah an entirely new world opened up for me. Everyone, from their security forces to civilians, came forward to greet me. How wrong it is of us to believe only we're making peace moves. What was the purpose of your visit? I went to Pakistan as the UN's peace ambassador to work in a 25-minute short film called "Moving Closer", which will be screened at the SAARC meet (next month in Islamabad). Admaker Prahlad Kakkad also made a music video with me as part of the short film. For three days we were treated to unconditional warmth and love. I was aware of the popularity of Bollywood stars there. But until I saw it first-hand I didn't know how popular they were. As I interacted with the press and people in Pakistan I realised we from showbiz have to go beyond the glamour aspects of our personalities to address the peace issue across the border. That's exactly what I tried to do. Everyone wondered whether the 'Rangeela' girl could address a mainstream press meet in Pakistan. Once I spoke from my heart it became clear that I wasn't just a glam gal. I reminded the Pakistani media that nations are built by the people and it's in our hands to alter attitudes. Was there any nervousness about the security? A: No, none at all. I roamed freely and happily on the streets of Lahore. I feel it's very unfair of us to sit on this side of the fence and judge the reality. I'm not a political activist. But I happen to believe in India-Pakistan friendship since long before I did Amrita Pritam's Pinjar. My father has been a part of an organisation in Mumbai called Pakistan-India Forum For Peace for almost 25 years. Every three years they have a meeting in Pakistan or India. It's unfortunate that an organisation doesn't get noticed in the media for peace efforts unless a glamorous personality is involved. In Lahore I met members of the Rotary club in Chennai who had gone to Pakistan for the same purpose. Is this the politicisation of Urmila Matondkar? Not the least. I'd like to keep myself as far away as politics as possible. I'm an actress who's using her stardom to take India towards peace with its neighbour. Did the Pakistanis relate to you as an actress? Oh they knew everything about all my films, about my looks in each film. We discussed the possibility of releasing some of our films in Pakistan. I met two Pakistani actors, Resham and Shamil Khan, who participated in the music video with me. I agreed to do the music video only because it was part of the UN's short film. Earlier I've turned down dozens of offers to do music video. Do you think your motives will be misconstrued? I don't want to think about it. As for doing it for publicity, by the grace of god I've had three highly talked-about releases this year. Publicity is coming out of my ears. Believe me I wasn't uncomfortable about answering so-called uncomfortable questions on India-Pakistan relations. My mind and heart were clear. Out there the scepticism about my motives was washed away. I hope the same happens here. They asked me about the Pakistan-bashing in Hindi films. I told them I couldn't speak on behalf of all my colleagues. But there're people like Shah Rukh Khan, Akshay Kumar and me who refuse to talk against Pakistanis in our films. (Hakla's a traitor, u'r a b!tc# & Akki lacks balls! Add the Mahesh Butt b@$t@rd as icing on top of that! mad.gif ) I told them negative thoughts are always heard more. The boy who shouts the hardest in the classroom gets heard first. (So we are shouting now! It must be all the Hindutwavadis who are out to get the poor innocent muslims of the subcontinent! rolleyes.gif ) What do you feel about Pakistan-bashing films in Bollywood? I'm far too inexperienced to comment on the works of the veterans (who make such films). But we must realise that all of us, in any part of the world, are humans. I want to tell everyone here that Pakistanis do want to reach out. I've seen it myself. I've sat on the roads of Lahore, bought 'jootis' (footwear) and eaten tikkas sitting on the pavements. From the panwala (betel-leaf seller) to the elite, everyone gave me only warmth and love. Let's move ahead. I want to know why is it that every time an Indian visits Pakistan, or vice-versa, he returns home teary-eyed?,0008.htm
Posted by: Mudy Dec 14 2003, 12:47 PM
As expected,0008.htm Despite repeated claims by Pervez Musharraf regime on controlling the 'jihadis', it is business as usual for the banned outfits in Pakistan who are openly collecting funds and distributing literature while their leaders are touring the country for recruitment, media reports said. On the other hand, Taliban terrorists were using Balochistan as their refuge and preparing "ground for operations in Afghanistan", reports appearing in The Friday Times, Christian Science Monitor and Daily Times said. A Lahore-datelined report in The Friday Times said the jihadi leaders were continuously touring the country and delivering sermons, even as the outfits continued "to publish their journals with impunity and on a regular basis to attract new recruits". The Pakistani weekly said Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khaleel, chief of the banned Jamait-ul-Ansar, recently visited North West Frontier Province and issued "jihadi sermons" in various mosques and madrassas to evolve "a strategy of operations" in the aftermath of the ban. The report said while the Jamait-ul-Ansar had cancelled its convention in Islamabad earlier this month, similar programmes in districts and provinces were continuing as scheduled. "The banned Millat-e-Islamia is now using the Sunni Action Committee platform to continue its activities ... while the Tehrik-e-Islami was using the platform of the International Shia Front much in the same way," it said.
Posted by: vishal Dec 14 2003, 08:09 PM
problem with Urmila is she thinks with her heart which is blind vision(hitachi colour hahahha)..she don't use her brain. ROTFL.gif but i don't know whats problem with shaahrukk and other b!t3es ......i guess they are from same elite class who supported and were enjoying stay of british in india. we should remember such elite class people are still present in country who prefer foreign powers over hindu rule in center.and these people don't have any sense of india's history and culture. grenade.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 14 2003, 09:15 PM
Just heard on B. B. C. - Musharraf escapes assassination attempt. Evidently Bomb Exploded on road just after his car had passed the point. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Dec 14 2003, 09:20 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Dec 14 2003, 09:15 PM)
Just heard on B. B. C. - Musharraf escpes assasination attempt. Evidently Bomb Exploded on road just after his car had passed the point. Cheers
thumbup.gif You mean stage managed assination attempt
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 14 2003, 09:30 PM An explosion has gone off just seconds after the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's convoy passed by. No-one was hurt in the blast, which damaged a section of road in the northern Pakistani city of Rawalpindi, close to the capital Islamabad. "The president's cavalcade passed a minute before the blast," said a military spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan said. "He is safe and sound. There is no loss of life or property," he added. Peace
Posted by: Mudy Dec 14 2003, 09:39 PM
No-one was hurt in the blast
It may be Diwali cracker. Kids must be having good time.
Posted by: rhytha Dec 14 2003, 09:53 PM
bad timing for mushlet, he won't get much of newprint real estate and tv time, its going to be saddam all the way pakee.gif tv_feliz.gif tongue.gif
Posted by: Krishna Dec 15 2003, 03:00 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Dec 14 2003, 09:45 AM)
Just heard on B. B. C. - Musharraf escapes assassination attempt. Evidently Bomb Exploded on road just after his car had passed the point. Cheers
Even our Hindi film industry can pull off better stunts than that, sometimes the real hero doin it. N' here the bomb explodes after the car passes away, safely! laugh.gif ROTFL.gif laugh.gif ROTFL.gif All I've 2 say is: pakee.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 15 2003, 07:55 AM
After viewing media pictures of bomb blast, blast was big. Lot of demage to walls etc. but would have not caused any impact to car especially his bullet proof car. pakee.gif
Posted by: rhytha Dec 15 2003, 11:39 AM
peregrine your "Rice Mixd mit mice schidt" letter has just been awarded quote fo the year in BR ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif nominated by this guy- ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 15 2003, 06:49 PM,00050002.htm Contrary to claims made by Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf that a bomb blast at a bridge near Rawalpindi was directed specifically at him, highly placed sources in Islamabad say that he may have engineered the incident to retain Washington's support as key ally in the war against terror and to strengthen his hold on power. The sources, on conditions of anonymity, further went on to say that it was ironical that no one had as yet claimed responsibility for the blast. It was also inexplicable that the incumbent establishment was continuing to maintain a stoic silence about who may have been behind the so-called assassination bid. It was their suspicion that Musharraf may have used the "bid on his life" to convince the United States that he was still their best hope in Pakistan and in the South Asian region for cooperation as far as tackling the menace of global terrorism is concerned. Domestically too, Musharraf may have wanted to send a message across to the Bush Administration that attempts to remove him from power at this juncture, could damage efforts to usher in a democratic, secular system of government, especially in the wake of reports that religious extremism and militant activity were raising their ugly heads again. On Sunday, Musharraf described the explosion that occurred after his presidential motorcade had passed as a "terrorist act". "When I came back from my tour of Sindh and as I was going back from Chaklala and we crossed the Amar Chowk Bridge, there was an explosion just half a minute or one minute after we crossed. I felt the explosion in my car. That is all that I know, except of course that it was certainly a terrorist act and certainly it was me who was targeted." He said that such incidents were not new to him, adding that it was the third attempt on his life since he had assumed power in a bloodless coup on October 12, 1999. "Let me say with confidence, I am used to ... such incidents have happened before also," he said. He described the incident as the work of religious and sectarian extremists within the country itself. "It is these extremist, these terrorists, these militants who are out to not only damage our nation but bring a bad name to our religion. The greatest danger to our nation is not external. It is internal and it comes from religious and sectarian extremism and this is a typical example of that. This is what I always say. We have to guard against it and we have to fight all these people with all our might," he said. Musharraf, according to the sources still saw himself as a key ally in the US-led war on terror, and has been reminding Washington that he has unhesitatingly been behind the international and nation-wide hunt for remnants of the Taliban and the Al-Qaeda, many of whom have been handed over to US custody. They include Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a suspected mastermind of the September 11 attacks caught in Rawalpindi earlier this year. The hunt goes on for al Qaeda mastermind Osama bin Laden, believed by some to be along the Afghan-Pakistan border. Musharraf allowed democratic elections to be held in October 2002 to re-establish a civilian government after he led a bloodless military coup in 1999, but a pro-military party won and the Prime Minister is perceived as weak. A Karachi court convicted three Islamic militants in October for carrying out a failed assassination attempt on Musharraf last year, handing down 10-year jail terms to each of them. The militants belonged to the al-Almi faction of Harkat-ul Mujahideen, a group that is also blamed for masterminding a suicide attack outside the US consulate in Karachi the same year in which 12 Pakistanis died. Last month, Musharraf outlawed six militant groups after US complaints that they had re-emerged under new names following a previous ban. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 15 2003, 06:51 PM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Dec 15 2003, 11:39 AM)
peregrine your "Rice Mixd mit mice schidt" letter has just been awarded quote fo the year in BR ROTFL.gif ROTFL.gif nominated by this guy- ROTFL.gif
rhytha : Many thanks for your facilitations. BTW : It shud read "Rice Mixt Mit Mice Schidt" Here is the Letter in Original : From : --- und --- Gmbh Wunterstrasse Hamburg 03 22 September 2003 To : H*n*sty Trading Co. Limited **, Shera Faisal, Karatchi. For Attention auf : Hadji Laka Mauda Khan and Hadji Chadder Mode Ahmed Dear Sir, Re : Bill of Lading 2125 KHI-HMB / 03-July-2003 It is mit great pain und frustration zat vee are forced to make zis complaint fur your immediate action. We received zee 500 Metric Tons of Bagged Pakistani Basmati Rice in zee 25 Containers mentioned in zee Bill auf Lading. However, on opening zee bags for further packaging vee find that efry one of zee bags has zee rice mixt mit mice schidt. We put up our original contract auf 25 May 2003, unzer vich zis consignment of Pakistani Basmati Rice mixt mit mice schidt has been shipped to us, to our legal department. Our Legal Department advises zat zair is nusing mentioned zairin by vich the Rice vee receive must to be mixt mit mice schidt. We have then proceeded to employ very costly German Labourmen und labourvemen to separate zee rice from zee mice schidt vich it is mixt mit. We now haf zee Rice in Separate Bags und zee Mice Schidt in zee other separate bags. Pleaz advise if vee should : Keep zee rice vich vee haf paid for and return to you zee mice schidt vich we haf not paid for. or Keep the mice schidt vich vee haf not paid for and return to you zee rice vich vee haf paid for und you will return to us zee money vich vee haf paid you for zee rice wizout mixing mit zee mice schidt. or Mix zee rice mit zee mice schidt vich is now in separate bags und return zee whole schiting lot to you und you will return to us zee money vich vee haf paid you for zee rice wizout mixing mit mice schidt. Pleaz tell us vaat to do as vee vant to do rite in zis matter. Copy : ------- Grain Brokers Ltd., London Copy : ----Association, London The Lotastaanis are of course : pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 15 2003, 08:12 PM
[url]******** edited******** [url] ZAKI Posted: Dec 15 2003, 07:36 AM CAPTAIN Group: Members Posts: 468 Member No.: 1784 Joined: 5-June 03 Hi Guys i know Pakistan is 803940 sq KM long. (Some sites says 796096 sq km) I want to know How much Long is Pakistan in KM or Miles.... i don't wanna know in Square Kilometers So if anyone of you knows then plz tell me... pakee.gif I searched alot from Internet but couldn't find the answer... plz you guys knows then plz tell me Thankyou Very Much.... Cheers
Posted by: vishal Dec 15 2003, 11:47 PM
why Indian govt. officially condemned attack on mushy? Anyone have solid reasons behind it? huh.gif (plz no guesses)
Posted by: Mudy Dec 15 2003, 11:55 PM
Vishal, They can't throw party, but yes they can say man specool.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 15 2003, 11:57 PM LAHORE:Talking from Jaddah on telephone to his former political secretary Mushtaq Ali Tahir Kheli, PML-N Quaid and former premier Nawaz Sharif said on Sunday that erecting of a fence by India on the Line of Control (LoC) proves that Musharraf sponsored Jamali government has sold Kashmir to New Delhi and Gen Musharraf with his ill-conceived policies have made Pakistan’s autonomy a question mark. He said, he was shocked to hear that FBI agents had taken custody of scientists and engineers of Kahuta Research Plant for investigation without prior intimation to agencies concerned in Pakistan. He accused Gen Musharraf of implementing the agenda of his foreign mentors. Replying to a question, he said his party respected the army but opposed those generals who were working against the interest of Pakistan. He vowed to continue the struggle for democracy till the ousting of autocratic rulers. Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz stalwarts urged the leaders of both Muslim League and People Party to set aside their petty differences and wage a joint struggle with the Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy platform to save Pakistan from the sellers of Kashmir. Krishana, deleted duplicate post
Posted by: Mudy Dec 16 2003, 12:19 PM
Pindi blast probe report may not be made public: FO By Mariana Baabar ISLAMABAD: Pakistan says it is not in a position to confirm whether the investigative report, regarding the terrorist attack on Sunday, in which President General Pervez Musharraf and his entourage luckily escaped unhurt, would ever be made public. "The focus is on the inquiry. We are conducting a comprehensive inquiry. At this stage the government cannot comment whether this report would be made public. We are presently concentrating on the ongoing investigations. It was a condemnable act and everyone has condemned this heinous crime in which thankfully the president escaped (unhurt). This is good news," Masood Khan, spokesman at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, told a weekly press briefing. Several calls have been made to the president from world capitals but the spokesman said he could not say offhand, which these leaders were. However, at the time, he said New Delhi had not contacted the president. He said this terrorist act in Rawalpindi would have no negative impact on the Saarc summit to be held next month. The arrest of former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein will have no effect either, on Pakistan’s policy of sending/not sending its troops to Iraq, he said.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 16 2003, 12:20 PM
Bin Laden, Omar won't be taken alive-Pakistan cleric By Mike Collett-White KARACHI, Dec 16 (Reuters) - Saddam Hussein's capture leaves two household names on the U.S. "terror" wanted list. But unlike Saddam, neither al Qaeda mastermind Osama bin Laden nor Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammad Omar is likely to be taken alive, a top Pakistani cleric with close ties to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime warned. And even if either were to be captured, it would do little to stem violence blamed on the groups, said Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, who knew Omar and called for a jihad, or holy war, against the United States during the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. "From what I know about these people you cannot arrest them alive," Shamzai told Reuters in an interview late on Monday in Pakistan's teeming southern port city of Karachi. The whereabouts of both bin Laden and Omar, the subjects of a massive two-year hunt by U.S.-led forces, remain a mystery. One-eyed Omar is believed to be alive and in hiding in Afghanistan, while bin Laden is thought to be somewhere along the rugged Afghan-Pakistan frontier. "Saddam was a person who only worried about his own life," Shamzai said. "But Mullah Omar and Osama are people who believe in an ideology." Surrounded in his apartment by religious texts, the stout, white-bearded cleric who runs religious seminaries for 15,000 students, said the guerrilla movements launched by the two men would not die out. "Even if you (Western) people manage to arrest them, the Taliban and al Qaeda movements will not end...They are not fighting for personal rule. Their movements will not die out." A rising tide of violence in Afghanistan since early August has been linked to remnants of the Taliban, who have regrouped after their ignominious retreat from Kabul in late 2001. More than 400 people have been killed in the recent fighting, including foreign and Afghan soldiers, aid workers, civilians and many rebels. "HATRED" OF U.S. POLICIES Shamzai also said hatred for the United States was driving the resistance in Iraq, not Saddam. "What is happening in Iraq is not out of love for Saddam Hussein, but out of hatred for the Americans, the occupying force," he said. "It is wrong to say that Saddam Hussein's supporters are fighting the Americans. The entire Islamic youth hates American policies." Shamzai predicted that casualties among the 12,000 U.S.-led troops in Afghanistan would rise. U.S. forces suffered minimal losses during the Afghan war in 2001, fighting it mainly from the air supported by allied local ground forces. "While the Americans are in the air, they suffer no losses, but on the ground they have started to feel the pinch. Now the losses seem small, but the numbers will keep on rising," he said. Taliban officials say Omar is issuing orders to a secretive 10-man leadership council that is coordinating the insurgency against foreign forces and Afghanistan's U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 17 2003, 12:44 AM
How to arrest dictator without his knowledge? wink.gif Western security agencies’ Offer help for tough security for Musharraf(Updated at 2030 PST) By Zia Iqbal Shahid BRUSSELS: Condemning this weekend’s abortive attempt to assassinate President Pervez Musharraf, several western security agencies have made fresh offers to government of Pakistan to provide practical support in beefing up the existing security arrangements for President General Pervez Musharraf and other VIPs in Pakistan, a European source told The News. The western security agencies, according to the source, have sent messages to their Pakistani counterparts, emphasizing the need of putting Musharraf’s security on a very high alert. Such an emphatic message was also conveyed to the government of Pakistan by a western security agency in October this year, after Al-Arabiya news channel aired an audiotape attributed to Osama bin Laden’s second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri. Based on several regular intelligence reports, the international security agencies once again are reported to have informed the concerned authorities in Pakistan that international terrorist gangs have placed President Pervez Musharraf on their hit lists because of what they describe as "his sincerity towards the international war against terrorism". On behalf of their respective governments they have also conveyed to the government of Pakistan that "It is the responsibility of all the countries committed to fighting terrorism to provide maximum possible help to Pakistani law enforcers active in frustrating the designs of gangs of international terrorists," a security agent said
Posted by: Reggie Dec 17 2003, 07:09 PM
Duirng the SAARC meeting, India should demand that Pakistan follow Bhutan's lead in killing and smoking out anti-India jehadis towards India into the waiting insas of the Indian army.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 18 2003, 12:55 AM
frusty.gif When Indians will learn??,001300270001.htm A day ahead of the talks between officials of India and Pakistan on resumption of Samjhauta Express between the two countries, Islamabad on Wednesday said that it has received positive signals from New Delhi that the train services will start by the end of this year or at the latest by the first week of January. "Pakistan Government received positive signals from Indian Government for the resumption of Samjhauta Express that would start positively by the end of this year or at the latest by first week of January next year," Pakistan Railway Additional General Manager Muhhamed Iqbal Khatri told reporters after crossing over to India leading his country's delegation for the talks. He said it was only after observing all the positive signals from the Indian Government that Pakistan Government has sent its four member delegation including technical head of Railway to participate in the two-day meeting beginning in Delhi on Thursday. Khatri said Pakistan Government is very keen for the early resumption of Samjhauta train so that masses of both the nations could maintain ties as hundreds of people from both sides are facing hardships due to absence of train service between the two neighbouring nations.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 18 2003, 05:27 AM With the latest launch of the Russian co-produced ‘BrahMos’ India seems to have completed missile proliferation in their armed forces triad – and every service has got appropriate share of the ballistic missiles. I am not very sure of the Pakistani posture/response to the successful launch of the ‘BrahMos’ which surely must be a matter of concern here. It appears that Pakistan does not have a missile of comparable accuracy and potential (as BrahMos) – which can travel at the speed of Three Mach and has a very elaborate (probably multiple) guidance system. Pakistan could possible muster some old French Excepts* and Harpoons (and possibly an unnamed Chinese missile) for anti-ship engagements. Here lies a very great asymmetry – and for that matter Pakistan is quite used to such asymmetries. [/b]Here are some basic facts of the two antagonists. India has seven times the population and four times the land area of Pakistan. In 2002, the India’s GDP was more than eight times that of Pakistan, and the Indian military enjoys a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage in numbers of soldiers and conventional arms.[/b] See CIA World Factbook which is available at : [/b]The missile race is real and a part of the missile envy – in which India is more proactive than Pakistan mainly due to shortage of resources and scientific expertise of Pakistan.[/b] This envy is well described and perceived in USA where the year 2001 Defence Review indicated “that Indian and Pakistani strategic programmes continue to be driven by the perception of each other’s effort.... and the two countries are in a period of accelerated nuclear weapons and missile development that may be termed as a ‘slow speed’ arms race.” Here is yet another telling assessment and in 2002, the Director Central Intelligence told the US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that, “Both India and Pakistan are working on the doctrine and tactics for more advanced nuclear weapons, producing fissile material, and increasing their nuclear stockpiles... Both countries also continue development of long range nuclear capable ballistic missiles, and plan to field cruise missiles with land-attack capability.” Here is yet another facet of this missile envy gleaned from the CRS Report No RL 32115 of 17 October 2003 which states: “Apparent tit-for-tat test in April 1999 and again in March 2003 have been viewed as evidence that an action-reaction dynamic is indeed at work. Many analysts argue that overt nuclear weaponisation by either side – most especially of their ballistic missiles could be highly destabilising... if significant nuclear missile forces are deployed in the absence of secure command and control structures. If these forces are perceived as being vulnerable to attack, one or both sides might adopt a launch-on-warning status, making conflict escalation even more difficult to govern.” – See Neil Joeck, ‘Maintaining Nuclear Stability in South Asia’ New York Oxford University Press – 1997. India clearly wants to be recognised as a great power and strategic competitor with China – and therefore a key variable in the future evolution of South Asian nuclear proliferation is India’s strategic intention in relation to China. It is generally felt that if India tries to compete with China in this mad race, China may like Pakistan to achieve some parity with India in the missile race. This again will accelerate missile proliferation and full blown arms race The missile race being what it is – and what is planned for it – there are two camps on this dismal issue of proliferation – i.e. ‘the pessimists’ and the ‘optimists.’ Proliferation ‘optimists’ operate under the logic of deterrence – wherein the possession of nuclear weapons by both sides of an adversarial interstate relationship can be expected to produce stability. Put more simply and in mundane language “mutual deterrence obtains when both sides believe that the costs of aggression or escalation are likely to outweigh the potential benefits of such action.” The other camp i.e. the ‘pessimists’ take the view that the spread of nuclear weapons is inherently destabilising and dangerous – and nuclear dynamics in the developing world are unlikely to recreate the Cold War pattern. “Political and technological factors in the conflict prone areas are seen to create conditions where nuclear weapons will not produce stability and the introduction of more nuclear weapons will significantly increase the likelihood that these weapons will be used. See Scott Sagan “The Perils of Proliferation in South Asia” Michael Chambers Edition – South Asia in 2020. And then there are analysts who have referred to the brief but bloody Kargil conflict of 1999 as evidence that South Asia’s strategic arsenals do not contribute to stability and may lead to the use of nuclear weapons. And finally the Indo-Pakistan proliferation may be likened to the Cold War scenario – but the controlling factors in this proliferation are different and it would be ideal if arms control is effected unilaterally and surgical reactions are made by both sides ushering an era of peace and tranquillity. The example of the INF Treaty is there, and it has worked. Both India and Pakistan claim to seek the use of ‘minimum credible deterrence’ – and what it implies is not quite definable. Surely this stance can never bring about an effective arms control in South Asia – the CBMs presently being advocated by both sides notwithstanding. E-mail queries and comments to: Key to Lotastaani Spellings : *Exocet It is good to know that the Lotastaanis have finally realized that India’s GDP is more than Eight Times that of Lotastaan’s and as such vis-à-vis India it is time for Lotastaan to forget its H & D Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 18 2003, 05:37 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 18 2003, 12:55 AM)
frusty.gif When Indians will learn??,001300270001.htm
Mudy : Indians will never learn. The Lotastaani Minister Paani Poori commented on India’s offers for India-Pakistan Transport Services by asking Is the Srinagar-Muzafferabad Service is so that the “Terrorists” can travel in comfort The way Air India and every Indian Leader hankered for Lotastaan to lift the Air Over Flight Ban because it was hurting India has proved to be an empty lie. India saves about USD 10 Million. Lotastaan saves over USD 450 Million. The Indian government is hell bent upon providing the Lotastaani Terrorists as many Comfortable Travelling Options for coming to India by Air, by Rail LaWhore-Atari & LaWhore-New Delhi as well as Sindh to Rajasthan, Bus Service LaWhore-New Delhi and Muzafferabad-Srinagar finally Ferry Service Karachi to Mumbai (this way they will have a far bigger Free Accompanied Baggage Allowance) etc. Has it ever occurred to the Indian Government why it is only Pakistan that keeps asking for Air, Rail, Road and Ferry Services? Yes Sir. The Indians will never learn. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 18 2003, 05:53 AM
thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif I still can't make out why India is providing so much goodies to Terrorist State of Pakistan. 5 star comforts to terrosrist, now joy ride to Srinagar, Bombay and Delhi. Bombay and Delhi are already infested by Bangla Deshi and renegede Pakis. Crime rate is down after police started arresting them. Now they will back to business. Sick and tried, just to please some section of society Govt can go to any extent to harm law abiding citizens and India's internal security. furious.gif I don't think Paki Army will stop its favorite passtime, terrorising Indian citizens.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 18 2003, 07:46 AM
State of Islam in Pakistan is ‘troublesome’ WASHINGTON: The state of Islam in Pakistan has been described as “troublesome” with the country moving towards increasing radicalisation. Addressing the Middle East Institute, Dr Akbar Ahmed, Ibn Khaldun professor of Islamic studies at the American University, said religiously motivated acts, including the assassinations of sectarian rivals while they were praying in mosques, the killing of a member of parliament in Karachi and the murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl were indicative of the “troublesome state of Islam” in Pakistan today. He said to understand this violence, fundamental questions about the role of Islam in Pakistan must be addressed. The answer to the question as to who is defining Islam in this way mirrors a historical cause-and-effect relationship that explains the reasons behind the radical view of the religion throughout Pakistan’s domestic scene. Dr Ahmed said Pakistan’s prominence in the Muslim world stems from its large population, its nuclear status, its post-9/11 role in association with the United States, but most importantly from the perception held by most of its people since the country’s creation that it is an Islamic state. Pakistan’s creation, he added, was the result of a movement based on a clear Islamic vision and so the people of Pakistan continue to feel responsible for defining, guiding and shaping Islam. The fundamental question, however, for Pakistanis has been what version of Islam is real Islam. Each group has its own definition of Islam and there is no consensus on the “final version.” Going back into history, he said that Islam was first brought to Southeast Asia in the 8th century by Arabs who employed the doctrine of Ijtihad to reapply and adapt the religion’s fundamental principles to other cultures. The inherent values of empathy and compassion in Ijtihad allowed for these civilisations to coexist, each respecting the other’s culture and traditions. Citing the example of Aurangzeb and Dara Shikoh, he pointed out that while one espoused an exclusivist interpretation of Islam, the other advocated a mystical synthesis of the religion with the Hindusim. “This story represents a much larger clash within Islam,” he added. Dr Ahmed said the “exclusivist” approach to Islam emerges when the Pakistani society faces a threat and is put on the defensive. The same tension, he stressed, was reflected in the Pakistan movement. The Quaid-i-Azam, the father of Pakistan, favoured the enlightened “Aligarh approach” but adopted a more exclusivist one as the movement struggled for success. He said the exclusivist model that had prevailed throughout Pakistani history, including today. The prevailing view in Pakistan that Islam is under siege is crystallized by the country’s tense relationship with India, its non-Muslim neighbour. The “inclusionist” model of Islam has almost entirely faded in terms of state and official interpretation. This exclusivist model is marked by intolerance and strong anti-Westernism. He warned that Pakistani society would become more and more radicalised because the population believes that Islam is under siege. Even a known moderate like Dr Javed Iqbal said recently that Bush is the “only terrorist.” —Khalid Hasan
Posted by: Mudy Dec 18 2003, 10:47 PM
Till SAARC summit promise by new swine in neighborhood,001300270001.htm
Posted by: Viren Dec 18 2003, 10:52 PM
Pakistan ready to drop demand for plebiscite in Kashmir: Musharraf
Like it matters pakee.gif Have seen that these rants on plebiscite at every international forum has never got them anything till date - so what are they offering us dry.gif Let 'em start with a plebiscite in Islamabad - that could be a good start wink.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 18 2003, 11:09 PM
LINGUISTIC CLEANSING: The Sad Fate of Punjabi in Pakistan By Abbas Zaidi Punjabi is the mother tongue of well over 120 million people. It is the language of two groups: the Sikhs of East Punjab in India (who use Sanskritised script), and the Punjabis of West Punjab in Pakistan (who use Persianised script). The two groups cannot read or write each other's writing, but their oral communicability is one hundred percent. Before the partition of India in 1947 these two peoples used to live side by side. Some of the richest poetical traditions--the Sufi and romantic--of the Indian-Pakistani subcontinent are to be found in Punjabi. The immortal Punjabi love epic Hir-Ranjha is the acme of what Matthew Arnold called "high seriousness". And yet, Punjabi is also the most jokes-inclusive language of the Subcontinent. Even the non-native speakers of Punjabi accept that it is an exceptionally rich language: just one expression couched in the right tonal emphasis or written from the right perspective is worth scores of locutions, and the same expression can convey a variety of meaning in the same and different contexts if given the right twist. It is a language of nuances and double entendres. Sometimes the two meanings are contradictory (e.g., "X is a healthy man" or "X's figure is athletic" can mean just the opposite.). Sometimes one meaning is wit-packed and the second is serious (e.g., "The mullahs efficiently carry out their sacred duties in the mosque" can also mean they do wicked sexual things there). Most of the time one meaning is an ordinary, intended statement, while the other is playfully sexual (e.g., "Shall I pour [milk/water]?" secondarily refers to penetration, and more). If someone wants to experience synaesthesia, let him learn Punjabi. Recently I met a Sikh in Brunei. He was in his mid-20s, born in Malaysia, and had never been to the place of his origin, i.e., the Indian Punjab. But he could speak perfect Punjabi. He said to me, "If a Sikh cannot speak Punjabi, he is a fake Sikh." And yet, Pakistani Punjabis must be the only linguistic group in the world that has a dismissive--even derogatory--attitude towards their own language. I have lived in or visited a number of countries. I have talked to countless Punjabis both in Pakistan and outside. Most of them, Pakistani Punjabis wherever they may actually reside, are willingly, even proudly, dumping their own language in favor of Urdu. The most aggressive anti-Punjabi-ists come from the educated and semi-educated classes. As soon as they acquire the most minimal academic advancement, the first thing they do is jettison their natural language. I have never seen or heard of an educated, or even semi-educated, Punjabi parent who is willing to communicate with his or her own child in their native tongue. Rather, they strongly discourage and often rebuke their children if they even suspect that they might be talking to other children in Punjabi, because speaking Punjabi is considered a mark of crudeness and bad manners. A young child speaking Punjabi is at best an amusing curiosity for adult Punjabis. In a posh social or academic gathering anyone speaking that language is either trying to be funny or himself soon becomes the butt of jokes. A poet who writes in Punjabi finds an audience predisposed only to ribald entertainment. Pakistani Punjabis' negative attitude towards their language can be demonstrated by the fact that there is not a single newspaper or magazine published in Punjabi for the 60 million-plus Punjabi speakers. Historically, every Punjabi journalistic venture has died soon after its launching. The latest venture was a daily newspaper, Sajjan ("Friend"), edited and published by Hussain Naqi, an Urdu-speaking Indian emigrant. It only lasted a few months. Yet, all the regional and provincial languages like Sindhi and Pushto have a proud history of publication. Sindhi, a minor language compared with Punjabi, can boast scores of daily newspapers and periodicals. Yet, while Pakistani Punjabis can certainly speak their language, they can neither read nor write it. I estimate that not more than two percent of Punjabis can read or write Punjabi. Add to this the fact that, after Urdu speakers, Punjabis on average are the most literate group in Pakistan and you see what irony there is. Consider the following breakdown of the speakers of the various Pakistani languages: Punjabi 48.2 % Pushto 13.1 % Sindhi 11.8 % Seraiki 9.8 % Urdu 7.6 % Other 9.5 % What can one make of this situation? Is it not a linguistic schizophrenia on the part of Punjabis? Urdu is regarded as the "correct language", the language of taste and class, by the Punjabis themselves. Quite apart from what others think, it is they, the Punjabis, who think that Punjabi is an "indecent" or "vulgar" language. Some of them say this is because of the Punjabi accent, the rude way individual words and expressions are uttered, or because Punjabi is the language of the illiterate and the uncouth; or because there are countless swear words and double entendres in Punjabi; or because Punjabi is just plain déclassé. Hence, Punjabi has multiple semiotic indictments against it even before it is expressed. And yet, a language's capacity for double entendre is actually at the heart of its expressiveness and power, making these objections to Punjabi as ridiculous as General Franco's charge that Basque was a "language of dogs". The only places in Pakistan where Punjabi is uninhibitedly spoken are the so-called backward rural areas or city slums. These misfortunate people look up to prosperous educated Punjabis--the landed aristocrats, industrialists, the yuppies and the bourgeoisie--as role models. As they become educated they discard their mother tongue along with their uncouth dress and manners. Hence the formula seems simple enough: the more educated a Punjabi is, the more anti-Punjabi and Punjabi-less he or she becomes. Ironically, the illiterate Punjabis are the most genuine Punjabis. The responsibility for such a state of affairs lies with the Punjabis themselves, especially the "Wake Up Punjabi" slogan-mongers. Is it not significant that in Pakistan's history no Punjabi leader of stature has addressed a mass rally in Punjabi? Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan's current and twice-elected prime minister, is a Punjabi. It was he who some time back raised the "Wake Up Punjabi" slogan while challenging then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's supremacy. Yet his track record on Punjabi is as bad as any other Punjabi leader's. Bhutto, who was also twice elected prime minister, is a Sindhi. She always talks to the Sindhis in Sindhi. Similarly, Urdu-, Pushto-, Seraiki-, and Baluchi-speaking leaders and intellectuals always use their own languages when talking to their people either in private or in public. Sindhi, Pushto and Urdu are compulsory languages for Sindhi, Pathan and Mohajir students, and the Baluchis are working hard to evolve a script for their own language. A number of official activities are transacted in these languages. The Punjabis are the largest linguistic group in Pakistan. They are also the most powerful political and economic group. Pakistan is an agrarian society, and the Punjab feeds the whole of Pakistan ("Punjab" means "the land of five rivers"). But there is not a single school where Punjabi is taught. Nor has Punjabi ever been part of the school syllabi. Pre-university as well as college courses in the Punjab are taught in Urdu. In a majority of cases, the characters, their names, and the situations projected in narratives, poems and social descriptions are based on the culture of Urdu speakers and have nothing to do with the Punjab. There are a number of universities in the Punjab, but it is only in the University of Lahore that a small MA Punjabi department exists, and even then the students admitted are more interested in finding a cheap residence in Lahore than in studying Punjabi. The books published in Punjabi in any given year can be counted on one hand. Compared with scores of Urdu, Sindhi, Pushto, and other minority languages (e.g., Seraiki and Kashmiri), there is not a single full-fledged Punjabi research institution in Pakistan except for a misshapen Punjabi Adabi Board which is notable principally for its inactivity. The few research works in Punjabi owe their existence to individual efforts. One may argue that this state of affairs can be explained by economics, but why does economics affect only Punjabi in this way? The average Pakistani Punjabi would answer my questions thusly: (i) The reason the Sikhs have never discarded their language is that their holy book, the Garanth, is in Punjabi; (ii) we must use Urdu because it is our national language. To which I reply: (i) The Koran is in Arabic, but its readers have not dumped their own native languages simply because of that fact. Moreover, the Punjabis, along with other Pakistanis, never learn Arabic; they read the Koran without understanding a word of Arabic. And: (ii) All the different ethnic groups in Pakistan know Urdu, but they have not jettisoned their own languages for the sake of a national language whose native speakers make up less than eight percent of the general population. Language has played a very significant role in Pakistan's history, a fact which makes the Punjabi question all the more ironic and tragic. When Pakistan was created in 1947 as East and West Pakistan, it was claimed by its then rulers--who were Urdu speaking emigrants from India--that Pakistan would last till the Day of Judgement with Allah's blessing: two (East and West) wings, one religion, one nation, one country, and one national language-Urdu. But the blessing was not realized, and before it could celebrate its first anniversary the whole of East Pakistan was rocked to its foundations with bloody "language riots". The Bengalis refused to accept Urdu because it was an imposed, not their own, language. They said they would lose their identity without their mother tongue. In turn, they were dubbed "anti-Pakistan" for their opposition to Urdu. The pro-Urdu lobby in West Pakistan then played the Islamic card: Urdu amounted to Islamic identity. Anti-Urdu was anti- Islamic. Calling the Bengalis anti-Islam, the religious scholars of West Pakistan argued that Islamic identity should transcend Bengali identity if the Bengalis were to consider themselves true Muslims. But the language of theology could not overcome the theology of language, and in 1971, before Pakistan could celebrate its silver jubilee, East Pakistan had become Bangladesh, "Land of the Bengali-speaking People". And as the Bengalis were about to start preparations to celebrate their first independence anniversary, the province of Sindh became a scene of language riots between the speakers of Sindhi and Urdu, shaking the very foundations of the newly-elected government of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the most popular and powerful leader (he was both the country's president and chief martial law administrator) in Pakistan's history. Bhutto appeared on TV and spoke in English, Sindhi and Urdu. He joined his hands together and, pointing them towards the people said, "For God's sake, let it (i.e., language rioting) go!" Again the religious scholars played the Islamic card. One of them said, "The end of Urdu will mean the end of Pakistan and Islam." The province of Sindh has continued to be a hotbed of ethnic violence between Sindhi and Urdu speakers. Sindhi nationalists want a separate homeland, Sindhudesh, exclusively for speakers of Sindhi, while Urdu speakers threaten that any "conspiracy" against "Pakistan and Urdu" would meet with an "iron fist". They themselves had planned to establish "Jinnahpur", an Urdu-speaking province within Sindh itself. Their scheme was thwarted by an army action against the Mohajirs in 1992. Since Pakistan's creation, the Pathans have been lobbying for Pakhtoonistan, the "Land of the Pushto speakers". Nowadays they talk about separating from Pakistan itself and forming a greater Pakhtoonistan with Afghanistan, a majority Pathan country, even though severe differences exist between medieval religious obscurantist Talibaans and so-called liberals. The nationalist movement in the South of the Punjab is based upon the Seraiki language. Other examples can be multiplied. Yet, no similar debate exists amongst the Punjabis about Punjabi. They are secure in the belief that their language is merely a source of embarrassment rather than of a proud common identity. Amrita Pretam, a Punjabi poet and fiction writer, once invoked the soul of Waris Shah (the Hir-Ranjha poet) when hundreds of thousands of Punjabi women had been raped by their own countrymen during India's partition. One is tempted to again invoke the name of this great Punjabi bard whose language is being consigned to an historical black hole by the Pakistani Punjabis themselves. What are the inheritors of the language of Waris Shah and numerous other Punjabi literary titans, both inside and outside Pakistan, doing about this shameful neglect of the Punjabi language? Will Punjabi ultimately become like Latin, a dead language with no one left who can actually speak it? We find throughout history that dictators who want to terminate a target group are assiduous in their attempt to first efface the language of that group. Pakistani Punjabis are their own dictators. If they continue to treat their language the way they are doing at present, in future there will be a strange, baffling mass of "ethnic" Punjabis who will not know their own language. Or, if somehow miraculously Punjabi isn't lost in Pakistan, it will become at best a pidgin. Love for one's native tongue is a universal phenomenon. At minimum, a language is a mark of personal as well as national identity. It's a glue that holds its speakers together as a people. This is why language has been so pivotal in the history of nations, a stronger bond than religion, land and even race. At present, written and spoken Punjabi is heavily punctuated with Urdu words and phrases which are foreign both semantically and phonetically. Mohajir (i.e., the Urdu-speaking people) and Punjabi temperaments are poles apart in terms of cultural values and attitudes. Many would argue that Islam is the common bond among all Pakistani people, which in the course of time will transcend all the differences. I am not sure this is true, but what, however sadly, I am sure of is that at the rate things are going, Punjabi will have disappeared before the end of the next century.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 18 2003, 11:13 PM;jsessionid=WNPDVKTKUF0ZECRBAE0CFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=4014016 Thu December 18, 2003 06:51 AM ET By Simon Denyer ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan offered to drop a 50-year-old demand for a U.N.-mandated plebiscite over divided Kashmir and meet India "halfway" in a bid for peace on the subcontinent. President Pervez Musharraf's proposal opened a new window of opportunity to address one of the world's most dangerous disputes between the nuclear-armed neighbors, political commentators said, even if massive hurdles remain on the path to peace. All eyes will now be on the planned visit of Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee to Islamabad for a South Asian summit in early January. In an interview less than three weeks before the summit, Musharraf said late Wednesday he was prepared to be "bold and flexible" in an attempt to resolve the dispute over Kashmir. "If we want to resolve this issue, both sides need to talk to each other with flexibility, coming beyond stated positions, meeting halfway somewhere," he said. "We are prepared to rise to the occasion, India has to be flexible also." For more than 50 years, Pakistan has insisted on a plebiscite to allow people in the divided Himalayan region of Kashmir to decide between joining India or Pakistan, a position backed by a series of U.N. Security Council resolutions in the late 1940s. "We are for United Nations Security Council Resolutions," Musharraf said. "However, now we have left that aside." India controls around 45 percent of Muslim-majority Kashmir, and insists it became an integral part of its territory after the princely state's Hindu ruler opted to join India after partition of the subcontinent in 1947. Former Indian foreign secretary J.N. Dixit said Musharraf's offer marked an "important shift in policy." "He is signifying there will be flexibility in the Pakistani negotiating position," said Dixit, who has also served as India's envoy to Pakistan. "We should be able to respond with flexibility and see if we can find a middle ground." In Islamabad, Samina Ahmed of the International Crisis Group think-tank said the Pakistani military realized it had to give ground if it was to retain any sympathy abroad. If they keep on insisting on a plebiscite, it is not going anywhere, and they are also losing ground to India internationally," she said. "In a way, it is a realization that if they keep on asking for everything they won't get anything." The neighbors have fought two of their three wars over Kashmir and went to the brink of another in 2002. Relations thawed this year and the two armies agreed to a cease-fire last month along the front line in Kashmir. Musharraf said this represented a "very real opportunity" to make peace, but warned India not to throw away the chance by continuing to spurn offers for talks. "The basis of everything, the basis of a reduction in moving forward on a process of dialogue," he said. "If that political dialogue doesn't come about, who wins and who loses? It is the moderates who lose and the extremists who win, and that is exactly what has been happening." Musharraf refused to be drawn on how to settle the Kashmir dispute, but said any solution must be acceptable Kashmiris. And he warned India his flexibility should not be seen as weakness. "I'll be bold in moving it forward, but if somebody thinks I'll be bold to give up -- no sir, I'm not giving up at all. "I will not submit to extremist views in Pakistan so I'll be bold to that extent, but nobody in India should ever think that I'm a person who is going to give up," he said. KEY SUMMIT Musharraf said Vajpayee should not miss the chance to discuss Kashmir during January's summit, but said he would not be pleading for an audience with the Indian leader. "We have come to a stage where there is a thaw in relations, where there is expectation on both sides in the people," he said. "If the leadership doesn't rise to the occasion, it is a pity and I think we'll disappoint our public again." Analysts warned against expecting too much from the summit, with progress always more difficult in the glare of the media spotlight. Instead, there are hopes the two sides might begin a lower-level dialogue in February or March. But the path to peace looks a long and dangerous one. Mistrust and outright hostility run deep between the South Asian rivals, and Musharraf's anger at his arch-foe often boiled over in the interview, as he railed against New Delhi's intransigence and the "arrogance of power." "Unfortunately, magnanimity has to come from the bigger and the stronger," he said. "But they don't show any magnanimity, they lack magnanimity," Pakistan's military ruler said. He also criticized India for taking advantage of the cease-fire to accelerate construction of a fence along the Line of Control dividing Kashmir, a move he said showed "insincerity" about seeking a peaceful solution. Former Pakistani foreign secretary Tanvir Ahmed Khan said it was far from clear if India was in a mood to compromise. "India is under no great pressure to make any significant shifts in its posture on Kashmir," he said. "It is by no means certain India would engage in a sustained dialogue on Kashmir. Their calculation is that they have the upper hand." Commentators say there is no guarantee the cease-fire will hold through next spring when snows melt on the mountain passes and the Muslim rebels who have been battling security forces in Indian-held Kashmir since 1989 traditionally try to cross in. With elections looming in India next year, India's room for manoeuvre looks limited, analysts say. Musharraf, meanwhile, is fighting his own battle to win domestic political legitimacy four years after seizing power in a bloodless coup. "Both sides have been using this issue for so long for domestic politics, to do a radical U-turn they would have to prepare public opinion," Ahmed said. "A road map is still a long, long way off." (Additional reporting by Simon Cameron-Moore in Islamabad and Sanjeev Miglani in New Delhi) Is the Indian Government going to ask Lotastaan to vacate the Lotastaani Illegally Occupied Part of Kashmir or is the Indian Government going to hand over the Kashmir Valley, Fully or Partly, so that Riff Raff and his Lotastaani Terrorists can claim an Islamic Victory over Kufr India? Cheers
Posted by: vishal Dec 19 2003, 12:59 AM
i think we are going to give autonomy(as indian state) to kashmir and ask(force through unkle) pukis to accept and settle over it and make it border.thats all. as far as pok goes,its not possible bcoz unkle won't allow any demographic change in south asia bcoz unkle is hardly busy in iraq and north korea and osama laden. i don't think US want to afford any change in their south asia policy by allowing india to force pukki for pok. as far as ABV goes, he is acting mixed.for him, greater enemy seems tobe uk not pukki who created this problem 5.5 decades ago.He is thinking in long long term,to make india economic power to take care of those uk,france who ditched india(its just my guess)
Posted by: Mudy Dec 19 2003, 07:13 AM
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Dec 19 2003, 09:23 AM pakee.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 19 2003, 10:55 AM,001300270001.htm .. Western diplomats say Musharraf is also concerned about his place in history and doesn't want to look the passive, reluctant party. ... His Afghan meddling has cost him much US goodwill. After grappling with Pakistan's economy, Musharraf understands better what India's economic boom means to the regional balance of power. Finally, last year's Kashmir elections and the splitting of the Hurriyat have made the likelihood of a pro-Pakistani plebiscite vote nearly zero.
Posted by: Krishna Dec 19 2003, 12:55 PM
QUOTE (vishal @ Dec 18 2003, 01:29 PM)
i think we are going to give autonomy(as indian state) to kashmir and ask(force through unkle) pukis to accept and settle over it and make it border.thats all.
This is what we should do, (I'm short on time, so just gonna make a few points.)
  • If the Valley muslims don't want to be a part of India, they can migrate to Pakistan / POK. Not a single square inch would be allowed to break off, come what may. Take it or Leave it!
  • Get rid off Article 370.
  • Migrate all the Hindu Pandits, along with some of the Biharis to the valley. Jammu & Ladakh are already cool, so no problem there.
  • All friday preachings banned 'temporarily.'
In the mean time, if war happens, TAKE BACK POK. Bahoot ho gaya roj roj ki kich kich!
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 19 2003, 03:27 PM RAWALPINDI, Dec 18: The army team investigating the blast incident in which President Musharraf's convoy narrowly escaped , has taken into custody all the law enforcement agencies' officials who had been on the VVIP route duty on that occasion for questioning, a security source said on Thursday. All police officials, who had been deployed on the president's route, Special Branch officials, traffic police staff and intelligence sleuths are being questioned by the investigating team. The source said the number of security officials, including the police personnel, still being questioned is more than 50. "Some of the police and security branch officials have been directed to appear before the probe team early morning and are later permitted to leave at night," the source revealed. Nothing special has so far emerged from investigation, which could lead the probe team to trace the clue to the terrorists. The source said that five high explosives were detonated seconds after President Musharraf's car crossed the Leh bridge. Action against the officials who had been looking after the security arrangements is likely to be taken after the investigation into the blast is complete, the source said. He said besides other people, statements of the Special Branch officials and some officers of the police department had also been recorded by the army team. The source said bomb disposal experts are still trying to determine the "explosive" used in Sunday's bomb blast. According to security sources, the bridges located on the VVIP routes are always considered highly sensitive and they are strictly guarded. In a related move the IGP, Punjab, Masood Shah, and the DIG, Rawalpindi, Israr Ahmed, held a meeting with the senior military officials at 10-corps Headquarters on Thursday and reviewed the security arrangements and progress made in the bomb blast case. Meanwhile, in another move lights have been installed under the bridges in Rawalpindi and Islamabad. While police patrolling have also been intensified around the bridges. These lights are being provided so that in future the Bombers will be able to fix the Bombs properly in place – the previous time they were groping in the dark. pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Viren Dec 19 2003, 11:40 PM
Posted by: Mudy Dec 20 2003, 06:02 AM
Oops, all world newspapers are prasing and singing love songs for Mushy and within 24hrs, tantrums,001300270001.htm
Posted by: Mudy Dec 20 2003, 06:22 AM Change the Rupee into Riyal or Dinar Ahmed Quraishi laugh.gif Pakistan's suave envoy to Washington has discovered a bitter geographic truth that continues to escape our foreign policy community: That the Indian subcontinent - get ready for this one - is, well, Indian. It is not a 'Pak-Indo' subcontinent or 'Pakistan and India subcontinent'. It's just Indian, pure and simple. It has been and will be. Which is why 'South Asia', a term of recent coinage in world diplomacy and academia, refers almost exclusively to India and sub-Indian issues. And since many people insist on identifying Pakistan solely with 'South Asia', this country automatically becomes a sub-Indian question because South Asia is India. Forget about Nepal or Bhutan or Sri Lanka. They don't count, and if they do, it's only as different shades of the Indian culture, sort of a natural border of India outside its political borders. Anyone who disagrees with this truth should only look at the 'South Asia' study programmes in world universities. Pakistan unavoidably comes as a sub-Indian subject in most of these programmes and not as a stand-alone study area like Turkey or Iran or Afghanistan. But not anymore, hopefully, as an American university takes the unprecedented step of disengaging (read 'liberating') Pakistan from the academic clutches of Indian identity and hegemony. The School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University has recently launched a Pakistan Fund to support Pakistani scholars and Pakistan-specific research programs. In academic terms, this step will help break the decades-old tradition of treating Pakistan as a sub-Indian academic discipline. Ambassador Jehangir Ashraf Qazi, one of our smooth political operators with a distinctly globalist and non-South Asian aura, attended the fund's launching ceremony. In his brief remarks, he said something very interesting: "This [fund] is very important because South Asia is dominated by such a huge Indian presence that it tends to eclipse the voice of the other countries of the subcontinent even though these countries are very significant countries like Pakistan." This is a crucial realization. And it highlights a bigger problem: that Pakistan doesn't stand a chance of raising its head as a rising regional power, with its distinctive future, history, and culture, if the country remains forcibly stuck in an Indian-dominant South Asia. Lumping Pakistan in a South Asia that is dominated by a distinct Indian culture, race and history is not only a negation of Pakistan's distinct racial, cultural and historical character, but it also willingly puts Pakistan under Indian hegemony. Sri Lanka can feel comfortable with that. Pakistan shouldn't. This has not dawned yet on those who continue to stake a claim on an illusory 'Indo-Pak subcontinent' and refuse to acknowledge that 1947 was a clean break between us and the Indian landscape, ending our one thousand-year history of involvement with that region. The avoidance of becoming an Indian sidekick in international relations through assimilation into Indian-dominated South Asia is national security urgency for Pakistan. There is a concerted effort underway to turn Pakistan into an Indian satellite state. This effort is two-pronged: political and cultural. Politically, the South Asian regional forum known as SAARC is playing the role of the Trojan horse, while culturally, Islamabad's official policy of identifying Pakistan exclusively with South Asia is pushing its intelligentsia, singers, movie makers and musicians to see assimilating into India as the only way to international fame. In this context, visits to Pakistan by Indian filmmakers and artists and singers might be seen as part of so-called peace diplomacy. But another face to this process is that it's pushing Pakistan into the Indian cultural fold. There's no word to describe it except assimilation because there's no balance in it. It's just a one-way road, and it leads to India. Islamabad must follow the examples of Ankara and Tehran in this regard and not of Colombo and Katmandu. Turkey has three facets to its national identity. It's European, Middle Eastern, and Central Asian all at once. While it joins European institutions, it has also applied to join the Arab League (the League announced this month it is considering admitting both Turkey and Iran), and is a member of the Central Asian Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO).Foreign singers invited to perform in Ankara are sometimes European, sometimes Middle Eastern, and sometimes Central Asian. There's a balance in Turkey's national identity. Iran, too, is Middle Eastern and Central Asian at once while retaining its distinct Persian heritage. That's why Tehran has recently applied for membership in the Arab League, not because the league is such an attractive forum, but only to show that it shares a strong history and future with the Middle East. Tehran is also a member of ECO, making Central Asia an integral facet of its national identity. Recently, Tehran has launched Arabic-language satellite news channel to create influence in Muslim Gulf and Middle East. Likewise, Pakistan has three facets to its national identity. Islamabad shares a strong Central Asian heritage and adjoins that region through its northern and western borders and through membership in ECO. Pakistan also shares a strong bond with the Middle East, geographically, culturally, racially and historically, through borders with Iran; the modern Balochi culture born out of interaction with Gulf populations, and by the simple fact of having Pakistan's entire seashore facing the heart of the Arabian Sea. And last, the country shares long borders with India and a thousand-year history of Muslim domination of the Indian region. So there's an Indian element in its national character. Pakistan's national language best characterizes the three dimensions of its national identity. Urdu has a strong Persian, Arabic, Turkic, and Hindi components. Unfortunately, the last component seems to be defining how Pakistan views itself in cultural terms. This manifests itself in Islamabad's relentless pursuance of membership in the Indian-dominated South Asia, where Pakistan will never be able to raise its head. Meanwhile, Islamabad is completely neglecting West and Central Asia, the two regions that are Islamabad's natural extensions, providing it with historic and cultural depth and independence. This undue focus on south Asia has encouraged the Indians, and some Pakistani converts to 'Indianism', to defy Pakistani nationalism and float wild ideas of Pakistan's integration with India. The Indian premier floated the wildest of these, suggesting recently the blurring of international borders between the two nations and unifying their currencies. To rectify this situation, bold steps are needed to reassert Pakistani nationalism. The government of President General Pervez Musharraf has successfully reawakened a sense of indigenous nationalism within Pakistan's youth. But to sustain this effort, the following steps are necessary: * Political: Pakistan's foreign and information ministries must begin to gradually de-emphasize Pakistan's inclusion in South Asia and play up Pakistan's role in Central and West Asia whenever possible. * Cultural: Islamabad's cultural cooperation with West Asian and Central Asian countries must be revitalized. Turkey has recently sent its fashion designers and musicians to perform in Pakistan. And our Abida Parveen mesmerized the Arabs during a carnival performance in Tunisia. This must be expanded. Iranian, Turkish, Arab and Central Asian musicians, writers, and filmmakers must be invited to Pakistan through joint forums to stimulate interaction with our intelligentsia. * Changing the name of Pakistan's national monetary unit can be a strong symbolic gesture of cultural independence. A good way of connecting the nation with the Muslim Middle East and with Islamic history is by adopting either the Riyal or the Dinar as the name for our monetary unit instead of the Rupee, which has exclusive Indian connotations. * Educational: The other major facets of Pakistan's identity - the Arab, Persian, Turkic and Central Asian - must be emphasized in our schoolbooks. If this requires drafting new books on Pakistan studies, so be it, and these must be compulsory reading for Pakistani students in all public and private classrooms in the country. In this regard, Pakistan's narrated history must be modified to indicate a rich history going back a millennium in time instead of the current education that benchmarks the year 1947 as the beginning of Pakistani history. Pakistan did not gain its independence through the historic efforts of Quaid-i-Azam and the Founding Fathers only to be hijacked a half-century later by a minority that considers seeing Pakistani artists shaking bottoms with their Indian counterparts on some stage show in Mumbai more important than supporting the people of Kashmir. This redefinition of Pakistani nationalism does not mean living in the past, as some cynics may say. It only strengthens national character as Pakistan moves forward to embrace the global culture. E:mail:
Posted by: Mudy Dec 20 2003, 06:35 AM By Shaukat Piracha ISLAMABAD: Opposition parties in the Senate on Friday accused President General Pervez Musharraf of bypassing parliament while taking decisions on important national issues and feared he would “sell off” Kashmir. They also accused him of undermining the sovereignty of parliament and encroaching on provincial autonomy under the controversial Legal Framework Order (LFO). They condemned the trial of Pakistan Muslim-League-Nawaz acting president Makhdoom Javed Hashmi in the Adiala Jail and demanded his open trial in the presence of the media and the masses. They said the government machinery was in a state of disarray ever since General Pervez Musharraf gave a statement that a “retreat” was possible from Pakistan’s principled stand on Kashmir. ....
Posted by: acharya Dec 20 2003, 07:08 AM How Muslims Can Survive in India By Kaleem Kawaja, Washington DC In recent weeks as many Muslim refugees in refugee camps in Gujarat tried to return to their Hindu-majority villages and townships, from which they had to escape due to the anti-Muslim carnage, the VHP activists prevented them from returning to their homes, and threatened them with violence. In the village of Delol, in Panchmahal district, when a Hindu-majority NRI communal harmony delegation visited there and suggested that Muslims should be allowed to return to their homes, they too were threatened with violence and chased out. The Gujarat VHP leaders, and Ashok Singhal, the national general secretary of VHP, claimed that these townships/villages have been ‘cleansed of Muslims’. They also claimed that this was a successful experiment that they intend to implement elsewhere in India. And both the Gujarat state government and the Indian government declined to help Muslims in any way. In townships in Gujarat where Muslims are a very small minority, they are afraid of returning home since the government and police are not making any arrangement to protect them. The history of 55 years of anti-Muslim violence in India shows that in townships and villages, where Muslims are 20% or more of the population, not much harm happens to them in communal riots. In such townships all across India, Muslims were always able to defend their lives and properties and beat back the attacks of fascist Hindu marauders. In the horrible 1992/93 anti-Muslim riots in Mumbai, Muslims were safe in Muslim pocket localities like Mahim, Bandra, Mohammad Ali Road, Bhindi Bazaar, but over a thousand Muslims were killed in localities where their population was sparse. Similarly, in other cities in Maharashtra, UP and Bihar, where many anti-Muslim riots have occurred over the years, Muslims suffered losses of life and property in those localities where they were under 10% of the population, while they were safe in localities where their population was 20% or more. To live in pockets where Muslims are 20% or more of the population, does not mean that those localities become ghettos. For instance in New Delhi such Muslim pockets exist in localities like Okhla, Jamia Nagar, Zakir Bagh. These are nice areas with clean residential and business operations. In such localities in New Delhi, Mumbai and other cities, Muslims have built high quality educational, medical, civic institutions and business enterprises. And all of them have remained safe in the many large-scale anti-Muslim riots in these cities. For 55 years an overwhelming majority of enlightened Muslims in countless cities in India have tried their best to integrate with the Hindus. To do that, all those Muslims who could afford the price tags of houses in new suburbs, moved out of Muslim majority localities and settled down in localities where their numbers were very small. But as we saw recently in the gory violence in the Gulmohar society in Ahmedabad, where former member of parliament Ahsan Jafri and his family were burnt alive, Muslims taking such high level personal risks for the sake of integration, have faced doom. In the recent anti-Muslim violence in Gujarat, even several distinguished Muslim citizens like high court judges, senior IAS and police officers, senior officials of top corporations, top class businessmen etc came face to face with brutal organized violence and in many instances suffered heavy losses. Even their repeated personal appeals to senior government officials yielded no results. If Ahsan Jafri was living in a significant Muslim population locality in Ahmedabad, like Juhapura, he and his family would still be alive. And he could continue to work for communal harmony and help the people of Gujarat. But he was an idealist who chose to live in an overwhelming Hindu majority area, that became the jaws of death for him when the chips were down. Better be alive than be an esoteric idealist and get burned alive. Harmony between Muslims and Hindus is the only way out for Muslims in India. But a dead man or a man whose house has been burnt down cannot practice harmony. In the background of the above horrible experience, and considering their future security, Muslims have very little choice other than forming pockets of 20% population or more in the cities where they live. A feeling of security can also contribute to communal harmony and motivate the Muslims to become more active in the mainstream . This population shift can begin in Gujarat in right earnest. Muslims who were made homeless in the recent carnage should not return to their former localities, villages, townships. Instead with the help of Muslim and non-Muslim NGOs, and the government, they should move to areas where they can form secured Muslim pockets. While it is true that a large number of Hindu friends of the Muslims are trying hard to restore Muslims to their former homes, localities, villages, it behooves that Muslims think of their own future, bite the bullet, absorb the economic hardship, and shift to Muslim pockets. In the current situation, communal riot prone states like Gujarat, Maharashtra, UP, Bihar seem suitable for the population shift strategy. (The writer is a prominent Indian community activist in Washington, DC).
Posted by: Reggie Dec 20 2003, 10:25 PM
Here we go again........... Would it be ABV this time, bringing in the new year's tofha? Want 50 militants in exchange for 2 Indian engineers: Taliban The Taliban have offered to release two Indian engineers kidnapped two weeks ago in exchange for 50 militants, a report said Saturday. "We have received a letter from Taliban in which they want freedom of 50 detained militiamen to release two Indian engineers," Baz Muhammad, who is in charge of Zabul province's Shahjoy district, told the Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press (AIP). **************** 1)How come India is holding 50 AFGHANI/TALIBAN militants, or are they Pakistanis? 2) How come this news has NOT become ISSUE no. 1 in India and the ONE billion Indians are NOT baying to annihilate TALIBAN, if the two INDIANS are not freed within a stipulated amount of time? 3) Why is not the Indian media playing this thing up?
Posted by: Mudy Dec 20 2003, 11:35 PM
TALIBAN militants = Pakistanis India is holding over 300 Afghans in different jails. Now very soon we will see Times of Islamabad, HT will come up with sob stories about these engineers and millitant family. Some will join demonstration in front of PM office and as usual India will release some prized tropphies and circle will start again. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
Posted by: vishal Dec 21 2003, 12:09 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 20 2003, 06:22 AM) Change the Rupee into Riyal or Dinar Ahmed Quraishi laugh.gif This effort is two-pronged: political and cultural. Politically, the South Asian regional forum known as SAARC is playing the role of the Trojan horse, while culturally, Islamabad's official policy of identifying Pakistan exclusively with South Asia is pushing its intelligentsia, singers, movie makers and musicians to see assimilating into India as the only way to international fame. :graduated.gif In this context, visits to Pakistan by Indian filmmakers and artists and singers might be seen as part of so-called peace diplomacy. But another face to this process is that it's pushing Pakistan into the Indian cultural fold. There's no word to describe it except assimilation because there's no balance in it. It's just a one-way road, and it leads to India. Islamabad must follow the examples of Ankara and Tehran in this regard and not of Colombo and Katmandu. Pakistan's national language best characterizes the three dimensions of its national identity. Urdu has a strong Persian, Arabic, Turkic, and Hindi components. Unfortunately, the last component seems to be defining how Pakistan views itself in cultural terms. This manifests itself in Islamabad's relentless pursuance of membership in the Indian-dominated South Asia, where Pakistan will never be able to raise its head. Meanwhile, Islamabad is completely neglecting West and Central Asia, the two regions that are Islamabad's natural extensions, providing it with historic and cultural depth and independence. This undue focus on south Asia has encouraged the Indians, and some Pakistani converts to 'Indianism', to defy Pakistani nationalism and float wild ideas of Pakistan's integration with India. The Indian premier floated the wildest of these, suggesting recently the blurring of international borders between the two nations and unifying their currencies. laugh.gif
Mudy, this is excellent post.Post of the year indeed! It shows that a wave is going in reverse direction now in pakistan.From last 5 decades jehadis tried to brain-wash puki people with unique identity,modified history books etc.etc. Now, its going reverse way.Nationalism in pukis is breaking slowly and slowly. biggrin.gif In fact i believe there must be some people in pak who believe that "what is purpose of existance of pakiland"? ROTFL.gif And number of such population is increasing. More and more people in pakiland are getting questions in their mind "why we made pakistan?" laugh.gif This is proved by the frustration of this writer.It also shows that, urmila visiting pakiland is not that bad for us. so,encourage more indian MASS-MEDIA into pakiland.(specially cultural activities bcoz it reveals cultural history of indian-land which brain-washed pakis never knows!) I hope ABV giving some sentimental lecture to puki people standing in pakiland and lets see how pseudo-nationalism of jehadis losses. cool.gif Our ABV is not only using politics but also doing reverse-brain-wash of their people in background.Really he is my HERO. specool.gif devilsmiley.gif tongue.gif Very good article indeed. smile.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 21 2003, 02:54 AM's%20Diary.htm The kind of flexibilities general Musharraf is evincing on various national and international matters, one should call him general Flexible. However, general Musharraf’s all flexibilities are for state adversaries. He does not show any flexibility on issues like LFO, uniform, presidency and his political opponents. There were days, when the general used to be very tough. In those days he used to be a mere general in the Pakistan army. He had not yet become COAS or COAS plus president of Pakistan. In those days, general was so tough he wanted to send Pakistani troops to Sri Nagar disguised as Mujahadeen. The then prime minister, Ms. Benazir Bhutto admonished the general and he gave up the idea. But the idea really never died in his head. When Mr. Nawaz Sharif became prime minister of Pakistan second time he appointed general Musharraf COAS. After becoming COAS, general did not even bother to ask prime minister and he sent his troops to Kargil disguised as Mujahadeen. He did not learn to be flexible as yet. Then he toppled Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s government by destabilizing Pakistan through he Kargil move. He was just in office for one year and there came 9/11. General Tough then became general Flexible. Since then he has been only tough with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and Benazir. Otherwise, he has been Flexible with all NAB wanted corrupt politicians. He has been Flexible with MQM. He became real flexible with the United States of America. However, he remained Tough with India. He became Flexible with the United States to save Pakistan’s nuclear assets and Kashmir cause. Then United States started putting pressure on General Tough to soften him on Kashmir and India. First, general Tough accepted American pressure and became flexible on Kashmir and then he became real flexible on India too. Recently he has become so flexible on Kashmir he wants to forget UN resolutions on Kashmir. Meanwhile, after watching Saddam Hussein’s dental examination on TV channels the general Tough started to move fast to take off his Toughness mask and wear Flexibility mask. He showed flexibility on many issues with India. He unilaterally stopped across border shelling. He stopped war in Siachan. He unilaterally opened Pakistan’s air space for India. He ordered to destroy the Ghori Missile in Islamabad and eventually he hurriedly called Reuters News Network and gave them interview in which he announce he would rescind UN resolutions on Kashmir. Wow, wow, it is amazing how circumstances soften up a person. Many Pakistanis liked general Musharraf’s tough stand on Kashmir issue. They showered accolades at him when he returned from Aagra without concluding the summit with Mr. Vajpayee. They saluted general’s toughness and tried to convince the nation that he is the leader the nation was waiting for long time. But alas, 9/11 has forced Saddam Hussein to have his mouth examined by US military doctors on International TV channels and General Musharraf to become general Flexible. Welcome new general Flexible.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 21 2003, 11:44 AM MULTAN: A two-year-old girl and her elder sister of seven were married to a 45-year-old man and his eight-year-old son on the orders of a local jury (Punchayat) in a village of Muzaffargarh district four months ago to compensate for allegedly illicit relations by a cousin of the two children, sources told Daily Times on Monday. Two-year-old Saira Bibi was married to Amanullah Nuchrani and her sister Nadia Kausar was married to Amanullah’s son Sarfraz in Jatoi-north (Muzaffargarh district), 130 kilometres southwest of Multan, in a Vani settlement. The jury consisted of Faiz Muhammad alias Abdul Sattar Nuchrani and Pir Bakhsh. Vani is a local tradition in which minor girls are offered in marriage as a recompense to the ‘aggrieved’ party. Sources said Irshad Ahmed, son of Ghulam Farid Nuchrani (42) was accused of an illicit relationship with Rukhsana Bibi, daughter of Amanullah Nuchrani. Amanullah took the case to the jury that decided that Ghulam Farid should give away two virgin daughters to the complainant to settle the grievance. “ Since Nuchrani has no unmarried daughters, the penalty was passed on to his brother-in-law Ata Muhammad, sources who attended the jury said. Irshad Ahmed has denied the charge but the jury that threatened to kill him and expel his family from the village if they refused to accept the verdict, the sources said. Sources said the family had stated Nadia was shown to be 16 on the marriage deed (Nikah Nama) and Sarfraz 20. This was done on Qazi Abdul Jabbar’s advice to escape legal action. The marriage deed was registered on August 28. According to her school record, Nadia’s date of birth is January 1, 1996 (serial No.378) and Sarfraz’ March 10, 1995 (Serial No 324). Nadia and Sarfraz study in a local school in class two and three respectively. The girls are still with their parents and are to be handed over to their husbands on reaching puberty. To ensure compliance, the jury ordered Farid Nuchrani to transfer four kanals of land in Amanullah’s name. The land will be confiscated if the girls are not sent to their husbands. The land mutation (No 7671) was registered on August 29, 2003 in favour of Amanullah as a guarantee. Muzaffargarh District Police Officer Salman Chaudhry told Daily Times that the police had not received any complaint from any party. “We will act if family laws were violated,” he said.
Posted by: Krishna Dec 21 2003, 01:34 PM
Please read this article in full: 'We are cannon fodder for Pak' NEW DELHI: Pakistani Army is not for any jehad (armed crusade) in Kashmir but wants people as cannon fodder to fulfil its military designs, says a former Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) commander in an interview to a Chinese online newspaper. Speaking to Asia Times , a militant, a medical practitioner by profession, narrated some horrific tales to the newspaper and said "...I am still a committed person in terms of the Islamic cause, but that exposure (visit to Pakistan -occupied-Kashmir) was enough to bring me back from illusion to reality. "After completing my medical education, I joined a college where appeal of some scholars for jehad inspired me. I prepared a programme of six months under which I would go to Kashmir and sacrifice my life in the way of Allah," he said. Narrating his visit to militant camps in PoK, he said "a batch of teenagers from different, remote and rural places arrived at a camp and were given initial training to launch attacks in Kashmir .... But a commander of LeT sent a message that an Indian Army unit was on patrol in the area. "The Pakistani colonel forced the youths to cross the border, although they were novices, as he had to report back to his superiors. They came under siege and many were shot dead," he said. "I questioned myself: Did they sacrifice their lives for Allah. No! My mind and heart only said that they were killed in the military game.... I thought, why should I recruit other people's children to become cannon fodder in this military game," he said. Another question to the former commander elicited a horrific answer. While replying to a query as to whether he had abandoned the cause of jehad , he said "this is a matter of heart and soul, and cannot be given up. Do not get me wrong, I am committed to my cause, but cannot be cannon fodder for a simple ‘military game’ between two armies.Have you seen a horse and cart? The horse's owner puts leather blinkers close to its eyes so that it can only see what its master wants it to see. This is how the Pakistani army treats jehadi organisations. This is possible with animals, but not with a walking, talking and thinking human beings," he said. The jehadi narrated further horrific tales after his return to Karachi. "...after my return, one day I found ISI agents along with US agents at my door.... I was a teacher and now I was being subjected to kicks and slaps from ISI agents in front of my wife, father and children. This completely shattered my pride and punctured my ego and self respect." "I was detained in an unknown place without trial. After a few days an officer came to me and without a single word of apology or excuse informed me that the whole episode was the result of a misunderstanding. "I was blindfolded again and left in the middle of a deserted place, without a single penny in my pocket. I travelled several miles on foot to reach my home.” “When LeT Chief Hafeez Mohammed Saeed asked me to be patient. I quit on the spot. It was the last day I worked for the outfit," he said.,curpg-1.cms
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 21 2003, 03:12 PM
Krishna : Here is the Original Article from the Asia Times on which the TOI Report is based : KARACHI – He was always considered extraordinary. He was an excellent pupil, a good cricketer, a natural student leader, and a popular teacher in the medical career that he chose to pursue. Then he decided on a radical change in direction. He would become a jihadi, undergo a six-month training program, and then die as a martyr in the Kashmir Valley. On the journey toward the ultimate sacrifice of his life, though, his views underwent another radical change, and what had appeared as reality became an illusion as the bitter realization hit home of how cheap life is in the military games that Pakistan and India play. By the time this revelation occurred, our talented character had already risen to the position of a top Pakistani jihadi commander. Now he spends most of his time sitting at home in front of a computer screen, working as a medical researcher for a Canadian company. "You know, the military establishment is flourishing on our revenues. It has consumed our resources, and now it aims to consume the whole of our society in the name of jihad. My problem is, we spend so much of our national budgetary resources on our army, yet it sends young civilian lads to fight in the occupied valley [of Kashmir]. Why don't they wage this 'jihad' themselves, for which they get fat salaries and dozens of other benefits which a civilian cannot even dream of?" These words were spoken softly by a man with a long beard in the former Karachi offices of the banned Lashkar-e-Toiba, one of the most active militant groups in Kashmir. The blunt sentiments caught the few other people in the room by surprise, causing the man with the long beard to laugh, and comment that perhaps such words should not echo "in these four walls". The encounter ended with an exchange of business cards. Subsequently, after several telephone calls, the bearded one agreed to meet Asia Times Online in a local restaurant. Dr Ahmed (not his real name) turned out to be a famous name in the student politics of the city in the late 1980s. "I am a medical researcher and I graduated.gifd from the prestigious Dow Medical College [DMC] in Karachi. [President] Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto made the college his main political field as the National Students' Federation [NSF] was the main force behind his socialist agenda, and his phrase 'I always keep my eyes on the DMC's cafeteria to know the real pulse of national politics' has become part of local folklore. "Now, as our army does not want thinking minds in the country, it has had that cafeteria demolished so that no brain-storming debates on politics are possible on campus. The DMC used to be the main playing field of left-wing students, but by the mid-70s, when the Islami Jamiat-i-Talaba [IJT] won the elections, like they did everywhere, when they won in the DMC the largest English daily of the country ran the headline 'Socialism is defeated in Moscow'. How serious and ideological the political roots used to be in Karachi; now everything is changed. Student unions are banned. There is an all-out attempt to keep original thinking to a minimum.[b] Now, after receiving an education from the most enlightened academy of the country, the students do not fit into society, and they make their way to the US. Whether they belonged to the IJT or the NSF, they get Green Cards or US nationality and work in US hospitals. These dictatorial regimes in fact are the real reason for the brain drain, especially from Karachi." Asia Times Online: How was your life changed? Dr Ahmed: I come from a Salafi [Wahhabi] family so I was a practicing Muslim to some extent. After completing my medical education I joined a college where I taught. I came close to a few Salafi scholars whose appeal for jihad inspired me. I prepared a program of six months under which I would go to Kashmir and sacrifice my life in the way of Allah. ATol: So what happened then? Dr Ahmed: Since I was the most qualified person among my group of jihadis, I was soon elevated to the position of provincial commander of Sindh province, where my work was to recruit new people for jihad. I was also taken to the base camp in Pakistani Kashmir for briefings and exposure to jihadi activities. I am still a committed person in terms of the Islamic cause, but that exposure was enough to bring me back from illusions to reality. ATol: Could you please elaborate. Dr Ahmed: You are a journalist and roam all around among jihadis and meet people from top to bottom. Have you ever noticed that though Karachi has the largest presence among jihadis, most of them actually come from the rural areas of Punjab? The recruitment of Karachiites is strictly discouraged in jihadi outfits. You know why? Because an urbanite will not follow instructions blindly, and the army establishment needs jihadis with below-average intelligence. It was, I think, in 2002 that I was sitting in the Azad Kashmir [Free - ie, Pakistani-occupied - Kashmir] base camp where a brigadier was giving a briefing on strategy. The brigadier said that a 500-member suicide squad was the need of the hour as India was set to attack. So I asked the brigadier to please explain to me why India would attack Pakistan. He said that since Pakistan supported the freedom struggle in Kashmir, which had "wrecked the nerves of the Indians", retaliation was expected at any time. I argued that this is what Pakistan had been doing for more than a decade, so what was new at this point in time, that India would suddenly need to attack Pakistan, especially at a time when both countries had nuclear arms? The brigadier then replied that the United States wanted to seize Pakistan's nuclear weapons, and when this happened, India would attack Pakistan. I laughed and said, then perhaps you have chosen the wrong enemy - you should shoot the Americans first and kick their bases out from our land. My conversation irritated the brigadier, so he terminated the briefing and left a note that "next time I do not want to see this gentleman". The next few days in the camp were even more of a strain on my conscience. A batch of teenagers from different, remote, rural places arrived. They were given initial training and were set to launch into the Indian-occupied Kashmir Valley. But the field commander of the Lashkar-e-Toiba sent a message that an Indian army unit was on patrol in the area. The Pakistani colonel in charge nevertheless forced the youths to cross the border as he had to report back to his superiors. So despite the objections of the field commander, the youths had to go. They immediately came under siege by the Indian patrol, and many were shot dead. The innocent faces of those young lads remained in my mind for several days. I questioned myself, should they deserve that? Did they really sacrifice their lives for Allah? For jihad? No! My mind and heart said that they were killed in the military game of two armies on both sides of the divide. I have three small kids. I questioned myself, should I send my children to Kashmir after seeing all this? My heart and brain both said no. I thought, why should I recruit other people's children to be become the cannon fodder of this military game? I know deep in my soul how parents nurture a human life. How a child grows, learns to walk and run, and becomes a full-grown man. And then, in a matter of hours, he is sent into an obvious death trap just because a bloody officer had to report back to his senior that on India's day of independence an operation was launched into the Kashmir Valley. A few other demonstrations of this kind forced me to go back to Karachi, but little did I know that more mental trauma awaited me there. A Lashkar-e-Toiba worker was arrested for alleged transportation of al-Qaeda members. Later, the charges proved to be wrong. But before that, from his cell phone address book, my name was recovered. More than 600 members of the law enforcement agencies in the presence of US FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] agents raided my residence. I did not know where I was being dragged. I have pride in having received an education from a most prestigious academy, with the distinction of working as a teacher. Now I was subjected to kicks and slaps from ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence] agents in front of my wife, father and children. This completely shattered my pride and punctured my ego and self respect. I was detained in an unknown place without trial. After a few days an officer came to me and without a single word of apology or excuse informed me that the whole episode was the result of a misunderstanding. I was blindfolded again and left in the middle of a deserted place, without a single penny in my pocket. I traveled several miles on foot to reach my home. I later met the chief of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, and narrated the whole story. He advised patience. I protested and said that if you want to serve this army, you are welcome, but I am not ready to serve them. That was the last day I worked as a Lashkar commander." ATol: So you abandoned your cause? Dr Ahmed: This is a matter of heart and soul, and cannot be given up. Do not get me wrong, I am committed to my cause, but cannot be cannon fodder for a simple "military game" of two armies. Have you seen a horse and cart? The horse's owner puts leather blinkers close to its eyes so that it can only see what its master wants it to see, not look here or there. This is how the Pakistani army treats jihadi organizations. This is possible with animals, but not with a walking, talking and thinking human being. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 21 2003, 03:18 PM Pakistani perception that the Indian claim to secularism is bogus, and the Indian impression that Pakistan is on the way to becoming a theocracy, would both bear qualification. In theory and in law the Indian polity is secular. In actual practice the situation varies as between regions and levels of government. Society is more secular-minded in the southern states than it is in the northern Hindi-speaking belt. In its policies and practices the central government is more secular than are the state and local governments. In a recent article in this newspaper (December 13), Mr Kuldip Nayar tells us that "safronization" is spreading in India, the communal "genie" is out of the bottle, the notion of "Hindutva" is seizing the minds of an increasing number of people, and that the BJP is no longer disguising its links with militant Hindu organizations. Let us suppose for a moment that India becomes, unabashedly, a Hindu state. What would be the consequences for its relations with Pakistan? It is hard to say. For one thing, we have no historical experience on which to base speculation: there are no examples during the last one thousand years or so of a Hindu state's transactions with its non-Hindu neighbours. Two indicators, one of them rather feeble, come to mind. First, India's relations with Pakistan have been no worse when Hindu parties controlled the Indian government than when Congress leaders (Nehru, Shastri, Indira Gandhi) ruled. Second, India's relations with most of the Muslim countries (other than Pakistan) have throughout been reasonably friendly and cooperative. Let us then not be overly apprehensive about the spreading "safronization." In theory, and according to its constitution, Pakistan is an Islamic, not a secular, state. Actually, this is not the case. Its people have repudiated the more serious proponents of Islamization (Islamic political parties) in every election. These parties did better in 2002 mainly because Gen Musharraf would not let the "mainstream" parties (PPP and PML-N) contest the election unhindered. Even Ziaul Haq's commitment to Islam was more apparent than real; he too used it as an instrument in the service of his unbounded political ambition. Indian observers are doubtless aware of all this; their assertion that Pakistan is a theocracy can then only be regarded as hostile propaganda. Pakistani policy makers and commentators have always believed that India is a hegemonic and expansionist power. I think it is safe to say that India does not intend to invade and absorb any of the currently independent countries in its neighbourhood. It may, however, covet influence, verging upon control, beyond its borders, which is about the same as hegemony. That India wishes to be the dominant power in South Asia, and beyond, does not mean that it will actually achieve such a status. In this day and age hegemony cannot be imposed on others merely by a show of physical force. It costs a lot of money. America's hegemony, such as it is, costs it tens of billions of dollars every year. India simply does not have that kind of money. It may be assumed that the nations that are sought to be dominated will yield only if they are weak, internally divided, and on the verge of falling apart. North Vietnam did not accept the overlordship of either China or the Soviet Union, even though it needed their assistance in fighting the United States, mainly because it was internally a coherent and united whole. The best way for Pakistan to preserve its freedom of choice in its domestic and foreign policies is not to call upon India to stop being hegemonic but to put its own house in order and develop the inner strength to ward off external pressure. Moving on to one of our self-perceptions, it has become customary on our part to think and speak of our country as India's rival. Spain was a rival of England during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries when they were powers of roughly equal rank. But that ceased to be the case when Spain became poorer and weaker. Closer to our own time, Iraq was once a rival of Egypt, but Jordan is content with minding its own business. Students of international politics know that a relatively small state will likely ruin itself if it assumes a posture of rivalry with one whose capabilities are clearly much larger. It should be understood also that being somebody's enemy is not the same as being his rival. Pakistan cannot be India's equal or rival. Its nuclear capability, like that of India, is at best a power to deter, not a power to compel. It follows that we should quit referring to Pakistan as India's nuclear rival. Needless to say, if we wish to maintain the current momentum for peace and amity, we should also stop referring to India as "the enemy." There is no good reason for us to resent India's efforts to build receptivity to its interests in Central Asia and elsewhere in the Muslim world. India's exclusion from those places-assuming that it could be arranged - would not automatically instal Pakistan in positions of advantage. Note also that there are other powers active in the area and better situated to check and balance India's designs. Let us now turn briefly to the "core" issue in Indo-Pakistan relations, the one relating to Kashmir, and messed up in semantic ambiguities. Pakistan has been asking India to recognize its "centrality" to the good order of their relations. Pakistan wants it to be treated as a "dispute" whereas India wants to treat it as nothing more than an issue that might be taken up some day. Pakistan wants negotiations: India may, at best, agree to "talks." This battle of words can be traced to Pakistan's legalistic inclination to base its position on the relevant United Nations resolutions of more than half a century ago, the efficacy of which India denies in no uncertain terms. This battle of words is wholly dysfunctional, it will go nowhere, and it should be abandoned - the sooner the better. India does recognize that the situation in Kashmir poses an exceedingly troublesome problem. It would like to exclude Pakistan from the list of those concerned, but I think it knows that this cannot be done. It may then be willing to discuss the subject with Pakistan somewhere along the line. It does not really matter whether the exercise is called negotiation, talk, discussion, or conversation. Nor does it matter whether the subject is called a dispute, issue, problem, question, or merely an "agenda item." Pakistani spokesmen have a very difficult act to perform. Beyond a genuinely sympathetic concern for the aspirations of the Kashmiri people, they have two very different audiences to address. They feel they must not give the domestic "hawks" ground for alleging that Gen Musharraf has knuckled down to India under external pressure and sold vital national interests down the river. To appease these domestic foes they say that the government's stand on Kashmir remains unchanged. At the same time, they have to consider the logic of ground realities and listen to voices of prudence both at home and abroad. Responding to these voices and considerations, General Musharraf has devised an approach to the Kashmir issue that should be eminently satisfactory from the Indian viewpoint. He proposes four steps or stages for tackling it: (1) the two sides should begin discussing the matter; (2) accept its "centrality"; (3) identify and discard solutions that are unacceptable to any of the three concerned parties (Pakistan, India, and the Kashmiris); (4) look for a solution that is acceptable to all of them. India loses nothing by beginning discussions. That step alone will not commit either side to any particular direction. Nor does it hurt India to concede the problem's "centrality." That concession can have adverse consequences only if it means that the resolution of other issues between the two countries must await a Kashmir settlement. But Gen Musharraf has clearly stepped back from that position. Quite a few of the peace moves proposed during the past few weeks have been accepted by the two governments without any prior negotiations. Others have been adopted following talks that lasted only a couple of days. This has been happening even though no talks concerning Kashmir are even scheduled. It follows that the Indian acceptance of "centrality" may not have any consequence other than that of giving Gen Musharraf a talking point vis-à-vis his opponents. So, why be niggardly with gestures that cost nothing, why not give him a little something to take home? Reject solutions that are unacceptable to any of the three parties, and find one that all of them will accept, says the general. The option of holding a plebiscite to determine the wishes of the Kashmiri people, in accordance with the UN resolutions, may be the first to be knocked off the negotiating table almost. The search for a solution that will invite unanimous approval could extend over a very long stretch of time. Students of diplomacy know that, depending on the nature of the issue and the attendant circumstances, negotiations can go on for years before a settlement is reached. Such, for instance, was the case with SALT ONE and TWO (Strategic Arms Limitation Talks) between the United States and the Soviet Union. The present government in Pakistan may be as interested in taking credit at home for having got the talks on Kashmir started as it may be in their outcome. There is then really no good reason for India to be wary of these talks, or to insist that they will not begin until "cross border" infiltrations have stopped completely. The writer is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, USA. E-mail: India should be MAGNANIMOUS and the Lotastaani Riff Raff will not even stop Cross Border Terrorism. Wonlee the Stupid Indians will fall far such Stupidity. Yes Sir, we are like this wonlee Cheers
Posted by: Viren Dec 22 2003, 02:24 AM
Posted by: Mudy Dec 22 2003, 10:47 AM
Now it make sense why Mushy tried fake assisnation stunt, just to cover nuke candies he had given to Iran and now Libya, I won't be surprised Syriya is also holding some form of nuke programme. pakee.gif
Posted by: Sarah Dec 22 2003, 07:33 PM
Shame on ppl!! Pakistan is your neighbor!and if u can't love so please don't hate!!you are telling all the lies without remembering thet MOMENTO MORI! Pakistanis are nice,sweet,loving they love evryone they never say such things you are saying, about anyone!! You have to Learn how to love and how to speak the TRUTH!!! Pakistan is GREAT! and i am not saying anything bad about india but India is nice,too:)
Posted by: Mudy Dec 22 2003, 10:28 PM
Sarah, Please read all above article, most are from Paki Newspaper and international media. Their is no need to lie about Pakistan, it is open and now whole world knows TRUTH about pakistan. I can understand even you are Pakistani but still hesistate to acknowledge that. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Reggie Dec 23 2003, 01:59 PM
This information needs to be distributed far and wide. On Dec. 22 edition of "On the Record" (FOX, Gretha Van Sustren - there was a sub tonight), the lady interviewed the Pakistani apolgist Mansoor Ijaz regarding Pakistan helping Libya/Iran in nuclear proliferation. Without batting an eyelid, Mansoor squarely put the blame on "rogue" elements of the Pakistani nuclear establishement and complimented General Musharraf for instituting an enquiry against Dr. Qader Khan. LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, and Allah will render justice to Mr. Mansoor Ijaz. For here is what he had said earlier in a CNN interview. CHAT PARTICIPANT: How does Pakistan ensure safe transition of nuclear weapons when power is seized (as in 1998) in their country? How can we be assured that these weapons won't fall into the hands of a fanatic like bin Laden? IJAZ: That's a very good question. The answer to that is the following. Until 1998, the control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal always rested in the army, it never rested with the politicians. In many cases, the politicians didn't even know how far developed the nuclear program was. Now, when we look at the post-1998 scenario, after the nuclear test took place, the command and control structure not only was held inside the army, but concentrated in the hands of the army chief.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 23 2003, 03:21 PM
QUOTE (Sarah @ Dec 22 2003, 07:33 PM)
Shame on ppl!! Pakistan is your neighbor!and if u can't love so please don't hate!!you are telling all the lies without remembering thet MOMENTO MORI! Pakistanis are nice,sweet,loving they love evryone they never say such things you are saying, about anyone!! You have to Learn how to love and how to speak the TRUTH!!! Pakistan is GREAT! and i am not saying anything bad about india but India is nice,too:)
Sarah : On behalf of my fellow Indians I take the Liberty to Welcome you to our Forum. In our India Hatred for others – Least of all for Lotastaanis - is not inculcated into the People like it is being done in Lotastaan for nearly Five Decades. The following Articles by the Internationally Recognized and Acclaimed Writer Dr. Farrukh Saleem should open your eyes. I am positive that you already know about the perpetration of Hatred in Lotastaan and these three Articles will at least make you agree on this Forum that your accusing us Indians of Hatred for Lotastaanis is baseless and reeks of mal-intent : Here goes : Eye Opening, isn’t it. Cheers
Posted by: Sarah Dec 23 2003, 05:05 PM
Hi Peregrine When i don't know who are these person like Dr Farrukh Saleem so why i should belive what he's telling!!i believe that what i see with my own eyes!!and that's that Pakistan is never a terrorist coutry!it's a nice coutry and idians are jealous about it and that's why these feelings from u! There are always some good positive things about a coutry and some negative and you are always searching about some negative things from Pakistan and then telling them here without knowing wether it's true or not!!The truth you can see only with your own eyes without believing any other person! anyway what if u don't fight?what if u try to bring the peace in the world?what if all your information is right and u try to help pakistan for avoiding this????what if u do something good before u'll stand forth God?? bye Sarah
Posted by: rhytha Dec 23 2003, 05:59 PM
Terror the talkpoint: Vajpayee NEW DELHI: Putting another roadblock on an Indo-Pak summit on the sidelines of the SAARC meet, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee today said any bilateral talks with Pakistani leaders would be on the condition that it ends cross-border terrorism and dismantles terrorist infrastructure and training camps on its soil. "The basis for any talks with Pakistan would have to be that they end crossborder terrorism and dismantle terrorist infrastructure and training camps in that country," Vajpayee said addressing the BJP Parliamentary Party meeting, according to party spokesman V K Malhotra. Vajpayee, however, said during his visit to Pakistan, he would be willing to discuss steps to increase trade and economic ties with that country, Malhotra quoted Vajpayee as saying. The prime minister said he cannot predict the outcome of talks in Pakistan. Vajpayee said since the ceasefire along the Indo-Pak border, infiltration by terrorists across the Line of Control had reduced considerably. "We want to improve relations with our neighbour but they should first put an end to encouraging crossborder terrorism and dismantle the terrorist infrastructure in that country," Vajpayee said. He said Pakistan should also put an end to the feeling of enmity towards India and work towards normalising relations. The prime minister said ever since the party won three of the four assembly elections "the mindset of the people has undergone a change and we should take advantage of it. It is time now for all the MPs to go to their constituencies and work among the people."
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 23 2003, 06:49 PM
QUOTE (Sarah @ Dec 23 2003, 05:05 PM)
Hi Peregrine When i don't know who are these person like Dr Farrukh Saleem so why i should belive what he's telling!!i believe that what i see with my own eyes!!and that's that Pakistan is never a terrorist coutry!it's a nice coutry and idians are jealous about it and that's why these feelings from u!
Sarah : It ill behoves a Lotastaani of your Stature, Knowledge, Intelligence and Education to be ignorant of and question the Stature of Dr. Farrukh Saleem. Do a Yahoo Search for “Dr. Farrukh Saleem” and if you are still not satisfied then please take up the issue with him at his E-Mail Address:
There are always some good positive things about a coutry and some negative and you are always searching about some negative things from Pakistan and then telling them here without knowing wether it's true or not!!The truth you can see only with your own eyes without believing any other person!
Well why don’t you post something positive about Lotastaan. We are all “EYES” for such information and will be grateful to you for enlightening us. On receiving information on an item we shall respond to you with the corresponding Indian information. Your expectations of my feelings of jealousy are in itself an exercise in futility on your part.
anyway what if u don't fight?what if u try to bring the peace in the world?what if all your information is right and u try to help pakistan for avoiding this????what if u do something good before u'll stand forth God??
India has never initiated a fight. Pakistan has initiated all the Four Wars with India. India has only reply in Defence. The information about Pakistan is from Pakistani Writers and the Pakistani New Papers as well as News Magazines. The writers are writing these Articles to bring the true situation in Pakistan to the notice of its people and we are doing our bit. IMO you should appreciate such efforts on our part and discuss with us as to why such a situation has come to pass as well as what in you opinion should be done by your Government to improve the situation. Meantime here is an article from another well known and respected Pakistani writer. It is from the Friday Times. While few would question that Gen Pervez Musharraf is a man with liberal – if not Kemalist views – most would agree that his liberalism, despite its early promise, has made little difference. Every retrogressive and discriminatory law remains in use and no one believes any longer that the general will move to strike the Ziaist body of legislation from the books. I call it the dog test. The day Musharraf appears in public holding his two dogs, each under one arm, I would know that his liberalism is for real. Some time back in Lahore, an old friend of his was telling me how liberal the general was and what a no-nonsense approach he had to all things in life. My response was that those were private virtues but there was little evidence or hope of their being translated into public policy. In other words, the dogs needed to be seen again, and in the company of their master. There is a great deal of talk in Pakistan and abroad of modernising education and bringing it in line with contemporary needs, especially in the thousands of madressahs spread across the country. Gen. Musharraf has promised it; his education minister, the personable Zubaida Jalal has promised it, and several others representing government have made similar noises. Since this government has been in office for four years, it is only fair that a good look be taken at what it has actually done, as opposed to what it has said. A commendable study of the textbooks taught in our schools, a hangover of the “Islamisation” effort has been done by Dr AH Nayyar of the Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad. His findings should make everyone sit up. He begins by pointing out that Muslim “majorityism” has always existed in Pakistan and is thus reflected in the educational process. However, the effort to mould the minds of the young through textbooks began in the early 1980s thanks to Gen Zia-ul-Haq and his reactionary thinking. The curricula were redesigned and textbooks rewritten to create “a monolithic image of Pakistan as an Islamic state and Pakistani citizens as Muslim only”, in the process excluding non-Muslim students from the national identity. They were thus turned into second-rate citizens and a question mark put on their patriotism. No non-Muslim has since reached higher rank in any of the services. The basic Mawdudite principle enshrined in this philosophy of education is that nothing should be taught that is outside the context of “revealed knowledge”, which is another way of “Islamising” every subject. Dr Nayyar found that the basic themes of the current curricula are that Pakistan is for Muslims alone; that Islamiyat is to be taught to all, regardless of their religion; that the “ideology of Pakistan” is to be internalised as faith and hatred created against Hindus and India; and finally, students are urged to take the path of jihad and shahadat or martyrdom. So you can now stop wondering where all the jihadis are coming from. One of the guidelines for class IV and V students calls for creating in them the feeling that they belong to a Muslim nation and they have to become life-sacrificing warriors (janbaz mujahideen). “The curriculum thus shows itself to be grossly insensitive to the existence and needs of non-Muslims among the students”, Dr Nayyar observes. When she took office Zubaida Jalal initiated a process of consultations aimed at educational reform, culminating in a revision of curricula. However, writes Dr Nayyar, though that exercise was spread over two years, going by the most recent curriculum documents and textbooks, “things have remained absolutely unchanged”. Textbooks are written, he says, among others by teachers who also set examination papers. Ill-educated and badly-trained for the most part, they sow seeds of disaster in the entire educational system. Curriculum documents given to those assigned with its development specify objectives as well as the contents of the textbooks to be written by the provincial textbook boards. The ministry of education has a curriculum wing which is supposed to scrutinise the finished product but hardly does any such thing. In practice, textbook writers “play safe” and reproduce what has gone before. In fact, they tend to be “more loyal than the king”. There is also reason to believe that a textbook mafia has monopolised the entire system. I do not know what is taught in Indian schools, but Dr Nayyar’s findings as to what is being taught in ours are horrifying. The existence of Pakistan is defined only in relation to Hindus, who are painted as evil. Before Zia-ul-Haq, school textbooks did not contain such material. Early history books, for instance, had chapters devoted to the pre-Islamic civilisations and ruling dynasties of India. Though there was bias when approaching contemporary history, the creation of Pakistan was explained in a rational manner and not a result of “Hindu machinations”. Some books also mentioned that the most prominent Islamic leaders were opposed to Pakistan. All that has now been edited out. Pakistan’s enemies and detractors and those who called the Quaid a “kafir” have been painted as heroes. Curriculum documents studied by Dr Nayyar lay down that the child should understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the need for Pakistan. India’s evil designs should be brought home as it has launched three wars against Pakistan. The textbooks consequently stress that the Hindu has always been the enemy of Islam and the Hindu religion teaches bad things and has no respect for women. Hindus, these books say, worship idols in temples which are narrow and dark places where only one worshipper can go at a time, while Muslims say their prayers together in open mosques. The children are also told about Hindu the child marriage and the custom of suttee. They are taught that a higher-caste Hindu can kill a lower-caste one without fear of punishment. They are also told that Muslim children in India wear shalwar kameez while Hindu children wear the dhoti or the loincloth. The Hindus are said to have done better because they were opportunists who cooperated with the British, unlike the proud Muslims. The break up of Pakistan in 1971 is entirely laid at the doorstep of Hindu India, not attributed to the refusal of the army junta to transfer power. The depressing thing is that the poisonous crop that Zia-ul-Haq sowed is flourishing fifteen years after his death. This will lead Pakistan to disaster. If there is one truth in the world today it is this: the exterminating Islamic warrior is unacceptable. Radicalism in the name of religion is a phenomenon with which the entire world is at war. It is time Gen Musharraf really got down to reforming the system; and the only place to start is with education. All textbooks now being taught in our schools should be burnt and objective scholars with a well-rounded worldview assigned to rewrite and recast the entire educational curriculum in both schools and colleges. Mr. Khalid Hasan has a revolutionary suggestion. Do let us have the benefit of your views. Cheers
Posted by: Reggie Dec 23 2003, 11:31 PM
Quote: that's that Pakistan is never a terrorist coutry!it's a nice coutry and idians are jealous about it and that's why these feelings from u! Precious bandwidth is being wasted... frusty.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 23 2003, 11:31 PM
Mr. Mansoor Ijaz and Gen Clark are from same school and dollar buddy, Imagine one is dreaming for American Presidentship. They are trying everything to protect Paki Army and darling Mushy.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 24 2003, 12:16 AM
Must read:
Posted by: rhytha Dec 24 2003, 12:19 AM
Wow, look at this, the mulla army is disowing its own scientist. The selfishness and the greedyness of the TSPA is very clear for everybody to see, they just sold thier leading scientist to the US, so that they can escape ohmy.gif . I think the whole of TSPA is alter ego of saddam, will give in the moment thier is any sort of remote danger to thier LUXURIES graduated.gif Pakistan: Nuclear info was sold ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Dec. 23 (UPI) -- Pakistan acknowledged Tuesday some of its nuclear scientists shared information with Iran out of "personal ambition and greed," the BBC reported Tuesday. But the Pakistani Foreign Ministry was adamant the government never authorized the transfer of such information. Foreign Ministry spokesman Masood Khan told a news conference the founder of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, Abdul Qadeer Khan, is among those scientists being questioned. "There are indications that certain individuals might have been motivated by personal ambition or greed," Khan said. He said the investigation began five or six-weeks ago, prompted by information from the government of Iran and the International Atomic Energy Agency. Khan said a "very small number" of scientists is thought to be involved, and that everybody, including the highly-respected Abdul Qadeer Khan, will be given equal treatment. He also reiterated the government has never been involved in nuclear proliferation, asserting that Pakistan is a responsible nuclear state and has a reliable nuclear command-and-control system in place.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 24 2003, 12:34 AM
When Khan was putting ads in Paki daily newspaper regarding sale of Nuclear equipments etc, where were so called Mushy and Brig. who were always with Khan. What a shame, when there own country leader disown them just for greed and save their own neck. pakee.gif
Posted by: vishal Dec 24 2003, 01:29 AM
QUOTE (Sarah @ Dec 23 2003, 05:05 PM)
Hi Peregrine When i don't know who are these person like Dr Farrukh Saleem so why i should belive what he's telling!!i believe that what i see with my own eyes!!and that's that Pakistan is never a terrorist coutry!it's a nice coutry and idians are jealous about it and that's why these feelings from u! There are always some good positive things about a coutry and some negative and you are always searching about some negative things from Pakistan and then telling them here without knowing wether it's true or not!!The truth you can see only with your own eyes without believing any other person! anyway what if u don't fight?what if u try to bring the peace in the world?what if all your information is right and u try to help pakistan for avoiding this????what if u do something good before u'll stand forth God?? bye Sarah
Sarah, Its good tobe nationalistic and love your nation.Everbody loves his nation. But don't give a blind date to realities for that.You want to say you love Osama bin laden too?..maulana masood azhar too?...omar sheikh too? If you love these people then be it and have happy JEHAAD. Use your brain,think with your brain not with your heart.And have seen POK?...have you visited jawa camps there?...if no,then go visit them.You will see the truth. thanks.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 24 2003, 01:50 AM
QUOTE (Reggie @ Dec 23 2003, 11:31 PM)
Quote: that's that Pakistan is never a terrorist coutry!it's a nice coutry and idians are jealous about it and that's why these feelings from u! Precious bandwidth is being wasted... frusty.gif
Reggie : Sarah is a new comer on our forum and is of Lotastaani Origin. user posted image We should know of her view point. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 24 2003, 09:26 AM NYT Wednesday, December 24, 2003 The United States has again been given good reason to wonder whether Pakistan is the trustworthy ally it claims to be. Fresh evidence indicates that it has sold nuclear-weapons secrets to Iran, North Korea and perhaps other countries over the years. Pakistan's military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, insists that he stopped such sales after seizing power four years ago. Yet just last year, U.S. spy satellites detected a Pakistani plane picking up North Korean missile parts thought to be part of a swap for Pakistani nuclear technology. The Bush administration must demand stronger controls over Pakistan's nuclear labs, which seem to have been central to the transfers. Musharraf, who narrowly escaped assassination last week, is a key to U.S. policy in south-central Asia. The general supported the United States' war in Afghanistan and has helped arrest Qaeda fugitives in Pakistan. Yet it is not clear how fully he shares U.S. objectives on fighting nuclear proliferation and international terrorism. During the 1980's and 90's, Pakistan, although closely allied with Washington, was virtually a rogue state. It shared nuclear bomb technology with Iran and North Korea, sponsored terrorism in Indian-ruled Kashmir, and backed the Taliban government that sheltered Osama bin Laden. Musharraf has changed some of these policies. But Washington must pressure him to do more. The latest evidence on nuclear exports came to light when Iran recently shared with international regulators information about its nuclear suppliers. Earlier this year, international inspectors found uranium enrichment centrifuges in Iran that were identical to early Pakistani designs. The technology trail points to Pakistan's A.Q. Khan Research Laboratories, and several of its leading scientists have now been questioned. Three years ago, at Washington's urging, Musharraf removed Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of Pakistan's own nuclear weapons program, as the laboratories' director. It is possible that nuclear technology exports continued, as the intercepted North Korean missile shipment suggests. The laboratories have allies in Pakistan's army and its powerful military intelligence agency. To ensure that nuclear exports are truly halted, Musharraf must tighten government control over the laboratories. Washington should demand changes in other policies as well. Musharraf's undermining of mainstream opposition parties has helped strengthen the Islamic parties that now rule areas along the Afghan border where Taliban recruiters openly operate. Containing Islamic extremism in Pakistan requires allowing mainstream opposition parties to function freely. Musharraf is again pledging to stop terrorists crossing into Indian-controlled Kashmir. Such vows are easily made in December, when infiltration routes are blocked with snow. An effective crackdown requires reining in army leaders who use the Kashmir issue to win higher military budgets than Pakistan can afford and local commanders who wink at border-crossing militants. The Bush administration, which sees Musharraf as a valuable ally against terrorism, has not pressured him to restore democracy. Betting U.S. security on one man in a troubled country of 150 million is risky. A wiser course would be to hold Musharraf to all of his promises, on nuclear exports, terrorist infiltration and restoring democracy.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 24 2003, 11:40 PM
Musharraf to resign military role 24/12/2003 - 14:12:51 Pakistan’s military president agreed today to step down as head of the armed forces by the end of 2004. It is part of a deal with a powerful hard-line Islamic opposition party to end a long stand-off that has crippled parliament and stalled this nation’s return to democracy. President General Pervez Musharraf also agreed to scale back some of the special powers he decreed himself after taking power in a 1999 military coup. Musharraf will remain president, but would seek a vote of confidence in parliament within one month of stepping down as military chief, according to the agreement. “It is good for democracy and good for the stability of the country,” said Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed. “The president has proven he is sincere about democracy.” Hafiz Hussain Ahmad, a spokesman for the Islamic coalition, also confirmed the deal. The agreement, which calls for Musharraf to quit his army position by December 31, 2004,[ Hello!!! few months back you said you will quit in Oct 2004] was signed at a hastily-called ceremony in the capital Islamabad.
Posted by: Krishna Dec 25 2003, 02:12 AM
'Now eyes of an Indian will blink in Pakistan' CHENNAI: Mohammad Talha Shahzad was born blind in Rawalpindi 15 months ago. He saw his parents for the first time on Wednesday at a Chennai hospital, looking at the world with the ``eye'' of an Indian woman. It was a corneal transplant at Agarwal Eye Hospital on Tuesday that did the trick. The doctors removed the dressing around 11 a.m. on Wednesday. ``My child stopped crying. His eyeballs were moving. We knew he was seeing us- me, my wife and the world for the first time,'' Talka's father, Khuram Shahzad, said. For Dr J Agarwal, chairman of Agarwal Eye Hospital, the surgery shows a way beyond political boundaries. ``The India-Pakistan war is just political. The people don't hate each other. Now, the eyes of an Indian woman will blink in Pakistan,'' he said. Pakistani businessman Khuram Shahzad and his wife Kanwal had heard about Dr Agarwal's hospital from a relative in Dubai. They got in touch with him in November through e-mail. The couple took the bus from Lahore to Delhi, then flew to Chennai. On December 14, they were at the hospital with the child. ``The child is young. We waited for him to get a good eye. On Tuesday, about 2 a m, we received a call. Sixty-one-year-old Maragatham Venkatesh had donated her eyes. We wheeled Talha into the operation theatre at about 8 a m,'' Dr Amar Agarwal said. Four hours later, the team of surgeons led by Dr T Agarwal, wife of Dr J Agarwal, walked out of the theatre smiling. ``They had successfully implanted the cornea in her right eye. But the surgeons told us it was a difficult job. The iris was stuck to the cornea in the child's eye. They had to move the cornea without damaging the iris and then implant the new cornea,'' Dr Agarwal said. **************************** Now please go ahead and send those terrorists in, so that they can kill our babies, rape our women and torture POWs (men.) Go ahead......
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 25 2003, 02:26 AM
Krishna : Be reasonable. Mohammad Talha Shahzad is only 15 Months Old. Another 15 Years and Yes he will kill very Democratically. No Age Discrimination. No Sexual Discrimination. He will only practice discrimination against Indian Muslims as he will only Kill Non-Muslims. I hope you will find the Goodness in your Heart to forgive Mohammad Talha Shahzad for his Practice of Discrimination against Muslims. Forgiving is part of our Hindu Dharma. Long Live Indian Secularism Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 25 2003, 05:01 AM Pakistan's military has directly and indirectly managed the country's affairs for more than half the period of its independence. Pakistan's army has dominated the country's affairs Military influence has been strong for several historical reasons. When Pakistan emerged as a sovereign state in August 1947, it brought together disparate Muslim-majority provinces of the former British colony with limited experience of integration. No civilian-political institution existed at the time of independence, other than the imperial bureaucracy and military. Being a country shaken at its birth by the bloody riots marking Partition, Pakistan's early years were a time of efforts to build everything from scratch. With resources in short supply, expectations raised by heady rhetoric and a largely inexperienced political elite, Pakistan soon became dependent on the two best-organised institutions. They were the civilian and military bureaucracies. The political elite's standing eroded after the death of Pakistan founder and Muslim League leader, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, in 1948, and the assassination of his successor, Liaquat Ali, shortly afterwards in an abortive coup. Only national institution In a country riven by ethnic and sectarian divisions, the military, dominated by the majority Punjabi and influential Pashtun communities, saw itself as the only truly national institution. The army filled the void of a civilian political institution Its long stints in power during which civilian institutions were stunted have given it the ability to subvert civilian institutions. This power grew significantly after military dictator General Zia ul-Haq helped US President Ronald Reagan's war against Soviet forces in Afghanistan. At this time Islamists secured their position in the elite and encouraged their cadres to join the army as officers. This resulted in a polarisation between religious and secular schools that would divide the force for years. Pervez Musharraf's coup in 1999 strengthened the secular tendencies in the army, but has not guaranteed its permanence. The domestic political consequences of Islamabad joining the war on terror, the withdrawal of Inter Services Intelligence support from the Taleban and militants fighting in Kashmir, and the sectarian violence across Pakistan, mean that national politics remains febrile, and stability fragile. President Musharraf's army rule has met some resistance The army's hold is being contested in many areas, and this is often viewed by the establishment as a threat to national integrity. Given the history of coups, President Musharraf and his team will do everything they can do under the law to erase the symptoms if not the malaise itself. That would explain the arrest of the leader of the Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy (ARD), Makhdoom Javed Hashmi, detained on 29 October 2003 and accused of defaming the military. Role of the US The Pakistan army also grew in size, strength and influence because of assistance from the US. In 1953, the US, in its efforts to build a bulwark south of the Soviet Union, signed several military agreements with countries in the region, including Pakistan. Large sums of money and military supplies started arriving and continued to do so until the second India-Pakistan war in 1965. Initially, the civil and military bureaucracies worked as partners, but since General Ayub Khan's first period of martial law in 1957, the civil service has played second fiddle. The bureaucrats provide the brains, as it were, to the army's brawns, in running the country. General Khan's so-called decade of development saw stability and growth. But the defeat in the 1965 war led to the army's invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People's Party. In 1969, protests spearheaded by students led to a second takeover - by General Yahya Khan, the army chief. Inner contradictions His efforts to restore democracy and introduce a universal adult franchise showed up Pakistan's inner contradictions. The majority-province of East Pakistan elected a party demanding provincial autonomy to what should have been a clear majority in Pakistan's legislature. The refusal by Mr Bhutto and the army to accept this led to violent resistance in East Pakistan. General Zia-ul Haq helped the US against the Soviets in Afghanistan This led to a military crackdown, civil war, Pakistan's military defeat and the emergence of Bangladesh. The dishonour and shame suffered by the army has never been forgotten. However, failings by Mr Bhutto allowed the army a way back to power. His increasingly authoritarian rule gave rise to growing political opposition, giving the army a handle. Mr Bhutto's ousting in 1977 and execution in 1979 showed the army's capacity to topple elected leaders. Mr Bhutto, ironically, was himself partially responsible for restoring the military's influence. He deployed the army and the air force to fight a feudal-tribal-Marxist guerrilla force in Balochistan Province. And he encouraged young PPP cadres to join the force as officers, although this was not looked upon by senior generals particularly favourably.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 25 2003, 04:08 PM,0005.htm Associated Press Islamabad, December 25 A huge bomb hidden in a pickup truck exploded just after a motorcade carrying Pakistan's President passed, killing at least seven people and shattering nearby buildings, witnesses and the Interior Ministry said. President Gen Pervez Musharraf was unhurt, Interior Ministry spokesman Abdur Rauf Chaudry said. The attack occurred at about 1:45 pm local time in Rawalpindi, a bustling city just outside the capital, Islamabad. Witnesses said they saw body parts and some reported hearing two separate explosions. The blast occurred not far from the spot where would-be assassins detonated a huge bomb on December 14 in a failed attempt to assassinate Musharraf. High-tech jamming devices in the president's motorcade apparently delayed the detonation long enough for him to pass by safely. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Dec 25 2003, 04:12 PM
Ok here's a no brainer biggrin.gif Sucide Attempt II on mush. Missed second time as well. For added effect and to prevent last weeks mistake, few casualties added. tongue.gif Can anyone tell me how they heck can anybody attempt within weeks the great general of pakistan. would'nt have the security agencies gone max and got more secure, shows this is setup job by the "ISI" how stupid of them liar.gif pakee.gif type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4043994
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 25 2003, 04:21 PM ISLAMABAD: A convoy carrying President Pervez Musharraf drove along a road in Rawalpindi on Thursday minutes before explosions that wounded or killed several people, witnesses said. Musharraf, who narrowly escaped an assassination bid this month on the same road in Rawalpindi, was not hurt, a spokesman said. ‘The President and all his companions are safe and sound’ Major-General Shaukat Sultan told the media. The blasts were thought to have been set off by a suicide bomber who had been travelling in a small vehicle, a senior police officer said. rytha : It may sound Far-Out, but, I feel either Riff Raff is “stage-managing” such incidents to get more Aid and Concessions from the USA or it is the Islamised Section of the Pakistani Army Leadership (PAF & PN are not so heavily Islamised) which is totally averse to Peace with India. The Pakistani Army cannot afford to have Peace with India since once there is peace there will be No Jobs for these Islamic Fundamentalists. Cheers
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Dec 25 2003, 09:46 PM
There is little doubt in my mind that these are stage managed incidents that Riffaraff is using to both get attention and the sympathy of Sam. Sam has been neglecting him in the festive atmosphere of the capture of the Iraqi strawman. Riffaraff is worried this may signal the end of the war against terrorism and also end of his allowance for the newest crackers. So he hatches these crude plans and makes regular appearances in the world media. I hope playing wolf has its conclusion as in the original story.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 25 2003, 11:13 PM
Again, wrong timing. During X-mas time, less people watch TV and more invovled in family gossip and fight. Who cares who is hitting Mushy, when frying pans are flying everywhere. Let them try again and may be somethong happen. Indian PM should not visit Pakistan, security is very shaky and if security appratus can't protect dictator how they can protect leader of 1 Billion people.
Posted by: Viren Dec 25 2003, 11:17 PM
Stage managed or not - from Indian prespective nothing much gained or lost. US SD may bail this rat out but look at the message it's sending to the foreign investors or visiting sports team or any visitors. I trust Riff Raff has no tourism industry to worry about. Besides their terror universities that graduated.gif thugs from around the world just got a boost. Nothing to rejoice here except for the fact that it's visible to the entire planet the sorry state of affairs in this asylum run by lunatics. We've known it for years, now it's being slowly but surely being made know to rest of humanity. I truly hope they are not stupid enough to be setting a stage for something big when ABV makes that SAARC visit.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 25 2003, 11:27 PM ISLAMABAD: President General Pervez Musharraf Thursday said that such blasts could not scare him anyway. He said, "I would continue to struggling for accomplishing my mission for the prosperity and progress of Pakistan." "These blasts have given new strength to my resolve to eliminate terrorists and extremists from the country and, if God Willing, this mission will be accomplished," the President told journalists at Aiwan-e-Sadr this evening after surviving third assassination attempt when two suicide car bombers attacked his convoy in Rawalpindi this afternoon. Two huge explosions rocked the area as two vehicles parked at two petrol pumps near Jhanda Chichi, the area where a bridge was blown earlier this month, suddenly *plouged into the President's motorcade. Gen. Musharraf voiced his deep grief and sorrow over the loss of lives of innocent people and assured their families that since they had lost their lives because of him, he would take care of their families and compensate them. *ploughed This could might possibly be the REAL THING. IMO Prime Minister Vajpayee should cancel his visit and offer to arrange the SAARC Meeting in India. I think Riff Raff has been hit on his head. His mutterings of "Blasts cannot INFLATE my resolve" and "I would continue to STRUGGLING" is evidence that he has been mentally affected and is now running scared - despite his bravado. Cheers
Posted by: Viren Dec 25 2003, 11:31 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Dec 25 2003, 01:57 PM)
IMO Prime Minister Vajpayee should cancel his visit and offer to arrange the SAARC Meeting in India.
Nah....since he's made the commitment, he should go to Riff Raff Lottastan. We all know that if ABV even twists his ankle dry.gif while he's there, Pakistan would be Park-istan.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 25 2003, 11:38 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Dec 25 2003, 11:31 PM)
Nah....since he's made the commitment, he should go to Riff Raff Lottastan. We all know that if ABV even twists his ankle dry.gif while he's there, Pakistan would be Park-istan.
Viren : Our Prime Minister is far more valuable then Lotastaan. Better to be Safe than Sorry. Prime Minister Vajpayee must cancel his visit to Lotastaan Cheers
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Dec 25 2003, 11:41 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Dec 25 2003, 12:57 PM)
I think Riff Raff has been hit on his head. His mutterings of "Blasts cannot INFLATE my resolve" and "I would continue to STRUGGLING is evidence that he has been mentally affected and is now running scared - despite his bravado.
clap.gif Hilarious, Peregrine your truely have a good eye for the Pukish humor.
Posted by: Viren Dec 25 2003, 11:45 PM
Think about it Peregrine. Who's going to work harder on ABV's security while he's there. Methinks Riff Raff will be more busy making sure ABVs stay is comfy than Mushy's neck. Also remember who's going to succeed ABV if the PMs post is vacated before it's time - sure this is not lost on Riff Raff. One thing that's been proven time and again - the top TSP army brass are not the jihadi types - they value their hide more than anything else in this world. Besides if ABV cancels now what message are we sending to rest of the world or our own jawans in Kashmir. Remember at the height of SARS outbreak in China, ABV went ahead with his trip while Mushy cancelled his! Now if Mushy calls of SAARC - it's a different issue ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Reggie Dec 25 2003, 11:58 PM
Death is too easy an escape route for Musharraf. Stage managed or not, it is a fact that these explosives did blow up close to him (and the real possibility that a stage-managed 'accident' could happen that could cause him fatal injuries) is absolutely the right 'prescription' the good doctor has ord(ained)ered for him. For Musharraf, every living day on earth should be an "earth-shattering" experience! Every breath he takes, every step he makes, Musharrf MUST stare at DEATH every second of his living life (and I seek God's forgiveness for these comments) but for EVERY innocent death in Kashmir, every orphaned child whose crying faces is seared in my memory, Musharraf MUST pay!!!!
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 12:36 AM
Uncle must be working 24 hrs or already started working on second line of leadership in Pakistan and removing Nuke from land of pure. Where is Bhutto? OR Mushy must be ready to delivery OBL. but devoted got wind and decided to sabotage his efforts.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 01:04 AM
QUOTE (Hauma Hamiddha @ Dec 25 2003, 11:41 PM)
clap.gif Hilarious, Peregrine your truely have a good eye for the Pukish humor.
Hauma Hammiddha : Saheb Ji Saheb. The Origin of Lotastaani-ish humour is in/by the Lotastaanis themselves after having legitimatised and institutionalised LOTAISM. You will remember Mr. Ahmed’s letters in the Lotastaani Media about the influence Indian Forums are having on International Opinion makers whereby EU removed duty tariff concessions on Lotastaani so-called Basmati rice when the German Importer’s letter regarding the Lotastaani so-called Basmati Rice consignment arrived in Germany mit mice schidt mixt was "Aired" on an Indian Forum. Lotastaanis are like that wonlee pakee.gif Cheers
Posted by: Viren Dec 26 2003, 01:05 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 25 2003, 03:06 PM)
but devoted got wind and decided to sabotage his efforts.
Or someone didn't like all those nuke scientist including AQ Khan getting grilled by common criminals that they are tongue.gif Nevertheless, I'm sure the life insurance premium on Mushy just went up a couple notches smile.gif but then I'm sure it's owned by Fauji Foundation.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 01:06 AM
Viren : I hope you have not forgotten the Lotastaani arranged attack on the Indian Parliament. What did the World do? Sympathised with India and extended more support to Riff Raff. The Lotasttani Army, especially the Top Brass, is totally Jihadized AS FAR AS INDIA IS CONCERNED. Just think of the loss to India with her Prime Minister being blown up to bits in Lotastaan. The USA and its poodles will beg, cajole, coax, inveigle, persuade and prevail upon a grieving India to save Riff Raff’s H & D and give him one more chance. We must not forget how Lal Bahadur Shastri “died” (methinks it was murder) in Tashkent. LKA is in the end a Politician and if necessary will soften his stand in light of the “persuasions” that he will be subjected to by the USA and its Poodles. ABV cancelling his trip will not send any negative message to the world or to our Jawaans. In fact everybody will breathe a sigh of relief. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 03:16 AM,00050002.htm [No 400%] tongue.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 03:33 AM
The attacks have suddenly confronted the government with the possibility of uncertainty and chaos in Pakistan from which Musharraf is removed suddenly.
Soldiers, who were junior officers when Gen Zia-ul-Haq opened the floodgates of Islamisation in the early 1980s, have now become Corps commanders and at least sixty per cent of them are seen as being close to Islamists.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 04:46 AM
Officials said the attackers tried to ram the motorcade in two pickup trucks, each loaded with 45 to 65 pounds of explosives,
Too little to do any major damage
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 04:57 AM
From : The Friday times. This Article was evidently written before today’s attack on Riff-Raff. Musharraf needs to bring other stakeholders on board if he wants to push the new policy initiative successfully The recent attack on General Pervez Musharraf is a worrying development for a number of reasons. Of course, any incident in which a head of state might lose his life would be destabilising in the short-run. But there is more in this kind of terrorist activity in case of Pakistan. It seems that the general chaos that has prevailed in Pakistan for so long has begin to affect the military as well. While it is too early to say who might be behind the attempt, the available details show that elements who disagree with Musharraf’s policies might have penetrated the armed forces, especially the inner sanctum of his security. This should not come as a surprise, in fact. In 1984, Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi was assassinated because those responsible for her security disagreed with her policies. There are other such examples. In India, Mrs Gandhi’s sudden exit from the scene did not result in a political vacuum but that was owed to the sturdiness of the democratic process. In Pakistan, such a process is largely absent and Musharraf’s sudden departure from the scene could result in a number of scenarios, all of them disturbing and potentially destabilising. Pursuing political goals without initiating a supportive process of dialogue with other civil society stakeholders creates inter-institutional and intra-institutional tensions that could result in heavy costs like successful or botched assassination attempts. A number of theories have already emerged regarding the incident. One theory, of course, implicates Al Qaeda or any other groups that are uncomfortable with Musharraf’s policies to a point where they are prepared to eliminate him. Indeed, there are a number of issues on which the ultra-conservatives or the ‘Islamicists’ might have a problem, such as the changed policy on militancy as stated by Musharraf or his new perspective on the Kashmir issue. In the event that Musharraf is moving against the tide within, he is likely to feel quite alone pursuing his stated policies and trying hard to convince his team to consider the greater benefits of making peace with India. It must be remembered that this army – under Musharraf’s command – launched the infamous Kargil operation not too long ago. Expecting this organisation to change colour like a chameleon is likely to be difficult, and in the case of some quarters almost impossible. In fact, it might come as a surprise to most outsiders that the bulk of the army would accept a changed policy without great hesitation; so much for institutional discipline. However, one might like to draw Musharraf’s attention towards four issues. First, it would not be very easy to convert the entire military establishment to accept the new policy initiative, especially considering the fact that the armed forces, like other militaries, have been trained for so long towards viewing the adversary in terms of the worst-case scenarios. What makes it worse is the fact that this military has also been directly involved in policymaking, a situation that does not allow the top boss to change gears suddenly without having an adverse effect on the rank and file. Direct political involvement denies the necessary space to the military leadership that is normally available when the political or democratic process is strong or stable or both. Although the chain of command and the exercise of control in the Pakistan Army is pretty solid – for instance, so far there have never been any successful internal coups mainly due to discipline and good intelligence – one cannot altogether disregard the possibility that rapid changes in policies might impact the morale of certain segments of the military. Second, Musharraf perhaps needs to adopt a more strategic approach to introducing a new policy initiative. The problem right now is that he seems to have embarked on the same course which destabilised Nawaz Sharif. One of the reasons the army overthrew the previous regime was because Sharif was perceived to be taking a course that would have compromised the Kashmir issue. This was not true but the problem was that Sharif had taken an initiative without first initiating a process that might have led the country towards a peaceful settlement of disputes with India. What Musharraf needs to do urgently is to start the process of an internal dialogue with the intent of carrying on board all the stakeholders. That is the only way of taking the peace process forward and ensuring that the new policy initiative does not come unstuck. In other words, Musharraf needs to enlarge the base of support for the new initiative and, in doing that he also needs to have the civil society behind him. Third, and this is a necessary corollary of the previous point, Musharraf needs to embark on a parallel strategy of making new partnerships. In particular, he needs to link up with the less conservative and liberal segments of the society, or sections that believe in peace and reconciliation. If he plans to pursue his peace agenda any further he would definitely be in need of allies more than ever. One of the facts that he has to adjust with is that liberal political and social forces are also a reality of Pakistan. Instead of forcibly turning these elements into rivals – which is what is happening because of the peculiar political configuration – Musharraf should find a way to build alliances. This would not be a sign of weakness. He needs to do this because he genuinely requires such alignments if he wants the new initiative to be successful. It is not just a matter of his life, but of the future of the nation as well. Finally, Musharraf must think more carefully about the entire issue of keeping the forces apolitical. Granted, all military generals that oust a civilian government claim that they had no intention of doing so and were forced to do so in order to save the country. Yet, the fact is that military takeovers have always been harmful for a country. They not only create a chasm between the armed forces and the civil society as has happened in Pakistan and many other countries, but also create dissensions within the military. Of course, one would want the political leadership to behave more responsibly and maturely, but a military takeover is certainly not the recipe for teaching anyone political maturity. This includes the civil society at large. What is even more important is that apolitical militaries generally find it less problematic to support even controversial political decisions. What one might come across in situations where militaries are generally apolitical is an odd incident like what happened next door in India with Mrs Gandhi. However, the point worth noting was that the turmoil was limited. At no time one had expected something far bigger in terms of chaos. So, what the general really must think about is how to institutionalise a different value system in the armed forces, particularly the army, whereby personnel are trained not to make coups and take over the governance of the state in their hands. Indubitably, this might also involve deconstructing the past for the sake of analysis from which some lessons could be drawn for future reference. There is need, for instance, to understand why the military over the years might have grown less secular as an institution. While it still remains more professional than other sections of society, it has, nonetheless, gone through a transformation that makes it more susceptible to influence from external ideologies. In a way this was expected since the change in the society had, at some point, to begin affecting the military also. Much of this has had to do with the army’s encounter with the jihadis and religious zealots. Such interactions are dangerous in a situation where the military is accustomed to being the dominant force in a country’s power politics. This is something that must be changed. Although a change would not come about in a day, it is worthwhile for the military leadership to start thinking more strategically and in the long-term. It needs to put the fundamental value system of the armed forces back on track. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 05:11 AM Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 05:21 AM
Should me start Mushy count down.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 05:36 AM Riff Raff is getting popular in Lotastaan. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 05:53 AM
Good record. Cat's life. ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 03:57 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 26 2003, 05:53 AM)
Good record. Cat's life. ROTFL.gif
Mudy : Four Down. Five to Go And Counting. Cheers ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 05:33 PM Two suicide bombers involved in a failed attempt to kill Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf have been identified, officials say. Mr Musharraf narrowly escaped when two huge bombs went off in the city of Rawalpindi, just minutes after his motorcade passed by. At least 15 people, including the bombers, were killed and 46 injured. The president blamed Islamic militants for the attack and has vowed to "cleanse the country of extremists". On Friday, the country's Interior Minister, Faisal Saleh, told parliament that one of the bombers had been identified but declined to give his name. The minister told the senate that he would not disclose the details for security reasons, but he said the president was targeted because of his pragmatic stance in the fight against terrorism. Pakistan's parliamentary deputies condemned Thursday's attack as a cowardly, heinous crime and a conspiracy against Pakistan. Parliament met for the first time since Mr Musharraf agreed to step down as military head next year, as part of a deal with hardline Islamists to end a parliamentary stand-off. He will also give up some of the powers he assumed after his bloodless coup in 1999. Under the agreement, Mr Musharraf remains as president but will have to seek Supreme Court approval if he wants to sack the government. Blaming 'terrorism' In a TV interview just hours after the attack, Mr Musharraf said he was now even more determined to fight terrorism in Pakistan. It was the second attempt on his life in 11 days. Last week, the Pakistani leader was unscathed when a bomb blew up a bridge seconds after his convoy had crossed it in Rawalpindi, just outside the capital, Islamabad. The BBC's Paul Anderson in Islamabad says militants, who were blamed for last week's attack, are angry at Mr Musharraf's support for the United States in its fight against al-Qaeda and the Taleban. Several months ago, the number two in the al-Qaeda network, Ayman al-Zahwari, put out a videotape urging Pakistanis to overthrow Mr Musharraf. "We are fighting a war against terrorism," General Musharraf told state television. Looking calm and composed, he blamed "extremists and terrorists who want damage the country, [and] defame the religion". "We have to face them and we will not lose courage," he said. An army spokesman in Pakistan has meanwhile denied that lax security was to blame attack on President Musharraf. But the BBC's Paul Anderson in Islamabad says some politicians believe the security system surrounding the president has completely collapsed. If the security system surrounding Riff Raff has completely collapsed then Prime Minister Vajpayee MUST cancel his visit to Lotastaan for the SAARC Conference. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 10:02 PM The Saturday Tribune quoted "a source assigned to a high strategic position" as saying that the December 14 attempt was "carefully stage-managed by Musharraf's close staff -- and at his instigation".
Posted by: Mudy Dec 26 2003, 10:21 PM ROTFL.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 26 2003, 10:39 PM
Viren : Cheers
Posted by: Viren Dec 26 2003, 11:37 PM
Peregrine: Check this: sad.gif To continue...
I hope you have not forgotten the Lotastaani arranged attack on the Indian Parliament. What did the World do? Sympathised with India and extended more support to Riff Raff.
No I have not forgotten Dec 13th. I also remember that the people who died that day were our security forces. Do you think if say 4 to 5 MPs were assasinated that day GoI would have cared for world opinion. I am of the firm belief that if anything happens to our 'elite', there'll be hell to pay. If am janata or security forces die, we'll hear of 'infinite restrain' or 'war clouds' that never rain.
The Lotasttani Army, especially the Top Brass, is totally Jihadized AS FAR AS INDIA IS CONCERNED.
Yes, but they (top army brass) have never ever stuck their own neck on the line - definitely not in Kargil, not in '71 nor in '65 or in '48. They are the parasites that survive by feeding on their own and have pretty well developed survival instinct. They know damn well that next full fledged war will mean a near certain destruction of the nation known today as Pakistan. They can blow hot & cold but it's not in their interest to fight India in any conventional/nuclear war. Proxy war is another matter.
Just think of the loss to India with her Prime Minister being blown up to bits in Lotastaan. The USA and its poodles will beg, cajole, coax, inveigle, persuade and prevail upon a grieving India to save Riff Raff’s H & D and give him one more chance.
Remember how World War I was triggered? I seriously doubt that anything will happen to ABV while he's in TSP. Pakis who want Pakistan will be working 800% overtime to ensure that nothing untoward ever happens. If it does, I doubt any amount of persuasions from anyone will work. At this point - with respect to SAARC, TSP has painted itself in a corner. Either they can: - call the SAARC off and loose H & D or - keep H & D, go ahead with SAARC and make sure the event goes smoothly ABV and GoI should just keep their mouth shut and see what's going on. Hey, if the events of the past 2 weeks is TSP is any indicator, we might be looking at whole new regime in TSP in next 2 weeks tongue.gif
Posted by: Reggie Dec 26 2003, 11:55 PM
Americans need not "beg, cajole, coax, perduade etc. etc. India if ABV gets killed in Pakistan. America will simply ORDER India not to do anything. And Indians wont! Except for the Shiv Sena and VHP holding placards damaging public property, India will do nothing. Of course, Al-Bin Powell and Bush will send their condolences to India and money to Pakistan (see, Pakistan needs more money and hi-tech equipment precisely to protect Musharraf and other world leaders, they will say) and besides the customary world-class funeral attended by all and sundry, expect nothing.
Posted by: Viren Dec 27 2003, 12:01 AM
QUOTE (Reggie @ Dec 26 2003, 02:25 PM)
Americans need not "beg, cajole, coax, perduade etc. etc. India if ABV gets killed in Pakistan. America will simply ORDER India not to do anything. And Indians wont!
US had similiary ORDERED India not to "interfere" in '71. JN Dixit has some stuff in his book on this plus the recent tapes of Nixion/Kissinger made public lately has some references to it I believe. There has to be some threshold beyond which no Indian will take it.
Posted by: rhytha Dec 27 2003, 12:09 AM
i think viren's idea is if mush is going to meet ABV even for tea, thats will be mush's death bell. ISI or who ever behind the assasination will assume mush sold kashmir down the river, and will mount the next assasination bid from which mush can't esacpe. this is because they(as well as us) know mush's u-turn on taliban. mush will always try to save his skin first e.g latest incident, solid his top nuclear scientist down the river by blaming them of "greed" while distancing his regime from nuke profilaration
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 27 2003, 12:37 AM
viren : Let us say, for the sake of argument, that both Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee and Riff Raff get blown up. The USA will convince India to accept the sad loss as Lotastaan has equally suffered with the blowing up of Riff Raff. Thus it is best for Prime Minister Vajpayee to be Better Safe Than Sorry. Here is the article from the South Asia Tribune :
But despite these changes in the top army junta ranks, Musharraf will still be a very scared man. “He will have to live in a luxurious rat hole at the top, rarely communicating directly with his rank and file,” a military analyst said in Islamabad. “He will now fear his own shadows.”
Hypothetically the USA will prevail upon the Nobel Prize Committee to give a Joint Posthumous Peace Prize to the “Two Dearly Departed”. The Lotastaanis Jihadist Army will have not only got rid of Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee but also as a consolation prize Riff Raff too. So, Better Safe Than Sorry. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 27 2003, 02:36 AM RAWALPINDI: President Pervez Musharraf announced on Friday compensations and rewards for those who were killed and injured in last day’s assassination bid on President Musharraf, said a report. Rupees five hundred thousand for each killed in the suicidal attack on the president to be paid to their families respectively and rupees one hundred thousand for each injured in the attack. Additional rupees five hundred thousand will be paid to the families of those policemen who were killed on the spot in the deadly attack. Those policemen who did not die on the spot, but later - even while on the way to the hospital, will not get such additional compenstaion Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 03:06 AM
Those policemen who did not die on the spot, but later - even while on the way to the hospital, will not get such additional compenstaion
What type of justice is this ? grenade.gif REWARD - This confirms it was Mushy staged show.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 03:13 AM
The attack — the second attempt in 11 days to kill Musharraf by bombing his motorcade on a road into the capital — was carried out by "a mix of local and international terrorists," Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said
"Which group carried out the attack, al-Qaida, local militant or sectarian organizations — it would be guesswork to say right now," said Interior Ministry spokesman Abdur Rauf Chaudhry.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 05:38 AM
Posted by: Hauma Hamiddha Dec 27 2003, 07:46 AM
I am sure Moosharaaff has taken Sam into confidence about this attack. May be suggestion came straight from the State dept itself.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 09:54 AM by B. Raman
2. What should be deeply worrying is that the perpetrators of this attack would seem to have had precise knowledge of his movement plans and timings. In my earlier analysis of the unsuccessful attempt on him on December 14, which is available at, I had stated that internal complicity and external negligence were responsible for the near-disaster. In the present case, there is so far no evidence of external negligence, but the earlier conclusion of internal complicity stands corroborated.
7. In the jihadi circles, there is strong anger against Musharraf for two reasons. Firstly, his support to the US in its military action against Al Qaeda and the Taliban and his action, even if ineffective, against some of the Pakistani components of the IIF. Secondly, his perceived co-operation with the US in its investigation of the role of some Pakistani nuclear scientists in assisting North Korea, Iran and Libya in their attempts to acquire a military nuclear capability. 8. There is considerable resentment over what they look upon as the indignity caused to Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan by subjecting him to interrogation or debriefing and allegedly putting restrictions on his travels. A.Q.Khan himself is not a fundamentalist or a jihadi, but he is a hero to the fundamentalist and jihadi elements. They look upon him as the father of the Pakistani atomic bomb to counter India's and also as the father of the Islamic bomb to protect the Ummah from Israel's
12. If Musharraf is eliminated before October next, the Chairman of the Senate would take over as the acting President till a Presidential election could be held and Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali would find it difficult to overlook the claims of Gen.Mohamad Aziz Khan, the present Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to take over as the Chief of the Army Staff (COAS). Of the 30 Lts-General/Generals in the Pakistan Army at present, he is the only one who is clearly identified as a fundamentalist close to the religious fundamentalist as well as the jihadi terrorist organisations. He was the head of the clandestine Army of Islam which was created by Zia and has a long record of close contacts with Al Qaeda and the IIF. 13. Even if Musharraf manages to survive and continue in power, he would find it difficult to resist the pressure to revert to a confrontationist position towards India in order to pacify the jihadis. If he is assassinated and Mohd. Aziz Khan succeeds him, there could be an escalation of acts of terrorism in Jammu & Kashmir and other parts of India. 14. Either way, the coming months could have unpredictable consequences not only for Pakistan, but also for Indo-Pakistan relations.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 10:05 AM By Paul Sperry © 2003 WASHINGTON – A new U.S. intelligence report obtained by WorldNetDaily describes a plot by "Pakistani Islamic extremists" to pose as aides to disabled travelers to obtain U.S. visas and carry out terrorist attacks once inside the U.S. They also plan to conduct attacks in Britain using the same scheme, which is designed to "draw less scrutiny from law enforcement," according to the closely held two-page report by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. The attacks will allegedly take place in April 2004, says the report, which is marked "Law Enforcement Sensitive." "Pakistani Islamic extremists are allegedly planning to conduct attacks in the U.S. and the United Kingdom in April 2004," according to the report's summary. From intelligence gathered so far, U.S. intelligence officials believe the Pakistani nationals, all male, plan to obtain U.S. visas in Islamabad, the capital of Pakistan. "The operatives will accompany a disabled person and act as the disabled person's assistants when obtaining the visa," the report said, adding that the disabled individual may have prosthetic limbs or be confined to a wheelchair. The State Department screens foreign applicants for visas. Phone calls to the department were not immediately returned. The report says that the scheme "fits with current al-Qaida methodology, as al-Qaida has been trying to recruit individuals who would draw less scrutiny from U.S. law enforcement entities." Al-Qaida is still active in Pakistan, routinely described by the administration as a "key ally" in the war on terror. U.S. intelligence believes the terror network's top leaders, including Osama bin Laden, have taken refuge in the Islamic state's northern tribal belt. About two-thirds of all designated terrorist groups in the world have a Pakistani connection, according to the U.S. Treasury Department. Bowing to pressure from Islamic groups in America, the Justice Department recently discontinued an antiterrorist immigration program to monitor Pakistanis and other foreign nationals from some two dozen Muslim nations visiting the U.S. on visas. They're no longer required to report to immigration inspection offices while staying in the U.S. A top Homeland Security official distributed the report about the Pakistani plot to border and immigration agents on Christmas Eve. "Al-Qaida remains interested in using Pakistanis as potential operatives," warned Roy Surrett, intelligence director for U.S. Customs and Border Protection, in a Dec. 24 security update to field operations directors. "The most recent intelligence suggests that they may be using disabled Pakistani individuals along with an assistant as possible terrorist operatives," Surrett added.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 27 2003, 02:18 PM
Mudy : It may be a great scoop for the US Authorities to become aware of the plot of “Lotastaani Islamic extremists" posing as aides to disabled travellers to obtain U.S. visas and carry out terrorist attacks once inside the U.S. However, the US Authorities need to wake up and appreciate that such Islamic Extremist Terrorists posing as aides to disabled travellers for obtaining U.S. Visas could be of Bhookhanangadeshi, Afhgani, or any other Arab Country Origin. They could also be of Lotastaani / Bhookhanangadeshi Origin who have Illegally Migrated to India over the years – acting as sleepers for the Lotastaani ISI or the other Islamic Extremist Terrorists Organizations. In addition even the Indian Security Services - I would rather say that it must start with the Indian Visa Granting Offices taking the first steps – should monitor this mode of Islamic Extremist Terrorists trying to enter India. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 27 2003, 02:25 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 27 2003, 09:54 AM) by B. Raman
Mudy : From your above link :
If Musharraf is eliminated before October next, the Chairman of the Senate would take over as the acting President till a Presidential election could be held and Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali would find it difficult to overlook the claims of Gen.Mohamad Aziz Khan, the present Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to take over as the Chief of the Army Staff (COAS). Of the 30 Lts-General/Generals in the Pakistan Army at present, he is the only one who is clearly identified as a fundamentalist close to the religious fundamentalist as well as the jihadi terrorist organisations. He was the head of the clandestine Army of Islam which was created by Zia and has a long record of close contacts with Al Qaeda and the IIF.
Isn’t the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff senior to the Chief of Army / Air Force / Navy Staff? If he is, then I think in case Riff Raff is removed from the Office of President of Lotastaan – by accident or otherwise – then Gen. Mohamad Aziz Khan – would claim the Presidency of Lotastaan Cheers
Posted by: Reggie Dec 27 2003, 03:41 PM
According to press reports, the Indian security personnel in charge of ABV have said in no uncertain terms that Pakistan is unsafe for ABV's visit. Upon their return from an initial assessment of the security situation in Pakistan, they have stated that their counterparts in Pakistan were 'hostile' and that there were serious security gaps in the Pakistani system. I trust that ABV WILL accept and respect the assessment and cancel his trip to Pakistan. Remember, Indira Gandhi had disregarded the threat perception from within her own security chief about her personal bodyguards and paid for her life. Are we about to witness history being repeated?
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 27 2003, 04:12 PM
QUOTE (Reggie @ Dec 27 2003, 03:41 PM)
Are we about to witness history being repeated?
Reggie : Only this time the Credit will be taken by the Valiant Fighters of Islam - The Jehadi Extremist Terrorists of Lotastaan. P.S. : Vajpeyee Ji should heed the advice of the Indian Security Personnel in charge of his Security as these personnel have only ABV's Safety, Security and Life on their Agenda. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Dec 27 2003, 05:41 PM
can anyone list the advantages and the disadvantages of ABV going for the saarc summit and refusing to go for security purposes? i think that will give us a better perspective.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 11:27 PM
If he is, then I think in case Riff Raff is removed from the Office of President of Lotastaan – by accident or otherwise – then Gen. Mohamad Aziz Khan – would claim the Presidency of Lotastaan
I have already started countdown. rhytha, There is no advantage of visiting Paki land other than making Indian p-sec happy. India will lose more incase something happens to ABV.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 11:48 PM succession of startling developments in Pakistan has left analysts from Islamabad to Washington guessing. At the center of the puzzle is Pakistan's military ruler, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who is either losing or tightening his grip on power and either democratizing his rule or moving closer to hard-line Islamic radicals. Twice in the last two weeks would-be assassins have nearly blown up General Musharraf's car as his motorcade drove through the tightly guarded military center of Rawalpindi. Between the two attempts, General Musharraf announced a surprising deal with an alliance of anti-American Islamic parties in which he pledged to give up his powerful post as army chief by next December and submit to a parliamentary vote on completing the rest of his presidential term, originally set to run through 2007. Even at its most transparent, Pakistani politics are difficult to decode. The shifting domestic and international alliances made by its leaders do not always turn out to be what they seem. Right now, things are even murkier than usual. Large numbers of radical Islamists, military officers and secular democrats are furious with General Musharraf. Other members of these same groups are making tactical alliances with him. He has been America's ally in Afghanistan, for which Washington has rewarded him and Pakistan well. Yet he has been unable to secure Pakistan's borders against a resurgent Taliban and has been equivocal toward Kashmiri terrorists. The military is Pakistan's dominant institution, and General Musharraf is its most visible representative. His public break with the Taliban and recent conciliatory statements over Kashmir might have alienated important military supporters. Some Pakistanis say that the Rawalpindi attacks could never have breached tight security without army help. No clear explanation has emerged yetfor his deal with Islamic parties and promise to resign as army chief. President Bush recently declared that Washington would end its bad habit of relying on authoritarian leaders like General Musharraf to ensure American security. "Stability," he rightly said, "cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty." That insight should guide Washington's long-term strategy toward Pakistan. Its immediate challenge is to unravel the mysteries around General Musharraf and discover what is really going on there.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 27 2003, 11:54 PM
Vajpayee 'enjoys' war epic LOC Indo-Asian News Service New Delhi, December 27 Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee "enjoyed" watching the war epic LOC, an aide said on Saturday. "The Prime Minister saw the four-hour-long film with his family members at his official residence on Friday night," the aide added. Vajpayee had cancelled a planned holiday in Jaipur on account of "pressing engagements" on the diplomatic and political fronts.[Problem in Pakistan-even GOI is counting] The Prime Minister is scheduled to leave for Islamabad on January 3 for the SAARC summit to be held from January 4-6. He is also preoccupied with an impending cabinet reshuffle, officials said.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 28 2003, 12:38 AM
QUOTE (rhytha @ Dec 27 2003, 05:41 PM)
can anyone list the advantages and the disadvantages of ABV going for the saarc summit and refusing to go for security purposes? i think that will give us a better perspective.
rhytha : Here is my humble contribution : Two Scores and Five Months ago – 25th March 2000 to be more correct – the Forty Second President of the United States of America, William Jefferson Clinton made a Five-Six Hour Visit to Islamabad in Pakistan. This was about Eighteen Months before the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001. At this time the Al Qaida was still looked at benignly by very large groups within the CIA. The only Danger envisaged in respect to President Clintons visit at that time was the “so called” Pakistani Terrorist who participated in Cross Border Terrorism in India. People will, no doubt, remember the USA’s Security Arrangements in Islamabad to protect President Clinton. As an example all roads were vacated and President Clinton’s Motorcade was preceded, accompanied and followed by hordes of American Security Personnel, in Cars, Wagons and also on Foot. There was hardly any Civilian Pakistanis on the roads / sidewalks – footpaths. From photographs of President Clinton’s Motorcade in Islamabad we can notice that the Motorcade kept to the Right Side of the Road (just like in the USA and of course the Continent) whereas in Pakistan the traffic keeps to the Left Side of the Road. It is evident that there was not a single Pakistan, who could be trusted, was present in the vicinity of the Motorcade. In addition there was the famous Arrival by Air when there was an additional “decoy” Aircraft to check for the Pakistani Terrorists playing around with their “Stingers” Now with the passing of these Four Score and Five Months, the Horrendous September Eleven 2001 incident, the Afghanistan War, the hounding of the Al Qaida, the two attempt – within a fortnight - on President Musharraf’s life including the latest one which nearly succeeded makes it imperative for Prime Minister Vajpayee to cancel his visit to Islamabad in the foreseeable future. I have not taken the two previous attempts on President Musharraf’s life into consideration, as if we do, then it is even more essential for Prime Minister Vajpayee to cancel his visit to the SAARC Conference at Islamabad. On the negative side the USA and its poodles will hem and haw about India not taking the right steps towards peace with Pakistan, but, at such a juncture the Indian Government can always refer to the Safety and Security Measures taken by the USA Security Services during President Clinton’s visit in Islamabad. There is no way that India’s Security Agencies could provide such a cover for Prime Minister Vajpayee during his stay in Islamabad for 48 to 72 Hours. Cheers
Posted by: vishal Dec 28 2003, 01:14 AM
I think ABV should prepare backup plan for LK ready about what to do if such thing happens(god forbid) in lotastaan.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 28 2003, 01:22 AM NEW DELHI: Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee will head to rival Pakistan for the January 4-6 South Asian summit despite an assassination bid on President Pervez Musharraf, the government said Saturday. "The prime minister will go there," said Foreign Secretary Shashank, who uses only one name. President Musharraf has said he is the target. He is making fool-proof arrangements. We are going by that," Shashank told reporters. Fifteen people including two suicide bombers were killed Thursday when two cars packed with explosives rammed Musharraf's motorcade at a petrol station in Rawalpindi near the capital Islamabad. Vajpayee is due to be among seven South Asian leaders attending the summit of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation. The meeting comes amid a drive by India and Pakistan to normalise relations after a military standoff in 2002. THOSE WHOM THE GODS ……….., THEY FIRST MAKE THEM LOSE THEIR MARBLES Cheers
Posted by: vishal Dec 28 2003, 01:37 AM
western world will extend hand of help to lotastaan if ABV got out there.Reason is simple.Noone in WEST want end of problems for india,upcoming power in asia(after china) and second reason is its hindu nation so,as per vatican nation it must not become powerfull. this can be true if it is believed that western leaders still have colonial insticts and christian fundamentalism.(a report from washington condemned BJP as hindu fundamentalists supporter!)
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 28 2003, 01:53 AM
vishal : What do you expect? A Brigade comprising of GIs, Tommies, Froggies and Von Hitlers? Can you visualize what this will do to the Lotastaani’s ECH AND DEE? The Lotastaanis will never agree. PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 28 2003, 02:19 AM
I still hope and wish ABV cancells his trip to Lottaasthan. Senators get threatening letters from banned outfit Warned against giving vote of confidence to Musharraf By Rauf Klasra ISLAMBAD: The Treasury benches in the Senate shocked the Upper House on Friday by revealing that parliamentarians had received threatening letters from the London-based, Hizbul Teheer, that warned them in the strongest words against supporting President Pervez Musharraf and the Legal Framework Order (LFO), when it would come for approval in House. Senator Abbas Kumaili, who read out some of the contents of the letter, even claimed that since receipt of the letter, he himself had seen many suspected people, roaming around the Parliament Lodges, where over 440 parliamentarians were staying, and feared for the lives of all those who would give vote of confidence for Musharraf next week. Senator Abbas Kumaili also criticised the religious forces and the leaders of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) in the Senate for their role in "poisoning the minds of students at Madaris in the name of sectarianism". He told the Senate that many of the members of the Upper House had received this letter from the banned outfit. Kumaili said the letter clearly warned them not to vote for Musharraf in the Senate because "Gen Musharraf was working for the American interests in Pakistan and he had helped the US in routing of the Muslims". Kumaili said that the letter clearly showed that some forces within the country were unhappy with the recent agreement over the LFO and they were out to frustrate the entire democratic process as the deal did not serve their interests. He said the recent attempt on the life of General Musharraf could also be part of this discontentment among some forces and thus they might have tried to kill Musharraf. Earlier, Senator Abbas Kumaili also criticised the speech made by the MMA leader Maulana Sirajul Haq, who stated that no religious school was involved in the terrorist activities in the country. Kumaili said even today the religious schools were imparting "poisonous teaching" and the religious leaders were delivering hard-hitting speeches in their Friday sermons. The senator said why not all the religious forces issue a decree, terming all the followers of five religious schools of thought, including the Shias as Muslim and whosoever kill any of them was not a Muslim.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 28 2003, 05:08 AM Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 28 2003, 07:41 AM argue.gif ISLAMABAD: General Pervez Musharraf on Monday warned the Indians that Pakistan can “root out” the fence being built on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir “at any time of its choice. But his remarks to Kashmiri leaders were not allowed by the military government to be published by the Pakistan Press. Musharraf made the threat at a meeting with Kashmiri leaders who met him for four hours on Monday, December 22, 2003, primarily at the request of the military government to explain to them the background of Musharraf’s latest U-Turn in which he had said the UN resolutions on Kashmir had been “set aside” by Pakistan and both countries should step ahead of their "stated positions." A local news agency released the story based on the meeting between Musharraf and the Kashmiri leaders and also included his threat to root out the Indian fence. However, within a matter of hours, the Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed and other officials of the Information Ministry, including one Mr. Ashfaq Gondal, called all newspaper offices to drop the threat which Musharraf had made. ....
Posted by: Mudy Dec 28 2003, 11:39 AM,00050004.htm pakee.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 28 2003, 12:20 PM
Someone made this prediction on 23 Nov 2003 based on vedic astrology Gen. Parvej musharaf 11th August 1943, 1000 hrs, Delhi – Virgo Ascendant Moon in Scorpio, Ketu in Capricorn, Mars in Aries, Saturn in Gemini, Sun Rahu & Jupiter © in Cancer, Mercury & Venus in Leo He is going through Mars Mahadasha, which is lord of 3rd house as well as 8th lord and strongly aspecting the Moon in 3rd house of power. He has also got strong planets in 10th houses from Ascendant, Moon & Sun. He came into power in Mars Mahadasha and will be out during Mars Mahadasha itself. Right now, Gen. Musharaf may not be realizing but he should know that somebody within his own country is conspiring to kill him. If he is able to save himself in December’03/January’04 because of transit Jupiter’s benevolence then he may get some small lease of life. But September’04 onwards transit Saturn will also add fire to such a scenario since transit Jupiter would not be of much help because of its combust position to Sun in natal chart. According to Jaimini Karaka’s he is going through Atmakaraka-Amatyakaraka Mahadasha-Antardasha that being excellent rajayoga condition means that he will be on the throne when this happens.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 28 2003, 03:10 PM RAWALPINDI, Dec 27: One of the suicide bombers, who attacked the president's convoy on Thursday, is suspected of having links with a militant organization, Al Jihad, security sources said here on Saturday. The security sources claimed that the evidence gathered so far pointed towards the possibility that the assailant was one Muhammad Jamil, son of Muhammad Sabeel. He was driving the white Suzuki van at the time of the attack and had tried to enter the presidential convoy from the Total filling station. The sources said preliminary investigations have shown that he was mentally a 'maniac', and that his family had severed their links from him. He was a resident of Rawalakot and was in his mid-thirties. His vehicle, after trampling to death constable Mohammad Saddiq, hit the car carrying Military Intelligence chief Lt-Gen Nadeem Taj. Two workers of the car dealer through whom he had purchased the van have also been taken into custody, whereas the car dealer himself has been asked to remain in touch with the police. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed on Saturday announced that the government "has been able to track down the group linked to the attack on the president." Local police on Saturday raided different places and picked up several people. Most of them belonged to religious groups. Meanwhile, sub-inspector Sherzaman, who died while stopping the other car from entering the motorcade, had been released by the military officials only two days back. He was being questioned in connection with the Dec 14 bombing, which wrecked the Leh bridge seconds after the president's convoy had crossed it. The sub-inspector was on duty on the president's route on that occasion also. At the time of Thursday's incident, he was performing security duties near the PSO filling station. His colleagues said he was under intense stress ever since he was released by the military officials. One of the major concerns of the security staff of the president is that the terrorists could have infiltrated their ranks. These concerns have been raised by the precision with which the terrorists have been able to time their attacks on the presidential motorcade twice in a matter of 11 days. "On Thursday, at the time of the incident, there were two motorcades moving simultaneously on two different routes, but the terrorists somehow managed to know which one was being used by the president," the source said. Several squads of elite force have reached here from the neighbouring districts to augment the security arrangements. In a related development, the hospitals have been allowed to release the injured. The authorities had initially directed the hospitals not to release the injured as information gleaned from them could lead to important clues. Lotastaani Islamic Terrorism coming home to roots : This is interesting. One is Lotastaani and the other is a Chechan. I read somewhere that one of the suicide bombers was connected to the “Organization” whose leader was freed after the IA Hijack to Kabul. Cheers
Posted by: vishal Dec 28 2003, 03:22 PM
Mudy, bejan daruwalla has predicted serious health problems for vajpayee this year end and had asked him tobe carefull about his health.This was some months ago. do u have any other astro info regarding ABV?
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 28 2003, 03:24 PM
Lotastaani Suicide Bomber’s Let/Hizb – whatever – connection :
ISLAMAAD – The investigators of Thursday’s suicide attack on President Musharraf, have identified both assailants one of them being a Chechen and the second a member of Kashmiri militant outfits which was banned two years ago. . . The member of the banned Kashmiri group belonged to the outfit whose leader was released by India a few years ago while swapping passengers of a hijacked Indian plane in Kabul.
Posted by: Mudy Dec 28 2003, 09:28 PM
Pakistan will never openly say that Aziz was involved or any other General. Vishal, I have posted above prediction because it came true and hoping/wishing rest will also come true. Long live Mr. Astrologer. biggrin.gif
Posted by: rhytha Dec 28 2003, 10:11 PM
Old artcile, nevertheless dry.gif furious.gif A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier What one prominent Pakistani thinks his country should do with its atomic weapons In the center of the biggest traffic circle of every major city in Pakistan sits a craggy, Gibraltarish replica of a nameless peak in the Chagai range. This mountain is the home of Pakistan's nuclear test site. The development, in 1998, of the "Islamic Bomb," intended as a counter to India's nuclear capability, is Pakistan's only celebrated achievement since its formation, in 1947. The mountain replicas, about three stories tall, are surrounded by flower beds that are lovingly weeded, watered, and manicured. At dusk, when the streetlights come on, so do the mountains, glowing a weird molten yellow. Islamabad's monument to the atomic bomb occupies a rotary between the airport and the city center. Nearby stand models of Pakistan's two classes of missile: Shaheen and Ghauri. The Islamabad nuclear shrine stands at a place where the city is dissolving into an incoherent edge town of shabby strip malls and empty boulevards and rows of desolate government buildings. A little farther in one comes to the gridded blocks of gated homes. The neighborhoods are called sectors. The streets are numbered, not named. Late last year, after nearly two months in Pakistan, I paid the last of many visits to house No. 8 on street 19, sector F-8/2, a modern white mansion known as Zardari House. The house has been used by Asif Ali Zardari, the imprisoned husband of Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's exiled former Prime Minister. Neither Zardari nor Bhutto has been there for a long time. Zardari has been confined for five years, most recently in Attock Fort, a medieval fortress perched over the Indus River between Islamabad and Peshawar. He is charged with a slew of crimes: large-scale corruption; conspiracy in the murder of Bhutto's brother Mir Murtaza; conspiracy to smuggle narcotics. Bhutto, who also faces corruption charges in Pakistan, lives in Dubai with their three children. Pakistan's leader, General Pervez Musharraf, has promised to have her arrested and tried if she ever returns to Pakistan. Outside the gate to the empty Zardari House sits a man with his back to the wall, a sawed-off shotgun across his knees. I had been going there to consult with Brigadier Amanullah, known to his friends as Aman. Aman, in his early fifties and now retired, is lithe and gentle-natured and seemed to me slightly depressed. He works in a small office behind Zardari House, where, as the secretary to Benazir Bhutto in Islamabad, he coordinates Bhutto's efforts to return to Pakistan and regain its prime ministership. He also keeps in close touch with old colleagues, who include many powerful people in Pakistan. Aman was once the chief of Pakistan's military intelligence in Sind Province, which borders India. Pakistan's biggest city and a cultural center, Karachi, is in Sind. That put Aman squarely in the middle of things, his finger near many sorts of buttons. Today Aman is believed to act as Bhutto's liaison with the armed forces, and he maintains contacts with serving army officers, including senior generals. When I wanted to speak to someone in the Pakistani government, I asked Aman. When I wanted to speak to someone in the Taliban, or in military intelligence, or in the political opposition, I asked Aman. His replies were mumbled and monosyllabic. He never offered opinions. He would simply hear me out and, most times, tip his head and say, "Why not?" Within an hour after Aman and I parted, I would receive a phone call from his secretary. References would be made to "that man" or "that matter," and I would be given a phone number and a time to call. Having spoken with Aman, I was always expected. On the day of my final visit Aman seemed more sullen than usual. He ushered me into a room adjoining the office. The room was long and spare. There was an oil painting on the far wall. The other walls were empty and lined with cushioned chairs. Aman sat across from me. We had tea and spoke about the latest events. As we were wrapping up our conversation, I looked at the oil painting. It was a strange picture, a horizontal landscape about four feet across, with overtones of socialist realism. In the foreground a youthful Benazir Bhutto stood in heroic pose on an escarpment overlooking the featureless grid of Islamabad. Beside her stood her father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, a Prime Minister who in 1977 was ousted in a coup and two years later hanged. On the other side of Bhutto was Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the long-dead founding father of Pakistan. Their postures were exalted, their expressions a combination of pride and awe. Jinnah's arm pointed to the vast plain beyond the city, where a rocket was lifting out of billowing clouds of vapor and fire into the sky. Aman noticed me looking at the painting and followed my gaze. I asked him if Benazir Bhutto had commissioned it, and Aman said no. He told me that one day when she was still Prime Minister, an unknown man, an ordinary Pakistani citizen, had come to the gate of Zardari House with the picture and told Aman that he'd painted it for the Prime Minister and wanted to present it to her as a gift. Aman said that he was immediately transfixed by the painting. He called to Bhutto inside the house, but she refused to come down to see the man. Aman was persistent, and eventually she came down. "I insisted Benazir accept it as a gift," Aman told me. We both looked up at the painting in silence. "A rocket ship heading to the moon?" I asked. Aman tipped his head to the side. A smirk tugged at the corners of his mouth. "No," he said. "A nuclear warhead heading to India." I thought he was making a joke. Then I saw he wasn't. I thought of the shrines to Pakistan's nuclear-weapons site, prominently displayed in every city. I told Aman that I was disturbed by the ease with which Pakistanis talk of nuclear war with India. Aman shook his head. "No," he said matter-of-factly. "This should happen. We should use the bomb." "For what purpose?" He didn't seem to understand my question. "In retaliation?" I asked. "Why not?" "Or first strike?" "Why not?" I looked for a sign of irony. None was visible. Rocking his head side to side, his expression becoming more and more withdrawn, Aman launched into a monologue that neither of us, I am sure, knew was coming: "We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities—Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta," he said. "They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill off a hundred or two hundred million people. They should fire at us and it would all be over. They have acted so badly toward us; they have been so mean. We should teach them a lesson. It would teach all of us a lesson. There is no future here, and we need to start over. So many people think this. Have you been to the villages of Pakistan, the interior? There is nothing but dire poverty and pain. The children have no education; there is nothing to look forward to. Go into the villages, see the poverty. There is no drinking water. Small children without shoes walk miles for a drink of water. I go to the villages and I want to cry. My children have no future. None of the children of Pakistan have a future. We are surrounded by nothing but war and suffering. Millions should die away." "Pakistan should fire pre-emptively?" I asked. Aman nodded. "And you are willing to see your children die?" "Tens of thousands of people are dying in Kashmir, and the only superpower says nothing," Aman said. "America has sided with India because it has interests there." He told me he was willing to see his children be killed. He repeated that they didn't have any future—his children or any other children. I asked him if he thought he was alone in his thoughts, and Aman made it clear to me that he was not. "Believe me," he went on, "If I were in charge, I would have already done it." Aman stopped, as though he'd stunned even himself. Then he added, with quiet forcefulness, "Before I die, I hope I should see it."
Posted by: Mudy Dec 28 2003, 11:12 PM
Shows level of hatered among elites and educated class of Pakistan.
Posted by: Ram Dec 29 2003, 01:43 AM
Gentlemen, I have a question to the experts. With all the real or stage-managed attempts going on against Paki general Musa, I wonder why India is so keen for this detente with them? Why not just follow a status quo policy and watch as Musa stews in his own juice?
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 29 2003, 02:11 AM
Ram : India’s keenness for a détente with Lotastaan can be attributed as follows - It is quite possible that the USA and its Ilk are trying their best to use Pakistan for controlling Afghanistan. This requires a sizeable Lotastaani Army presence at the Border with Afghanistan. As such a détente with India will allow the Lotastanis to station more of their Army along the Afghanistan Border so as to inhibit the movement of the Al Qaida cadre from Afghanistan to Lotastaan especially the Tribal Areas where the writ of the Lotastaani Govrnment is questionable – to say the least. - It is quite possible that ABV is look for a place in History and peace with Lotastaan will ensure it. In addition ABV will possible share the Noble Peace Prize with Riff Raff. - In its present condition Lotastaan may just agree to LOC in Kashmir as the Border between India and Lotastaan. Of Course the Lotastaanis want much more – at a minimum the Vale of Kashmir. ABV most probably would, as seems from his present aggressiveness to visit Lotastaan for the SAARC Conference, agree to a sizeable amount of Indian Jammu and Kashmir in lieu of a Peace Treaty with Lotastaan. Lotastaan will sign such a Peace Treaty and then renounce / reject it at the first opportunity. We will be back to square one in terms of “conditions” but not in terms of “territory”. I suppose to sign the next Peace Treaty the Indian Government of that time will have to cede more territory from the remaining Jammu and Kashmir or possibly from Punjab and / or Rajasthan and / or Gujerat. - Finally with Peace between India and Lotastaan both India and Lotastaan will be able to contribute their Troops to Iraq and may be even in Afghanistan so that the USA can pull out its troops along with those of its European Allies. Disclaimer : These are the views of a layman – I am no expert. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 29 2003, 02:17 AM The second unsuccessful attempt on the life of Pakistan’s embattled President Gen Pervez Musharraf this week, only 11 days after the earlier attempt, underscores the point that someone out there is indeed determined to kill him. The assassination bids took place at an area where intelligence hounds are crawling in every inhabited nook and corner. Pakistan has God knows how many intelligence services, some big and some small. So it is strange that they could not query the explosives carrying vehicles, standing idly at two opposite petrol pumps close to the bridge that was the site of the mid-December attempt on life of Musharraf, who is also army chief. The incident took place in the Rawalpindi cantonment area, not too far from Corps Headquarters. General Headquarters itself could not be more than two kilometers or so away, not to mention military’s police checkpost. The assassination attempts on December 14 and 25 occurred at a time when Pakistan is an important member of the coalition against the “war against terror” led by the US government. Thus, the powers in this war can only take the attacks seriously. The US government would seriously want to investigate who exactly it is who wants to murder Musharraf. Pakistan’s officials are stressing the al-Qaeda network as the main suspect. Let us look this main suspect closely: According to this theory, the would-be killers are Islamic fanatics who had no problem acquiring the vehicles, the explosives, and full briefing of what to do, when and how. Clues emerge from the December 14 assassination attempt. There, the would-be killers expertly tied explosives to the underside of a bridge over which the President, with his security detail, was to pass. The bridge is situated on the main thoroughfare and its vicinity is well populated by military families. It is not more than a few hundred meters from an Army Corps headquarters and there is a military police checkpost on either side. The placing of the explosives must have taken at least an hour. The military and civilian sleuths could only be supposed to be thick on the ground, as the President passes over the bridge several times a day. How could the unknown assailants do their work undetected? Another circumstance that puzzles is the knowledge by the intending killers of the exact time, down to minutes and seconds, that Musharraf was to pass over the bridge. That presupposed help from someone along the route who could calculate the exact time the presidential motorcade would reach that bridge. In the end, the assassins’ timer was late in exploding by less than a minute—the delay was caused by a jamming device fit to the President’s car. This made several Pakistanis to suspect help from inside. The government indignantly denies such suspicious, though it continues to hammer away at the theme that al-Qaeda—and foreigners at that—is after Musharraf’s blood for his supposed betrayal of the Taliban and now the cause of Kashmir, the subject of a decades-long dispute with India. That motivation can scarcely be doubted, though the exact ideological identity of the assassins is still being debated. Al-Qaeda’s footprints are everywhere in Pakistan, and Pakistani authorities have arrested the maximum number of its leaders. It is true that Pakistan is a magnet for all Islamic militants from everywhere. For one reason or the other, Pakistan’s name props up every time a terrorist is arrested anywhere. He has either visited Pakistan or was trained there or has transited through it. Its religious parties’ leadership, particularly of Jamaate Islami (JI), has high prestige among Arab intellectuals that are attracted by militant Islam. But it was Jamiate Ulma-i-Islam (JUI), in its two main factions, that was the progenitor of Taliban and is extraordinary powerful in the two Pakistani provinces of Baluchistan and North West Frontier Province, which adjoin Afghanistan. Thanks to the popularity of ideas that militant Islam is supposed to inspire, both Taliban and al-Qaeda have a lot of popularity, support and protection there. The question is whether the major religious parties in Pakistan share any part of blame. Few Pakistanis accuse either JI or JUI of any terrorist action, though each has many front organizations that are virtually militias, well-armed and quite well-funded. Also, these parties, which constitute the bulk of the religious parties’ alliance called Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), have just made a constitutional deal with Musharraf. They have a share in the power in the governments of the two western provinces that the MMA controls. But the leadership gives no indication of being inclined to violence. On the contrary, it projects an image of moderation, reason and anxiety to strengthen democratic institutions in the country. Thus, the question is—are the would-be killers related to MMA? No one has raised a finger of accusation at MMA leaders. Musharraf himself is quite at home with them and has just cut a key political deal over a row over constitutional amendments. MMA leaders do exercise an indeterminate amount of influence over Musharraf: they support his regime’s key policies from outside while sitting on opposition benches in Parliament. It is an astute ploy: they have their eyes on the next election that cannot be too far away and they do not want to be seen on the side of a dictator, yet enjoy power in two provinces. Their workers can meantime go on spreading the message of establishing what they believe are Islam’s injunctions. At the same time, they have disassociated themselves with their earlier progeny, the Taliban and the Kashmir militants. But the latter groups are out there armed and well-funded, though perhaps operating autonomously with the help of some sections of the security apparatus itself. Without this link with the security apparatus, the Kashmir militancy cannot be sustained in the way it has so far been. The question remains to be answered about the link between these autonomous militant groups with the MMA. In formality they may be different, but ideologically they are not. Yet Musharraf’s position has to be understood. The government is committed to a pro-US policy, masterminded and run by Musharraf. Indirectly, the military is also committed to the causes for which Musharraf has become persona non grata with militant Islamic elements. How are the militant groups tolerated, then, and how can Musharraf cut political deals with godfathers of Taliban, if not al-Qaeda? Circumstances suggest that militant groups, the soulmates of al-Qaeda, have the support of powerful elements who use them when needed. They are focusing on just one person, not all the government or its policies about religious extremists. Ideology may not be the sole motivation in the assassination attempts, but the personal hurt felt in Musharraf’s betrayal of the Taliban and the Kashmir “mujahideen.” Otherwise, the rest of the religious lobby in Pakistan is happy enough to cooperate in the political sphere with Musharraf. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 29 2003, 03:53 AM
India’s keenness for a détente with Lotastaan can be attributed as follows: My take : Feel good environment before election, NDA is going for Apr-May election before snow will start melting. DDM and p-sec, cong-I are pain in neck regrading Pak-India, this move will counter them. One should keep in mind during partition ABV and other were in Punjab helping refugees. Setting up camps, feeding people and training Hindus to protect themself. During Punjabi suba agitation, ABV/RSS were against it. Trusting pakis is not in LKA, ABV and RSS dictionary. Peaceful India will bring prosperity in India, that is one and only reason he is trying to resolve issue and counter Mushy repetitive reminder of Kashmir. Giving any part of India is out of question, even RSS will not spare him. Noble Peace prize, I don't think he is a tratitor, will not fall for these sold prize. when he became pracharak, he took pledge to serve India and stayed bachelor.
Posted by: Ram Dec 29 2003, 04:01 AM
Peregrine: Thanks for your reply. But it is amazing to me that keenness with which India is seeking rapprochement with Pakis. I agree with quite a bit of what you say. But I vehemently disagree that ABV is about to trade off the valley for the sake of 'peace'. That would be the end of India as we know it, and ABV knows it. I am also surprised at one other thing. So far, nobody, neither the RSS or any of the BJP stalwarts chastised PM Vajpayee for his desperation to seek peace with the terrorists. And adding to my amazement, here is that dork Manoj Joshi with one more of his pithy analysis; almost saying that India will sink into the Indian ocean if ABV doesn't go:,curpg-1.cms I guess uneven Cohen, despite us folks despising him was right on the money. Recall, in the following Indian express interview with that dorkette Jyothi Malhotra, uneven Cohen warned that if India continues its status quo policy, sooner or later, a few Indian cities will be wiped out. Perhaps Musa issued that threat through his buddy uneven Cohen
Posted by: Krishna Dec 29 2003, 04:20 AM
Peregrine, I think I have to go with Mudy's take on this one. ABVji is just playing 'em all. Remember, he was the same PM who had a Kargil done on him when he was talking peace and visiting minar-e-sharif in TSPland. He ain't falling for Mushy's bluff. All IMHO!
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 29 2003, 04:51 AM
Mudy, Ram & Krishna : Breathes there an Indian with a soul so DEAD? I cannot say any more. Well political exigencies have their own results. A couple of days ago the Defence Minister George Fernandes was quoted as saying “There will be no de-militarization of Saichin Glacier until Cross Border Terrorism stops” i.e. if CBT ceases then the Indian Army will retreat from Saichin? Anyway from the link :,curpg-1.cms
At this late stage, a decision to cancel will torpedo the Saarc summit and set back the fragile Indo-Pak rapprochement. Vajpayee would be cast as a coward for backing off. But there is much at stake to view this simply as bravery or cowardice. **An attack on Vajpayee in Islamabad would embarrass Pakistan and could bring Indo-Pak relations to the brink of war.**
** : This is the most worrisome part. The death of ABV by an assassin in Lotastaan will have India make a response which could destroy Lotastaan. The only fly in the Ointment is that the World led by the USA will NEVER ALLOW India to respond in such a manner. In their distorted and inhuman ways the Lotastaani Martyr who “blows” up ABV is sure to be glorified in Lotastaan for the next Thousand Years, if not more. We have to ask the question : Is the burden of expectations more important than the Life of ABV? Note : No matter how many Treaties India signs with Lotastaan, eventually Lotastaan will dishonour all of them. That is the Nature of Lotastaan and Lotastaanis. The only way to ensure that Lotastaan does not “muck” around with India is that India must have at least Five times the Armed Might as Lotastaan. After all we have Seven Times the Population, nearly Seven Times the “Sea coast” and four Times the Area. If India spends Five Times as Pakistan on Defence then India will still spend less as a percentage of GDP in comparison with Lotastaan. With such an Indian Defence capability / superiority the Lotastaanis will crawl back under the stones where they came out from. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 29 2003, 04:58 AM
Well, ABV should not go. It is too expensive for India and treat for Pakistani and Ummah. Where is flu virus???
Posted by: Ashok Kumar Dec 29 2003, 05:11 AM
ABV is going primarily for two reasons: 1. To enahnce economic cooperation with SAPTA (south asia preferential trade agreement) and move towards a full fledged free trade agreement SAFTA (SA free trade agreement). 2. To consolidate south asian countries against terrorsim by formalizing some sort of treaty. These treaties wouldn't be very useful against Pakis, but could be useful to beat BD with whenever needed. If the matters keep on moving as they have, India will have to bite the bullet and act on BD support to rebels. Having a anti-terrorism treaty will come handy in the diplomatic arena. Mushy expects: That talks with ABV will lead to opening of the high level dialos between India and TSP about Kashmir. Nothing of substance is likely to emerge from the SAARC meet about Kashmir proper. Only possibility is whether India and TSP will agree on enhancing the dialog. It is weird though, that TSP thinks that mere enhancing the dialog level means India is considering handing over the valley to them on a platter. They will be disappointed of course.
Posted by: Ram Dec 29 2003, 07:18 AM
Gentlemen, Thanks all for joining in the debate. Here is my main worry. As Ashok pointed out, Paki expectations from this so called summit are sky high. If by the middle of the summit, Pakis realize that ABV is not playing ball, they might give a signal to their Jaish/LET 'boys' to get ABV, and manufacture a crisis. Of course, Pakis will then deny any official involvement and will say, this is what happens when India shows intransigence regarding Kashmir. They will further add insult to injury by calling on India to get Kashmir out of the way as a means to eradicate such 'extremism'. Is your blood boiling? Wait, there is more as India's humiliation isn't complete. Unkil will concur with Pakis and this time the uneven Cohens and the Madeline notbrights will say that USA must step in and impose a Kashmir solution to avoid a 'nuke flashpoint and stabilize their 'front-line ally' and modern day ataturk Musa. And finally, the final nail on ABV/India's coffin could very well come from Indians themselves; the Bollywood dumbos and the money hungry cricket officials will still sing "make love not war", and the pseudo secular scum like PureFool Bidwai, Arundathi Roy, Samira Bose etc who can't hide their glee and will declare that the era of "Hindu fascism" is dealt and death blow in India. Sorry for this pessimistic caricature folks, but just wanted to give you a summary of the horrendous constraints mother India faces in dealing with the Paki terrorist regime. Cheers
Posted by: Nalwa Dec 29 2003, 07:34 AM
Mr. Ram, Ashok Kumarji etc. Maaf karna, but these are all self imposed constraints. I sometimes strongly suspect that Atal Bihari Vajpayee WANTs to go, he wants peace with Pukistan. Warna, kya vajah hai Pakistan jaane kee? Do-Do baar. Was Lahore not sufficient, to get our face blackened by the islamic swine who inhabit Pukistan? In maadar c*odo kaa wohi gaana sunne. Kashmir is the root cause, it is the core issue, please vacate it.... Where is the hatred in Vajpayee's heart, the anger, the fury at the snakes who bit Mother India? Over 1000 years. furious.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 29 2003, 08:05 AM
Nalwa, Difference between La-hore and Islamabad visit is, first was to have peace with Pakiland, a neat love fest. This visit is SAARC. Indian subcontinent business meet. Only Paki leaders and media is screaming that it is other than SAARC, but ABV is stick to SAARC. Only problem I can see, if these fundoos and jehadi decides to eliminate whole SAARC leadership, it will be turmoil for whole South Asian countries.
Posted by: Ram Dec 29 2003, 08:50 AM
Mudy, I know you were not intentional in making this error: Only problem I can see, if these fundoos and jehadi decides to eliminate whole SAARC leadership, it will be turmoil for whole South Asian countries. When it comes to India, there is no difference between the Paki regime, the Paki elite, and the "fundoos and jehadi" foot soldiers.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 29 2003, 02:03 PM
Let us wait for 07-08 January 2004 to learn of India’s Loses or Gains due to ABV’s visit to Lotastaan. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 29 2003, 02:28 PM ISLAMABAD: Leaders of major Kashmiri militant groups are considering a unilateral ceasefire in the valley for two months to facilitate Pakistan and India in their talks during the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) summit next week, highly credible sources told Daily Times on Sunday. Sources said unofficially last week that Pakistan asked militant leaders for a temporary ceasefire in five districts of the Kashmir valley. However, Foreign Office spokesman Masood Khan and Military spokesman Major General Shaukat Sultan said they had no information about any ceasefire proposal. “Some government officials in their private positions are using their influence for a ceasefire with the Indian army in Held Kashmir. They are in contact with us,” said leader of a militant group that is active in Srinagar and Badgam districts. Sources said the purposed ceasefire would be announced before or after a meeting between Prime Minister Vajpaaye and President General Musharraf in Islamabad. “Gen Musharraf will meet Kashmiri guerrilla leaders next week to take them into confidence on proposals to be discussed with Mr Vajpayee,” sources claimed. The year 2001 was the first and last attempt at a ceasefire when a faction of the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen temporarily laid down their arms in Kashmir. Pir Syed Salahuddin, the supreme commander and a pro-Pakistani guerrilla leader, had successfully foiled the ceasefire and expelled Abdul Majeed Dar who announced a ceasefire without consulting him. Mr Dar was killed last year by the Indian army during a midnight operation. Cheers
Posted by: kautilaya Dec 29 2003, 04:19 PM
QUOTE (Nalwa @ Dec 29 2003, 07:34 AM)
Mr. Ram, Ashok Kumarji etc. Maaf karna, but these are all self imposed constraints. I sometimes strongly suspect that Atal Bihari Vajpayee WANTs to go, he wants peace with Pukistan. Warna, kya vajah hai Pakistan jaane kee? Do-Do baar. Was Lahore not sufficient, to get our face blackened by the islamic swine who inhabit Pukistan? In maadar c*odo kaa wohi gaana sunne. Kashmir is the root cause, it is the core issue, please vacate it.... Where is the hatred in Vajpayee's heart, the anger, the fury at the snakes who bit Mother India? Over 1000 years. furious.gif
Somhow I feel that vajpayee is following very chanakyian policy -- a) he claims he wants peace -- but the peace negotiation will go on forever. b. he will continue talking about trade. if this part is successful, it will make pakis dependent on India, if not see a), and they will just keep on talking/negotiating in circles -- one step forward, one step backward c) whenever kashmir issue comes up, he starts talking about cross-border terrorism to bring the pressure back, and moving oe step backwards so the algo becomes start a) -- b is the step forward, c) is te step backward. continue forever. this a-b-c cycle is important because you always want the foreign investors to feel we are making some progress towards peace, even if in real terms there is none. d) simultaneously whenever a step forward happens, pressurize for ceasefire, and speed up the border fencing. even otherwise during a,b,c cotinue the border fencing e) while d) cuts off the puki cross-border terrorism to trickle(by the way fencing punjab border was one of the crucial steps in stopping terrorism in punjab). keep creating divisions between kashmiri terrorist orgs(already happening according to news coming out lately). speed this up by concentrating on development etc. in kashmir. this will also reduce support among the local populace. f) continue squeezing pukis by getting friendlier with afganistan, iran, china etc. g) while a to f continue, speed up military modernization, and border management modernization. Within 5 years of continuous a to g some or all of the following will happen-- 1) Pakistan will become dependent on India economically 2) It will be squeezed from all sides militarily/economically etc. 3) d and e will bring results and terrorism would be much less and manageable. you can already see some efect of it in increased tourism in kashmir to record levels. 4) India will be so far ahead of pukis militarily and economically that pukis will absolutly have no international clout left, and they will just be a fly on the Indian elephent's back. This is the standard chanakyian-yindoo art of doing something while seeming to be doing nothing.
Posted by: mohit Dec 29 2003, 07:15 PM
QUOTE (kautilaya @ Dec 29 2003, 04:19 PM)
This is the standard chanakyian-yindoo art of doing something while seeming to be doing nothing.
ABV’s Chanakian Vidhi did not help the last two times with the brutes and gorillas so what hopes do we at ABV’s third meeting.
Posted by: O Vijay Dec 29 2003, 08:40 PM
To be blunt, Pakistan has both nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. So, even if India completely dominates the Pakis militararily and economically, millions of Indians will still be under the threat. Trusting the Pakis not to use them while they are being boxed into a corner will be a very costly mistake. In addition to various military and civilian defensive measures, India must have 1) realtime intelligence on the location and movement of Paki nukes 2) and precise knowledge about the people who are in charge of them and their whereabouts. We have to know everything about them, including the type of toilet paper they use.
Posted by: Viren Dec 29 2003, 10:26 PM ABVs recent peace overtures towards Lottastan should be considered in context of entire geo-political scenario rather than one-point hate-those-jihadis agenda. Within 48 hours of ABVs speech in Srinagar in April, Op Saarp Vinasash commenced. Lately our forces are busy on our North East sector battling scums/vermins while building the fence in Kashmir. So, methinks ABV is just being a shrewed 'Chanakian' with respect to Mushy and his military junta and is just buying time for now. IMHO, ABV should never have agreed to SAARC meeting in TSP because of our own policy and/or procedures to boycott everything TSP. But looks like he might be going ahead with his SAARC trip in TSP irrespective of security concerns. Now, this in my opinion (maybe I stand alone amongst other forumities tongue.gif ) it's a very strong signal to jihadis that we don't give a f*ck to what you do with whom in your terroristan - we'll do what is in our best interest. Also ABV should dictate who he want's to meet while he's in TSP - Mushy or Jamali or both or both separately or both one on one. We need to dictate our terms on who/where/how/when/with whom we'll talk. They can keep crowing their 'root cause' as much as they want - it's only relevant if we acknowledge it. By ABV meeting Mushy he might actually giving him the proverbial kiss of death or not? Depends a lot on whether the two attempts were stage managed or not. In past there have been several attempts on Mushy, what's so important to these two in past weeks? Anyway, if ABV does go to TSP, I hope our troops at brought to a heightened state of alert (all leaves on hold, gun-powder dry, engines buzzing, pass the nuke combination to LKA etc...) and hope it's given as much publicity as possible in the terroristan.
Posted by: Viren Dec 29 2003, 10:45 PM Now I'm begining to believe that those blasts were stage managed. biggrin.gif furious.gif Since when has India cared for Mush's tush? All this while India MEA has been telling US SD to see a regime in TSP beyond the present military junta. So why are these dorky self contradictory statements being issued by ex-diplos? We didn't give a fig's leaf when Zia flew to his 72 beloved in jannat - so why should we care for Mush?
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 12:39 AM Information Minister Sheikh Rashid says the suicide-bombers who nearly killed General Pervez Musharraf in Rawalpindi were a mix of outsider and insider jihadis. The police have gone and arrested some youths in Azad Kashmir after the ‘separated’ face of one suicide bomber was identified as belonging to one Jameel who was apparently said to have been involved with a number of jihadi organisations in the past and had trained in Afghanistan. Chechens too have been named as possible suspects and there is also a reference in the press to jihadis on the Indian side of Kashmir. Some analysts infer from the first attack on General Musharraf in Karachi that Jaish-e-Mohammad and Al Jihad groups could be involved. (We don’t know how Al Jihad has cropped up in the debate unless Harkat-e-Jihad-e-Islami is actually meant, which was the only Pakistani organisation taken over by the Taliban and given headquarters in Kandahar. Surprisingly, this outfit remains unbanned.) Some Urdu papers have coyly fingered Mushtaq Zargar who was released along with Umar Sheikh and Masood Azhar from an Indian jail in exchange for the hijacked Air India aircraft in Afghanistan in1999. That is taken to suggest that the attack was planned somewhere in Poonch, implying that someone could be trying to distract attention by linking the latest attacks to General Musharraf’s ‘betrayal’ of the Kashmir cause. But Zargar for a time was running his Al Umar outfit from Azad Kashmir with members drawn from among the Pakistani population. It was Osama bin Laden that got three of his favourite boys released from India through the 1999 hijack. Recently a Lahore journalist was rapped by the agencies after he simply reported that the former Taliban foreign minister Mullah Mutawakkil had attested that the hijackers, while negotiating the hijack with the Indians, were taking instructions from Islamabad. The hijackers and Masood Azhar had belonged to Harkatul Mujahideen which was earlier known as Harkatul Ansar. When the two leaders of Harkatul Mujahideen, Fazlur Rehman Khaleel and Masood Azhar, quarrelled in 2000, Osama bin Laden facilitated the creation of Jaish-e-Muhammad with the help of Mufti Shamzai of the Karachi Banuri Mosque, including the despatch of a dozen new double-cabin trucks for Fazlur Rehman Khaleel. Jaish was promptly settled in a new training camp. It emerged as the most feisty fighting arm of jihad in Kashmir. It got out of the hand of its ‘handlers’ when it attacked the assembly building in Srinagar. But Jaish and Harkat are all traced back to Sipah Sahaba whose leader Maulana Azam Tariq, before he was killed, was supporting the Jamali government in the National Assembly after being ‘mistakenly’ elected in the 2002 elections. Let us take one example from the incidents of terrorism that happened in Karachi in 2002 to see how the entire gambit of Deobandi jihad is interlinked and was run by the Taliban/Osama bin Laden combine. FBI and Pakistani intelligence agencies arrested an Egyptian Arab Hisham al-Wahid from Saudi Arabia and brought him to Pakistan. He guided the agencies to Gaggar Phatak in Karachi where from behind the police station in a garage three activists of Jaish-e-Muhammad and two of Lashkar Jhangvi were arrested. These activists belonged to Sargodha and had been trained in the Akora Khattak seminary of Maulana Samiul Haq. These activists then guided the police to Gulshan Hadeed in Steel Town where in a bungalow the police arrested one Iraqi and two Yemeni Arabs. The police also searched Mujahid Colony Nazimabad and arrested Rafeequl Islam of Sipah Sahaba. It recovered cassettes showing Mullah Umar and Osama bin Laden and books on jihad. Rafeeq was described by the press as a ‘companion of Osama bin Laden’. Harkat-e-Jihad-e-Islami owed allegiance to the Afghan leader Nabi Muhammadi who died in exile in Islamabad. It developed that the majority of the Taliban were from Nabi Muhammadi’s jihadi outfit which our agencies did not think too much of during the Afghan war against the Soviets. After the rise of the Taliban, however, Harkat became Kandahar’s favourite outfit. Its Pakistani fighters were sent out to do battle in Central Asia and Chechnya. (Hence the Chechnyan contact which culminated in 2002 in the memorial in Kohat dedicated to the first Chechen martyrs of Al Qaeda being erected by the local PML-N MNA). The leader of Jihad-e-Islami, Qari Saifullah Akhtar, fled to Pakistan after the rout of the Taliban in 2001 and was never apprehended. He and Masood Azhar and Fazlur Rehman Khaleel were nearly never kept under surveillance even after the UN resolutions in 2001. In 2002, over one hundred jihadi outfits in Azad Kashmir quickly wound up and the big ones merged after changing their names. The jihad has come back to haunt Pakistan. And it haunts the chief of an army that earlier helped create the jihad for its proxy wars. General Musharraf is doing the right thing by Pakistan by putting an end to the jihadi options. But he must realise that the jihadis are all here. Those who organised the jihad are all here too, inside and outside the army. And the MMA with whom he is preparing to cohabit has won its seats in parliament on the pledge of returning Pakistan to the system of the Taliban. There is no doubt that a majority of the Pakistanis support General Musharraf’s campaign to rid Pakistan of terrorism but the minority who block his way and want to kill him are financially powerful and weaponised to the teeth. He must hold firm to the policy he is pursuing but he must also know that the plots against him could not have been made without some “inside” help and that some of the state organisations that are now deputed to protect him have the past reflex of sympathising with his would-be killers. *
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 12:57 AM
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 01:21 AM ... Noting that incidents of terrorism have increased within Pakistan, which has "become the epicentre of terrorism all over the world", Foreign Secretary Shashank said, "but that does not mean security cannot be taken care of". Is New Delhi satisfied with the security arrangements in Islamabad? "We will tell you when we come back," he quipped. mad.gif
Posted by: Viren Dec 30 2003, 01:26 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 29 2003, 03:51 PM)
Is New Delhi satisfied with the security arrangements in Islamabad?
How about ABV landing in Is-slum-a-bad with say 700K troops armed to the teeth? tongue.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 01:39 AM
Viren, only 40 Black cat cammandos. India missed oppurtunity in 1971. They should have made much smaller pieces of Pakiland. Inshah allah this time 700K Indian troop would have been standing in Is-slum-bad. I still hope he should cancel this trip.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 30 2003, 01:47 AM The year 2003 might well be remembered for the international recognition of India's credentials to be a great power and the first fumbling steps by New Delhi to take on a military role beyond the subcontinent. For years, India was seen as having the potential to become a great power. But whoever pointed to that prospect kept his or her fingers crossed. Could India remain forever an emerging power, but never really arriving? The grounds for that scepticism have begun to disappear. That there is a reordering of the hierarchy of great powers under way became apparent during the war to oust the regime of Saddam Hussein and create a new Iraq. The Bush administration demonstrated that it had the political will and the capacity to conduct a war against the wishes of the United Nations Security Council. That the United States outranks all other powers by a long distance was indeed re-established. But the significance of the Iraq war lay in the fact that it was "Old Europe" which led the political opposition to the US. Equally important was the reality that the rising powers from Asia—China and India—exploited the opportunity in Iraq to elevate their own political standing in the world. China, to be sure, voted along with France, Germany and Russia in the UN against the US. But unlike the Europeans, the Chinese did not obstruct America in the Gulf. More importantly, it offered to bail out the US in the second international crisis that was unfolding in the Korean Peninsula. China was not going to complain if the US was going to be preoccupied in the Middle East for a long time. It was a moment to take advantage of and expand Beijing's influence in Asia. In responding to the war in the Gulf, India too went against the grain of its traditional policy. The government kept its mouth shut and let Parliament give vent to popular anger against the US going to war in Iraq without apparent reason. Going a step further, New Delhi actively negotiated with Washington the terms for sending a large contingent of troops to post-war Iraq. The eventual Indian decision to back off reflected the prudent assessment in New Delhi of the balance between political risks and rewards in the Iraqi venture. But the fact that Washington was desperate for Indian involvement and New Delhi came close to saying "yes" underlined the Indian power capabilities and political will to exercise them far beyond its shores. Underlying the new importance of China and India has been their growing economic strength and a willingness to assume the responsibilities that come with being a great power. Demographics and the shifting bases of technology will ensure that before long, India and China outrank the old powers of Europe. While this trend has been manifest in China for a while, it is visible in India only now. More than a decade of economic reforms, the prospect of emerging the hub of information technology, the sense of being a nuclear weapon power, and purposeful diplomacy have begun to transform New Delhi's perceptions about itself and its international image. But the local constraints on India's global aspirations seemed intractable, given its enduring problems with China and Pakistan. In 2003, India has begun to recognise a simple fact: to unleash its strategic energies it must resolve two of its greatest problems—the boundary dispute with China and the Kashmir question with Pakistan. Atal Behari Vajpayee decided to gamble on both the fronts in 2003. During his visit to China, he initiated what could be a historic negotiation with China on resolving the boundary dispute. He is preparing the nation to negotiate on the pragmatic basis of "give and take". If that involves "giving up" territories that India has claimed for so many decades, then so be it. The same self-assurance was visible when Vajpayee broke with the prevailing opinion in his own party and the government to renew the engagement with Pakistan during his visit to Srinagar in April. Despite the failures at Lahore in 1999 and Agra in 2001, Vajpayee has once again confirmed he is willing to take big political risks on Pakistan. Vajpayee's attempts to resolve the boundary dispute with China and the Kashmir question with Pakistan may or may not succeed. But the very attempt to address them purposefully creates new strategic space for India and makes its claims to be a great power more credible. C. Raja Mohan is professor of South Asian Studies at the Jawaharlal Nehru University and a columnist for The Hindu) Raja Mohan’s credentials of being a JLNite says it all. Being a Leftist it would be better – rather than India making territorial concessions – for Raja Mohan to ask his masters in Beijing to get out of Aksai Chin, Stop mucking around in N E India as well as get the H*ll out of Tibet. No Sir, he can’t upset his masters in Beijing – one cannot bite the hand that feeds. In addition why cannot Lotastaan negotiate on the pragmatic basis of "give and take". If that involves "giving up" territories that Lotastaan has claimed for so many decades them that is what Lotastaan must do. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 01:51 AM
He is preparing the nation to negotiate on the pragmatic basis of "give and take". If that involves "giving up" territories that India has claimed for so many decades, then so be it
Mohan sahab is all for "give" and where is "take" option. It is time for India to start "take" and stop "give"
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 30 2003, 01:53 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 30 2003, 01:51 AM)
Mohan sahab is all for "give" and where is "take" option. It is time for India to start "take" and stop "give"
Mudy : Exactly my feelings. Thanks Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 30 2003, 03:05 AM Apropos Rangudu’s letter “ Compatible Jihad” dated 18-12-03. He says that I must have spent a lot of time digging up some bad news on India, I offer my congratulations. I must feel quite happy now”. On the contrary Rangudu wastes awful lot of his precious time digging up bad stories on Pakistan to put in Rangudu’s words, “ I’m only stating the truth “. If Rangudu finds Pakistan bashing a source of entertainment, then I suggest he watch cartoons.-SAMINA AKHTAR, Lahore, via e-mail, December 18. Cheers cheers.gif
Posted by: Nalwa Dec 30 2003, 05:13 AM
Wonder if the C in C.Raja Mohan stands for ch-utia, or coward or what. This attitude, so common in India is the reason we were enslaved by so few for so long. Our time to give is over. Our time to "take back" is fast approaching (atleast we hope so) All we have to do is keep grinding the Paki's balls, till they cry out for their allah. We have to give them nothing, no land, no respect, no concessions, no relationship, no trade . In short NOTHING. If ABV has bilateral discussions on the sidelines of the Saarc meeting - he will be committing a grievous BLUNDER - of the same magnitude as when he went to La-whore. History will not forgive him - or the BJP .
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 06:24 AM Being a nice guy I will do it on my own. ABV trip will depends on Jan 1 sham results.
Posted by: Ram Dec 30 2003, 09:05 AM
Friends, Here is a letter I wrote to the Paki Asghar "Butt" who was all praise for that old b$@%^&d Khushwant Singh for supposedly puking out the 'truth' on PTV that Kashmiris hate India, but Indian govt won't tell its people the truth. Kashmiris hating India!!!! Dear Mr. Asghar Butt, I read your article in the December 29th issue of "The Nation": I agree with some of what you say, except for the so called 'state terrorism' by India part. But lets not argue on that because you and I are steadfast in our views. But I would like to correct a misrepresentation from your article. You say that only veteran journalist Mr Khushwant Singh knows the 'truth' about Kashmiris hating India, and Indian govt is not relaying this 'truth' to its citizens. Fact of the matter Mr. Asghar Butt is that most Indians do know very well that a section of Kashmiri Muslims do hate India. But what may not be to your liking are the following facts: 1) Just because some Kashmiri Muslims hate India and want to secede, India is not obliged to let them. Moreover, there are a significant number of Kashmiris who don't hate India and are happy to remian with India. (Recall the previous elections when despite your frantic efforts to sabotage them, over 50% voted, and those who hate India, refrained). 2) Almost all Indians, except perhaps those of Mr Khushwant Singh's persuasion, believe that Pakistan has no right, none whatsoever to fuel terrorism using Pakistani jiahdis along with India hating Kashmiri Muslim colluders. 3) Indians universally will NOT accept a bunch of India hating Kashmiri Muslims' desire to make the Kashmir valley part of Pakistan. Thus, Mr. Asghar Butt, Indians are not as ill informed as you think. You may then ask as to how India can satisfy the 'self determination' desire of India hating Kashmiri Muslims. It is simple. Both India and Pakistan hold a 'plebiscite' to determine who those Kashmiri Muslims who want to join Pakistan are. And those who do, are welcome to leave the Kashmir valley and perhaps relocate to Islamabad or Lahore or any of the other ‘pristine’ Pakistani cities and join their brothers and sisters. Indian army will facilitate this process so that they encounter no difficulties in fulfilling their life-long desire. And as a major concession, India will make the 'plebiscite' universal across entire India. There are pockets in India where Muslims dream of Pakistan which your ISI use from time to time to conduct massacres and bomb blasts. If they want to join you, they are also welcome to leave. I am sure you will welcome them with open arms. Finally, if you want, India will also give you Mr Khushwant Singh on a silver platter. He will tell you more ‘truths’ about India that Indian govt is suppressing. What do you think, Mr. Asghar Butt, don't you think such a population exchange in a free, fair, and peaceful manner will usher in a new era of prosperity for the entire Indian subcontinent? Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 10:18 AM
Ram, Excellent, made my day. clap.gif cheers.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 30 2003, 02:43 PM With what? We could be so lucky. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Dec 30 2003, 05:59 PM
Posted by: Mudy Dec 30 2003, 09:00 PM
17. During our Prime Minister's forthcoming visit to Pakistan to attend the SAARC summit, the Indian delegation should keep recalling in their mind the similar charm offensive from the late Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto and his advisers before the Shimla accord. Once they achieved their immediate objective of getting their 72,000 prisoners of war released and the Indian Army vacate conquered pockets of territory on the western front, they discarded their mask. 18. They should recall the similar charm offensive of Benazir Bhutto when the late Rajiv Gandhi went to Islamabad for the SAARC summit in 1989. Even while she was wining and dining him and his entourage, she was secretly giving clearance to the ISI to launch its proxy war in J&K as she herself recently admitted. 19. And the similar charm offensive of Nawaz Sharif at Lahore in February,1999, the painful and embarrassing sequel to which is still fresh in our memory. 20. The lesson: Judge Pakistan and its rulers, political or military, not by their external charm, but by their internal conviction and mindset and by their actions on the ground. There is no evidence that they have changed. 21. Our policy-making on Pakistan has to be determined by the kind of cold calculation and determination which the US exhibits to protect its national interests and not by any feel good factor or opportunistic charm offensives. 22. Let us not walk into a mirage and regret again.
Posted by: Viren Dec 30 2003, 09:09 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 29 2003, 04:09 PM)
Viren, only 40 Black cat cammandos.
thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif Not Fair mad.gif Going by Ayub's math, ABV needs atleast 10 times more security cover compared to what Mushy has no? Remember 1 Paki soldier = 10 yindoo soldiers? So to be equal-equal ABV get's 10 times more than what Mushy gets laugh.gif. Or Mushy will have to reduce his security detail to 4 (since ABV is getting 40); make is 3, since Mushy is a one solid gola kammadu himself tongue.gif
Posted by: Viren Dec 30 2003, 09:12 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Dec 30 2003, 05:13 AM)
With what?
Posted by: Mudy Dec 31 2003, 01:18 AM,001300270001.htm specool.gif Moga, December 31 Pakistan has named two roads after Lala Lajpat Rai, one of the leading lights of the freedom struggle the subcontinent waged against British colonial rule. It is for the first time since partition that Pakistan has named a road after a leader seen primarily as Indian. The Quetta Municipal Corporation named one of the roads of the town after Lala Lajpat Rai on Lalaji's 75 martyrdom day on November 18. The Hyderabad Sind Municipal Corporation named one of its main roads after Lalaji. This was stated in Moga on Tuesday by Satya Pal, Secretary Servant of People Society of India and also secretary Lala Lajpat Rai Birth Place Memorial Committee (Dhudike) who had just returned after visiting Lahore, Karachi and Hyderabad Sind. Satya Pal said that the people of both the towns whom he met them during his visit felt indebted to Lala Lajpat Rai in recognition of his service to humanity and also for establishing Arya Samaj there, especially in the service of Earth Quake Disaster. Satya Pal opined that these steps taken by the Pakistan government will further generate goodwill and friendship among the people of both the countries.
Posted by: Peregrine Dec 31 2003, 04:39 AM KARACHI: One hundred and fifty Pakistan have been sent back on Tuesday to Pakistan from Libya through a special charter flight, Whom FIA Passport Seal forces had taken into custody, said a report. The Pakistanis, returning to Pakistan, were accused of to have managed to flee Italy from Libya via sea route. Their release and return to home could be possible by dint of UN’s aid programme More around seven hundred Pakistanis are behind the different bars of Libya, for whose release efforts at government level are underway, according to sources. All countries, especially the Islamic ones, regularly deport the Lotastaanis and Bhookhanangadeshis. India encourages these as illegal immigrants. When will Indian Leaders learn? Cheers.
Posted by: Ram Dec 31 2003, 11:14 PM
Friends, Did anyone watch uneven Cohen on C-SPAN this morning? I called in challenged him on his bogus claim that Pakis are "moderate Islamists" whatever that means. I asked him if that is so, how come they have an endless supply of terrorists who are willing to cross the treacherous LOC to blow themselves up in India en route to the 72 virgins? He ducked the main thrust of this question and instead stuck to his theme that Pakis are moderate bla bla. I guess what he was trying to say is that sure Pakis are jihadis, but they are 'our' jihadis. I also poked him on US hypocrisy, supporting Musharaff despite his unleashing the same Al Quaida like jihad scum on India. This one he didn't duck. He said yeah, all big powers , including India have to play the jugglery act to secure national interests. Finally, I told him that all this BS about Musa being an ataturk and wanting to modernize Pakis is just that: BS. Because at the end of the day, its the compulsive hatred and hostility towards India that drives Pakis, and the Paki elites' use of jihad scum is crucial in Paki posture towards India. And unless Pakis cleanse themselves of this hatred, there is no hope. To which uneven Cohen said, I agree and the solution is that India must open its borders, let more Pakis in and see for themselves yada yada. Balderdash. Daisy cutters on Mushy's head are the need of the hour, not India opening up its borders. Cheers
Posted by: Viren Dec 31 2003, 11:18 PM
Great job Ram.
I agree and the solution is that India must open its borders, let more Pakis in and see for themselves yada yada
Next time ask him to write to INS Commissoner to open US borders to all those jihadis - we'll see what he says. How can the guy even look at his face in the mirror every morning blink.gif Any idea if they will be showing that program on C-SPAN again? Missed it sad.gif
Posted by: Mudy Dec 31 2003, 11:24 PM
Sorry missed it, when is re-run. Did you noticed suddenely media and Uneven Cohen are again started saying Mushy is the only one? For last two months they toned down. Looks like they want Mushy boat for another few months.
Posted by: Viren Dec 31 2003, 11:27 PM
ABV proposes, Pukes disposes laugh.gif
Posted by: Viren Jan 1 2004, 01:01 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Dec 31 2003, 01:54 PM)
Sorry missed it, when is re-run.
Mudy: Am watching it on internet now... go to this link: Click on the first link (dated today) You'll need RealPlayer ( to view it.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 1 2004, 01:20 AM
Thanks Viren. His reply was very diplomatic and pro Paki and not anti India, he want to sell his new book in Pakistan. But one can feel he himself is not sure and couple of times contradicted himself. He is still towing Paki line your terrorists are my Freedom fighter even quoted Reagan (to give more credit to this logic). Confirmed that Paki nukes are not in US hand and they are still intact with Paki-Mullah Army. India is better than Pakistan in every aspect which he think Pakistanis should visit India and see themself not to believe what their govt tell them.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 1 2004, 02:19 AM
Ram, Your questions were excellent and he was forced to answer them., specool.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 1 2004, 03:52 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 1 2004, 01:20 AM)
India is better than Pakistan in every aspect which he think Pakistan should visit India and see themself not believe what their govt tell them.
Muddy : Regarding allowing Visa to every Lotastaani who wants to visit India as well as open Indian Educational Institutions to Loatastani Students : A. Visas : It is very difficult to allow Visas or Visa-less – Open Borders – Travel to the Lotastaanis as these Lotastaanis stay back in India as Illegal Immigrants. I did a Google search for finding out the status of Bhookhanangadeshi Illegal Immigrants in India and came across news Items about Lotastaanis not returning to their Islamic Pure Country but stay on in India Illegally. It is not possible for India to take on additional people when India cannot provide the Health and Education Facilities to all its own citizens. Thus having Open Borders with Lotastaan is out of question. In addition we have the Terrorist Lotastaani ISI groups who would definitely enter India under false pretences. B. Lotastaani students to get education in Indian Schools, Colleges and Universities : As it is India cannot provide sufficient seats in it Educational Institutions for its own students and a such you find Indians – Medical, Engineering etc. – going to not only for Higher Education in English speaking Countries like UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. but also countries like Russia, Ukraine and other Non-English speaking countries. With this situation prevailing how can India afford to bring in the Lotastaani students who have been brainwashed over the last thirty years or so with the distorted fundamental hatred filled School Curricula as evidenced by the Articles in the Jung by Dr. Farrukh Sallem? These Lotastaani Students are not going to forget 15/20 Years of Hate Filled Brainwashing against India especially in the Hindus and as such might lead to a catastrophic result. Thus I would like the entry of Lotastaanis to India to be kept to a minimum. If anybody wants links to the articles about Lotastaanis Visitors to India not returning to Lotastaan please let me know and I shall post them. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 1 2004, 03:57 AM
Please post link. Another pointer from Cohen, Mushy may not shed his Khaki even after 2004 Dec.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 1 2004, 05:43 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 1 2004, 03:57 AM)
Please post link.
Mudy : Aap Ki Seva Mein Prastoot Hai : Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 1 2004, 05:53 AM NEW DELHI: India on Wednesday proposed expanding transport and diplomatic links with Pakistan in a new confidence-building measure between the neighbours whose leaders will take part in a regional summit next week. India asked Pakistan to hold talks on starting two new bus services between the countries, including in the disputed region of Kashmir. But India said it wanted the talks to take place after the seven-nation summit in Pakistan to be held from January 4 to 6. "It is part of the step-by-step, ongoing process of increasing people-to-people contacts and these technical level meetings have been programmed to take place in the week of January 12 and 19," Foreign Ministry spokesman Navtej Sarna told AFP. The proposed bus services would run between Muzaffarabad and Srinagar and between Munabao in the Indian state of Rajasthan and Khokhrapar in Sindh. The only current bus service between the two countries runs between New Delhi and Lahore. Sarna in a statement said India also wanted a removal of restrictions on the movement of each other’s diplomats and to increase the size of each other’s embassies from 55 to 75 staff members. India and Pakistan kept 110-strong staffs at diplomatic missions in their respective capitals before December 2001 attack on the Indian parliament. The rival countries are due on Thursday to resume flights that were halted after the parliament attack. Trains are due to restart on January 15. Why is India so anxious to increase the number of Lotastaanis visiting India? Does India want to provide the Lotastaani Terrorists and the ISI more facilities to enter India to carry out their Destructive Activities? Here is the Reason : ISLAMABAD: The suicide bombers who tried last week to kill President Pervez Musharraf belonged to the Jaish-e-Muhammad, three intelligence officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday. The officials, all intimately involved in the investigation, said that the bombers were part of the Jaish. One of the attackers was from Azad Kashmir. The identity of the other attacker is yet to be announced, although Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed has said that he was a foreigner. "We have confirmed that one suicide bomber was a member of Jaish-e-Muhammad," said an intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The other man appeared to be an Afghan who was also involved in the group, and both men had undergone terrorist training in Afghanistan, he said. Abdul Rauf Chaudhry, a spokesman for the Interior Ministry told The AP that authorities had detained dozens of suspects, but he would not comment on whether the Jaish was involved in the attack. A spokesman for Jaish, Sahrai Baba denied any involvement in a phone conversation. "We do not like Musharraf, but we did not try to kill him," he said. With the easing of travel restrictions now Jaish will find it easier to blow up ABV and the other Indian Dignitaries. furious.gif God Help India Cheers
Posted by: acharya Jan 1 2004, 07:03 AM
QUOTE (Ram @ Dec 31 2003, 05:44 AM)
Friends, Did anyone watch uneven Cohen on C-SPAN this morning? I called in challenged him on his bogus claim that Pakis are "moderate Islamists" whatever that means. I asked him if that is so, how come they have an endless supply of terrorists who are willing to cross the treacherous LOC to blow themselves up in India en route to the 72 virgins? He ducked the main thrust of this question and instead stuck to his theme that Pakis are moderate bla bla. I guess what he was trying to say is that sure Pakis are jihadis, but they are 'our' jihadis. I also poked him on US hypocrisy, supporting Musharaff despite his unleashing the same Al Quaida like jihad scum on India. This one he didn't duck. He said yeah, all big powers , including India have to play the jugglery act to secure national interests. Finally, I told him that all this BS about Musa being an ataturk and wanting to modernize Pakis is just that: BS. Because at the end of the day, its the compulsive hatred and hostility towards India that drives Pakis, and the Paki elites' use of jihad scum is crucial in Paki posture towards India. And unless Pakis cleanse themselves of this hatred, there is no hope. To which uneven Cohen said, I agree and the solution is that India must open its borders, let more Pakis in and see for themselves yada yada. Balderdash. Daisy cutters on Mushy's head are the need of the hour, not India opening up its borders. Cheers
Ram, I heard you and you were good. SPC took it from the last question. He said that TSP is not really a jehadi country to your question but for a earlier question he said that Pakistan needs to reduce hatred towards India and others.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 1 2004, 08:00 PM
Those who expect India to benefit from Trade with Lotastaan should be aware of the fact that there isn’t much that India can export to Lotastaan as the Chinese are dominating Lotastaan’s requirements There have been more than Twenty Articles in the Lotastaani News Media in the Second Half of 2003 about China wiping the floor with Lotastaani consumer goods and similar Industries. Cheers
Posted by: vishal Jan 2 2004, 12:40 AM
how do i record or save that real video/audio stream??? i am talking about that Ram's link.I can play it.It plays fine on my real player 8 but i can't save it...there is no option there!...plz tell me is there any software to save it or capture it? thanks. smile.gif
Posted by: muddur Jan 2 2004, 03:42 AM
Jaish leader missing after attacks PTI[ THURSDAY, JANUARY 01, 2004 12:13:20 AM ] ISLAMABAD: Some activists of the banned militant outfit Jaish-e-Muhammad have been arrested in connection with the December 25 attack on Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and police were looking for its deputy chief who has been missing. Jaish deputy chief Mufti Abdul Rauf came from Bahawalpur town in Punjab to Islamabad before the attack and has been missing, media reports said on Wednesday, adding some members of the outfit have been arrested. Police began looking for Rauf after identifying one of the suicide bombers Mohammad Jamil, a resident of PoK, from his severed head recovered at the attack site, The Nation said quoting officials of the Interior Ministry. Jaish Chief Maulana Masood Azhar has been hiding ever since his new organisation Khudamul Islam was banned, the paper said. Jaish was already banned by Musharraf last year. The paper also quoted Maulana Omair Naqshabandi, a Jaish leader, as denying the involvement of the outfit in attack on Musharraf. He also denied reports that Azhar was in the custody of Pakistani security agencies. Intrestingly, Musharraf has been facing flak for providing support to terrorists and according to a recent report even the US is wary of his "double standards" in dealing with the militants.
Posted by: muddur Jan 2 2004, 03:44 AM ISLAMABAD : Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has endorsed the 17th Constitution Amendment Bill, legalising a controversial order by him that had met with yearlong resistance from opposition parties, Online news agency reports. Musharraf now has the authority to dismiss an elected government. He will stay in power until late 2007 and will continue as military chief till the end of 2004. The bill, after being approved by both houses of parliament, was moved for endorsement by the president on Tuesday to make it part of the constitution. With this, several controversial amendments made by Musharraf through the Legal Framework Order in 2002, bestowing unprecedented powers on him, have now become law. Opposition parties, led by the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal, had resisted the LFO for over a year since democracy was restored in Pakistan last year. But the MMA finally struck a deal on the LFO after forcing the government to accept some of its demands. With the approval of the 17th amendment by parliament and its subsequent endorsement by Muhsharraf, as many as five judges, including the Chief Justice of Supreme Court Riaz Ahmad Sheikh, stand to lose their offices. In the 17th amendment package, extensions in the tenure of the judges had been revoked. Sheikh will retire with retrospective effect from March 8, 2003, while Justice Munir A. Shiekh will retire from July 1, 2003, and Justice Qazi Muhammad Farooq on January 5, 2004. Justice Dedar Hussain Shah's tenure would come to an end on January 10 next year while Justice Tanveer Khan's term in office would be completed on January 16 next year.
Posted by: Viren Jan 2 2004, 10:14 AM
Yeh lo bhaiyon.. If Mush insists on a casual drive around his swamp, hope our PM respectfully declines. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 2 2004, 10:18 AM Musharraf will fall first, Osama will be captured: US columnist Thursday January 1 2004 16:23 IST ANI WASHINGTON: A leading American columnist has predicted that Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf will be double-crossed and may be the first of many world leaders to fall in the New Year. Writing his last column for 2003 in the New York Times, columnist William Safire warns that Pakistan Islamist-centric military will be behind Musharraf's eviction. He also has predicted that Saudi terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden will be captured in Yemen. He also goes on to say that the next tyranny to feel the force of US "liberation" will be either North Korea or Iran or Syria or Venezuela, adding that Iraq would either split in three or suffer a Sunni coup or defeat the insurgents and emerge as a rudimentary democracy. The Daily Times further quotes Safire as saying that, Anthony Minghella's Cold Mountain, Edward Zwick's The Last Samurai, Clint Eastwood's Mystic River, Sofia Coppola's Lost in Translation or Gary Ross's Seabiscuit, could win the Oscar for the Best Picture. The October 2004 "surprise" affecting the U.S. presidential election will probably witness the daring escape of Saddam Hussein, a major terror attack in the U.S. and the discovery of a buried bag of anthrax in Tikrit. Former NATO commander General Wesley Clark could become the Democratic Party's vice-presidential candidate, while the next Secretary of State will be either Richard Holbrooke, Paul Bremer, Donald Rumsfeld or John Kerry. This also means that Bush will win the 2004 election
Posted by: Mudy Jan 2 2004, 10:20 AM
Viren, Protocol demands meeting, hand shake etc, Whole world knows Gola is big time liar. ABV anytime can say my hearing aid was not working or go back to sleep. biggrin.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 2 2004, 10:56 AM
yuck! He is worse than any Sun n Shade astrologer. Well so it means Bush will lose election.
Posted by: Viren Jan 2 2004, 10:56 AM
Writing his last column for 2003 in the New York Times, columnist William Safire warns that ...
Here's Safire's column from NY Times. Subscription (free) site - hence posting in full: I found the thing about Saddam's daring escape in Oct a bit too far fetched - see question #13. So decided to check NY Times site for Safire's original column. Check it out...the guy who wrote the ANI column did a hatchet job on Safire. Answers in bold.
In last year's office pool, for the second year running, I accurately predicted the best-picture Oscar winner. Forget all of the other predictions, which were varying degrees of mistaken; I shoulda been a film critic. The multiple choices include one, all or none. My picks are down below. Do not save this page. 1. Next tyranny to feel the force of U.S. liberation: {a} North Korea; {b} Iran; {c} Syria; {d} Venezuela. (none) 2. Iraq will {a} split up, like all Gaul, into three parts; {b} defeat the insurgents and emerge a rudimentary democracy; {c} succumb to a Sunni coup. 3. First to fall from power will be {a} Little China's Chen Shui-bian, whose two-China campaign oratory on Taiwan is asking for trouble with Big China; {b} Pakistan's Musharraf, double-crossed by his Islamist military;{c} the U.S.'s Bush, after abandoning fiscal restraint; {d} Russia's Putin as his electorate miraculously awakens; (e) Cuba's Castro. 4. Long-overdue exoneration will come to embattled media megastar {a} Martha Stewart; {b} Michael Jackson; {c} Kenneth Lay; {d} Pete Rose. 5. The economy will {a} see a booming 13,000 Dow and 3,000 Nasdaq; {b} grow more slowly as a weakening dollar drives up interest rates; {c} be rocked by the abuse of manipulative derivatives in hedge funds. 6. The fiction best seller will be {a} "Retribution" by Jilliane Hoffman; {b} "Confessions of a Bigamist" by Kate Lehrer; {c} "Flying Crows" by Jim Lehrer (presumably one of Kate's husbands). 7. The nonfiction sleeper will be {a} "Inside — A Public and Private Life" by Joseph Califano Jr.; {b} Carl Zimmer's brainy "Soul Made Flesh"; {c} Michael Korda's biography of U. S. Grant; {d} Gertrude Himmelfarb's "The Roads to Modernity." 8. The scientific advance of the year will be {a} age retardation enhanced by memory protection; {b} a single pill combining erectile dysfunction treatment with a fast-acting aphrodisiac; {c} neuroscientists' creation of a unified field theory of the brain; {d} the awakening of geneticists to the liberating study of bioethics. 9. Best-Picture Oscar: {a} Anthony Minghella's "Cold Mountain"; {b} Edward Zwick's "The Last Samurai"; {c} Clint Eastwood's "Mystic River"; {d} Sofia Coppola's "Lost in Translation"; (e) Gary Ross's "Seabiscuit." (This is the category I'm good at.) 10. Bush's domestic initiative will be {a} Social Security personal accounts; {b} community college scholarships; {c} a moon colony; {d} snowmobile restrictions in Florida parks. 11. The U.S. Supreme Court {a} will decide that the rights of alien detainees in Guantánamo have not been violated; {b} will deadlock, 4-4 (Scalia recused), in the Pledge of Allegiance case, thereby temporarily affirming the Ninth Circuit decision declaring "under God" in the pledge unconstitutional; {c} in Tennessee v. Lane will uphold a state's immunity to lawsuits, limiting federal power in the Americans with Disabilities Act. 12. Howard Dean will {a} sweep Iowa and New Hampshire and breeze to a boring nomination; {b} lose to Gephardt in Iowa and do worse than expected in N.H., leading to a long race; {c} transform himself into the centrist, affable "new Dean"; {d} angrily bolt and form a third party if the nomination is denied him. 13. The "October surprise" affecting our election will be {a} the capture of bin Laden in Yemen; {b} the daring escape of Saddam; {c} a major terror attack in the U.S.; {d} finding a buried bag of anthrax in Tikrit. 14. Debating Cheney on TV will be the Democratic running mate {a} Wes Clark; {b} Bob Graham; {c} Bill Richardson; {d} Dianne Feinstein; (e) John Edwards; (f) Carl Levin. 15. The next secretary of state will be {a} Richard Holbrooke; {b} Paul Bremer; {c} Donald Rumsfeld; {d} John Kerry. 16. Israel, staunchly supported during the U.S. election year, will {a} build its security barrier including the Ariel salient and the Jordan Valley; {b} undermine Arafat by negotiating territory with Syria after Assad quiets Hezbollah in occupied Lebanon; {c} close down illegal outposts before "redeploying" settlers out of Gaza. My picks: 1. (none), 2. {b}, 3. (e) (I've made this yearly prediction for three decades and now is not the time to stop), 4. {a}, 5. (all), 6. {b}, 7. {a}, 8. {d}, 9. {c} (Make my day, Clint!), 10. {b}, 11. (all), 12. {b}, 13. {c}, 14. {b}, 15. {b} 16. (all). This last one is pure, unsourced thumb-sucking; Sharon didn't return my call.
Posted by: Viren Jan 2 2004, 10:59 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 2 2004, 01:26 AM)
yuck! He is worse than any Sun n Shade astrologer. Well so it means Bush will lose election.
Mudy: Deleted my older post...the guy at ANI screwed up IMHO biggrin.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 2 2004, 02:27 PM,1,5159310.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are coddling fundamentalist fanatics To judge by Libya's promise to give up its weapons of mass destruction, President Bush's get-tough approach in Iraq and Afghanistan has impressed our enemies. But what about our ostensible allies? Pakistan and Saudi Arabia profess to be cooperating in the war on terror, yet they have done a lot more than Libya to spread terrorism and weapons of mass murder around the world. And, unlike Moammar Kadafi, they have no reason to fear a visit from the 3rd Infantry Division if they don't mend their ways. After all, the United States doesn't invade its "friends," right? But with friends like these…. Both the Washington Post and the New York Times have published investigative articles showing that Pakistan was probably a prime supplier of nuclear technology to Iran. This is quite plausible given the well-documented links between Pakistan and another member of the "axis of evil" — North Korea. Last year, U.S. spy satellites photographed a Pakistani cargo plane in North Korea loading missile parts. There is widespread suspicion that, in return for this technology, Pakistan shared nuclear know-how with Pyongyang. Meanwhile, parts of the Pakistani government continue to aid the Taliban insurgency against the U.S.-backed government of Afghanistan. Supposedly outlawed extremist groups like Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Taiba are allowed to openly raise money and spread incendiary propaganda. Saudi Arabia is equally complicit in helping our enemies. The Saudi government spends billions of dollars supporting madrasas, or Koranic schools, and mosques around the world that preach a virulently anti-American strain of Islam. These institutions churn out jihadists faster than Delta Force can hunt them down, not only in Saudi Arabia but also in places like Pakistan. Abd al Aziz bin Issa, a leading Al Qaeda member, recently called Saudi Arabia "the primary source of funds for most jihad movements." Despite the Saudi establishment's expensive advertising campaigns to win the goodwill of the United States, the contempt in which it holds this country is evident. Princess Reem al Faisal, a granddaughter of the late King Faisal, was quoted in October as accusing the U.S. of committing "atrocities" that rank among "the worst in human history" — the latest being the occupation of Iraq. MEMRI, an invaluable website that translates Arabic publications, is replete with similar sentiments from other prominent Saudis. Many of their comments are aimed at exposing the supposed nexus between "Zionists" and "Crusaders." Umayma Ahmad Jalahma, a professor of Islamic studies at the state-run King Faisal University, last year repeated the old libel that for Purim "the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries." This year, for an encore, Jalahma claimed that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was timed for Purim. The superficially reassuring thing about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan is that the leaders of both countries, Crown Prince Abdullah and President Pervez Musharraf, have disassociated themselves from such extremist rhetoric. Both claim to be allies in the war on terror — and to some extent they have delivered by detaining some suspects and closing some bank accounts. But neither one has done nearly enough to crack down on the extremists who have penetrated their own governments. In Pakistan, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, and to a lesser extent the army, is riddled with hard-liners who support jihadist terrorists in Afghanistan and Kashmir. These radical Islamists may have been behind the recent attempts to assassinate Musharraf. In Saudi Arabia, Abdullah has to compete for influence with his half-brother, Prince Nayif ibn Abdulaziz, who runs the powerful Interior Ministry. Nayif has claimed that the 9/11 attacks could not have been committed by Saudis; they had to be the work of Israelis. After terrorist bombings that rocked Riyadh this year, Nayif cracked down on Al Qaeda cells and some of the mullahs who supported them. But, as Princeton professor Michael Doran argues in the new issue of Foreign Affairs, there are sharp limits to how far he will go in challenging the Wahhabi clerical establishment. To Nayif and others of his ilk, the biggest threat comes not from fundamentalist fanatics but from liberal reformers. The remarkable thing is that a U.S. president who prides himself on moral clarity has been willing to accept such equivocation for so long. No doubt George W. Bush fears that if the U.S. presses either regime too hard, the unintentional result may be to bring Osama bin Laden's acolytes to power. Both Musharraf and Abdullah need the U.S. at least as much as we need them. Neither one can stay in power — or, most likely, stay alive — if the radical Islamists prevail. In the long term, we do them no favors by allowing them to coddle our mutual enemies. Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Jan 2 2004, 06:18 PM,,SB107300266639911800,00.html?mod=opinion%5Fasia%5Fcommentaries THE WALL STREET JOURNAL ONLINE, JANUARY 2, 2004 COMMENTARY Pakistan PlaysNuclear Footsie; Does Anyone Care? By *GOPALASWAMI PARTHASARATHY* Writing his memoirs in his prison cell just before he was executed by General Zia-ul-Haq in 1979, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto stated that his aim as prime minister of Pakistan had been to put the "Islamic Civilization" at par with the "Christian, Jewish and Hindu Civilizations," by giving the Islamic world a "full nuclear capability." In a meeting of top scientists and advisers that he had convened on Jan. 20, 1972, just after assuming office, Bhutto made it clear that he was determined to achieve nuclear capability, not merely to neutralize India's inherent conventional superiority, but also to make his country a leader of the Islamic world. But how was a cash-strapped Pakistan to get the financial resources to achieve these objectives? Bhutto's press adviser, Khalid Hasan, has since revealed how Bhutto sought and obtained financial assistance from Saudi Arabia and the mercurial Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to fulfill his ambitions. Bhutto also indicated in his prison memoirs that China under Mao's leadership had agreed to provide Pakistan the necessary assistance to build the bomb. Despite changes in leadership in China, there has been no dilution of its nuclear and missile assistance to Pakistan. While successive rulers in Pakistan have vowed that they would not transfer nuclear technology to others, the IAEA has come up with evidence indicating that both Libya and Iran received assistance in developing uranium enrichment capabilities from Pakistan. Col. Gadhafi had such a close relationship with Bhutto that the latter named the largest cricket stadium in Pakistan the "Gadhafi Stadium." Funds from Libya flowed freely to Pakistan "in suitcases," to fuel its nuclear ambitions. What is even more interesting is that the transfer of nuclear technology to Iran is said to have commenced in 1987, when Pakistan was professing to be a close U.S. ally. Pakistan was then under the rule of Gen. Zia. The entire nuclear program was then, as it is now, under the direct control of the Pakistan army. There is no way that there could have been any "rogue operation" by individual scientists to transfer nuclear technology to Iran, without the knowledge and consent of the Pakistan army. While Iran and Libya have agreed to comprehensive IAEA inspections of their nuclear facilities under international pressure, there has been little or no attention paid to the nexus between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on nuclear issues. Apart from the revelations of Khalid Hassan about Saudi funding of the Pakistan nuclear program, Mohammed al Khilawi, the senior Saudi diplomat who defected to the U.S. in 1994, has also given details about how Riyadh bankrolled Pakistan and then Iraq to obtain nuclear weapons capabilities. More recently, eyebrows were raised when the Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan was provided unprecedented access to Pakistan's nuclear enrichment facilities in Kahuta in March 1999. During this visit he invited Dr. A.Q. Khan, the "Father of the Islamic Bomb" to visit Saudi Arabia. Dr. Khan had paid over a dozen visits to North Korea and was instrumental in the transfer of enrichment technology to North Korea in exchange for North Korean missiles. Weapons inspectors in Iraq have traced Iraqi documents showing that Dr. Khan had offered nuclear technology to the Saddam Hussein regime. Dr. Khan's associates, Sultan Bashiruddin Mehmood and Abdul Majid visited Kandahar for a quiet pow-wow on nuclear technology with Osama bin Laden. And more recently, Dr. Khan has been questioned for his involvement in the transfer of enrichment capabilities to Iran. He obviously did not visit Saudi Arabia at the personal invitation of its defense minister to discuss Islamic theology! While Saudi Arabia actively uses "charities" to promote Wahhabi extremism across the world, Pakistan has been the recipient of huge direct economic assistance from the desert kingdom. The Saudis have bailed out Islamabad over the past decade by supplying Pakistan with an estimated $ 1.2 billion of oil products annually, virtually free of cost. Just after the visit of Dr. Khan to Saudi Arabia in November 1999, a Saudi nuclear expert, Dr. Al Arfaj, stated at a seminar that "Saudi Arabia must make plans aimed at making a quick response to face the possibilities of nuclear warfare agents being used against the Saudi population, cities or armed forces." After the departure of American forces from its soil, how does Saudi Arabia propose to deal with such nuclear contingencies? The 2,700-kilometer range CSS-2 missiles that Saudi Arabia obtained from China in 1987 are useless if fitted only with conventional warheads. One cannot, therefore, avoid the inference that like the Pakistan-North Korean nukes for missiles deal, there is an "oil for nukes" deal between the Saudis and Pakistanis. Washington's response to these developments has been strange. When Mr. Al Khilawi made his revelations about Saudi nuclear ambitions in 1994, a senior official in the Clinton White House remarked: "Can you imagine what would happen if we discovered Saudi had a bomb? We would have to do something and nobody wants that. Best not to ask tough questions in the first place." We are now told that Colin Powell is fully satisfied with General Pervez Musharraf's assurances that the nuclear transfers to North Korea and Iran were done by individual scientists, before he assumed office. If this is indeed true then what is one to make of reports that during a visit of a three-member team of its scientists to Pyongyang in 2001, Pakistan shared data of its nuclear tests with the North Koreans? In July 2002, U.S. satellites took pictures of C-130 aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force picking up missile components from North Korea. Around the same time, a Pakistani "Shaheen Airlines" aircraft is reported to have transported 47 tons of special aluminum acquired from the U.K. by the Kahuta Research Laboratories established by Dr. Khan, to Pyongyang for its enrichment program. The Clinton administration sought to appease China by pretending that it could not make a "determination" about that country's missile and nuclear transfers to Pakistan. The Bush administration would be ill advised to follow this example. /*Mr. Parthasarathy, a visiting professor at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi, is a former Indian ambassador to Pakistan.*/ /Updated January 2, 2004/
Posted by: vishal Jan 3 2004, 12:04 AM
OK, see what astrologers have to say about world affairs.I am hopefull about it. Bejan daruwalla says, 1)There will no more war between india and pak in future.Short skirmishes possible but not war. 2)India will be a near superpower in 2011. 3)Between 2047-2050 there will be one single government in the world. 4)year 2091 will be the pinnacle of the human history.Science will reveal mystery behind GOD! blink.gif Now,i am excited about this 4th point. biggrin.gif Actually i think one day scientists will realise that whatever said in VEDAS is true.They will realise it scientifically.So, i agree with what Bejan ji said. smile.gif
Posted by: Mudy Jan 3 2004, 12:12 AM
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto stated that his aim as prime minister of Pakistan had been to put the "Islamic Civilization" at par with the "Christian, Jewish and Hindu Civilizations," by giving the Islamic world a "full nuclear capability.
Bhutto own mother was Hindu. Does he showed same anger and hatered towards her also? devilsmiley.gif
Posted by: Viren Jan 3 2004, 12:19 AM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 1 2004, 10:30 AM)
Those who expect India to benefit from Trade with Lotastaan should be aware of the fact that there isn’t much that India can export to Lotastaan as the Chinese are dominating Lotastaan’s requirements
Peregrine/anyone else, Is there a list/figures of what TSP exports (other than terrorists or drugs) to other nations? What products/service do they have that India will have a market for?
Posted by: Viren Jan 3 2004, 03:53 AM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 2 2004, 12:50 AM)
ABV anytime can say my hearing aid was not working or go back to sleep. biggrin.gif
Mudy: Looks like your message reached ABV biggrin.gif wink.gif
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 3 2004, 05:44 AM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 3 2004, 12:19 AM)
Is there a list/figures of what TSP exports (other than terrorists or drugs) to other nations? What products/service do they have that India will have a market for?
Viren : The best place to find Indo-Pakistani Trade might be one the Indo-Lota Chambers of Commerce. Here is a general Import-Export Guide : China is already wiping the floor with Pakistani Manufacturing especially in the case of consumer goods. The following is a précis of the large amount of articles in the Lotastaani Press with respect to the devastating effect Imports from China are having on the Lotastaani Industry :
China captures over 50 per cent of local market during 2003 Crockery, leather, shoes, glass, readymade garments, electronic gadgets, plastic, tiles, medicines, food stuff and a lot many more. The shops are flooded with such fake items but no one is there to check the originality of the leading TV brands, as claimed by the sellers. The market is also flooded with such substandard CDs, DVDs, and a lot more other electronic gadgets.
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 3 2004, 07:43 AM
Viren : Latest wailing from Lotastaanis about Imports from China : pakee.gif AFTER toymakers, shoe manufacturers are feeling the pinch from competition from China. The latest protest was voiced by PIAF, one of the groupings active in the Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry, and stressed the anomaly of prescribing similar customs rates for raw material and finished goods. PIAF also noted with surprise that the finished Chinese products are imported at half the price of the raw material, which was a clear sign of dumping. This is an issue which has to be taken up by the government within the WTO framework, but the Pakistani entrepreneur must also look at his own options. India is facing much the same problem, of a flood of Chinese consumer goods of better quality and at much cheaper rates wiping out its own industries. Indian entrepreneurs are now carrying the ‘fight’ to China, and seeking investment and joint venture opportunities there, instead of just throwing up their hands and asking for government protection, or packing up their production units and turning to trading. Pakistani entrepreneurs have become alive to the need for producing quality and keeping costs low, but too many are still exponents of the SRO culture which seeks quick profits through unfair advantage. However, there is another issue which the government alone can tackle, and that is counterfeiting. In a left-handed compliment, Pakistani manufacturers of such items as ballpoint pens and shoes have found Chinese counterfeits of their products being marketed here. The government must take up this issue with due urgency. Cheers
Posted by: Mudy Jan 3 2004, 08:28 AM
Soft Borders with Pakistan: A Certain Suicide By: Moorthy Muthuswamy PhD Introduction There has been a recent and unrealistic euphoria over the possibility of a sudden dissolution of historical hatred in South Asia, with India possibly opening its arms and borders to embrace the failed state of Pakistan that has been trying its level best to destroy India. Until now there exist no serious analysis that discusses the potential outcome of this move – whether it would be a win-win situation for all countries or it would lead to Islamic extremism moving beyond Pakistan and further consolidate and destroy India through soft borders. My analysis outlined here indicates that soft borders with Pakistan would be suicidal for India and for the rest of South Asia. I discuss an alternate vision of achieving peace and prosperity in South Asia. The EU Model is Inappropriate Those who profess “statesmanship” or “vision” suggest a European Union (EU) type arrangement in South Asia. Few suggestions could be more inappropriate! Almost all countries in the EU have a Christian majority and they all strive toward progress, not jihad. Now, for over ten years, the EU has declined Turkey’s application for membership. Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim majority nation with a large and growing population. A letter of mine published in the Washington Times on Dec. 18, 2002 tells us the EU’s concerns: Why the EU does not want Turkey In their column "Road map to a Western Turkey" (Commentary, yesterday), John C. Hulsman and Brett D. Schaefer have glossed over an important concern many Europeans have about Turkey's inclusion in the European Union: namely, giving Turkey's Muslim population easier access to settling in Europe. European Muslims, including second-generation ones, have difficulty assimilating and are among the largest recipients of welfare. They also have high crime rates and poor education levels. While the native white population in the European Union is barely reproducing itself, European Muslims have among the highest birth rates. If Turkey were admitted to the union, Europe's Muslims could jump from about 4 percent to 20 percent of the population. Furthermore, there is the obvious issue of pan-Islamic extremism sweeping the world, including Europe, with the burgeoning of the immigrant Muslim population. It also must be acknowledged that, given its deep Islamic roots, Turkey is at best an experiment in democracy and modern development. Its admission into the European Union could portend the devastation of Western Europe through a massive influx of Muslims who have little in common with Europeans. To this day Pakistan continues to be the primary incubator of worldwide terrorism, with many generations of its people passionate about waging jihad. It is a far more Muslim extremist nation than Turkey. Even if the military establishment in Pakistan is willing to embrace India, the Islamic religious power structure in Pakistan is committed to Islamizing South Asia by nook or crook. The Muslim clerics wield enormous influence across the spectrum of the Pakistani society. The clerical outlook towards India continues to be hostile and belligerent. These beliefs are rooted in ancient religious teachings, -- not subject to negotiation or rational discussion. If some people think that soft borders and closer, people-to-people interaction with India will lead to a reformed Pakistan, how come India’ own Muslim population, living day in and day out in a secular and democratic nation has not merged into the mainstream but is also increasingly getting jihadized ( Conclusion: Already reeling under an escalating Islamic fundamentalism, soft borders with Pakistan will speedup the irreversible destruction of India. Reforming Pakistan If India and other nations want to see a moderate and reformed Pakistan that focuses on nation-building rather than jihad, they must first identify why Pakistan got itself into this mess in the first place. A letter of mine published in the Washington Times on Nov. 22, 2002 explains why: Pakistan's undemocratic underpinnings The conclusions found in "Studies say elites spurred to terror" (Business, Wednesday) are incomplete. The question should be, what causes political repression? Pakistan and India were created from 1947 British-ruled India. When the British left, both of these nations inherited democracy. Hindu-majority India has remained secular and democratic, but Muslim-majority Pakistan couldn't sustain democracy and is now a dictatorship. Pakistan also has become a dominant source and sponsor of Islamic terrorism. Pakistan couldn't sustain democracy because the retrogressive political indoctrination taught in its mosques does not allow the separation of church and state. This has led to political repression amid a flowering of Islamic fundamentalism. This conclusion tells us that if the United States wants to make any Islamic state a model nation for democracy, it must first address the issue of the hateful and retrogressive preaching in its mosques. This observation, in combination with the plight of Muslims in India and even in developed European countries, and extremism among wealthy, educated Muslim Arabs make us come to the following inevitable conclusion: Islamic ideology is solely responsible for the plight of Muslims and Muslim majority nations. Islam’s shortcomings must be addressed first before Muslims are given free reign to move about. Otherwise, freedom to travel will be exploited by Pakistani extremists who dominate Islam in Pakistan to wage jihad on infidels such as Hindus. With regard to reforming Islam, it is notable, even within secular, multiethnic and democratic India there exist no reformed version of Islam ( We now reach an even more significant conclusion: To expect reformed Pakistan or even expect Indian Muslims to move away from extremism on their own is unrealistic for a foreseeable future. An Alternate Vision One should view Pakistan and even sections of Indian population as being inflicted with a social disease called Islamic extremism. The right approach here is to quarantine India with respect to Pakistan - the worldwide sponsor of this infection, and eradicate the disease within India and then work to eradicate it in Pakistan and Bangladesh. This should be a win-win situation. However, the act of opening India to Pakistan will lead to this disease further consolidating and expanding into India and eventually destroy it, -- just like the way it is destroying Pakistan and Bangladesh. In the mean time India should focus on wealth creation through continued economic reforms, improved stability, and investment ( Decisions can Wait Many well-educated and capable visionaries leading Indian corporations in the areas such as software and pharmaceutical industries have enabled their companies to compete successfully with companies based in developed nations. However, this level of competence is yet to permeate the ruling class and the media, which appear to be still rooted in the “developing” world category. India will get a leader at some point in near future that reflects this new emerging nation. Such a person should be capable of making world-class decisions. A reminder: China saw a phenomenal growth under President Jiang Zamin -- trained as an engineer. While not discounting the current leadership, which has performed admirably in many ways, I think among the best decisions it can make is to groom the next generation leaders of India and not rush into any major decision vis-à-vis Pakistan at this point. With India finally taking off, risky decisions that could undermine its future must be avoided. It is high time the industry leaders of the emerging India also realize and work toward electing the future generation leaders who can aid wealth creation, promote India’s interests confidently, and make it secure. (The views expressed here are author’s own. The writer is a nuclear physicist based in America. He is also a director of Indian American Intellectuals Forum, a New York-based non-profit organization. His contact address:
Posted by: Viren Jan 3 2004, 12:09 PM
QUOTE (Peregrine @ Jan 2 2004, 08:14 PM)
Viren : The best place to find Indo-Pakistani Trade might be one the Indo-Lota Chambers of Commerce.
Peregrine: Thanks for those links. I really can't see as to how India will benefit from trade ties with TSP. TSP gets access to the largest middle class consumer market in the world if trade barriers to India are lifted. And we know Pakis will be Pakis and will cut their nose to spite their face - i.e., order shoddy stuff from their chink-com buddies rather than pass any business our way. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif At best we can hope for some positive Indian pys-ops reaching the average Abdul on the street circumventing all those jihadi preachings and teachings and we know it'll take couple generations before it bears meaninful results for India.
Posted by: Mudy Jan 3 2004, 12:33 PM
Why you are worried about trade etc. Pakistan will never change "Kutaye ki puanch kbhi sidhi nahi hotey". Paki army want to survive. They will start same game again, they are churning out Madarasa graduated.gif on daily basis. Same funny and sad story will start again. This is popcorn time till SAARC. I am not worried. graduated.gif
Posted by: Krishna Jan 3 2004, 12:54 PM
[Admin: Deleted duplicate]Recieved in an e-mail, so no links!
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 3 2004, 05:01 PM
QUOTE (Viren @ Jan 3 2004, 12:09 PM)
I really can't see as to how India will benefit from trade ties with TSP. TSP gets access to the largest middle class consumer market in the world if trade barriers to India are lifted. And we know Pakis will be Pakis and will cut their nose to spite their face - i.e., order shoddy stuff from their chink-com buddies rather than pass any business our way. thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif
Totally Correct. The Lotastaanis have already seen most parts of their consumer Industry wiped out by the Chinese. Despite over Twenty Articles in the Lotastaani Press the Pakistani Government cannot say even “Boo” to the Chineses as China is Lotastaan’s “Underwear Friend” who is needed by Lotastaan to give India a “Mouth Breaking” Response. So India stands to gain nothing but is in Danger to Lose a Lot in normalizing relations with India. What we need is a “Conflict Free” Relationship not Open Borders whereby Millions of Lotastaanis will shift their Residence to India, Single Currency whereby India takes over the Lotastaani Foreign Debt of USD 35 Billion and open India to another Partition in the next Decade or so. India gave Lotastaan Most Favoured Nation Status over a Decade Ago. Pakistan is still not considering giving India MFN Status, but, might do so if India grants furthr concessions to Lotastaan.
At best we can hope for some positive Indian pys-ops reaching the average Abdul on the street circumventing all those jihadi preachings and teachings and we know it'll take couple generations before it bears meaninful results for India.
The best way is for the Average Lotastaani Abdul the Bul-Bul to read about India’s Progress versus Lotastaan’s Backwardness as conveyed to them by the Indian Visitors and also a reasonable number of Loatstaanis visiting India Annually. In this respect India must check the Bon Fides of every Lotastanni Visa Applicant also the Bona fides of their Relatives in India as it seems a lot of Lotastaani visit India without having any Relatives in India and the Illegally Settle Down in India. As such India must create a mechanism whereby all Lotastaani and Bhookhanangadeshi Visitors to India return to their Hell Holes prior to the expiry of their Six-Month period per their Visa. No extensions should be granted. In addition all Lotastaanis or Bhookhanangadeshis partaking Indian Education Facilities should pay the Corresponding Tuition Fees - like in the UK where Engineering and Medical Students from Foreign Countries have to pay anywhere from £15,000 to 20,000 as Annual Tuition Fees, of course an addition £ 7,500 to 10,000 Annually is required for Living Expenses i.e. Fees that do not reflect Indian Central or State or Local Government Subsidies / Grants. Cheers
Posted by: Peregrine Jan 3 2004, 05:02 PM
QUOTE (Mudy @ Jan 3 2004, 12:33 PM)
Why you are worried about trade etc. Pakistan will never change "Kutaye ki puanch kbhi sidhi nahi hotey". Paki army want to survive. They will start same game again, they are churning out Madarasa graduated.gif on daily basis. Same funny and sad story will start again. This is popcorn time till SAARC. I am not worried. graduated.gif
Mudy, Lotastaan can only Export Terrorism, Talebaan and Textiles to India and we in India have no need for either of these Items. In addition to Textiles and Drugs the only other Industry in Lotastaan is the Military. As such Lotastaan will continue to have a heavily blotted Military whose upkeep expenses will not permit any further welfare projects for common people in terms of Health, Education and Job Creation Cheers
Posted by: rhytha Jan 3 2004, 06:08 PM
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